Yet, Kothoped is a 6/6 that gives you one draw at a a time. Griselbrand is a 7/7 that lets you draw 7 cards at a time. Razaketh is 8/8 that lets you tutor for any card.. I wouldn't be surprised if Belzenlok will be a 9/9 or bigger that lets you sac a creature and pay half your life to Head Games yourself or something like that. Now, they could make him cost 9 or 10 mana and it wouldn't be a more powerfull card than at least Griselbrand. But from a flavor perspective, casting cost does not matter. That is an in-game balancing mechanic. If you leave casting cost out of the equation, you clearly see that Kothoped<Griselbrand<Razaketh and probably <Belzenlok.
That said, I completely agree with Tiro's assessment: a card that is as story hyped as this should feel awesome by having an awesome ability. Wether it will see play due to how "fairly" costed it is is not relevant. It just should be realy powerfull when you manage to get it out. "Whenever a loyalty counter would be removed from a planeswalker, it isn't. You and permanents you control have protection from Planeswalkers." for example, would make the immortal sun feel more unique and powerfull than this (regardless of wether the actual card in total would be).
Not too mention the fact that to feel as a good story artifact, it's abilities should have reflected something each tribe wanted. What of it's current abilities, even if you try to bend the effect for flavor, could possibly remove the bloodlust associated with vampirism the Legion of Dusk wants it for? What "land shaping powers" would this grant the merfolk? I can't think of anything beyond a generic:
+1 card -> Wisdom
+1/+1 -> Strength
-1 -> Wealth
In fairness I imagine that there was a time in design or development where the Sun was like 3 and only the antiplaneswalker ability and they decided it was too narrow to ever see any play in anything.
And they would probably be right. And it wouldn't do the story justice either. But then again, neither does this version.
The planeswalker trap is the only clear-cut aspect of the artifact. Everything else was pretty much ambiguous, so even if I wanted to suggest a better way of doing this thing, it'd be difficult for me.
Yeah it should definitly do something to nullify PW's, and the ability they've given it fits perfectly for that story aspect. If they had made the card cost 2 or 3 and it did just that it wouldn't feel epic but it would at least fit the story flavor and it would have going for it that it would be the first magic card in existence that does the effect. It's the rest of the effects that seem off. Given that it's supposed to give it's controller a lot of power and it's a binding artifact, something to resemble "binding" your opponents (who are also supposed to be planeswalkers) would feel way more epic. I can't think of a proper ability right now, but something very ystrong yet not broken fitting for a legendary mythic rare artifact.
EDIT: something along the lines of t: Until the beginning of your next turn, target player cannot cast spells or activate abilities if he or she did so during his or her last turn. Basically you inhibit your opponent every other turn. Cost it as high as neccesary for it to be fair.
Pirates, Dinos, and Vampires all have an aggro component that makes the +1/+1 useful, especially for Pirates and Vampires. Dinosaurs can use the cost reduction. Merfolk of course enjoy card draw.
ALL creature decks can use an anthem effect, ALL decks can use a cost reduction effect and ALL decks love drawing extra cards. I'm not saying the card as it is now is not a usefull card - I can see myself running it easily in many a commander deck. Just that the card is kind of bland for what is supposed to be a a story-centric artifact of great power.
Pirates, Dinos, and Vampires all have an aggro component that makes the +1/+1 useful, especially for Pirates and Vampires. Dinosaurs can use the cost reduction. Merfolk of course enjoy card draw.
I'd assume everyone can use the card draw, TBH. Aggro decks don't want to run out of gas. Control and midrange decks can always use more answers. Combo decks, it's...not the best way to get to a combo, but given how bad tutors are these days, it'll do.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
ALL creature decks can use an anthem effect, ALL decks can use a cost reduction effect and ALL decks love drawing extra cards. I'm not saying the card as it is now is not a usefull card - I can see myself running it easily in many a commander deck. Just that the card is kind of bland for what is supposed to be a a story-centric artifact of great power.
Well, what else is it supposed to do?
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
ALL creature decks can use an anthem effect, ALL decks can use a cost reduction effect and ALL decks love drawing extra cards. I'm not saying the card as it is now is not a usefull card - I can see myself running it easily in many a commander deck. Just that the card is kind of bland for what is supposed to be a a story-centric artifact of great power.
Well, what else is it supposed to do?
Swing the game. That's what Paradox Engine does. I cast Paradox Engine, and people scoop. Or watch a flood of advantage. Omniscience, same thing.
Swing the game. That's what Paradox Engine does. I cast Paradox Engine, and people scoop. Or watch a flood of advantage. Omniscience, same thing.
Paradox Engine has fewer functions than The Immortal Sun, and is, y'know, a combo piece, a moniker which never was even intended to apply to the latter. PE is a lot less impressive in a deck that just uses it for pseudo-vigilance. Omniscience is a really irrelevant card here. I'm not sure why you even brought it up in the first place. I guess it's similar to PE in that it needs a deck capable of optimizing it (and is also capable of even using a 10 mana enchantment in the first place).
Swing the game. That's what Paradox Engine does. I cast Paradox Engine, and people scoop. Or watch a flood of advantage. Omniscience, same thing.
Paradox Engine has fewer functions than The Immortal Sun, and is, y'know, a combo piece, a moniker which never was even intended to apply to the latter. PE is a lot less impressive in a deck that just uses it for pseudo-vigilance. Omniscience is a really irrelevant card here. I'm not sure why you even brought it up in the first place. I guess it's similar to PE in that it needs a deck capable of optimizing it (and is also capable of even using a 10 mana enchantment in the first place).
Yeah, Omniscience really needs to be optimized. Like playing cards with mana costs. Much optimizing.
The cards good. If you have a problem with it, you’re the problem, not the card
So if you have a problem with the fact that this this that is supposed to be able to destroy cities doesn't have a mode to reflect that, it's on you? or that it doesn't even do any mode especially well? If it were just an artifact in one story, that would be fine, but I expect something that at least FEELS impressive from the core of the block. It's probably a good card, i have said that from the start, but it doesn't feel like something to spark wars and thousand year quests. Is it better than Lux Cannon ? probably. but if we had the PW nerfing tacked on to Lux Cannon and they called it Immortal Sun, I would be happy as a clam, because that would feel absolutely right.
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I still think that they were trying to emulate Mirari's Wake to a certain degree with the non-walker-centric abilities, since the cost reduction has a similar impact to mana doubling, and the Anthem effect is self-explanatory. Also, the events surrounding both Mirari and The Immortal Sun have a similar tone.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that The Immortal Sun has anything in-universe to do with the Mirari.
The cards good. If you have a problem with it, you’re the problem, not the card
So if you have a problem with the fact that this this that is supposed to be able to destroy cities doesn't have a mode to reflect that, it's on you? or that it doesn't even do any mode especially well? If it were just an artifact in one story, that would be fine, but I expect something that at least FEELS impressive from the core of the block. It's probably a good card, i have said that from the start, but it doesn't feel like something to spark wars and thousand year quests. Is it better than Lux Cannon ? probably. but if we had the PW nerfing tacked on to Lux Cannon and they called it Immortal Sun, I would be happy as a clam, because that would feel absolutely right.
Except that, based on what we know of The Immortal Sun from pre-Rivals content, the most likely identity for it was some sort of power source rather than a means to channel and use power. The evidence we have points to the offensive magic related to it being a spell cast with mana from TIS rather than an attack originating from the artifact itself.
The cards good. If you have a problem with it, you’re the problem, not the card
So if you have a problem with the fact that this this that is supposed to be able to destroy cities doesn't have a mode to reflect that, it's on you? or that it doesn't even do any mode especially well? If it were just an artifact in one story, that would be fine, but I expect something that at least FEELS impressive from the core of the block. It's probably a good card, i have said that from the start, but it doesn't feel like something to spark wars and thousand year quests. Is it better than Lux Cannon ? probably. but if we had the PW nerfing tacked on to Lux Cannon and they called it Immortal Sun, I would be happy as a clam, because that would feel absolutely right.
Except that, based on what we know of The Immortal Sun from pre-Rivals content, the most likely identity for it was some sort of power source rather than a means to channel and use power. The evidence we have points to the offensive magic related to it being a spell cast with mana from TIS rather than an attack originating from the artifact itself.
Okay then, have it be that. Because reducing costs by one is not that. Wildfire is still uncastable, and a creature bump doesn't fit. it is a cool artifact, but with how you are viewing it, Gilded Lotus with a PW nerf tacked on for one more mana would be much better. more energy, no random anthem effect.
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Okay then, have it be that. Because reducing costs by one is not that. Wildfire is still uncastable, and a creature bump doesn't fit. it is a cool artifact, but with how you are viewing it, Gilded Lotus with a PW nerf tacked on for one more mana would be much better. more energy, no random anthem effect.
At this point, I think you're just scrabbling for things to complain about because cards not being as godly as flavor dictates should be something any longtime player should have gotten used to already. And, good heavens no, your version would be terrible regardless of how useful the current version is.
Tetzimoc is much better than Multikicker B : Destroy a creature, as you can pay for it multiple turns in advance
I just wish it said 'or from the Command Zone'.
Unfortunately nothing can be cast from the command zone in "standard" magic.
I really hate that they keep putting Deathtouch on huge black creatures, since it's basically redundant. Almost everything that fights this guy is gonna die. Give him Menace, he's scary!
Tetzimoc is much better than Multikicker B : Destroy a creature, as you can pay for it multiple turns in advance
I just wish it said 'or from the Command Zone'.
Unfortunately nothing can be cast from the command zone in "standard" magic.
I really hate that they keep putting Deathtouch on huge black creatures, since it's basically redundant. Almost everything that fights this guy is gonna die. Give him Menace, he's scary!
Well your making a fatal mistake
How do you know there's no else other black stuff that makes prey counters?
[quote from="scottjhebert »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/786056-the-immortal-sun-and-a-black-dino?comment=14"]Tetzimoc is much better than Multikicker B : Destroy a creature, as you can pay for it multiple turns in advance
I just wish it said 'or from the Command Zone'.
Unfortunately nothing can be cast from the command zone in "standard" magic.
. Unfortunately there is a Commander game mode in mtg, and there is a Command Zone so yes, they could have done it if they wanted.
Imo both dino's are decent in EDH, i don't play any kind of competitive magic, but from what i see at my LGS, the dinos and the Sun are probably useless in competitive EDH
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BWG
Art student, EDH lover and a strong believer that Delver has the best design in all of MTG.
Unfortunately there is a Commander game mode in mtg, and there is a Command Zone so yes, they could have done it if they wanted.
Imo both dino's are decent in EDH, i don't play any kind of competitive magic, but from what i see at my LGS, the dinos and the Sun are probably useless in competitive EDH
The fact that commander exists does not automatically make its mechanics eligible for standard sets. Commander products are designed as a departure from the norm, not something we expect to find in standard sets.
Maybe it's just me, but the black dino feels kinda off, Dino's (in Ixalan) are Green and Red to represent their violent/predator's nature, while white represent the fact that some of them are tamed, having a black dino makes just as much sense as a blue one
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BWG
Art student, EDH lover and a strong believer that Delver has the best design in all of MTG.
Unfortunately there is a Commander game mode in mtg, and there is a Command Zone so yes, they could have done it if they wanted.
Imo both dino's are decent in EDH, i don't play any kind of competitive magic, but from what i see at my LGS, the dinos and the Sun are probably useless in competitive EDH
The fact that commander exists does not automatically make its mechanics eligible for standard sets. Commander products are designed as a departure from the norm, not something we expect to find in standard sets.
And it's not like the black dino is unusable in EDH; it's just not as good as a commander. Which is fine. Not every legend needs to be a commander.
Maybe it's just me, but the black dino feels kinda off, Dino's (in Ixalan) are Green and Red to represent their violent/predator's nature, while white represent the fact that some of them are tamed, having a black dino makes just as much sense as a blue one
Blue would be super weird (Unless they do fish creatures) but I feel like Black Dinos make sense to show that there still are wild dinos out there while, as you say, the red and green ones have been tamed
EDIT: something along the lines of t: Until the beginning of your next turn, target player cannot cast spells or activate abilities if he or she did so during his or her last turn. Basically you inhibit your opponent every other turn. Cost it as high as neccesary for it to be fair.
ALL creature decks can use an anthem effect, ALL decks can use a cost reduction effect and ALL decks love drawing extra cards. I'm not saying the card as it is now is not a usefull card - I can see myself running it easily in many a commander deck. Just that the card is kind of bland for what is supposed to be a a story-centric artifact of great power.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I'd assume everyone can use the card draw, TBH. Aggro decks don't want to run out of gas. Control and midrange decks can always use more answers. Combo decks, it's...not the best way to get to a combo, but given how bad tutors are these days, it'll do.
On phasing:
Well, what else is it supposed to do?
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Paradox Engine has fewer functions than The Immortal Sun, and is, y'know, a combo piece, a moniker which never was even intended to apply to the latter. PE is a lot less impressive in a deck that just uses it for pseudo-vigilance. Omniscience is a really irrelevant card here. I'm not sure why you even brought it up in the first place. I guess it's similar to PE in that it needs a deck capable of optimizing it (and is also capable of even using a 10 mana enchantment in the first place).
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Not what I meant.
So if you have a problem with the fact that this this that is supposed to be able to destroy cities doesn't have a mode to reflect that, it's on you? or that it doesn't even do any mode especially well? If it were just an artifact in one story, that would be fine, but I expect something that at least FEELS impressive from the core of the block. It's probably a good card, i have said that from the start, but it doesn't feel like something to spark wars and thousand year quests. Is it better than Lux Cannon ? probably. but if we had the PW nerfing tacked on to Lux Cannon and they called it Immortal Sun, I would be happy as a clam, because that would feel absolutely right.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that The Immortal Sun has anything in-universe to do with the Mirari.
Except that, based on what we know of The Immortal Sun from pre-Rivals content, the most likely identity for it was some sort of power source rather than a means to channel and use power. The evidence we have points to the offensive magic related to it being a spell cast with mana from TIS rather than an attack originating from the artifact itself.
Okay then, have it be that. Because reducing costs by one is not that. Wildfire is still uncastable, and a creature bump doesn't fit. it is a cool artifact, but with how you are viewing it, Gilded Lotus with a PW nerf tacked on for one more mana would be much better. more energy, no random anthem effect.
At this point, I think you're just scrabbling for things to complain about because cards not being as godly as flavor dictates should be something any longtime player should have gotten used to already. And, good heavens no, your version would be terrible regardless of how useful the current version is.
Unfortunately nothing can be cast from the command zone in "standard" magic.
I really hate that they keep putting Deathtouch on huge black creatures, since it's basically redundant. Almost everything that fights this guy is gonna die. Give him Menace, he's scary!
Well your making a fatal mistake
How do you know there's no else other black stuff that makes prey counters?
. Unfortunately there is a Commander game mode in mtg, and there is a Command Zone so yes, they could have done it if they wanted.
Imo both dino's are decent in EDH, i don't play any kind of competitive magic, but from what i see at my LGS, the dinos and the Sun are probably useless in competitive EDH
Art student, EDH lover and a strong believer that Delver has the best design in all of MTG.
The fact that commander exists does not automatically make its mechanics eligible for standard sets. Commander products are designed as a departure from the norm, not something we expect to find in standard sets.
Art student, EDH lover and a strong believer that Delver has the best design in all of MTG.
Blue would be super weird (Unless they do fish creatures) but I feel like Black Dinos make sense to show that there still are wild dinos out there while, as you say, the red and green ones have been tamed
I just want Christmas 2017 to come up so I can see the set shaping up.