Imagine they made a clash pack based on 2 theme decks and/or intro packs.
One might be Sunburst from Fifth Dawn and Elemental's Path from Lorwyn. Another might be Golgari Deathcreep from Ravnica: City of Guilds and Golgari Growth from Return to Ravnica.
Each side would be improved from the original, with more rares, as well as being able to combine with each other.
Nothing gets people back more than theme deck nostalgia. What's worse is missing out on old themes and mechanics. I missed out on some theme decks and intro packs, and if they released and upgraded form of an old theme deck, or make 2 of them combinable, I would buy that product.
Despite them being from modern sets, sell them for $25.
I'd be fine with that product, and would buy it myself, but that isn't what this upcoming product is. The upcoming product is a Standard format only deck(s). Hasbro/Wizards isn't going to cater to the Modern/Legacy buyer outside of Masters sets. They want people buying and playing Standard. Then buying and playing more Standard when the cards rotate out, Ad Nauseam. That makes them the most money. They work on some fallacy that if they make an inferior Event deck, players are going to go out and buy more packs to flesh them out, hence getting them more money. It doesn't work like that, players go to the secondary market and buy the cards they need to compete. Wizards would find they would make more money themselves if they offered something along the lines I'm suggesting above. It cuts out the secondary market (or attempts to) and players get their cards directly. At least in theory. As I stated if the value was far above the MSRP, LGS will be cracking these to sell secondary, defeating the purpose. The goal would be to present value and price the MSRP high enough to discourage "flipping" but low enough to entice players. Just a thought.
That's the catch 22. Either they suck, and people trying to get into standard won't win, or they are too good, stores jack up the price, and people getting into standard are priced out of the deck. So long as there are people paying $100+ for a deck, they are always going to win. Where I live, it is 5% federal + 8% provincial totaling to 13%.
More people will buy $30 crappy deck over $70 good deck. Once they make that purchase, WOTC already got the money. If a player who wants to get into standard doesn't know any better, they will buy the $30 deck regardless, especially when the deck says "Look at me, I am a competitive standard deck." A high price tag will always be a turn off to players new to standard, no matter how good the deck is. WOTC also doesn't want to entice people to buy decks and win. They want players to build decks and win. At least that is what I personally want new players to do. A $70 deck only works for people who are Magic all day, all the time, all money goes into MTG. Some players would rather lose every game than to be down $40.
Let's put it this way. People aren't playing standard, at least for me personally, because they do not want to pour a ton of cash just to play the format. Making a $70 deck just doesn't work. They only work for people who already are huge super fans of the game. Someone just dipping their toes into standard isn't going to shell out $70 for a deck.
Let's look at video games with paid advantages. What is the likelihood that someone will pay real money to get an advantage in a game? Not a lot. Just the diehards.
For $30, if the deck can go .250, then it is already good enough for me. To make it 1.000, players have to put the effort and build their own decks, and if standard is basically, "build this or lose", then there is no way I am touching that format, and there are probably some others who feel the same. I'd rather just buy a ton of $15 precons and play them against each other. That is my own personal idea of fun. Some people like to spend a ton of money, while some people want to spend little money to play the same game. Some people wants to play against many people using the same deck. Some people wants to play the same person using different decks. Now if only each set contained 4 preconstructed decks, instead of 2, and each precon cost $10 without boosters...
A store could do what recreation sports leagues do. Divisions. If you are too good, you go up a division. If you are bad, you move down a division. Instead of getting a prospective standard player be killed by the super competitive player who spends too much on MTG, they can play against other prospective standard players, and improve over time.
We are just going to have to agree to disagree and move on. WotC will never lure a Modern/Legacy Spike into Standard with 30 buck trash decks. They would just assemble a competitive deck themselves. If their strategy is to fool newbie rubes into thinking they can compete with a butter-knife at a gun fight, then so be it. I won't be a part of it. Best wishes and good luck.
But that's not what Challenger decks are for. They are for your typical kitchen table casuals who are looking to get into playing Standard at FNM for the first time, not for someone who already knows how to play competitively. If someone already knows how to play, and has been playing other format for years, and has been building decks, why the heck would they buy anything preconstructed? A person dipping their toes into standard will always walk away from a $70 deck.
Here's what really going to happen. A prospective standard player will more likely use their Planeswalker deck than buy a $70 Challenger deck. If they are that desperate to win, then they might shell out $70, but most people will just take the losses and go home, never to return. If they had a $30 deck, they might be tempted to buy it, get a few wins, and go home happy, with a chance of returning. It's not like they are trying to win a pro tour in their first standard tournament. They would rather take less wins for $30 than win more for $70.
As long as a competitive deck in Standard is $100+, people won't play Standard. Legacy/Modern players probably have the money to build a standard deck, but that has to do with the format sucking, not about what precon products WOTC is trying to make. WOTC is trying to lower the price barrier of entry with these decks. To me, this strategy is going to fail. It never worked before, and it won't work now. If this strategy is a success at whatever attempt they try it, a NHL team will be in Atlanta.
Standard is play these exact decks, against people who each most likely will play these same decks, and some people don't like that experience. Like I said, I'd rather play against many different decks against the same person, and the only thing I think that would get people away from standard is the price of entry, and how they aren't allowed to build whatever they want and expect to win. Challenger decks are nothing more than a step ladder. That's all. WOTC will never make a preconstructed deck that a person can buy and go .500 with it.
So basically WoTC is going to continue the tradition of purposefully hamstringing themselves because the marketing people don't know how a secondary market works and are more concerned with looking at the statistics sheet, which will only show a decline in players once they have the doors shutter on most of the local gaming venues they once supported?
At this point the bar has been set so low for new products that if WoTC were to reprint Collected Company in the last duel deck people will be cheering in the streets. The only way people will cheer for these things is if they pack them with Chandra, Torch of Defiance, The Scarab God, Torrential Gearhulk, and Verdurous gearhulk. At which point we'll get to hear more drama on youtube from Desolator and the like on how WoTC just made the biggest mistake in their lives because nothing they can do can actually be positive.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
TBH, I think there needs to be a huge overhaul with the WOTC staff, but that's just me.
WOTC discontinued theme decks, and now they discontinue duel decks.
Duel decks pretty much had the casual precon vs precon crowd that used to play with theme deck vs theme deck all the time. I think that by discontinuing duel decks, and introducing $30 Challenger decks, they are spitting in the face of those casual players. I am one of those players. I'd rather spend less on a ton of different decks, than a lot on one deck.
When they changed theme decks into intro packs, they spat on my face.
When they took away event decks and clash packs, they didn't really spit on my face, I still had the intro pack, but some others were upset about it.
When they changed 5 a set intro pack into 2 a set Planeswalker deck, they spat on my face.
When they took away duel decks, it didn't really affect me, but others were hurt by this.
I still think each set has to have 4 precons, not 2 like they have now.
You know what? Challegner decks are made to get those precon vs precon casual crowds into Standard. That's got to be it. Why do you think they had to discontinue duel decks? However WOTC tries to do it, these casual precon vs precon crowd isn't going to play Standard because Standard isn't cheap precon vs precon, and they won't spend $30 on a precon. Ok, maybe some, like me, will buy it for the sole fact that it is a precon, and I buy anything precon. If they made a $70 precon, and have a set of 4, I will whine and complain about the price being too high. I already can't buy every single precon. I am not going to spend $200+ each year for a set of 5 commander decks.
I will definitely buy Challenger decks, but only to bring home and play casually, just like all the event decks I have. If WOTC is trying to discontinue certain products to force the precon vs precon casual crowd to get out of their house and go to FNM and play Standard, it ain't working, and will never ever work. These precon vs precon casuals have 2 choices, continue to play precon vs precon, or leave the game entirely. I might still be following the game, but I haven't played a single game of MTG with physical cards since 2014. I only played the free MTG online trial a few times after that.
So basically WoTC is going to continue the tradition of purposefully hamstringing themselves because the marketing people don't know how a secondary market works and are more concerned with looking at the statistics sheet, which will only show a decline in players once they have the doors shutter on most of the local gaming venues they once supported?
At this point the bar has been set so low for new products that if WoTC were to reprint Collected Company in the last duel deck people will be cheering in the streets. The only way people will cheer for these things is if they pack them with Chandra, Torch of Defiance, The Scarab God, Torrential Gearhulk, and Verdurous gearhulk. At which point we'll get to hear more drama on youtube from Desolator and the like on how WoTC just made the biggest mistake in their lives because nothing they can do can actually be positive.
Agreed. I don't want to get sucked back into the debate though. My stance is that they are trash and continuing with the same trash as before will get them the same results, nothing. I've got to leave it at that and move on. Merry Christmas to all that celebrate the season.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
These decks are intended to be very strong and feature many rares, as well as at least two mythic rares. -Gavin Verhey (Challenger Deck architect)
Many rares.
Taking Temur energy as an example... looked up a MTGO winning deck. 23 rares and 4 mythics. They're also saying 'pulled very few punches'. So they're going to release this deck for $30 cutting say the mythics in the sideboard? That would be quite a good product, but are they really going to put x2 $30 Chandra, Torch of Defiance in this deck? Even one? Lets say they put one Chandra in and cut one Glorybringer ($4.5 ea) to make it 2 Glorybringers and max you on Bristling Hydra instead of just 3. 8 of the lands are 8-9 dollars each and another 8 are $3.50 ea. This would still be pretty value town and much more than $30 worth.
So I'm interested to see how they 'don't pull many punches' and release a competitive deck. You can do the simple math on Ramred or any deck just looking at TCG deck lists. Ram Red gives them an opportunity but how many Hazoret the Fervent and Chandra (both mythic) can you cut before it's not that deck anymore and just a shadowy imitation that doesn't win?
I'd like to see them put a good product out that is close to 50% at FNM because it would help bring people in. I just don't believe it. They could even use it to drop the price of some well overpriced cards but again, if they cared to do that they should just delete the mythic rarity so there literally are more of the power cards out there to bring the price of standard to heel.
Release 5 decks for the core set meant for new players. They will cost $10.
Players will next go buy the a set associated precon. There will be 4 a set. They will cost $15 and have no boosters, but instead of only 2 rares, they will have 1 mythic and 4 rares. They are meant for players who already know how to play the base game, and are meant for players to sample the set's themes and mechanics. These decks are designed to combine with another one of these from a different previous set, as well as a future set, to form a standard legal competitive deck that could win at around .250. Design these decks so they are at least not useless after use.
As each set is about to rotate out, re-release and rebuild one of each of the set associated precons from each of the 3 sets into $30 precons that would be competitive in standard, your typical Challenger deck. Each deck will have 2 mythics and 8 rares. These decks are designed to once again, combine with another one of these decks in order for them to go .250 in Modern.
I just wish that they went back to theme decks. They weren't designed with the new player in mind, because back then, you had to had to at least play with the core set theme decks before moving on to the block expansion ones. It seems to me that WOTC is more reluctant to give you a good card for a low price, compared to games like Pokemon and Yugioh, which sell tins and box sets that have reprinted sought after cards. Pokemon used to have 3 rares in their theme decks, and without increasing the price, they added a 2nd copy of the cover card rare, and another rare, which totals to 5 rares. Although I would like to see what I said above in the first few paragraphs, WOTC would never ever sell a $15 precon with 5 rares. They had to make precon exclusive rares just because they don't count as part of the rares that you can pull from packs. The theme deck would be a much better product if only it had 3 rares in them.
Here is a more realistic scenario I would like to see. I am assuming the core set will have 5 planeswalker decks, each one based on the origins 5 gatewatch planeswalkers. What I would like to see is each of the 3 other sets have 3 planeswalker decks. I would also like to see 2 dates in the year where they release 2 challenger decks. One in Fall, one in Spring. In Winter, there will be a duel deck. I would like WOTC to release 20 under $30 preconstructed decks, in any form that plays a regular game of magic. Commander doesn't count. They are designed to play Commander, not regular Magic. Duel Decks, event decks, clash packs, theme decks, intro packs, and planeswalker decks fall into this category.
So basically WoTC is going to continue the tradition of purposefully hamstringing themselves because the marketing people don't know how a secondary market works and are more concerned with looking at the statistics sheet, which will only show a decline in players once they have the doors shutter on most of the local gaming venues they once supported?
At this point the bar has been set so low for new products that if WoTC were to reprint Collected Company in the last duel deck people will be cheering in the streets. The only way people will cheer for these things is if they pack them with Chandra, Torch of Defiance, The Scarab God, Torrential Gearhulk, and Verdurous gearhulk. At which point we'll get to hear more drama on youtube from Desolator and the like on how WoTC just made the biggest mistake in their lives because nothing they can do can actually be positive.
Agreed. I don't want to get sucked back into the debate though. My stance is that they are trash and continuing with the same trash as before will get them the same results, nothing. I've got to leave it at that and move on. Merry Christmas to all that celebrate the season.
Oh yeah, honestly it's best to not worry about the stuff and just enjoy the season for what it is. Not to mention while one game may be depressing, there's always other games out there that are doing well. Tomorrow is going to be a full day of Monopoly Gamer with my nieces, which is actually a game I've wanted to try simply because I'm curious how the boss battle and coin mechanics work into the traditional monopoly game. Also got it mostly because they seemed to be completely out of the new Catan at the store and the weather was so horrible I didn't want to chance it going to my LGS due to how the roads are positioned and linked in the area. Going uphill on a 6 way intersection with two sets of lights when the city hasn't salted the streets yet sounds like a very bad idea in my economy car.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If it at least has most of the same cards as the T1 deck and just needs a few more Rares and Mythics, that's still a lot better of a deck than most current-era precons have been and gives those prospective newish players something to start with that's upgradable to a T1 deck with a relatively few expensive-ish cards.
I'm mostly curious if they will include the top-end manabases or not.
If it at least has most of the same cards as the T1 deck and just needs a few more Rares and Mythics, that's still a lot better of a deck than most current-era precons have been and gives those prospective newish players something to start with that's upgradable to a T1 deck with a relatively few expensive-ish cards.
I'm mostly curious if they will include the top-end manabases or not.
I'm amazed that some people are actually optimistic about this change, and that they think this will help anything.
For the same reason they didn't put any worthwhile cards in Intro Packs and Planeswalker decks, they won't put anything worthwhile in these ones. What keeps people buying packs? Chase rares and lands. Putting those into precons would damage the sale of packs, and they simply won't have that. Decks are either built optimally or sub-optimally - optimal cards fetch the highest prices, so what do you think is going to go in there? Taplands and 8CMC draft bombs, that's what.
So fully expect these to be the biggest pile of tat ever, and with a bigger sale tag to boot.
2014: Let's drop core sets and 3set-paradigm and introduce 2set-paradigm...
2017: A mistakes were made... Meet core sets and no2set-paradigm...
2016: Meet masterpiece theme...
2017: A mistakes were made... Meet not-every-set masterpiece theme...
2015: Meet Gatewatch storyline...
2017: A mistakes were made... Meet less-Gatewatch storyline...
2007: Meet duel decks...
2017: A mistakes were made...
What you neglect to mention is that for each of those cases and many more you could imagine, it was not a "return to normality" after the "mistake" was acknowledged, but rather, moving towards something different to both the "old" and the "newer", something that comes from the lessons learned through the process. What would you rather they do? Not acknowledge their "mistakes" nor do something better? Or simply never ever changing anything from the old times, never taking risks, never creating new things? Or maybe, doing all that, but somehow, getting it /absolutely perfect/ from the first attempt?
And seriously, would you blame them for changing a product that is over 10 years old? Most /companies/ don't last that long and most non-consumable products are entirely redesigned every few years.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
2014: Let's drop core sets and 3set-paradigm and introduce 2set-paradigm...
2017: A mistakes were made... Meet core sets and no2set-paradigm...
2016: Meet masterpiece theme...
2017: A mistakes were made... Meet not-every-set masterpiece theme...
2015: Meet Gatewatch storyline...
2017: A mistakes were made... Meet less-Gatewatch storyline...
2007: Meet duel decks...
2017: A mistakes were made...
What you neglect to mention is that for each of those cases and many more you could imagine, it was not a "return to normality" after the "mistake" was acknowledged, but rather, moving towards something different to both the "old" and the "newer", something that comes from the lessons learned through the process. What would you rather they do? Not acknowledge their "mistakes" nor do something better? Or simply never ever changing anything from the old times, never taking risks, never creating new things? Or maybe, doing all that, but somehow, getting it /absolutely perfect/ from the first attempt?
And seriously, would you blame them for changing a product that is over 10 years old? Most /companies/ don't last that long and most non-consumable products are entirely redesigned every few years.
Issue is that they haven't really been learning a lot from their mistakes and those that they are we still haven't seen if they truly are. All of the mistakes leading to products being removed, which then was a mistake on its own, and then bringing back make you wonder if they have truly learned about their mistakes or not. Core sets and Event Decks being removed were because of their continued under par adequacy, which is oddly the same reason as Duel Decks being removed, then years later they are not coming back, showing that what they tried to replace them with was even worse, adding to that mistake.
We can barely expect them to learn from set to set or product to product, an example being the Masters sets and them constantly having the same issues even though there was a year or more between them, so can we expect them to learn from compounding mistakes that plagued past sets and products? Will we see the same issues yet again? With them making the Event Decks later and learn from the meta there is a shining hope, but we've all seen them forget as to why they do certain things (*cough* fetches and lands with basic land types *cough*) before so I can see the issue with why people, and myself, don't trust them after so long.
It wouldn't surprise me in another 3-5 years them bringing back Duel Decks, stating how there is no cheap casual product. Now if only they'd focus on actual products and not these continued attempts at these board game products they keep shoving out.
I think some people are being a bit delusional about the contents of said decks. I can't remember when any precons were particulary good, not to say contain anything of value. One or two decent rares maybe. Not to count few occasional mistakes like Umezawa's Jitte or Stoneforge Mystic, before they became known as powerhouses they are now. Okay, I'm not too familiar with Event Decks, others may prove me wrong. Officially WotC does not recognize secondary market, but of course they won't ever put Chandra or Scarab God in it. In the end buying deck in singles will almost always be cheaper.
I highly doubt we'll see anything even on par with mtggoldfish Budget Magic series. This is sealed product, dedicated to promote the game. Best customer is bying customer. What is WotC's interest in making something complete with no further need to buy a ton of booster packs to upgrade it? Not much, I'd say. I guess it won't be anything in regards to actual metagame, but rather what the company wants to promote as being cool decks. Say, pirates or dinosaurs. With top rare being one copy of Admiral Beckett Brass or Gishath, Sun's Avatar. The style of game they want you to play. Then new-ish player will come with this to actual FNM to be mercilessly crushed by Ramunap or Energy and become disappointed.
What is realistically to be expected is that these decks will play well with each other. As long as they are positioned as successors of duel decks, right? I hope they don't mess up at least that. Our LGS holds "novice standard" every Thursday with $0,50 entry fee. Most participants are children with planeswalker decks or amateur homebrews. I expect new challenger decks to fill in this spot instead.
UPDADE: Okay, I've given it a second thought and maybe I'm being too harsh on them. Play Design has only been formed recently and guess we have to wait another 6 to 12 month to actually see effects of it. They promise to bridge the gap between what they want Magic to be and what Magic actually is gameplay-wise. Too often WotC have shown that they live in their own little wonderland of Future Future League instead of real world. Don't want to sound like an old grumpy bastard, I just don't have my hopes up about those decks. Yet, my first actual experience with other players was with Onslaught goblin theme deck vs affinity. Me: a little goblin; them: cast whole hand for 0 mana. Fun times :D. My first quit from Magic was shortly after. I just don't want a new player to experience something this heartbreaking.
I agree the last few ones were lackluster. I played the hell out of the first ones, had fun with even experienced fellow players because they were really good for a precon product. Then as some say, Wiz became to withhold power cards and the latest ones became boring to play after a couple of matches.
Where I live, Event decks never kicked off because they were too weak even for casual tournament play, so let's see what this bring us.
2014: Let's drop core sets and 3set-paradigm and introduce 2set-paradigm...
2017: A mistakes were made... Meet core sets and no2set-paradigm...
2016: Meet masterpiece theme...
2017: A mistakes were made... Meet not-every-set masterpiece theme...
2015: Meet Gatewatch storyline...
2017: A mistakes were made... Meet less-Gatewatch storyline...
2007: Meet duel decks...
2017: A mistakes were made...
What you neglect to mention is that for each of those cases and many more you could imagine, it was not a "return to normality" after the "mistake" was acknowledged, but rather, moving towards something different to both the "old" and the "newer", something that comes from the lessons learned through the process. What would you rather they do? Not acknowledge their "mistakes" nor do something better? Or simply never ever changing anything from the old times, never taking risks, never creating new things? Or maybe, doing all that, but somehow, getting it /absolutely perfect/ from the first attempt?
And seriously, would you blame them for changing a product that is over 10 years old? Most /companies/ don't last that long and most non-consumable products are entirely redesigned every few years.
Issue is that they haven't really been learning a lot from their mistakes and those that they are we still haven't seen if they truly are. All of the mistakes leading to products being removed, which then was a mistake on its own, and then bringing back make you wonder if they have truly learned about their mistakes or not. Core sets and Event Decks being removed were because of their continued under par adequacy, which is oddly the same reason as Duel Decks being removed, then years later they are not coming back, showing that what they tried to replace them with was even worse, adding to that mistake.
We can barely expect them to learn from set to set or product to product, an example being the Masters sets and them constantly having the same issues even though there was a year or more between them, so can we expect them to learn from compounding mistakes that plagued past sets and products? Will we see the same issues yet again? With them making the Event Decks later and learn from the meta there is a shining hope, but we've all seen them forget as to why they do certain things (*cough* fetches and lands with basic land types *cough*) before so I can see the issue with why people, and myself, don't trust them after so long.
It wouldn't surprise me in another 3-5 years them bringing back Duel Decks, stating how there is no cheap casual product. Now if only they'd focus on actual products and not these continued attempts at these board game products they keep shoving out.
I get what you are saying, I myself don't have high hopes for this new product. However, I don't automatically discount that it may surprise us. Sure, some poor decisions have been made here and there, but it's not as though there have been NO positive, permanent changes at all. It is more constructive to give them credit for recognising when they have screwed up and continuously try to improve/create new things, than keeping a score of only the mistakes.
For example, the scrapping of the Core Sets: They had been continuously trying to fix and improve Core Sets for a while and unarguably they succeeded to a point. However, some "core" issues remained throughout so scrapping the product altogether was not uncalled for. Obviously, they didn't realise that along with that bathwater, an important baby was also thrown away. It /was/ a mistake, but again, not uncalled for and it is is a good thing that they are fixing it now. Hopefully, its removal and subsequent consequences served to emphasise what exactly is good and necessary for a Core Set and the upcoming iteration will be the best ever. That process of trying, failing, iterating and improving is something that I wouldn't blame anybody for, and much prefer it to a company, who afraid to take risks and failing, plays too safe and the status quo never changes.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
I am sad that WOTC never bothered to make that highly coveted Plants vs Zombies duel deck, and never will now...
Assemble them yourself. Sell them on ebay for profit.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I've been thinking about the timing of this - and April is 3 months away from the Fall Rotation. If they include stuff from KLD/AKH then they will have to be rebuilt very soon. I'm wondering if these decks are only going to be stuff for the next rotation (KLN/DOM/Core) in which case I'm suspicious that they are trying to 'push' the meta in a specific direction from the outset.
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Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
This change just reminds me how much Wizards' introductory product has changed. I remember the Mirage/Tempest block preconstructed decks I bought long ago with creatures with flanking, shadow, or protection, two mana counterspells, and gorgeous lands from those blocks. Granted, the local tournament scene wasn't anything to what it is now or what Wizards wants it to be, but our cafeteria casual play didn't care about secondary markets or earning more than a participation planeswalker point.
Sadly, the more I think about this, the more I'm worried about the game becoming so more obviously luck based, as in drawing the right order or cards, rather than skill based, in play style and deck building. Unfortunately, Wizards can't monetize how to build a deck and how to play when tcgplayer can take the metadata's 75 and put it in envelopes.
I've been thinking about the timing of this - and April is 3 months away from the Fall Rotation. If they include stuff from KLD/AKH then they will have to be rebuilt very soon. I'm wondering if these decks are only going to be stuff for the next rotation (KLN/DOM/Core) in which case I'm suspicious that they are trying to 'push' the meta in a specific direction from the outset.
Read this part by Gavin Verhey:
Hey everybody! Gavin Verhey here, the product architect of Challenger Decks. With Challenger Decks, R&D is bringing the top strategies of Standard right to your local game store shelf. Our Play Design team, full of seasoned pros, built these decks by looking at popular and successful Pro Tour and Grand Prix Standard decks, and we didn't pull many punches. These decks are intended to be very strong and feature many rares, as well as at least two mythic rares.
Traditionally with fixed deck products, we've built them so far in advance that the decks wouldn't look like what players were playing by the time they released. But with Challenger Decks, we changed our entire process so that we could build them much, much closer to release. I think you're going to be very excited by what you see inside Challenger Decks—and I'll be back to tell you a lot more about them in just a couple months.
With these due out April 6th, the deck lists were probably finalized sometime this Fall. They are probably in print or about to go to print now. I'd take a look at Standard lists from September thru December of this year to get an idea of where they are going. Dominaria doesn't release until April 27th. I don't think they would put new Dominaria cards in Challenger decks 3 weeks before release but I suppose it is possible. Core Set is still way to far out from release for them to include anything from it. Look for watered down versions of Standard decks now, tribal stuff and a lot of 35 cent mythics and 25 cent rares included.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I am sad that WOTC never bothered to make that highly coveted Plants vs Zombies duel deck, and never will now...
There's always Casual Deck construction!
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Dominaria doesn't release until April 27th. I don't think they would put new Dominaria cards in Challenger decks 3 weeks before release but I suppose it is possible. Core Set is still way to far out from release for them to include anything from it. Look for watered down versions of Standard decks now, tribal stuff and a lot of 35 cent mythics and 25 cent rares included.
Oh, that's about right then. I was 'shifted' over a little - for some reason I thought the new Core Set was released in April. So the decks will be good for 6 months, not 3. Seems hardly worth it to me.
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Rose tint my world, keep me safe from my trouble and pain.
Dominaria doesn't release until April 27th. I don't think they would put new Dominaria cards in Challenger decks 3 weeks before release but I suppose it is possible. Core Set is still way to far out from release for them to include anything from it. Look for watered down versions of Standard decks now, tribal stuff and a lot of 35 cent mythics and 25 cent rares included.
Oh, that's about right then. I was 'shifted' over a little - for some reason I thought the new Core Set was released in April. So the decks will be good for 6 months, not 3. Seems hardly worth it to me.
6 months is quite a long shelf life for these products. I think it works out okay. The concern should be over what they are putting in these decks. The quote, "and we didn't pull many punches." sets the bar high and sets them up for lots of fans to be disappointed. Standard lists may have anywhere from 6 to 10 mythics, and 12 to 15 rares (or more with rare lands) in the 75 card list. Most are worth north of 150 bucks and many in the 200 to 300 dollar range. They are going to have to pull a lot of punches to get this down to a $30 deck. These decks are going to be nerfed/neutered hard, I don't care what they are claiming. I hope I'm wrong, but I bet I'm right.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The concern should be over what they are putting in these decks. The quote, "and we didn't pull many punches." sets the bar high and sets them up for lots of fans to be disappointed. Standard lists may have anywhere from 6 to 10 mythics, and 12 to 15 rares (or more with rare lands) in the 75 card list. Most are worth north of 150 bucks and many in the 200 to 300 dollar range. They are going to have to pull a lot of punches to get this down to a $30 deck. These decks are going to be nerfed/neutered hard, I don't care what they are claiming. I hope I'm wrong, but I bet I'm right.
Seconded. There is no way, even if they gut the mana bases and tell you to improve it on your own, they can avoid 'pulling many punches'. Not a single viable standard deck has so few mythics and rares that aren't essential which they can keep the value at or near $30. That being said, it'd be good for them to sell some high value decks for lower MSRP simply to get people playing standard again. The huge LGS I frequent that has 30 people playing Modern every Friday night and 25-35 drafting cannot get standard to fire at FNM or any other day. It's been steady downhill since CoCo, they need to really start giving freebies and huge value to tempt people back in.
Just to make an aside for those discussing YGO Structure Decks, they close around 12 dollars and are mostly Singleton. Generally they come with several cards from previous years that are vaguely on theme and worth 10-15 dollars on release. However the basic idea is that these decks are “structure” decks. They provide a structure to a deck, and they need to be filled out with other cards. The simplest way to do this, is by buying 2-3 of the same structure deck.
That deck is equivalent and playable at the YGO Version of FNM. Three particular decks within the last five years provided the basis for competitive Deck (M&M/Pendulum, Domain Monarch and D/D/D). The biggest difference is these decks printed new cards, meant to fill in or plug the gaps of their respective archtypes.
Link Strike, while more of a starter follows these same principles. Providing several older cards that were in the 10-15 dollar range a couple years ago. The cover cards providing the basis for several competitive decks by the virtue of being super generic.
Those are the kind of decks, that the challenger decks will be equivalent too.
That being said, it'd be good for them to sell some high value decks for lower MSRP simply to get people playing standard again.
I agree with your post and with this statement as well. But as I mentioned earlier, if there is 60 dollars of value from a few rares/mythics then LGS owners will either crack them open and sell the singles out or just mark up the product above MSRP. The only way to "fix" that would be for these to be offered at box stores (WM, Target, etc.) as well. But you had better have a plan of attack on release date to rush into a box store and get the deck you want as speculators would try to buy and flip these before anyone had a chance to get one.
There are just too many things stacked against these being good for 30 bucks. Again, I want to be wrong but I'd wager I'm right.
However the basic idea is that these decks are “structure” decks. They provide a structure to a deck, and they need to be filled out with other cards. The simplest way to do this, is by buying 2-3 of the same structure deck.
Again this is why I suggested a nearly un-nerfed box at $69.99 where you wouldn't have to do this. Nothing like a newbie buying a "ready to compete" deck and find out its a total piece of crap unless you buy 2 more of them and then you may stand a chance.
These Challenger decks only have one outcome. They will be nothing more than Event Decks rebooted 2.0 and will have the exact same results as the originals. Wizards/Hasbro haven't learned or don't care. My money is on the don't care and just want to bring in more $$$.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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But that's not what Challenger decks are for. They are for your typical kitchen table casuals who are looking to get into playing Standard at FNM for the first time, not for someone who already knows how to play competitively. If someone already knows how to play, and has been playing other format for years, and has been building decks, why the heck would they buy anything preconstructed? A person dipping their toes into standard will always walk away from a $70 deck.
Here's what really going to happen. A prospective standard player will more likely use their Planeswalker deck than buy a $70 Challenger deck. If they are that desperate to win, then they might shell out $70, but most people will just take the losses and go home, never to return. If they had a $30 deck, they might be tempted to buy it, get a few wins, and go home happy, with a chance of returning. It's not like they are trying to win a pro tour in their first standard tournament. They would rather take less wins for $30 than win more for $70.
As long as a competitive deck in Standard is $100+, people won't play Standard. Legacy/Modern players probably have the money to build a standard deck, but that has to do with the format sucking, not about what precon products WOTC is trying to make. WOTC is trying to lower the price barrier of entry with these decks. To me, this strategy is going to fail. It never worked before, and it won't work now. If this strategy is a success at whatever attempt they try it, a NHL team will be in Atlanta.
Standard is play these exact decks, against people who each most likely will play these same decks, and some people don't like that experience. Like I said, I'd rather play against many different decks against the same person, and the only thing I think that would get people away from standard is the price of entry, and how they aren't allowed to build whatever they want and expect to win. Challenger decks are nothing more than a step ladder. That's all. WOTC will never make a preconstructed deck that a person can buy and go .500 with it.
At this point the bar has been set so low for new products that if WoTC were to reprint Collected Company in the last duel deck people will be cheering in the streets. The only way people will cheer for these things is if they pack them with Chandra, Torch of Defiance, The Scarab God, Torrential Gearhulk, and Verdurous gearhulk. At which point we'll get to hear more drama on youtube from Desolator and the like on how WoTC just made the biggest mistake in their lives because nothing they can do can actually be positive.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
WOTC discontinued theme decks, and now they discontinue duel decks.
Duel decks pretty much had the casual precon vs precon crowd that used to play with theme deck vs theme deck all the time. I think that by discontinuing duel decks, and introducing $30 Challenger decks, they are spitting in the face of those casual players. I am one of those players. I'd rather spend less on a ton of different decks, than a lot on one deck.
When they changed theme decks into intro packs, they spat on my face.
When they took away event decks and clash packs, they didn't really spit on my face, I still had the intro pack, but some others were upset about it.
When they changed 5 a set intro pack into 2 a set Planeswalker deck, they spat on my face.
When they took away duel decks, it didn't really affect me, but others were hurt by this.
I still think each set has to have 4 precons, not 2 like they have now.
You know what? Challegner decks are made to get those precon vs precon casual crowds into Standard. That's got to be it. Why do you think they had to discontinue duel decks? However WOTC tries to do it, these casual precon vs precon crowd isn't going to play Standard because Standard isn't cheap precon vs precon, and they won't spend $30 on a precon. Ok, maybe some, like me, will buy it for the sole fact that it is a precon, and I buy anything precon. If they made a $70 precon, and have a set of 4, I will whine and complain about the price being too high. I already can't buy every single precon. I am not going to spend $200+ each year for a set of 5 commander decks.
I will definitely buy Challenger decks, but only to bring home and play casually, just like all the event decks I have. If WOTC is trying to discontinue certain products to force the precon vs precon casual crowd to get out of their house and go to FNM and play Standard, it ain't working, and will never ever work. These precon vs precon casuals have 2 choices, continue to play precon vs precon, or leave the game entirely. I might still be following the game, but I haven't played a single game of MTG with physical cards since 2014. I only played the free MTG online trial a few times after that.
Agreed. I don't want to get sucked back into the debate though. My stance is that they are trash and continuing with the same trash as before will get them the same results, nothing. I've got to leave it at that and move on. Merry Christmas to all that celebrate the season.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Many rares.
Taking Temur energy as an example... looked up a MTGO winning deck. 23 rares and 4 mythics. They're also saying 'pulled very few punches'. So they're going to release this deck for $30 cutting say the mythics in the sideboard? That would be quite a good product, but are they really going to put x2 $30 Chandra, Torch of Defiance in this deck? Even one? Lets say they put one Chandra in and cut one Glorybringer ($4.5 ea) to make it 2 Glorybringers and max you on Bristling Hydra instead of just 3. 8 of the lands are 8-9 dollars each and another 8 are $3.50 ea. This would still be pretty value town and much more than $30 worth.
So I'm interested to see how they 'don't pull many punches' and release a competitive deck. You can do the simple math on Ramred or any deck just looking at TCG deck lists. Ram Red gives them an opportunity but how many Hazoret the Fervent and Chandra (both mythic) can you cut before it's not that deck anymore and just a shadowy imitation that doesn't win?
I'd like to see them put a good product out that is close to 50% at FNM because it would help bring people in. I just don't believe it. They could even use it to drop the price of some well overpriced cards but again, if they cared to do that they should just delete the mythic rarity so there literally are more of the power cards out there to bring the price of standard to heel.
First is scrap planeswalker decks.
Release 5 decks for the core set meant for new players. They will cost $10.
Players will next go buy the a set associated precon. There will be 4 a set. They will cost $15 and have no boosters, but instead of only 2 rares, they will have 1 mythic and 4 rares. They are meant for players who already know how to play the base game, and are meant for players to sample the set's themes and mechanics. These decks are designed to combine with another one of these from a different previous set, as well as a future set, to form a standard legal competitive deck that could win at around .250. Design these decks so they are at least not useless after use.
As each set is about to rotate out, re-release and rebuild one of each of the set associated precons from each of the 3 sets into $30 precons that would be competitive in standard, your typical Challenger deck. Each deck will have 2 mythics and 8 rares. These decks are designed to once again, combine with another one of these decks in order for them to go .250 in Modern.
I just wish that they went back to theme decks. They weren't designed with the new player in mind, because back then, you had to had to at least play with the core set theme decks before moving on to the block expansion ones. It seems to me that WOTC is more reluctant to give you a good card for a low price, compared to games like Pokemon and Yugioh, which sell tins and box sets that have reprinted sought after cards. Pokemon used to have 3 rares in their theme decks, and without increasing the price, they added a 2nd copy of the cover card rare, and another rare, which totals to 5 rares. Although I would like to see what I said above in the first few paragraphs, WOTC would never ever sell a $15 precon with 5 rares. They had to make precon exclusive rares just because they don't count as part of the rares that you can pull from packs. The theme deck would be a much better product if only it had 3 rares in them.
Here is a more realistic scenario I would like to see. I am assuming the core set will have 5 planeswalker decks, each one based on the origins 5 gatewatch planeswalkers. What I would like to see is each of the 3 other sets have 3 planeswalker decks. I would also like to see 2 dates in the year where they release 2 challenger decks. One in Fall, one in Spring. In Winter, there will be a duel deck. I would like WOTC to release 20 under $30 preconstructed decks, in any form that plays a regular game of magic. Commander doesn't count. They are designed to play Commander, not regular Magic. Duel Decks, event decks, clash packs, theme decks, intro packs, and planeswalker decks fall into this category.
Oh yeah, honestly it's best to not worry about the stuff and just enjoy the season for what it is. Not to mention while one game may be depressing, there's always other games out there that are doing well. Tomorrow is going to be a full day of Monopoly Gamer with my nieces, which is actually a game I've wanted to try simply because I'm curious how the boss battle and coin mechanics work into the traditional monopoly game. Also got it mostly because they seemed to be completely out of the new Catan at the store and the weather was so horrible I didn't want to chance it going to my LGS due to how the roads are positioned and linked in the area. Going uphill on a 6 way intersection with two sets of lights when the city hasn't salted the streets yet sounds like a very bad idea in my economy car.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm mostly curious if they will include the top-end manabases or not.
I'm amazed that some people are actually optimistic about this change, and that they think this will help anything.
For the same reason they didn't put any worthwhile cards in Intro Packs and Planeswalker decks, they won't put anything worthwhile in these ones. What keeps people buying packs? Chase rares and lands. Putting those into precons would damage the sale of packs, and they simply won't have that. Decks are either built optimally or sub-optimally - optimal cards fetch the highest prices, so what do you think is going to go in there? Taplands and 8CMC draft bombs, that's what.
So fully expect these to be the biggest pile of tat ever, and with a bigger sale tag to boot.
What you neglect to mention is that for each of those cases and many more you could imagine, it was not a "return to normality" after the "mistake" was acknowledged, but rather, moving towards something different to both the "old" and the "newer", something that comes from the lessons learned through the process. What would you rather they do? Not acknowledge their "mistakes" nor do something better? Or simply never ever changing anything from the old times, never taking risks, never creating new things? Or maybe, doing all that, but somehow, getting it /absolutely perfect/ from the first attempt?
And seriously, would you blame them for changing a product that is over 10 years old? Most /companies/ don't last that long and most non-consumable products are entirely redesigned every few years.
Issue is that they haven't really been learning a lot from their mistakes and those that they are we still haven't seen if they truly are. All of the mistakes leading to products being removed, which then was a mistake on its own, and then bringing back make you wonder if they have truly learned about their mistakes or not. Core sets and Event Decks being removed were because of their continued under par adequacy, which is oddly the same reason as Duel Decks being removed, then years later they are not coming back, showing that what they tried to replace them with was even worse, adding to that mistake.
We can barely expect them to learn from set to set or product to product, an example being the Masters sets and them constantly having the same issues even though there was a year or more between them, so can we expect them to learn from compounding mistakes that plagued past sets and products? Will we see the same issues yet again? With them making the Event Decks later and learn from the meta there is a shining hope, but we've all seen them forget as to why they do certain things (*cough* fetches and lands with basic land types *cough*) before so I can see the issue with why people, and myself, don't trust them after so long.
It wouldn't surprise me in another 3-5 years them bringing back Duel Decks, stating how there is no cheap casual product. Now if only they'd focus on actual products and not these continued attempts at these board game products they keep shoving out.
I highly doubt we'll see anything even on par with mtggoldfish Budget Magic series. This is sealed product, dedicated to promote the game. Best customer is bying customer. What is WotC's interest in making something complete with no further need to buy a ton of booster packs to upgrade it? Not much, I'd say. I guess it won't be anything in regards to actual metagame, but rather what the company wants to promote as being cool decks. Say, pirates or dinosaurs. With top rare being one copy of Admiral Beckett Brass or Gishath, Sun's Avatar. The style of game they want you to play. Then new-ish player will come with this to actual FNM to be mercilessly crushed by Ramunap or Energy and become disappointed.
What is realistically to be expected is that these decks will play well with each other. As long as they are positioned as successors of duel decks, right? I hope they don't mess up at least that. Our LGS holds "novice standard" every Thursday with $0,50 entry fee. Most participants are children with planeswalker decks or amateur homebrews. I expect new challenger decks to fill in this spot instead.
UPDADE: Okay, I've given it a second thought and maybe I'm being too harsh on them. Play Design has only been formed recently and guess we have to wait another 6 to 12 month to actually see effects of it. They promise to bridge the gap between what they want Magic to be and what Magic actually is gameplay-wise. Too often WotC have shown that they live in their own little wonderland of Future Future League instead of real world. Don't want to sound like an old grumpy bastard, I just don't have my hopes up about those decks. Yet, my first actual experience with other players was with Onslaught goblin theme deck vs affinity. Me: a little goblin; them: cast whole hand for 0 mana. Fun times :D. My first quit from Magic was shortly after. I just don't want a new player to experience something this heartbreaking.
Modern: UR Bloo
Where I live, Event decks never kicked off because they were too weak even for casual tournament play, so let's see what this bring us.
I get what you are saying, I myself don't have high hopes for this new product. However, I don't automatically discount that it may surprise us. Sure, some poor decisions have been made here and there, but it's not as though there have been NO positive, permanent changes at all. It is more constructive to give them credit for recognising when they have screwed up and continuously try to improve/create new things, than keeping a score of only the mistakes.
For example, the scrapping of the Core Sets: They had been continuously trying to fix and improve Core Sets for a while and unarguably they succeeded to a point. However, some "core" issues remained throughout so scrapping the product altogether was not uncalled for. Obviously, they didn't realise that along with that bathwater, an important baby was also thrown away. It /was/ a mistake, but again, not uncalled for and it is is a good thing that they are fixing it now. Hopefully, its removal and subsequent consequences served to emphasise what exactly is good and necessary for a Core Set and the upcoming iteration will be the best ever. That process of trying, failing, iterating and improving is something that I wouldn't blame anybody for, and much prefer it to a company, who afraid to take risks and failing, plays too safe and the status quo never changes.
Edgar Markov - Bloodied Fangs
Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca - Jade Daggers
Narset, Enlightened Master - Monk Mastery
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - Necromancy love
Assemble them yourself. Sell them on ebay for profit.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Sadly, the more I think about this, the more I'm worried about the game becoming so more obviously luck based, as in drawing the right order or cards, rather than skill based, in play style and deck building. Unfortunately, Wizards can't monetize how to build a deck and how to play when tcgplayer can take the metadata's 75 and put it in envelopes.
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)
Read this part by Gavin Verhey:
With these due out April 6th, the deck lists were probably finalized sometime this Fall. They are probably in print or about to go to print now. I'd take a look at Standard lists from September thru December of this year to get an idea of where they are going. Dominaria doesn't release until April 27th. I don't think they would put new Dominaria cards in Challenger decks 3 weeks before release but I suppose it is possible. Core Set is still way to far out from release for them to include anything from it. Look for watered down versions of Standard decks now, tribal stuff and a lot of 35 cent mythics and 25 cent rares included.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
There's always Casual Deck construction!
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Oh, that's about right then. I was 'shifted' over a little - for some reason I thought the new Core Set was released in April. So the decks will be good for 6 months, not 3. Seems hardly worth it to me.
6 months is quite a long shelf life for these products. I think it works out okay. The concern should be over what they are putting in these decks. The quote, "and we didn't pull many punches." sets the bar high and sets them up for lots of fans to be disappointed. Standard lists may have anywhere from 6 to 10 mythics, and 12 to 15 rares (or more with rare lands) in the 75 card list. Most are worth north of 150 bucks and many in the 200 to 300 dollar range. They are going to have to pull a lot of punches to get this down to a $30 deck. These decks are going to be nerfed/neutered hard, I don't care what they are claiming. I hope I'm wrong, but I bet I'm right.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Seconded. There is no way, even if they gut the mana bases and tell you to improve it on your own, they can avoid 'pulling many punches'. Not a single viable standard deck has so few mythics and rares that aren't essential which they can keep the value at or near $30. That being said, it'd be good for them to sell some high value decks for lower MSRP simply to get people playing standard again. The huge LGS I frequent that has 30 people playing Modern every Friday night and 25-35 drafting cannot get standard to fire at FNM or any other day. It's been steady downhill since CoCo, they need to really start giving freebies and huge value to tempt people back in.
That deck is equivalent and playable at the YGO Version of FNM. Three particular decks within the last five years provided the basis for competitive Deck (M&M/Pendulum, Domain Monarch and D/D/D). The biggest difference is these decks printed new cards, meant to fill in or plug the gaps of their respective archtypes.
Link Strike, while more of a starter follows these same principles. Providing several older cards that were in the 10-15 dollar range a couple years ago. The cover cards providing the basis for several competitive decks by the virtue of being super generic.
Those are the kind of decks, that the challenger decks will be equivalent too.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
I agree with your post and with this statement as well. But as I mentioned earlier, if there is 60 dollars of value from a few rares/mythics then LGS owners will either crack them open and sell the singles out or just mark up the product above MSRP. The only way to "fix" that would be for these to be offered at box stores (WM, Target, etc.) as well. But you had better have a plan of attack on release date to rush into a box store and get the deck you want as speculators would try to buy and flip these before anyone had a chance to get one.
There are just too many things stacked against these being good for 30 bucks. Again, I want to be wrong but I'd wager I'm right.
Again this is why I suggested a nearly un-nerfed box at $69.99 where you wouldn't have to do this. Nothing like a newbie buying a "ready to compete" deck and find out its a total piece of crap unless you buy 2 more of them and then you may stand a chance.
These Challenger decks only have one outcome. They will be nothing more than Event Decks rebooted 2.0 and will have the exact same results as the originals. Wizards/Hasbro haven't learned or don't care. My money is on the don't care and just want to bring in more $$$.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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