Okay, we need Maro to step in to make a ruling on this because as an L1 I would sight MTG COMP RULE 313.3. "Conspiracy cards remain in the command zone throughout the game. They’re not permanents. They can’t be cast or included in a deck. If a conspiracy card would leave the command zone, it
remains in the command zone. Conspiracy cards that aren’t in the game can’t be brought into the game." BUT the DCI B&R List clearly lists that the Conspiracies are on the banned list for Vintage and Legacy. Yet, I will sight MTG COMP RULE 101.1 "Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a)." So seeing how UNSets are meant to break the MTG COMP RULES, a clear example is Rules Lawer, then it would stand to this judge that clearly you can use Booster Tutor and Spike to get Conspiracies into your hand, but having no casting cost then you must find another way to play them and it would stand to reason that you place them into the Command Zone once they resolve.
If this was your EDH general, what's the most broken thing you could do? You could have him/her out on turn 2 and get any 4 cards. What do you get? (I guess this assumes your playing EDH with sideboard rules.)
Step 1) Have rocks/lands/creatures/etc that can produce mana of any color OR can filter mana into any color.
Step 2) Fetch Zuran Orb + Fastbond + Crucible of Worlds
Step 3) Cast the three fetched cards when you have the mana.
Step 4) Gain infinite life
Step 5) Fetch for more banned/restricted cards
Step 6) ???
Step 7) Profit
Also the soonest that step 2 can be done is by Turn 1 through a number of methods. The soonest that steps 3-7 can be done is Turn 1.
So seeing how UNSets are meant to break the MTG COMP RULES, a clear example is Rules Lawer, then it would stand to this judge that clearly you can use Booster Tutor and Spike to get Conspiracies into your hand, but having no casting cost then you must find another way to play them and it would stand to reason that you place them into the Command Zone once they resolve.
I agree that Spike is capable of putting Conspiracies in your hand, since they've been defined as cards and exist on a ban list, but I'm pretty sure that unless you're goofing, they just flat do nothing but add 1 to your hand size once they're there. They don't just not have a mana cost, they aren't spells or permanents. That said, if the most busted thing you can think to do with Spike is go looking for a Sovereign's Realm to pair with your Fist of Suns, I guess I'm not really rushing to stop you
The list I posted in the other post was done looking at that link, so no Crucible.
BTW, with Spike you can reach 8 mana in turn 2 in EDH: Turn 1: Sol Ring, Turn 2: Spike (paying 4 life), look for Black Lotus, Dark Ritual (16 life). You can play Ugin or something busted like Crow Storm. Or even if there are no other creatures in the battlefield, you can look for Biorhythm and finish the game.
But it was a banned thing in EDH/Commander and got unbanned in 2009. That seems relevant.
BTW, with Spike you can reach 8 mana in turn 2 in EDH: Turn 1: Sol Ring, Turn 2: Spike (paying 4 life), look for Black Lotus, Dark Ritual (16 life). You can play Ugin or something busted like Crow Storm. Or even if there are no other creatures in the battlefield, you can look for Biorhythm and finish the game.
That seems....somewhat slow actually. There's plenty of ways to get a T1 Spike in EDH (Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Gemstone Caverns and so on), and once you've done that, you can just win off her ability. For those with far too much money, 4 activations (for a total of 36 life including the 4 to play her) getting Mox Jet, Black Lotus, Time Vault and Voltaic Key is a win. If you aren't restricting the Wished cards to colour identity (assuming she's your commander) then Lion's Eye Diamond, Flash and Protean Hulk is a somewhat cheaper option if you don't mind having the Hulk combo pieces in your deck.
Can someone clarify this for me. From the reply it sounds like the cards aren't unusable since Ante doesn't "exist", or in other words the cards are still tutorable but will do nothing. For example, Darkpact does basically nothing in a game that isn't being played for Ante. But regardless of that, Ante cards are still banned in Vintage. The Vintage B&R list actually names Ante cards in it. So since they are banned from a format, you can still tutor for them.
Also, the Comp. Rules still talk about Ante cards. Unless I am misunderstanding something, Ante still exists.
407.1. Earlier versions of the Magic rules included an ante rule as a way of playing “for keeps.” Playing Magic games for ante is now considered an optional variation on the game, and it’s allowed only where it’s not forbidden by law or by other rules. Playing for ante is strictly forbidden under the Magic: The Gathering Tournament Rules (WPN.Wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents).
Its optional, like UN-cards. Its forbidden but its not banned/restricted. If you and your friend(s) enable Ante for instance in your kitchen table games, none of the Ante cards are banned/restricted and so Spike can't fetch those cards.
They Ante cards are banned in Vintage. So you can fetch them. But the ante part of the card doesn't work.
Dang, every single Spike I've ever heard of is male (this includes fictional characters who call themselves Spike). Oh well, I guess I'll nickname him/her Toge (Japanese for Spike, seems to be more strongly associated with females--Togemon is female, the Togepi line looks pretty androgynous).
For not-so-broken but much-easier-to-find cards, I've got eight zillion Treasure Cruises I'm itching to tutor for and cast for cheap. (Note that Treasure Cruise is a Common, is dirt common in paper because it's from KTK block, costs less than a buck in several websites, and is banned in Modern and beyond and restricted in Vintage.)
Hmm, I note that MaRo's FAQ... does not include the restricted lists for Commander 1v1 or any other Online formats, and re-reading Spike, she says "Constructed" formats, which may literally be defined as only the formats under that heading on the WotC "Formats" page.
Additionally, he specifically says, "Any list generated by Wizards of the Coast or the Commander Rules Committee." If taken literally, that means cards in the very early days of EDH that only showed up in individual posts about the game would not count...they would have had to have been included in a comprehensive list of bans / restrictions.
Finally, a commander that wins a Commander game on turn 1? Well, this card is silver-bordered for a reason.
I'm not sure what format you do this in... casual silver bordered constructed maybe?
Activate for 4 phyrexian, and get a Lion's Eye Diamond, crack the Diamond+2 Phyrexian to get another LED, do this again to get another LED, then once more to get a Second Sunrise. Cast Second Sunrise and return the 3 LED's to play. Crack 2 LED's for BBBBBB and the other for WWW. Use BBBB to get another Second Sunrise. Repeat as much as you want, you now have infinite mana. Use some of that infinite mana to tutor and cast Upheaval, then tutor and cast a whole bunch of Lodestone Golems. Proceed to have no opponents with a board, and everyone locked out behind taxing effects. Win on your next turn. This requires either 3 mana+10 life or 18 life. If you want to cast Spike at 2 mana it will require +4 life to that total.
Finally, a commander that wins a Commander game on turn 1? Well, this card is silver-bordered for a reason.
I'm not sure what format you do this in... casual silver bordered constructed maybe?
Activate for 4 phyrexian, and get a Lion's Eye Diamond, crack the Diamond+2 Phyrexian to get another LED, do this again to get another LED, then once more to get a Second Sunrise. Cast Second Sunrise and return the 3 LED's to play. Crack 2 LED's for BBBBBB and the other for WWW. Use BBBB to get another Second Sunrise. Repeat as much as you want, you now have infinite mana. Use some of that infinite mana to tutor and cast Upheaval, then tutor and cast a whole bunch of Lodestone Golems. Proceed to have no opponents with a board, and everyone locked out behind taxing effects. Win on your next turn. This requires either 3 mana+10 life or 18 life. If you want to cast Spike at 2 mana it will require +4 life to that total.
Finally, a commander that wins a Commander game on turn 1? Well, this card is silver-bordered for a reason.
I'm not sure what format you do this in... casual silver bordered constructed maybe?
Activate for 4 phyrexian, and get a Lion's Eye Diamond, crack the Diamond+2 Phyrexian to get another LED, do this again to get another LED, then once more to get a Second Sunrise. Cast Second Sunrise and return the 3 LED's to play. Crack 2 LED's for BBBBBB and the other for WWW. Use BBBB to get another Second Sunrise. Repeat as much as you want, you now have infinite mana. Use some of that infinite mana to tutor and cast Upheaval, then tutor and cast a whole bunch of Lodestone Golems. Proceed to have no opponents with a board, and everyone locked out behind taxing effects. Win on your next turn. This requires either 3 mana+10 life or 18 life. If you want to cast Spike at 2 mana it will require +4 life to that total.
Here's hoping you have infinitely many Second Sunrise cards. I will let you borrow from friends; you must have really good friends.
Here's hoping you have infinitely many Second Sunrise cards. I will let you borrow from friends; you must have really good friends.
They cost $1 each. 50 of them nets you 200 mana, which is either 40 lodestone golems or 38 lodestone golems after upheavel. I say infinite as a shortcut there, but even a finite amount works.
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remains in the command zone. Conspiracy cards that aren’t in the game can’t be brought into the game." BUT the DCI B&R List clearly lists that the Conspiracies are on the banned list for Vintage and Legacy. Yet, I will sight MTG COMP RULE 101.1 "Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a)." So seeing how UNSets are meant to break the MTG COMP RULES, a clear example is Rules Lawer, then it would stand to this judge that clearly you can use Booster Tutor and Spike to get Conspiracies into your hand, but having no casting cost then you must find another way to play them and it would stand to reason that you place them into the Command Zone once they resolve.
Step 1) Have rocks/lands/creatures/etc that can produce mana of any color OR can filter mana into any color.
Step 2) Fetch Zuran Orb + Fastbond + Crucible of Worlds
Step 3) Cast the three fetched cards when you have the mana.
Step 4) Gain infinite life
Step 5) Fetch for more banned/restricted cards
Step 6) ???
Step 7) Profit
Also the soonest that step 2 can be done is by Turn 1 through a number of methods. The soonest that steps 3-7 can be done is Turn 1.
Also this is done with commander in mind.
I feel like it's fitting. A good female super villain is always needed, and who better than Spike?
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I agree that Spike is capable of putting Conspiracies in your hand, since they've been defined as cards and exist on a ban list, but I'm pretty sure that unless you're goofing, they just flat do nothing but add 1 to your hand size once they're there. They don't just not have a mana cost, they aren't spells or permanents. That said, if the most busted thing you can think to do with Spike is go looking for a Sovereign's Realm to pair with your Fist of Suns, I guess I'm not really rushing to stop you
also update this post so we don't have to dig please?
That seems....somewhat slow actually. There's plenty of ways to get a T1 Spike in EDH (Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Gemstone Caverns and so on), and once you've done that, you can just win off her ability. For those with far too much money, 4 activations (for a total of 36 life including the 4 to play her) getting Mox Jet, Black Lotus, Time Vault and Voltaic Key is a win. If you aren't restricting the Wished cards to colour identity (assuming she's your commander) then Lion's Eye Diamond, Flash and Protean Hulk is a somewhat cheaper option if you don't mind having the Hulk combo pieces in your deck.
Hey there! I put the list into the first post!
They Ante cards are banned in Vintage. So you can fetch them. But the ante part of the card doesn't work.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
For not-so-broken but much-easier-to-find cards, I've got eight zillion Treasure Cruises I'm itching to tutor for and cast for cheap. (Note that Treasure Cruise is a Common, is dirt common in paper because it's from KTK block, costs less than a buck in several websites, and is banned in Modern and beyond and restricted in Vintage.)
Additionally, he specifically says, "Any list generated by Wizards of the Coast or the Commander Rules Committee." If taken literally, that means cards in the very early days of EDH that only showed up in individual posts about the game would not count...they would have had to have been included in a comprehensive list of bans / restrictions.
I'm not sure what format you do this in... casual silver bordered constructed maybe?
Activate for 4 phyrexian, and get a Lion's Eye Diamond, crack the Diamond+2 Phyrexian to get another LED, do this again to get another LED, then once more to get a Second Sunrise. Cast Second Sunrise and return the 3 LED's to play. Crack 2 LED's for BBBBBB and the other for WWW. Use BBBB to get another Second Sunrise. Repeat as much as you want, you now have infinite mana. Use some of that infinite mana to tutor and cast Upheaval, then tutor and cast a whole bunch of Lodestone Golems. Proceed to have no opponents with a board, and everyone locked out behind taxing effects. Win on your next turn. This requires either 3 mana+10 life or 18 life. If you want to cast Spike at 2 mana it will require +4 life to that total.
My turn, I play The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, go.
Here's hoping you have infinitely many Second Sunrise cards. I will let you borrow from friends; you must have really good friends.
They cost $1 each. 50 of them nets you 200 mana, which is either 40 lodestone golems or 38 lodestone golems after upheavel. I say infinite as a shortcut there, but even a finite amount works.