This is what I don't like about these masters sets. They just spam the heck out of all the chase cards and people who don't know any better go diving at the boxes like wolves, then open a bunch of forgettable commons and uncommons with maybe a few decent rares and mythics, which they pray will be the ones they are looking for. The commons and uncommons are the bread and butter of a set: If they can't make those appealing to players and need to lean so much on mythics and rares to sell it they royally blew it, and the one card that stands out so far that I've seen has been Lightning Helix in that regard. Well, they have Swords to Plowshares as well, but then there are things like Balustrade Spy, Sandstone Oracle, Seeker of the Way, Pillar of Flame, etc.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I'm mostly glad to see that Soul Sisters finally got the reprints it needed to get back to being a budget deck. They literally hit every single expensive card that deck was running.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Guys, just remember, they were making this set with draft in mind (at least, one would hope so). So if they threw in there all the cards which were considered "iconic" through Magic's history, regardless of color, type or manacost, it would become a strange mishmash of cards. I doubd it would be particularly draftable. So, I guess, that was a weighted decision.
This is true to some extent, and if they really wanted to cater to "Iconic" cards there are some that would have to be left out because they have to be built around (Psychatog, Astral Slide pieces), but a lot of Magics iconic cards (especially early in the game's history) were good because of their value. Cards like Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, Savannah Lions, Diabolic Edict, Black Knight, Manowar, Jackal Pup, Giant Growth, etc aren't cards that need to be built around. In a draft format they slot into pretty much anything you are building that contains the color (provided it isn't a splash in the case of a few of the double colored mana cards), because they are straight efficiency.
Guys, just remember, they were making this set with draft in mind...
Eternal Masters has forever ruined that excuse. It's full to the brim with great commons that actually see Eternal play and the draft experience was one of the best ever. The RTR-KTK trash has no reason to be here when they could have printed any of the hundreds of inexpensive commons that do see play and are impossible to get NM nowadays because they haven't been reprinted in more than a decade.
Is this the only Masters set not to have any planeswalkers? That's disappointing.
I notice a distinct lack of extra turn cards as well. Time Warp isn't iconic enough?
I think people are right. This set gives every indication that Wizards really didn't care about how iconic or desired most things were, given the sheer number of obvious omissions (and several things that already got a recent reprint in MM3 or C17).
So now that the dust has settled mostly, I'll give my thoughts about this set.
First, Iconic Masters is a terrible name for this set imo. This is more like EDH Masters. While obviously a lot of the cards have impact in Modern, Legacy, and even Vintage, I feel like the bulk of what's been shown is best suited for EDH. I also feel Iconic Masters isn't a great name when cards like Birds of Paradise, Lightning Bolt, Griselbrand, and Demonic Tutor aren't in the set. The fact Demonic Tutor and Lightning Bolt aren't in the set shocks me more than anything, as they're two of the most iconic cards in the history of the game. I feel like the name and the way they marketed the set is a bit misleading, though the set itself I think was handled very well.
One thing I'm thrilled about is the rare land cycle. Rather than do something like the shocklands, which would've been really feelsbad in a set called Iconic Masters, they reprinted the entire Future Sight rare lands, and all of them have decent value, with the two heavy hitters having incredible value, and this is in the rare slot. While they may not be iconic, they still have plenty of value and the top 3 have real gameplay implications.
Obviously, there's been a lot that was missed, but that's to be expected. I wish they would've just called this Eternal Masters 2.
The big question now is how they'll handled Masters 25. If they don't print Rishadan Port in that, I'm gonna be absolutely furious. As a MTGO player, its price is freaking ridiculous at this point, just totally unacceptable and after being snubbed in both EMA and IMA, I really hope they don't snub it again in M25, though knowing WotC, it'll be mythic.
Nah, Rishadan will get reprinted as an uncommon. It's good, but not that good.
This is what I don't like about these masters sets. They just spam the heck out of all the chase cards and people who don't know any better go diving at the boxes like wolves, then open a bunch of forgettable commons and uncommons with maybe a few decent rares and mythics, which they pray will be the ones they are looking for.
Just so you know at current prices BEFORE foils the set EV is like 370 dollars a box. Even if you assume it destroys prices on the more casual mythics/rares this set is going to be closer to MM1 than 2015 or 2017. MASSIVE value just opening boxes here. And thats before foils. I also assumed the thoughtseize would be priced like Theros TS not Lorwyn, etc. Drain at 150... could be more or less. Hard to say. Even calling it 50 bucks doesnt hurt the EV much
I for one will be ordering a case... Possibly opening a box or two. Possibly just saving them as investments. Should be a great set to hold for long term VALUE like MM 1
You must be selectively remembering your own posts. It was you right, posting the gif of the table flip?
That was my point. It's not adding anything to the discussion. You'd have been better off not saying anything, or maybe having a go at phrasing your opinion in a critical, useful way wherever possible.
I always find it curious that people take such issue with complaints and criticisms about spoiled sets "not adding anything to the discussion" but have no problem with the endless completely worthless "OMG THIS CARD IS IN THE SET I NEED TO BUY A BOX RIGHT NOW!!!!" posts.
Well let's be honest, naive empty negativity, there because someone just wants to vent and doesn't really have a filter, is harmful.
The same can't really be said for naive excitement and positivity.
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious? These aren't two sides of the same coin, they have different social effects entirely.
Anyway that's that.
I'm excited that aether vial is seeing a reprint. I already have mine, but as a card that's always had immense casual interest it'll be great for more people to get their hands on them
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Whats with all the love for Bladewing in these recent releases?
MiOcDoEnRiNc Masters 2017.1!
And in closing, that really dumb purchase to buy a Expedition Fetchland and then trade that for a playset of Groves is looking even dumber. What will it drop to, $10 a piece?
Post-Script! I did play some EDH today with a guy who did not have a foil Windfall. Because there was no foil Windfall. Until this set. I hope he is super excited about this news as much as I am. about seeing Genesis Wave in it. Which is a card I saw the brutal power of and gained some interest in during same game.
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Wanted -Zombie Foils and older expensive Zombie stuff. High Priority- Beta Z Master/ Int. Collector's Edition.
What I find amusing is that although yes it has many good rares and mythics along with some uncommons and commons. The majority of the commons and uncommons so far have been not as powerful. I wonder if this is there new tactic to keep the packs more affordable.
Oh yeah, please tell me in how many decks that so needed reprint will slot in.
It is not just about which list you are others are running now. Vintage is dead yes but Commander is not and is arguably the most popular format right now. Commander lists are not running Drain because it is a super high dollar card. When the price goes down and people have access it will be in literally tons of EDH decks. You tell me how many blue based EDH decks don't want Mana Drain?
Just like everyone is running mana crypt after the printing of eternal masters right? It sure dropped in price and helped everyone get the card and... oh wait.
It dropped from a 150 dollar card to a 60 dollar card. And it was increeeedibly rare before. Can't see how this will make the card more affordable for the everyday commander player.
So you are both complaining that this reprint is not needed (not slotting in existing decks) and that it is not enough (not pushing the price down enough)? Way to play both sides of the issue.
Even if the first reprint doesn't allow anyone and their cat to afford the card, there are two benefits: a) Some people will gladly grab a card with a 60% price decrease; b) there needs to be a first reprint before a second reprint allowing for cumulative effects.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Looking over the set I can see that the usual Masters curse is in play here. We see all of the amazing stuff up front and then the last 85-90% is oh so bad.
1. Why are most of the cards seemingly from Zendikar-Innistrad forward? Yes, there are some older cards, but they are certainly in the minority. I suppose Innistrad forward is far more "iconic" than many before that.
2. There are not many noticeable cards below rare, and that's not even talking about value. The most noticeable cards I can see among commons/uncommons is Rift Bolt, Lightning Helix, Wall of Roots(?), Mishra's Bauble, Thran Dynamo, and.....that's about it unless you have a personal preference towards any other card(s).
2a. Value goes along with #2. There is not much there to be had below rare and mythic. I think Bauble and Dynamo are probably it when it comes to value.
3. Some of the rares are rather groan worthy. Did we, or this limited format, really need another Sphinx of Uthuun or yet another printing of the Ravnica karoos? A personal gripe is yet again Swords to Plowshares and not Path to Exile.
4. I don't know much about Pauper, but there doesn't seem to be anything all that great that was bumped down to common.
5. Most of the notable dragon related cards being printed here were printed in the recent Commander set, making some of these reprints unneeded and redundant.
6 Extra. I honestly can't see some of the draft themes. I can see +1/+1 counters, dragons, and defenders, but that's about it.
Overall this set looks to have the same quality as Eternal Masters, possibly worse, and that was barely better than MM2, the worst Masters set yet.
Right now I would most likely rank them as. MM1 > MM3 > EMA = IMA > MM2.
This is not even close to angel/sphinx/demon/dragon/hydra focused they are there just not much
I am thrilled the praetors are In this i mean the whole cycle is definately iconic they were getting expensive and elesh norn and vorniclex just started to drop innprice right now
This is what I don't like about these masters sets. They just spam the heck out of all the chase cards and people who don't know any better go diving at the boxes like wolves, then open a bunch of forgettable commons and uncommons with maybe a few decent rares and mythics, which they pray will be the ones they are looking for.
Just so you know at current prices BEFORE foils the set EV is like 370 dollars a box. Even if you assume it destroys prices on the more casual mythics/rares this set is going to be closer to MM1 than 2015 or 2017. MASSIVE value just opening boxes here. And thats before foils. I also assumed the thoughtseize would be priced like Theros TS not Lorwyn, etc. Drain at 150... could be more or less. Hard to say. Even calling it 50 bucks doesnt hurt the EV much
I for one will be ordering a case... Possibly opening a box or two. Possibly just saving them as investments. Should be a great set to hold for long term VALUE like MM 1
That's the problem, though. It's not about the monetary value that makes a set good, it's about getting a set of cards that work well together that you likely can utilize to build an effective deck and play on an even playing field with other players. Mythics and rares are great, but there is a good reason long term players have now gone to the secondary market almost exclusively for constructed play. There is just no reason to spend money on a booster box when the single sellers are the only ones with the ability and financial backing to crack enough boxes to hit the cards people want. How much better of a chance as a player would you have to pull those amazing build around cards if the box prices were 120 msrp? Now someone who saved 500 dollars would get twice as many packs to open and likely will have a fair shot of getting those cards, since they are now opening four Iconic masters 24 pack boxes instead of just two. It also helps the singles sellers since they can turn way more profit on those boxes and get more singles out there, as the demand on these higher end bomb cards are pretty big.
I still don't know what the best answer is for the support cards that show up at lower rarities and can be interchangeable at times. Contrary to deck lists on the internet, there are a lot of alternatives in uncommons these days that have various ups and downs to them. Not sure about commons because I don't think I have any outside of things that got upshifted later.
Also, you are talking about "retaining value" on a booster box that is going to be valued based on the cards in the set. That is a horrible idea. The only booster boxes that are probably worth sitting on are the older sealed boxes that are valued on scarcity. Anyone who is going into this trying to buy pallets to invest in is going to get burned to the ground.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think they actually hit the right cards. The majority of players playing today never got to use the older cards from pre-modern days and many started at the twilight days of Scars block going into Innistrad -> RTR -> Theros. The older cards they threw in there are ones that keep getting a lot of spot lights put on them by various media such as deck lists. What I'm most surprised by is the lack of the Theros god cards. I was expecting to see them in the set because despite their lower MSRP they are pretty popular.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Doubt it. Unlike Rishadan Port, the other cards you listed are actually really, really, good.
Actually, Rishadan Port is at least on par with all of them.
Nah, it lost a lot of power with the sixth edition change, and more when mana burn got removed. You're basically mana depleting yourself to reduce your opponents mana by one for a turn, and that is if they don't chose to cast an instant in response. It's an over valued card that isn't all that good.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
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Where are the Llanowar Elves? What about Pongify or Mana Tithe?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
" Beauty is eternal... so long as it is love...", Romantic,
" WTF!!!", Deranged Hermit
Interesting observation,
and possibly a clue that 25 Masters will have several PW's.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is true to some extent, and if they really wanted to cater to "Iconic" cards there are some that would have to be left out because they have to be built around (Psychatog, Astral Slide pieces), but a lot of Magics iconic cards (especially early in the game's history) were good because of their value. Cards like Lightning Bolt, Counterspell, Savannah Lions, Diabolic Edict, Black Knight, Manowar, Jackal Pup, Giant Growth, etc aren't cards that need to be built around. In a draft format they slot into pretty much anything you are building that contains the color (provided it isn't a splash in the case of a few of the double colored mana cards), because they are straight efficiency.
And we will most likely get clean up versions of the images on Monday.
I notice a distinct lack of extra turn cards as well. Time Warp isn't iconic enough?
I think people are right. This set gives every indication that Wizards really didn't care about how iconic or desired most things were, given the sheer number of obvious omissions (and several things that already got a recent reprint in MM3 or C17).
Nah, Rishadan will get reprinted as an uncommon. It's good, but not that good.
According to MaRo, we should get the complete Iconic Masters card gallery early next week, most likely Monday.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Just so you know at current prices BEFORE foils the set EV is like 370 dollars a box. Even if you assume it destroys prices on the more casual mythics/rares this set is going to be closer to MM1 than 2015 or 2017. MASSIVE value just opening boxes here. And thats before foils. I also assumed the thoughtseize would be priced like Theros TS not Lorwyn, etc. Drain at 150... could be more or less. Hard to say. Even calling it 50 bucks doesnt hurt the EV much
I for one will be ordering a case... Possibly opening a box or two. Possibly just saving them as investments. Should be a great set to hold for long term VALUE like MM 1
If Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Cavern of Souls, Snapcaster Mage, and Argothian Enchantress are all mythic then so will Rishadan Port. Not because it's powerful, but because it has a big price tag.
Doubt it. Unlike Rishadan Port, the other cards you listed are actually really, really, good.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Well let's be honest, naive empty negativity, there because someone just wants to vent and doesn't really have a filter, is harmful.
The same can't really be said for naive excitement and positivity.
I'd have thought that was fairly obvious? These aren't two sides of the same coin, they have different social effects entirely.
Anyway that's that.
I'm excited that aether vial is seeing a reprint. I already have mine, but as a card that's always had immense casual interest it'll be great for more people to get their hands on them
MiOcDoEnRiNc Masters 2017.1!
And in closing, that really dumb purchase to buy a Expedition Fetchland and then trade that for a playset of Groves is looking even dumber. What will it drop to, $10 a piece?
Post-Script! I did play some EDH today with a guy who did not have a foil Windfall. Because there was no foil Windfall. Until this set. I hope he is super excited about this news as much as I am. about seeing Genesis Wave in it. Which is a card I saw the brutal power of and gained some interest in during same game.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
So you are both complaining that this reprint is not needed (not slotting in existing decks) and that it is not enough (not pushing the price down enough)? Way to play both sides of the issue.
Even if the first reprint doesn't allow anyone and their cat to afford the card, there are two benefits: a) Some people will gladly grab a card with a 60% price decrease; b) there needs to be a first reprint before a second reprint allowing for cumulative effects.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
1. Why are most of the cards seemingly from Zendikar-Innistrad forward? Yes, there are some older cards, but they are certainly in the minority. I suppose Innistrad forward is far more "iconic" than many before that.
2. There are not many noticeable cards below rare, and that's not even talking about value. The most noticeable cards I can see among commons/uncommons is Rift Bolt, Lightning Helix, Wall of Roots(?), Mishra's Bauble, Thran Dynamo, and.....that's about it unless you have a personal preference towards any other card(s).
2a. Value goes along with #2. There is not much there to be had below rare and mythic. I think Bauble and Dynamo are probably it when it comes to value.
3. Some of the rares are rather groan worthy. Did we, or this limited format, really need another Sphinx of Uthuun or yet another printing of the Ravnica karoos? A personal gripe is yet again Swords to Plowshares and not Path to Exile.
4. I don't know much about Pauper, but there doesn't seem to be anything all that great that was bumped down to common.
5. Most of the notable dragon related cards being printed here were printed in the recent Commander set, making some of these reprints unneeded and redundant.
6 Extra. I honestly can't see some of the draft themes. I can see +1/+1 counters, dragons, and defenders, but that's about it.
Overall this set looks to have the same quality as Eternal Masters, possibly worse, and that was barely better than MM2, the worst Masters set yet.
Right now I would most likely rank them as. MM1 > MM3 > EMA = IMA > MM2.
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
They also lied to use
This is not even close to angel/sphinx/demon/dragon/hydra focused they are there just not much
I am thrilled the praetors are In this i mean the whole cycle is definately iconic they were getting expensive and elesh norn and vorniclex just started to drop innprice right now
So far elesh norn lost $5 vorniclex lost $3
That's the problem, though. It's not about the monetary value that makes a set good, it's about getting a set of cards that work well together that you likely can utilize to build an effective deck and play on an even playing field with other players. Mythics and rares are great, but there is a good reason long term players have now gone to the secondary market almost exclusively for constructed play. There is just no reason to spend money on a booster box when the single sellers are the only ones with the ability and financial backing to crack enough boxes to hit the cards people want. How much better of a chance as a player would you have to pull those amazing build around cards if the box prices were 120 msrp? Now someone who saved 500 dollars would get twice as many packs to open and likely will have a fair shot of getting those cards, since they are now opening four Iconic masters 24 pack boxes instead of just two. It also helps the singles sellers since they can turn way more profit on those boxes and get more singles out there, as the demand on these higher end bomb cards are pretty big.
I still don't know what the best answer is for the support cards that show up at lower rarities and can be interchangeable at times. Contrary to deck lists on the internet, there are a lot of alternatives in uncommons these days that have various ups and downs to them. Not sure about commons because I don't think I have any outside of things that got upshifted later.
Also, you are talking about "retaining value" on a booster box that is going to be valued based on the cards in the set. That is a horrible idea. The only booster boxes that are probably worth sitting on are the older sealed boxes that are valued on scarcity. Anyone who is going into this trying to buy pallets to invest in is going to get burned to the ground.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They are missing SO many iconic magic cards...
I think they actually hit the right cards. The majority of players playing today never got to use the older cards from pre-modern days and many started at the twilight days of Scars block going into Innistrad -> RTR -> Theros. The older cards they threw in there are ones that keep getting a lot of spot lights put on them by various media such as deck lists. What I'm most surprised by is the lack of the Theros god cards. I was expecting to see them in the set because despite their lower MSRP they are pretty popular.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Nah, it lost a lot of power with the sixth edition change, and more when mana burn got removed. You're basically mana depleting yourself to reduce your opponents mana by one for a turn, and that is if they don't chose to cast an instant in response. It's an over valued card that isn't all that good.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.