Your analysis is spot on. I was simply hoping there was a way, though I don't believe it either.
Standard is dying. They aren't fixing it and releasing crap boxed products and generic Core sets is not the solution. Better design is. Hey Maro! Go read Craig Wescoe's recent article. You could learn something.
Your analysis is spot on. I was simply hoping there was a way, though I don't believe it either.
Standard is dying. They aren't fixing it and releasing crap boxed products and generic Core sets is not the solution. Better design is. Hey Maro! Go read Craig Wescoe's recent article. You could learn something.
Like you I hope I'm wrong. I'll check that article out too, thanks.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Warmachine something else I should mention, these structure decks are explicitly meant for franchised players. Or player who left the hobby and seeking to come back. So selling them with the understanding of needing to buy 2-3 of them is something far more acceptable. Also their is a huge difference, in buy 2-3 12 dollar decks and 2 30 dollar decks. Espacially when in the 12 dollar decks even the chaff cards can be quite helpful
Most are worth north of 150 bucks and many in the 200 to 300 dollar range. They are going to have to pull a lot of punches to get this down to a $30 deck. These decks are going to be nerfed/neutered hard, I don't care what they are claiming. I hope I'm wrong, but I bet I'm right.
Yup - this is what I'm wondering as well. If they truly didn't pull the punches and put chase rares/mythics in then the decks will sell well above MSRP and this will wind up keeping them out of the hands of their target audience (new players)
OTOH the additional printings of these cards will drive the prices down a little as well, and ensure the decks sell out. This could be a 'win' for wizards since they care a little less about the chase rares in older sets than they do in their new set (Dominaria, in this case)
EDIT: Sorry - I missed that this thread went on to page 7 - what I said here has pretty much already been covered on this page.
Warmachine something else I should mention, these structure decks are explicitly meant for franchised players. Or player who left the hobby and seeking to come back. So selling them with the understanding of needing to buy 2-3 of them is something far more acceptable. Also their is a huge difference, in buy 2-3 12 dollar decks and 2 30 dollar decks. Espacially when in the 12 dollar decks even the chaff cards can be quite helpful
I like your idea in theory. My problem is that in function I don't think it would work that way. 12 dollars of chaff cards are just that, 12 dollars of cards that have no monetary value because they have no play value as well. I could have bought 4 alike Intro Decks from any set in the last decade, combined the best cards, and still would have had a crappy Standard deck. You, me or anyone else would probably be hard pressed to design a 12 dollar Intro deck that would be viable at FNM or a small Standard Constructed Event when combined with a 2nd or 3rd deck of the same. They would more than likely all have to be mono colored. Money comes in the form of lands many a time. That 12 bucks could be eaten up by just 2 lands. Again I like the idea in theory. But I think Wizards would have to print better chaff for this to work in practice. I see no sign of them doing this. If you have the time pitch me a deck idea from Standard, 60 cards, $12 of value and we can break it down or see if its even viable. If not, its okay, it would be time intensive.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I don't see the problem. Just release the first wave, let the Speculators buy them, and then DROWN them in Challenger Decks. Do that with every release of these until they have been burned often enough they don't even try it anymore. Granted, the first time some players might get burned by bying them overpriced after they have been bought out, but the second time around everyone should have learned. And even then it will probably still be cheaper to buy the overpriced deck than bying the singles. LGS get to sell A LOT of this product, FNM attendance goes up, affordable standard - not really good for box sales, but you know what isn't either? A dying or dead standard.
Yup - that's exactly what I was thinking in my second paragraph that you quoted (the one starting with OTOH.) You laid out in full what I merely suggested - but that's exactly the line of thinking I took when I made that comment. And, like I said, the 'box sales' that drop you mention will basically be the older product anyway. So, for example, next year's decks might include stuff from KLD/AKH and be light on XLN rares and nothing from Dominaria. Wizards cares less about those boxes (I'm not exactly sure when the print runs end.)
Chase rares drop in price, speculators and price fixers lose and players win. Stores might balance out or lose, depending on how much of their margin is made on singles. I think smaller stores would win but bigger stores would lose.
I'm not sure I'm a fan of the strategy outlined above. I am for getting cards in the hands of players at a reasonable price, don't get me wrong. But burning people, stores or companies to "teach them a lesson" isn't a good long term strategy.
The best bet would just be to flood the market with them at the outset. Let everyone who wants them have a shot at buying them, and then let the secondary market deal with pricing. I'm no expert but even this method would have effects. These changes don't occur in a vacuum. Wizards doesn't want to waste money overprinting product either. They don't get money when distributors turn down buying it from them. Its the middlemen that screw it up for us players/collectors a lot of the time. Too bad we can't buy direct from Wizards. But they could avoid it if the product was value packed and looked like a hit. I just don't see that happening. They aren't going to rock the boat when they are sailing high on oceans of cash. Again, I hope I'm wrong. Here's to hoping it works out well for us.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Warmachine something else I should mention, these structure decks are explicitly meant for franchised players. Or player who left the hobby and seeking to come back. So selling them with the understanding of needing to buy 2-3 of them is something far more acceptable. Also their is a huge difference, in buy 2-3 12 dollar decks and 2 30 dollar decks. Espacially when in the 12 dollar decks even the chaff cards can be quite helpful
I like your idea in theory. My problem is that in function I don't think it would work that way. 12 dollars of chaff cards are just that, 12 dollars of cards that have no monetary value because they have no play value as well. I could have bought 4 alike Intro Decks from any set in the last decade, combined the best cards, and still would have had a crappy Standard deck. You, me or anyone else would probably be hard pressed to design a 12 dollar Intro deck that would be viable at FNM or a small Standard Constructed Event when combined with a 2nd or 3rd deck of the same. They would more than likely all have to be mono colored. Money comes in the form of lands many a time. That 12 bucks could be eaten up by just 2 lands. Again I like the idea in theory. But I think Wizards would have to print better chaff for this to work in practice. I see no sign of them doing this. If you have the time pitch me a deck idea from Standard, 60 cards, $12 of value and we can break it down or see if its even viable. If not, its okay, it would be time intensive.
It is when those chaff cards are things like lighting strike, fatal push, aether hub, check lands and that years mana dork etc. Yugioh ‘Chaff’ Cards are generic, playable cards that are usable in every deck. Which is why those 12 dollar structure decks are viable and able to be used if you bought 2-3 of them.
And for those who complain about speculators, sell them at big box stores and give them a unique set symbol.
Most are worth north of 150 bucks and many in the 200 to 300 dollar range. They are going to have to pull a lot of punches to get this down to a $30 deck. These decks are going to be nerfed/neutered hard, I don't care what they are claiming. I hope I'm wrong, but I bet I'm right.
Yup - this is what I'm wondering as well. If they truly didn't pull the punches and put chase rares/mythics in then the decks will sell well above MSRP and this will wind up keeping them out of the hands of their target audience (new players)
OTOH the additional printings of these cards will drive the prices down a little as well, and ensure the decks sell out. This could be a 'win' for wizards since they care a little less about the chase rares in older sets than they do in their new set (Dominaria, in this case)
EDIT: Sorry - I missed that this thread went on to page 7 - what I said here has pretty much already been covered on this page.
I don't see the problem. Just release the first wave, let the Speculators buy them, and then DROWN them in Challenger Decks. Do that with every release of these until they have been burned often enough they don't even try it anymore. Granted, the first time some players might get burned by bying them overpriced after they have been bought out, but the second time around everyone should have learned. And even then it will probably still be cheaper to buy the overpriced deck than bying the singles. LGS get to sell A LOT of this product, FNM attendance goes up, affordable standard - not really good for box sales, but you know what isn't either? A dying or dead standard.
This would be the best solution for pushing/keeping the price down, anything else would encourage hoarding/price gorging by stores and speculators. It would also destroy the value of the cards as well, but that is kinda the point
Warmachine something else I should mention, these structure decks are explicitly meant for franchised players. Or player who left the hobby and seeking to come back. So selling them with the understanding of needing to buy 2-3 of them is something far more acceptable. Also their is a huge difference, in buy 2-3 12 dollar decks and 2 30 dollar decks. Espacially when in the 12 dollar decks even the chaff cards can be quite helpful
I like your idea in theory. My problem is that in function I don't think it would work that way. 12 dollars of chaff cards are just that, 12 dollars of cards that have no monetary value because they have no play value as well. I could have bought 4 alike Intro Decks from any set in the last decade, combined the best cards, and still would have had a crappy Standard deck. You, me or anyone else would probably be hard pressed to design a 12 dollar Intro deck that would be viable at FNM or a small Standard Constructed Event when combined with a 2nd or 3rd deck of the same. They would more than likely all have to be mono colored. Money comes in the form of lands many a time. That 12 bucks could be eaten up by just 2 lands. Again I like the idea in theory. But I think Wizards would have to print better chaff for this to work in practice. I see no sign of them doing this. If you have the time pitch me a deck idea from Standard, 60 cards, $12 of value and we can break it down or see if its even viable. If not, its okay, it would be time intensive.
It is when those chaff cards are things like lighting strike, fatal push, aether hub, check lands and that years mana dork etc. Yugioh ‘Chaff’ Cards are generic, playable cards that are usable in every deck. Which is why those 12 dollar structure decks are viable and able to be used if you bought 2-3 of them.
And for those who complain about speculators, sell them at big box stores and give them a unique set symbol.
Just to point it out from your example. Push is 7 bucks, Hub a buck fifty and check lands between 3.50 and 9 bucks. Just 3 of those cards would eat up the 12 dollar value, not leaving a lot of room for the other 72 cards in the 12 dollar deck. And if Wizards puts 60 to 100 dollars worth of cards in a 30 buck deck, the results aren't going to be to anyone's liking other than the gougers. Again, I like your idea. I'm good with them being sold at box stores as well. I just don't think its viable as is. I think they may be able to pull it off if it offers value of somewhere in the 50 dollar range for a 30 dollar MSRP. Anything more than that and it won't end up in the hands of the intended audience. Which of course means this will work out the exact same way as the original Event Decks and nothing will change.
This would be the best solution for pushing/keeping the price down, anything else would encourage hoarding/price gorging by stores and speculators. It would also destroy the value of the cards as well, but that is kinda the point Smile
Remember this is a "collectible" card game, not just a card game. Destroy or devalue the price of certain cards enough and it will have a negative impact on the game and hobby itself. Print everything into infinity and watch the player base vanish overnight. I'm no company shill either. Wizards is cocking up a lot of stuff recently. I'd like them to find a nice balance that helps everyone involved, not just their shareholders. Its a tall order. We will see if they are up to it.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I am just explaining how Yugioh Structure Decks work. Which like it or not, but YGO has sold more cards than MtG has. And is in a overall healthier situation than MtG, but that is a tangent and unrelated to the thread itself.
My point is that when folks are comparing YGO Structure Decks to MtG decks like Challenger or Duel Decks. The reason YGO Structure Deck works are percisely because 2-3 of them are a fully competitive deck. And often stuffed with value.
However these cards are also cheaper on the secondary market. Espacially around initial release. While their is a dramatic price job generally. Pot of Desires original printing worth 10 (down from 50) compared to its megatin version worth 1-3. So the original card generally maintains its price over the reprint
I'm not sure I'm a fan of the strategy outlined above. I am for getting cards in the hands of players at a reasonable price, don't get me wrong. But burning people, stores or companies to "teach them a lesson" isn't a good long term strategy.
While we shouldn't expect $100 of stuff in this $30 product, but we have to expect more from these decks, if what they say is true and this doesn't pull any punches, and if collectors and hoarders take a hit from this then all the better. The last five years we've seen far more products catering to their types than things made for the average player (FTV, Masters, Anthologies, etc). WotC can't continue making product that isn't even worth the price you pay for it, like past Duel Decks or Event Decks (or the recent board game products), we need a product that's actually worth buying if they want this "new" product to succeed.
Remember this is a "collectible" card game, not just a card game. Destroy or devalue the price of certain cards enough and it will have a negative impact on the game and hobby itself. Print everything into infinity and watch the player base vanish overnight. I'm no company shill either. Wizards is cocking up a lot of stuff recently. I'd like them to find a nice balance that helps everyone involved, not just their shareholders. Its a tall order. We will see if they are up to it.
Which brings to mind another reason they might be doing this - the current political climate over Loot Boxes. There has been a huge uproar over Loot Boxes in Star Wars Battlefront II which has become major enough that governments all over the world are looking into regulating it. Most of the reasons around it are that loot boxes are effectively (even though not actually under the law) gambling, since you are paying money and not knowing what you are getting in advance - a model that is exactly the same as in TCGs.
It is entirely possible that Wizard's knows which way the wind is blowing on this and is already looking at distancing themselves from the randomized packs model simply because they will have to if any kind of legislation like this passes in any country.
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I'm not sure I'm a fan of the strategy outlined above. I am for getting cards in the hands of players at a reasonable price, don't get me wrong. But burning people, stores or companies to "teach them a lesson" isn't a good long term strategy.
While we shouldn't expect $100 of stuff in this $30 product, but we have to expect more from these decks, if what they say is true and this doesn't pull any punches, and if collectors and hoarders take a hit from this then all the better. The last five years we've seen far more products catering to their types than things made for the average player (FTV, Masters, Anthologies, etc). WotC can't continue making product that isn't even worth the price you pay for it, like past Duel Decks or Event Decks (or the recent board game products), we need a product that's actually worth buying if they want this "new" product to succeed.
Remember this is a "collectible" card game, not just a card game. Destroy or devalue the price of certain cards enough and it will have a negative impact on the game and hobby itself. Print everything into infinity and watch the player base vanish overnight. I'm no company shill either. Wizards is cocking up a lot of stuff recently. I'd like them to find a nice balance that helps everyone involved, not just their shareholders. Its a tall order. We will see if they are up to it.
Which brings to mind another reason they might be doing this - the current political climate over Loot Boxes. There has been a huge uproar over Loot Boxes in Star Wars Battlefront II which has become major enough that governments all over the world are looking into regulating it. Most of the reasons around it are that loot boxes are effectively (even though not actually under the law) gambling, since you are paying money and not knowing what you are getting in advance - a model that is exactly the same as in TCGs.
It is entirely possible that Wizard's knows which way the wind is blowing on this and is already looking at distancing themselves from the randomized packs model simply because they will have to if any kind of legislation like this passes in any country.
@Dontrike: I fully agree. We should expect more. But those expectations shouldn't be unrealistic. Read my posts, I've said getting in the 50 dollar range of cards for 30 bucks would probably be the sweet spot. Getting more than you paid for but not enough to encourage the flippers/gougers/speculators to buy them out or LGS owners to sit on them/mark them up/break them up for singles sales. There is a tipping point and the challenge is for Wizards to find it. Their quote on "not pulling many punches" is a load of horse manure. Dumb statements like that need to be regulated. Just look what its done in this thread. We have people envisioning more than 100 dollars worth of cards in a 30 dollar box. Ain't gonna happen. My advice, expect the usual from WotC/Hasbro and be surprised if they surpass expectations.
@GW2Guru: I don't think they need to worry about it. The trading card industry has been around for a long time offering randomized packs of cards back to the turn of the 20th century. They are still around. Its not true gambling from the fact you actually do get something physical for what you paid for. I know Canada seems to be more liberal on these matters, I don't see it flying here in the US any time soon. I didn't like buying packs of Baseball cards in the 70's and 80's and getting the scrubs when I saw others getting the All Stars. It was feel bad then. Its feel bad now as well. But that is the nature of a collectible set of any card. If you want certainty, play Monopoly, everyone gets the same pieces. At the same time that doesn't mean a company can abuse that desire for the in demand cards by leaving them out. Its a fine line. And I agree WotC/Hasbro needs to do a much better job at it.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
They usually put around 150% in value in non-introductory-level constructed products ... based on card values before that product lands. Unfortunately the existence of that product tanks the value of its included singles ... and short of short printing themselves, that’s unavoidable. If it held at 150% people would buy, strip, sell, and undercut one another until the price of its component parts came down.
It’s an impossible dilemma. The existence of the product guarantees its contents can’t hold value, but people are demanding a product that can miraculously hold value - a set that is simultaneously valuable and not.
@GW2Guru: I don't think they need to worry about it. The trading card industry has been around for a long time offering randomized packs of cards back to the turn of the 20th century.
Actually there are quite a few US politicians that have weighed in on regulating Loot Boxes, and several in the UK and some parts of Europe (Canada hasn't made a statement either way.) While these concerns are mostly for online games - the fact remains that Trading Cards use the same model. Also since Wizards has a digital offering as well it could easily be effected - depending on exactly how whatever laws are written.
I work in the online gaming industry - so I'm very aware of the current political climate on this, and what worries me is that every argument levied against Loot Boxes ALSO applies the exact same way to TCGs.
Quote from thatmarkguy »
It’s an impossible dilemma. The existence of the product guarantees its contents can’t hold value, but people are demanding a product that can miraculously hold value - a set that is simultaneously valuable and not.
Exactly, which is why I said above they can easily not pull any punches and print rares from KLD and AKH that they care less about moving product for - lowering the price of Standard. I think 150% value at the time of printing is about accurate from what I've seen in the past - so we are looking at a ~45$ deck by today's prices, which is plenty for a couple of good lands.
Actually there are quite a few US politicians that have weighed in on regulating Loot Boxes, and several in the UK and some parts of Europe (Canada hasn't made a statement either way.) While these concerns are mostly for online games - the fact remains that Trading Cards use the same model. Also since Wizards has a digital offering as well it could easily be effected - depending on exactly how whatever laws are written.
I work in the online gaming industry - so I'm very aware of the current political climate on this, and what worries me is that every argument levied against Loot Boxes ALSO applies the exact same way to TCGs.
And the feds only really want in on it so they can regulate/tax them to prop up their own beuracracy/power. If WotC/Hasbro doesn't kill the game, government will finish it off for sure. I think the paper market will be safe. It is a tangible "real" good. Online on the other hand had better watch out. I don't play MTGO and have no money "invested" in it at all. If could go poof tomorrow and all that money would be gone. In paper at least I have something to show for it even if it may be "worthless", its still a physical good.
Back to the Challenger decks. 150% value will end up with the same results as before, the product will fail again and the whole process will be repeated. Their only shot would be to print the tar out of a 200% value set, offer it everywhere and hope it settles into a 125 to 150% long term value.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
@Dontrike: I fully agree. We should expect more. But those expectations shouldn't be unrealistic. Read my posts, I've said getting in the 50 dollar range of cards for 30 bucks would probably be the sweet spot. Getting more than you paid for but not enough to encourage the flippers/gougers/speculators to buy them out or LGS owners to sit on them/mark them up/break them up for singles sales. There is a tipping point and the challenge is for Wizards to find it. Their quote on "not pulling many punches" is a load of horse manure. Dumb statements like that need to be regulated. Just look what its done in this thread. We have people envisioning more than 100 dollars worth of cards in a 30 dollar box. Ain't gonna happen. My advice, expect the usual from WotC/Hasbro and be surprised if they surpass expectations.
I fully agree that those expecting $100+ in this product are complete bonkers. Best we can hope for is $50 but $40 is probably where they'll play it safe, if they even get that high. If anything we'll get one deck with $40+ in it and the others have like $22-$33. I will also agree that the "didn't pull any punches" line is just hyping people up that are either too gullible or really need their hope that this is going to be amazing. Doing that is just asking for people to shout "Not what you promised!" at them thanks to that line.
I'm sure the same thing will happen with these decks that happened with Event Decks. One is awesome, or as close to it, as possible while the other(s) sit on shelves, then they start to reduce the amount of them (this of course assuming there are four each time these come out) until we have one left and they remove them. Then we get the newly named Clash Packs, or whatever else they'll call them, in the hopes of changing it up, but in the end they'll remove them and then the cycle shall repeat.
Frankly, my hope is that we get a Modern Event/Challenge Deck out of this. It was disappointing they only did one of those. They should have tried at least 3-5 times to see if it could work. Even for the $75 price tag it had it had like $110 worth of cards in it and the deck was decent enough for what it was.
That one Modern Event Deck is a shining example of what happens if they stunt supply of a rare by printing it 4x in a precon. Even in a $75 product, the flood of Windbrisk Heights dropped the cost to own a playset from over $30 to under $5. If a card can lose some 80% of value from being in an unaffordable precon product, just imagine what’d happen if they put multiple copies of a good standard rare in a set priced to sell at Walmart?
That one Modern Event Deck is a shining example of what happens if they stunt supply of a rare by printing it 4x in a precon. Even in a $75 product, the flood of Windbrisk Heights dropped the cost to own a playset from over $30 to under $5. If a card can lose some 80% of value from being in an unaffordable precon product, just imagine what’d happen if they put multiple copies of a good standard rare in a set priced to sell at Walmart?
That's exactly the effect I was talking about. I'm nervcited to see what 'We didn't pull any punches' really means in Wizard-land.
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That one Modern Event Deck is a shining example of what happens if they stunt supply of a rare by printing it 4x in a precon. Even in a $75 product, the flood of Windbrisk Heights dropped the cost to own a playset from over $30 to under $5. If a card can lose some 80% of value from being in an unaffordable precon product, just imagine what’d happen if they put multiple copies of a good standard rare in a set priced to sell at Walmart?
That's exactly the effect I was talking about. I'm nervcited to see what 'We didn't pull any punches' really means in Wizard-land.
4 copies of Savage Punch in every Challenger deck.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Standard is dying. They aren't fixing it and releasing crap boxed products and generic Core sets is not the solution. Better design is. Hey Maro! Go read Craig Wescoe's recent article. You could learn something.
Sorry, I don't know how to quote. Had to point this out though. That article has nothing to do with what Maro does. Efficiency is a development thing, not a design thing.
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Standard is dying. They aren't fixing it and releasing crap boxed products and generic Core sets is not the solution. Better design is. Hey Maro! Go read Craig Wescoe's recent article. You could learn something.
Like you I hope I'm wrong. I'll check that article out too, thanks.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
What we disagree with is picking up ones of these underpowered decks and getting eaten alive at FNM.
Yup - this is what I'm wondering as well. If they truly didn't pull the punches and put chase rares/mythics in then the decks will sell well above MSRP and this will wind up keeping them out of the hands of their target audience (new players)
OTOH the additional printings of these cards will drive the prices down a little as well, and ensure the decks sell out. This could be a 'win' for wizards since they care a little less about the chase rares in older sets than they do in their new set (Dominaria, in this case)
EDIT: Sorry - I missed that this thread went on to page 7 - what I said here has pretty much already been covered on this page.
I like your idea in theory. My problem is that in function I don't think it would work that way. 12 dollars of chaff cards are just that, 12 dollars of cards that have no monetary value because they have no play value as well. I could have bought 4 alike Intro Decks from any set in the last decade, combined the best cards, and still would have had a crappy Standard deck. You, me or anyone else would probably be hard pressed to design a 12 dollar Intro deck that would be viable at FNM or a small Standard Constructed Event when combined with a 2nd or 3rd deck of the same. They would more than likely all have to be mono colored. Money comes in the form of lands many a time. That 12 bucks could be eaten up by just 2 lands. Again I like the idea in theory. But I think Wizards would have to print better chaff for this to work in practice. I see no sign of them doing this. If you have the time pitch me a deck idea from Standard, 60 cards, $12 of value and we can break it down or see if its even viable. If not, its okay, it would be time intensive.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Yup - that's exactly what I was thinking in my second paragraph that you quoted (the one starting with OTOH.) You laid out in full what I merely suggested - but that's exactly the line of thinking I took when I made that comment. And, like I said, the 'box sales' that drop you mention will basically be the older product anyway. So, for example, next year's decks might include stuff from KLD/AKH and be light on XLN rares and nothing from Dominaria. Wizards cares less about those boxes (I'm not exactly sure when the print runs end.)
Chase rares drop in price, speculators and price fixers lose and players win. Stores might balance out or lose, depending on how much of their margin is made on singles. I think smaller stores would win but bigger stores would lose.
The best bet would just be to flood the market with them at the outset. Let everyone who wants them have a shot at buying them, and then let the secondary market deal with pricing. I'm no expert but even this method would have effects. These changes don't occur in a vacuum. Wizards doesn't want to waste money overprinting product either. They don't get money when distributors turn down buying it from them. Its the middlemen that screw it up for us players/collectors a lot of the time. Too bad we can't buy direct from Wizards. But they could avoid it if the product was value packed and looked like a hit. I just don't see that happening. They aren't going to rock the boat when they are sailing high on oceans of cash. Again, I hope I'm wrong. Here's to hoping it works out well for us.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
It is when those chaff cards are things like lighting strike, fatal push, aether hub, check lands and that years mana dork etc. Yugioh ‘Chaff’ Cards are generic, playable cards that are usable in every deck. Which is why those 12 dollar structure decks are viable and able to be used if you bought 2-3 of them.
And for those who complain about speculators, sell them at big box stores and give them a unique set symbol.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
This would be the best solution for pushing/keeping the price down, anything else would encourage hoarding/price gorging by stores and speculators. It would also destroy the value of the cards as well, but that is kinda the point
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Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Just to point it out from your example. Push is 7 bucks, Hub a buck fifty and check lands between 3.50 and 9 bucks. Just 3 of those cards would eat up the 12 dollar value, not leaving a lot of room for the other 72 cards in the 12 dollar deck. And if Wizards puts 60 to 100 dollars worth of cards in a 30 buck deck, the results aren't going to be to anyone's liking other than the gougers. Again, I like your idea. I'm good with them being sold at box stores as well. I just don't think its viable as is. I think they may be able to pull it off if it offers value of somewhere in the 50 dollar range for a 30 dollar MSRP. Anything more than that and it won't end up in the hands of the intended audience. Which of course means this will work out the exact same way as the original Event Decks and nothing will change.
Remember this is a "collectible" card game, not just a card game. Destroy or devalue the price of certain cards enough and it will have a negative impact on the game and hobby itself. Print everything into infinity and watch the player base vanish overnight. I'm no company shill either. Wizards is cocking up a lot of stuff recently. I'd like them to find a nice balance that helps everyone involved, not just their shareholders. Its a tall order. We will see if they are up to it.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
My point is that when folks are comparing YGO Structure Decks to MtG decks like Challenger or Duel Decks. The reason YGO Structure Deck works are percisely because 2-3 of them are a fully competitive deck. And often stuffed with value.
However these cards are also cheaper on the secondary market. Espacially around initial release. While their is a dramatic price job generally. Pot of Desires original printing worth 10 (down from 50) compared to its megatin version worth 1-3. So the original card generally maintains its price over the reprint
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
While we shouldn't expect $100 of stuff in this $30 product, but we have to expect more from these decks, if what they say is true and this doesn't pull any punches, and if collectors and hoarders take a hit from this then all the better. The last five years we've seen far more products catering to their types than things made for the average player (FTV, Masters, Anthologies, etc). WotC can't continue making product that isn't even worth the price you pay for it, like past Duel Decks or Event Decks (or the recent board game products), we need a product that's actually worth buying if they want this "new" product to succeed.
Which brings to mind another reason they might be doing this - the current political climate over Loot Boxes. There has been a huge uproar over Loot Boxes in Star Wars Battlefront II which has become major enough that governments all over the world are looking into regulating it. Most of the reasons around it are that loot boxes are effectively (even though not actually under the law) gambling, since you are paying money and not knowing what you are getting in advance - a model that is exactly the same as in TCGs.
It is entirely possible that Wizard's knows which way the wind is blowing on this and is already looking at distancing themselves from the randomized packs model simply because they will have to if any kind of legislation like this passes in any country.
@Dontrike: I fully agree. We should expect more. But those expectations shouldn't be unrealistic. Read my posts, I've said getting in the 50 dollar range of cards for 30 bucks would probably be the sweet spot. Getting more than you paid for but not enough to encourage the flippers/gougers/speculators to buy them out or LGS owners to sit on them/mark them up/break them up for singles sales. There is a tipping point and the challenge is for Wizards to find it. Their quote on "not pulling many punches" is a load of horse manure. Dumb statements like that need to be regulated. Just look what its done in this thread. We have people envisioning more than 100 dollars worth of cards in a 30 dollar box. Ain't gonna happen. My advice, expect the usual from WotC/Hasbro and be surprised if they surpass expectations.
@GW2Guru: I don't think they need to worry about it. The trading card industry has been around for a long time offering randomized packs of cards back to the turn of the 20th century. They are still around. Its not true gambling from the fact you actually do get something physical for what you paid for. I know Canada seems to be more liberal on these matters, I don't see it flying here in the US any time soon. I didn't like buying packs of Baseball cards in the 70's and 80's and getting the scrubs when I saw others getting the All Stars. It was feel bad then. Its feel bad now as well. But that is the nature of a collectible set of any card. If you want certainty, play Monopoly, everyone gets the same pieces. At the same time that doesn't mean a company can abuse that desire for the in demand cards by leaving them out. Its a fine line. And I agree WotC/Hasbro needs to do a much better job at it.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
It’s an impossible dilemma. The existence of the product guarantees its contents can’t hold value, but people are demanding a product that can miraculously hold value - a set that is simultaneously valuable and not.
Actually there are quite a few US politicians that have weighed in on regulating Loot Boxes, and several in the UK and some parts of Europe (Canada hasn't made a statement either way.) While these concerns are mostly for online games - the fact remains that Trading Cards use the same model. Also since Wizards has a digital offering as well it could easily be effected - depending on exactly how whatever laws are written.
I work in the online gaming industry - so I'm very aware of the current political climate on this, and what worries me is that every argument levied against Loot Boxes ALSO applies the exact same way to TCGs.
Exactly, which is why I said above they can easily not pull any punches and print rares from KLD and AKH that they care less about moving product for - lowering the price of Standard. I think 150% value at the time of printing is about accurate from what I've seen in the past - so we are looking at a ~45$ deck by today's prices, which is plenty for a couple of good lands.
And the feds only really want in on it so they can regulate/tax them to prop up their own beuracracy/power. If WotC/Hasbro doesn't kill the game, government will finish it off for sure. I think the paper market will be safe. It is a tangible "real" good. Online on the other hand had better watch out. I don't play MTGO and have no money "invested" in it at all. If could go poof tomorrow and all that money would be gone. In paper at least I have something to show for it even if it may be "worthless", its still a physical good.
Back to the Challenger decks. 150% value will end up with the same results as before, the product will fail again and the whole process will be repeated. Their only shot would be to print the tar out of a 200% value set, offer it everywhere and hope it settles into a 125 to 150% long term value.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I fully agree that those expecting $100+ in this product are complete bonkers. Best we can hope for is $50 but $40 is probably where they'll play it safe, if they even get that high. If anything we'll get one deck with $40+ in it and the others have like $22-$33. I will also agree that the "didn't pull any punches" line is just hyping people up that are either too gullible or really need their hope that this is going to be amazing. Doing that is just asking for people to shout "Not what you promised!" at them thanks to that line.
I'm sure the same thing will happen with these decks that happened with Event Decks. One is awesome, or as close to it, as possible while the other(s) sit on shelves, then they start to reduce the amount of them (this of course assuming there are four each time these come out) until we have one left and they remove them. Then we get the newly named Clash Packs, or whatever else they'll call them, in the hopes of changing it up, but in the end they'll remove them and then the cycle shall repeat.
Frankly, my hope is that we get a Modern Event/Challenge Deck out of this. It was disappointing they only did one of those. They should have tried at least 3-5 times to see if it could work. Even for the $75 price tag it had it had like $110 worth of cards in it and the deck was decent enough for what it was.
That's exactly the effect I was talking about. I'm nervcited to see what 'We didn't pull any punches' really means in Wizard-land.
4 copies of Savage Punch in every Challenger deck.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Quite. I wouldn't put it past them.
Reminds me of Maro's extra cool way of "not lying."
Sorry, I don't know how to quote. Had to point this out though. That article has nothing to do with what Maro does. Efficiency is a development thing, not a design thing.