Nothing about the article indicates that the product comes with sleeves, just that the container is large enough to account for sleeves if you buy them.
So they're going to continue to tell us what to play by making the decks for us and selling them to us that way.
This is better?
This is another marketing fail. 'We need people to play standard! Let's make their decks for them and a new product to sell at the same time!'
Utter fail.
WotC is trying to do something to bring new players into the game, even if those reasons don't necessarily jive with the players desires.
Here's my solution.
1. Bring back promos for FNM but make them good (Fatal Push, Path to Exile) and/or give out the special 'standard showdown' packs at FNM. They NEED people to play FNM to keep the game going and bringing more people in. Stagnant decklists and FNM's that don't fire kill the game. I don't care if they give out Fatal push for 3 months, I'll be glad to get it each time.
2. Delete 'standard showdown' on the weekend and make that the 'new player' intro day.
3. Delete store championship and bring back Game Day. Game day is early in a set and promotes deck variety and creativity. Currently 'championship' is late in cycle and everything's worked out. Boring for everyone.
4. Give more player points for FNM participation and lead into special mail out promos for participants who gain particular point totals (or claim in store). Grinders get byes in big tournaments, give the little guys who play to play something for continual participation.
Starter Standard deck products are fine, but relying on them to revitalize standard is a fail. They need to understand how downtrodden the format is at the LGS level and not just 'lower participation' at GPs and big events. That's the trickle up from fewer people playing Standard. They are decimating the game.
At a time when they are releasing MORE products than ever before it shows how little they understand what they're doing expecting MORE product releases to fix things. Yes, improve the product! No, that's not all they need to do.
This is something I've wanted them to do for a long time. If they want standard to be Magic's premiere format that everyone should be playing while also being the format all new players should jump into, WOTC needs to provide a first step as well as a low barrier of entry for new players. I applaud them for actually trying ti give players real starter decks that will actually get them started in non-kitchen table magic. All that remains now is to see if these decks are actually FNM viable. If they are, I'll consider this a home run.
My only real problem is the price point. The duel decks cost $20 and contain two full decks, this contains one deck and a sideboard and costs almost twice as much. I guarantee the spindown did not add significantly onto the manufacturing cost of these decks and we all know that the deck box is going to be cardboard again. So I have to conclude that they have an inflated price due to WOTC wanting to keep standard card prices up.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
I for one welcome this. My sister in law and I have been hitting more FNMs because they're keeping it more casual nowadays, but Standard remains a wall because of rapid rotation and low energy. Being able to drop some cash on an immediately functional deck seems like a great way to get people to play and be on a somewhat even playing field, even though of course the local PTQ grinder shark is going to take 1st for the evening.
Of course, this all depends on decks. If the intro to these is Naya Dinosaurs, UB Cycling, RW Vehicles, and BG counters, I'll be pretty unimpressed.
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Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Creating Event/Challenger decks is very difficult. You have to predict the meta and the deck must be playable in it but not dominate it. In short, it is pretty much designed to be an average deck, in which you can just buy it on a whim and play. You must also not make it too attractive int terms of value, otherwise it will be inaccessible for beginners or casual players. I am not a beginner, but not everyone has the time to acquire the cards and test the deck.
I am not a Standard player so I will not buy this, but I sure see the need for such a product. Will it be good? Let's see. As I said, it is a very difficult product to create.
As for Duel Decks, I have played with a few, and they are quite fun to play, in terms of having a theme as well as the value you get (Especially the unique art foils). That being said I will not miss it as well.
I don't get the criticism of calling out Wizard's "failures". There is nothing wrong with trying products out and discontinuing them once the interest has waned.
I'm just curious, but when you saw the word "Challenger", were the first things that came to your mind, rockets and o-rings?
My first thought went to the Challenger Space Shuttle that blew up and ended up killing a bunch of people. For those who are younger or just haven't heard of it...
So yeah, this afternoon I got to hear that wizards cancelled duel decks and decided to make the next product have one of the most hilariously appropriate names I've seen in years. So they are going to try to make event decks again and their reasoning for why these are going to succeed is that they are making them closer to the release of the next set? Oh this is going to be priceless.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm just curious, but when you saw the word "Challenger", were the first things that came to your mind, rockets and o-rings?
Yes. I'm of the age that remembers it happening and watched it live.
The irony is real.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I don't get the criticism of calling out Wizard's "failures".
There you have it. It's been a slowly flushed (or straight up backed up) toilet of a last 2 years.
Sure, it's a hard product to create. Should we have this type of product? Yes. Name of new product 1 out of 10 (Challenger already linked) Target audience 5-6 out of 10 Sure new people getting something easy to start out with is good, but obviously the decks aren't going to be top 5 so could get crushed at FNM which is not so motivating. Giving people a way to learn how to CREATE standard decks is what they need. Maybe instead of forcing 'engaged players' to the weekend they leave FNM alone and give swag for 'engaged' players to bring in 'interested' players and help teach them to play and build.
Could be a decent product as long as people realize they'll have to tinker with them to make them better.
Someone said 'low energy' in reference to standard, hah! but they weren't being ironic.
Introducing the Challenger deck series, with 4 exciting Standard archetypes.
Glow over Chernobyl
Flames of the Hindenburg
Titanic Under the Seas
Hungering Flight 571
Coming to a store near you soon!!!
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
"Challenger Decks are your on-ramp to Standard. These four individual 75-card decks are geared toward Standard play for the Friday Night Magic player, and forged out of some of the most powerful strategies in Standard.
Each Challenger Deck comes with a complete 60-card main deck and a 15-card sideboard, and is intended to be playable and competitive at a local level right out of the box."
Isn't this exactly what they said about those trash Event Decks?
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I do not have high hopes for this product I for see afew senaros
a) Lets say wizards hits a home run and actually prints 4 T1 good playable (winnable) standard decks. This will crush their sales since single sales (and the huge amount of caess that are opened to fuel it) run wizards bottom line. Great for players horrable for wizards. I don't see this happening. They have reduced standard to $30 decks instead of CARDS for$30 each. this situation is unlikely
b) They print Okish stuff, It will be mined for the value cards basicly they put a $20-30 mythic in each deck and have the deck contain a bunch of common but low value staples (think uncommons) It will sell but basicly just sells for the singles.
c) they print garbage, This leads to the very simple no one will buy it and no one will do well in standard with it. basicly bad precons all over again. not good and product doomed for failure.
Feels...bad, but I guess it could be okay. I wanted to build a casual temur energy deck so if that's one of the precons I guess go ahead and sign me up.
The last duel deck is actually pretty good providing reprints of casual playable tribes as well as several modern playable cards for the merfolk deck. They are obviously discontinuing the product due to poor sales but I really wouldn't have expected it after this one. I guess they had some pretty bad ones recently and that's stuck in the mind of people.
Fingers crossed the final one does a similar job with elves and goes out with a bang. With an MSRP of $19.99 they don't exactly leave much room for reasonable reprints assuming each deck gets $10 of msrp devoted to it. Say $20 of value each deck? I hope that doesn't mean a bunch of naff tier 3 elves.
Aw, I'm gonna miss Duel Decks...well, there's always casual homebrew.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
"Challenger Decks are your on-ramp to Standard. These four individual 75-card decks are geared toward Standard play for the Friday Night Magic player, and forged out of some of the most powerful strategies in Standard.
Each Challenger Deck comes with a complete 60-card main deck and a 15-card sideboard, and is intended to be playable and competitive at a local level right out of the box."
Isn't this exactly what they said about those trash Event Decks?
Even if it wasn't, we already know they can never achieve what they are promising. Whatever they put together will get hampered by the dollar value limitations they've placed on themselves due to fear of speculators snapping up the boxes. I hate to break it to them, but those people they are labeling as speculators likely includes players who just recognize someone put a good card for once in a deck.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Imagine that WOTC made modern legal challenger decks based on themes and strategies from some of the old theme decks and intro packs from modern legal sets.
I remember Goblins vs Elves. A duel deck that was actually good. Shame it seems they never learned what made their first duel deck any good.
They seem to do this a lot with products lately, as soon as they seem to crack what the product is they then remove them. Clash Packs were great or good throughout their existence before they were removed (and were better than event decks), and now they have a decent DD with Goblins vs. Merfolk they want to take them out. Event Decks though started out amazing until they started worrying about the value in the decks and tried making the decks so bad that they couldn't even be played at FNM. I don't see them suddenly making these new Event Decks better just because the name is different.
As mediocre to bad as the latest like eight or ten sets have been, I don´t mind. But why couldn´t they just make good DD sets instead? The early ones were awesome and filled a function not covered by other products: a balanced, board game-like way to play magic. I wasn´t too concerned about the value either, but the play experience kept getting worse. Less interactive, more clunky. It was so sad to see them let something good turn to dirt because of a poor effort. Oh well, I guess I have enough of them to keep around.
My hopes are not too high for the Challenger sets. I remember the time I actually tried to take an Event Deck to FNM because I didn´t have a Standard deck at that time. Even after a 10-15 card upgrade, my deck was so far from FNM viability that I looked like a complete fool, it was actually embarrasing. And when taking the deck apart immediately afterwards, it had absolutely no trade binder value. At $30 these new ones will have to be a lot better, and I mean a lot.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
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Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Here's my solution.
1. Bring back promos for FNM but make them good (Fatal Push, Path to Exile) and/or give out the special 'standard showdown' packs at FNM. They NEED people to play FNM to keep the game going and bringing more people in. Stagnant decklists and FNM's that don't fire kill the game. I don't care if they give out Fatal push for 3 months, I'll be glad to get it each time.
2. Delete 'standard showdown' on the weekend and make that the 'new player' intro day.
3. Delete store championship and bring back Game Day. Game day is early in a set and promotes deck variety and creativity. Currently 'championship' is late in cycle and everything's worked out. Boring for everyone.
4. Give more player points for FNM participation and lead into special mail out promos for participants who gain particular point totals (or claim in store). Grinders get byes in big tournaments, give the little guys who play to play something for continual participation.
Starter Standard deck products are fine, but relying on them to revitalize standard is a fail. They need to understand how downtrodden the format is at the LGS level and not just 'lower participation' at GPs and big events. That's the trickle up from fewer people playing Standard. They are decimating the game.
At a time when they are releasing MORE products than ever before it shows how little they understand what they're doing expecting MORE product releases to fix things. Yes, improve the product! No, that's not all they need to do.
Wizards CEO: "Raise the price."
Bob from Accounting: "Well we already did that and they are still selling terribly."
Wizards CEO: "Well we can always stop making them and make a new set of decks."
Bob from Accounting: "Shouldn't we just keep tweaking the duel decks so they are more worthwhile?"
Wizards CEO: "Bob..."
Bob from Accounting: "Yes?"
Wizards CEO: "You're fired!"
My only real problem is the price point. The duel decks cost $20 and contain two full decks, this contains one deck and a sideboard and costs almost twice as much. I guarantee the spindown did not add significantly onto the manufacturing cost of these decks and we all know that the deck box is going to be cardboard again. So I have to conclude that they have an inflated price due to WOTC wanting to keep standard card prices up.
-Chandra Nalaar
I swear Rudy from Alpha Investments said this...
Whether or not that was the case though, I still loved this.
Edgar Markov - Bloodied Fangs
Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca - Jade Daggers
Narset, Enlightened Master - Monk Mastery
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - Necromancy love
At least Event decks are back, I had a lot of fun playing with some of these.
Of course, this all depends on decks. If the intro to these is Naya Dinosaurs, UB Cycling, RW Vehicles, and BG counters, I'll be pretty unimpressed.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I am not a Standard player so I will not buy this, but I sure see the need for such a product. Will it be good? Let's see. As I said, it is a very difficult product to create.
As for Duel Decks, I have played with a few, and they are quite fun to play, in terms of having a theme as well as the value you get (Especially the unique art foils). That being said I will not miss it as well.
I don't get the criticism of calling out Wizard's "failures". There is nothing wrong with trying products out and discontinuing them once the interest has waned.
My first thought went to the Challenger Space Shuttle that blew up and ended up killing a bunch of people. For those who are younger or just haven't heard of it...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disaster
So yeah, this afternoon I got to hear that wizards cancelled duel decks and decided to make the next product have one of the most hilariously appropriate names I've seen in years. So they are going to try to make event decks again and their reasoning for why these are going to succeed is that they are making them closer to the release of the next set? Oh this is going to be priceless.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yes. I'm of the age that remembers it happening and watched it live.
The irony is real.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
There you have it. It's been a slowly flushed (or straight up backed up) toilet of a last 2 years.
Sure, it's a hard product to create. Should we have this type of product? Yes.
Name of new product 1 out of 10 (Challenger already linked)
Target audience 5-6 out of 10 Sure new people getting something easy to start out with is good, but obviously the decks aren't going to be top 5 so could get crushed at FNM which is not so motivating. Giving people a way to learn how to CREATE standard decks is what they need. Maybe instead of forcing 'engaged players' to the weekend they leave FNM alone and give swag for 'engaged' players to bring in 'interested' players and help teach them to play and build.
Could be a decent product as long as people realize they'll have to tinker with them to make them better.
Someone said 'low energy' in reference to standard, hah! but they weren't being ironic.
Glow over Chernobyl
Flames of the Hindenburg
Titanic Under the Seas
Hungering Flight 571
Coming to a store near you soon!!!
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Each Challenger Deck comes with a complete 60-card main deck and a 15-card sideboard, and is intended to be playable and competitive at a local level right out of the box."
Isn't this exactly what they said about those trash Event Decks?
a) Lets say wizards hits a home run and actually prints 4 T1 good playable (winnable) standard decks. This will crush their sales since single sales (and the huge amount of caess that are opened to fuel it) run wizards bottom line. Great for players horrable for wizards. I don't see this happening. They have reduced standard to $30 decks instead of CARDS for$30 each. this situation is unlikely
b) They print Okish stuff, It will be mined for the value cards basicly they put a $20-30 mythic in each deck and have the deck contain a bunch of common but low value staples (think uncommons) It will sell but basicly just sells for the singles.
c) they print garbage, This leads to the very simple no one will buy it and no one will do well in standard with it. basicly bad precons all over again. not good and product doomed for failure.
Fingers crossed the final one does a similar job with elves and goes out with a bang. With an MSRP of $19.99 they don't exactly leave much room for reasonable reprints assuming each deck gets $10 of msrp devoted to it. Say $20 of value each deck? I hope that doesn't mean a bunch of naff tier 3 elves.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Even if it wasn't, we already know they can never achieve what they are promising. Whatever they put together will get hampered by the dollar value limitations they've placed on themselves due to fear of speculators snapping up the boxes. I hate to break it to them, but those people they are labeling as speculators likely includes players who just recognize someone put a good card for once in a deck.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Bait and Bludgeon (Affinity)
Rat's Nest (Rat tribal)
Golgari Deathcreep (Dredge)
Sliver Evolution (Slivers)
They seem to do this a lot with products lately, as soon as they seem to crack what the product is they then remove them. Clash Packs were great or good throughout their existence before they were removed (and were better than event decks), and now they have a decent DD with Goblins vs. Merfolk they want to take them out. Event Decks though started out amazing until they started worrying about the value in the decks and tried making the decks so bad that they couldn't even be played at FNM. I don't see them suddenly making these new Event Decks better just because the name is different.
But supposed they did this, it would made Standard alot more affordable. For casuals, this is possibly the best news whenever a set comes out.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
My hopes are not too high for the Challenger sets. I remember the time I actually tried to take an Event Deck to FNM because I didn´t have a Standard deck at that time. Even after a 10-15 card upgrade, my deck was so far from FNM viability that I looked like a complete fool, it was actually embarrasing. And when taking the deck apart immediately afterwards, it had absolutely no trade binder value. At $30 these new ones will have to be a lot better, and I mean a lot.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'