While it doesn't have the raw power of Mana Drain, it has a lot more interactions with tokens and artifacts, very nice!
The effect is actually strictly better than Mana Drain.
I feel like this card is being undervalued by other posters in this thread,
even though it does cost 5 mana.
There are lots of card interactions which make this more playable than it initially seems.
Among other things, it can win out of nowhere with Revel in Riches.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Bad card that misses the point of all parts of the text is bad.
Hmmmm...care to elaborate here? This card seems perfectly fine.
===
I've run a mean little tempo deck in casual for years now. I think I will be replacing my Plasm Captures with these. The flexibility of Treasure Tokens just seems hellaciously more useful. Nice one, R&D.
Sure can
5 mana is absolutely not where a counterspell wants to be, even if the game is lasting that long, it's going to cost more than MOST threats, which is bad. Your answer needs to cost less than the thing is answers.
5 mana us ENTIRELY too much to be required to hold up, it means most of the time that you really don't have mana for other things.
The other problem is the treasure tokens. That effect is kind of cool, amazing on 2cmc Mana Drain, but on a 5 cost card, how many things are you not going to be able to cast already? It fires off Bolas what, one, two turns early?
I am not saying it won't see Standard play, but compare it to previous vounters, they usually max out at 3 mana. If it sees play, it won't mean it's a good card, it is more likely to mean that it's the kind of toxic environment that makes people quit Standard
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I can't believe no one has mentioned that this creates artifacts that can turn on metalcraft, activate triggers of artifacts etb, saccing artifacts, and a lot more applications then just a Plasm Capture/Mana Drain. This does so much more in the right deck.
Basically this.
It's not a card for every control deck but remember, Force of Will was like this as well. It's a great card, but not the kind of card you can throw in a deck and go. Also.... It too was considered jank by a lot of people.
While it doesn't have the raw power of Mana Drain, it has a lot more interactions with tokens and artifacts, very nice!
The effect is actually strictly better than Mana Drain.
I feel like this card is being undervalued by other posters in this thread,
even though it does cost 5 mana.
There are lots of card interactions which make this more playable than it initially seems.
Among other things, it can win out of nowhere with Revel in Riches.
This is not a strictly better mana drain because it's 3 more mana than mana drain
To be strictly better it has to cost 2 mana to cast.
You fire this thing off in any halfway-competent control build, and your endgame is a lock, whatever your endgame happens to be.
It might as well read, "Ruin your opponent's turn. For the rest of the game, you can cast anything you want and still have mana open to protect yourself."
Of course it's not replacing Spell Pierce, but nobody asked you to make Sophie's Choice here: you can run them both.
The effect is actually strictly better than Mana Drain.
I feel like this card is being undervalued by other posters in this thread,
even though it does cost 5 mana.
There are lots of card interactions which make this more playable than it initially seems.
Among other things, it can win out of nowhere with Revel in Riches.
This is not a strictly better mana drain because it's 3 more mana than mana drain
To be strictly better it has to cost 2 mana to cast.
Hence why I said the effect is strictly better,
and not the entire card
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Bad card that misses the point of all parts of the text is bad.
Hmmmm...care to elaborate here? This card seems perfectly fine.
===
I've run a mean little tempo deck in casual for years now. I think I will be replacing my Plasm Captures with these. The flexibility of Treasure Tokens just seems hellaciously more useful. Nice one, R&D.
Sure can
5 mana is absolutely not where a counterspell wants to be, even if the game is lasting that long, it's going to cost more than MOST threats, which is bad. Your answer needs to cost less than the thing is answers.
5 mana us ENTIRELY too much to be required to hold up, it means most of the time that you really don't have mana for other things.
I wouldn't normally disagree but I think you just need to build around this one a bit. Top tier deck? No, we agree probably not, but you can certainly build a variety of decent , or deck that capitalizes on having extra artifacts in play.
Quote from Melkor »
The other problem is the treasure tokens. That effect is kind of cool, amazing on 2cmc Mana Drain, but on a 5 cost card, how many things are you not going to be able to cast already? It fires off Bolas what, one, two turns early?
This feels a bit unfair. They're just different. I mean, there's certainly benefit to paying 2 mana for your tempo-counter, but you also get some real drawbacks: only and only use it right now. For 3 more mana, you don't just get Mana Drain you get any color mana and you can use it at a time of your choosing. Which one's 'better'? I can't really say.
Is this 'better' than Plasm Capture? I think definitely yes..way easier, colorwise, and again, you get to use the mana when you want to. There will be times when you're missing your fifth mana but in nearly every case, this is an improvement over Plasm Capture.
I am not saying it won't see Standard play, but compare it to previous vounters, they usually max out at 3 mana. If it sees play, it won't mean it's a good card, it is more likely to mean that it's the kind of toxic environment that makes people quit Standard
I doubt it will see much Standard play but with Revel in Riches floating around, I wouldn't completely rule it out. (Although no one made much of Mechanized Production w/Clues or Servos either. Maybe now's the time or maybe we see nothing...
I just don't think this card is a complete failure. In fact, I think it's rather well-costed and balanced. Would I have preferred 4 cmc instead? Sure. Do I still want to test this out in a tempo deck? Yes, absolutely!
A friend of mine sent me a text that he wants to try Spell Swindle in a Metalwork Colossus deck. If you get to the point where you can cast the colossus for free (which isn't all that difficult to do), you can counter your own spell, get 11 Treasure tokens for your trouble, then sacrifice two tokens to get the colossus back into your hand and cast it for free again. Net gain is 9 treasure tokens and an 10/10 for the investment of 3UU.
A friend of mine sent me a text that he wants to try Spell Swindle in a Metalwork Colossus deck. If you get to the point where you can cast the colossus for free (which isn't all that difficult to do), you can counter your own spell, get 11 Treasure tokens for your trouble, then sacrifice two tokens to get the colossus back into your hand and cast it for free again. Net gain is 9 treasure tokens and an 10/10 for the investment of 3UU.
This will be interesting, but losing Sanctum of Ugin is going to hurt the resiliency of this deck. I'd rather counter the Colossus while having Revel in Riches out to auto-win on my next upkeep.
This will be interesting, but losing Sanctum of Ugin is going to hurt the resiliency of this deck. I'd rather counter the Colossus while having Revel in Riches out to auto-win on my next upkeep.
So would I, but my friend doesn't keep up with the spoilers like I do so he doesn't know about that card. Losing Sanctum could be ameliorated by trying to use Whir of Invention since you can use the Treasure tokens for improvise but that takes more cards and more set-up. If you are using black for Revel you could also use Marionette Master--use the fabricate to put the counters on it then start sacrificing treasure tokens at 4 life each.
I never liked the Colossus deck--sure, I lost to it a few times but I beat it more often than not. It just seemed to be too much of a glass cannon to me--either you got the colossus on turn 5 and you were winning or you had a handful of useless artifacts and you sat there losing.
I like this card in EDH. I see all the hate on 5 color spells and wonder if anyone forgot Mystical Confluence? I does 3 things, but most cases its a gamble on the card draw or slowing down opponents. I need mana to counter and the bonus of having a crap load more next turn to go infinite is very appealing. I will pick up a few as its a combo enabler. Hate one....while I catch you by surprise.
If you have five mana and can counter something with a CMC of 3 or higher, this is strictly better than Mana Drain, but only in that particular situation. Ideally by then you're likely to be using this against big threats anyway, and as such this is pretty much free (but situational) mana fixing. I personally like it.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'm a bit skeptical of this in EDH. It's arguably "equal" to Mana Drain in some ways (mainly because by the time you want to use these counters in particular to counter something you probably have 5 mana anyway), but at the same time during the few times I see Mana Drain in action, it has a good chance of being countered by a third party because the potential burst of mana is just too risky compared to the known threat it is countering (which usually is just some big spell). I haven't seen Plasm Capture much to judge it (for obvious color requirement reasons) but I wouldn't imagine it would be much better.
This has the artifact and token advantage on top of it, which paints a bigger target on itself. At the very least Mana Drain can be used earlier for less likelihood to get countered and use the extra bit of mana, while this outright demands "go big or go home!" and in counterspell-weary metas, not exactly the most attractive of options.
Not saying it's bad by any measure (probably one of the best among the big counterspells, although it will attract more attention because of that), but it's a lot more meta-dependent and "narrow" then Mana Drain even if their technical effects could potentially ignore the difference in their casting costs.
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I see what you did there... cuz Clue tokens will be rotating out.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
The effect is actually strictly better than Mana Drain.
I feel like this card is being undervalued by other posters in this thread,
even though it does cost 5 mana.
There are lots of card interactions which make this more playable than it initially seems.
Among other things, it can win out of nowhere with Revel in Riches.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Sure can
5 mana is absolutely not where a counterspell wants to be, even if the game is lasting that long, it's going to cost more than MOST threats, which is bad. Your answer needs to cost less than the thing is answers.
5 mana us ENTIRELY too much to be required to hold up, it means most of the time that you really don't have mana for other things.
The other problem is the treasure tokens. That effect is kind of cool, amazing on 2cmc Mana Drain, but on a 5 cost card, how many things are you not going to be able to cast already? It fires off Bolas what, one, two turns early?
I am not saying it won't see Standard play, but compare it to previous vounters, they usually max out at 3 mana. If it sees play, it won't mean it's a good card, it is more likely to mean that it's the kind of toxic environment that makes people quit Standard
Basically this.
It's not a card for every control deck but remember, Force of Will was like this as well. It's a great card, but not the kind of card you can throw in a deck and go. Also.... It too was considered jank by a lot of people.
Time will tell if this card proves itself.
No one expected the pirate inquisition.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
This is not a strictly better mana drain because it's 3 more mana than mana drain
To be strictly better it has to cost 2 mana to cast.
You fire this thing off in any halfway-competent control build, and your endgame is a lock, whatever your endgame happens to be.
It might as well read, "Ruin your opponent's turn. For the rest of the game, you can cast anything you want and still have mana open to protect yourself."
Of course it's not replacing Spell Pierce, but nobody asked you to make Sophie's Choice here: you can run them both.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Hence why I said the effect is strictly better,
and not the entire card
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I wouldn't normally disagree but I think you just need to build around this one a bit. Top tier deck? No, we agree probably not, but you can certainly build a variety of decent , or deck that capitalizes on having extra artifacts in play.
This feels a bit unfair. They're just different. I mean, there's certainly benefit to paying 2 mana for your tempo-counter, but you also get some real drawbacks: only and only use it right now. For 3 more mana, you don't just get Mana Drain you get any color mana and you can use it at a time of your choosing. Which one's 'better'? I can't really say.
Is this 'better' than Plasm Capture? I think definitely yes..way easier, colorwise, and again, you get to use the mana when you want to. There will be times when you're missing your fifth mana but in nearly every case, this is an improvement over Plasm Capture.
I doubt it will see much Standard play but with Revel in Riches floating around, I wouldn't completely rule it out. (Although no one made much of Mechanized Production w/Clues or Servos either. Maybe now's the time or maybe we see nothing...
I just don't think this card is a complete failure. In fact, I think it's rather well-costed and balanced. Would I have preferred 4 cmc instead? Sure. Do I still want to test this out in a tempo deck? Yes, absolutely!
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This will be interesting, but losing Sanctum of Ugin is going to hurt the resiliency of this deck. I'd rather counter the Colossus while having Revel in Riches out to auto-win on my next upkeep.
So would I, but my friend doesn't keep up with the spoilers like I do so he doesn't know about that card. Losing Sanctum could be ameliorated by trying to use Whir of Invention since you can use the Treasure tokens for improvise but that takes more cards and more set-up. If you are using black for Revel you could also use Marionette Master--use the fabricate to put the counters on it then start sacrificing treasure tokens at 4 life each.
I never liked the Colossus deck--sure, I lost to it a few times but I beat it more often than not. It just seemed to be too much of a glass cannon to me--either you got the colossus on turn 5 and you were winning or you had a handful of useless artifacts and you sat there losing.
Was mentioned in the first page.
It still has the problem of being really bad against aggro, which the previous standard was full of.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
I thought "bad Mana Drain". It's colored mana, and you don't have to use it right away, but it costs five mana, which is a lot for a counterspell.
Doesn't force green like Plasm Capture either.
On phasing:
This has the artifact and token advantage on top of it, which paints a bigger target on itself. At the very least Mana Drain can be used earlier for less likelihood to get countered and use the extra bit of mana, while this outright demands "go big or go home!" and in counterspell-weary metas, not exactly the most attractive of options.
Not saying it's bad by any measure (probably one of the best among the big counterspells, although it will attract more attention because of that), but it's a lot more meta-dependent and "narrow" then Mana Drain even if their technical effects could potentially ignore the difference in their casting costs.