Commander 2017 is like a photographer waiting an entire year for the red carpet at the Grammys hoping to see Christina Aguilera, Gaga and Adele only to get an endless parade of Z-list celebrities from the 70's strolling in on canes.
7 out of 16 legends in Commander 2017 are random legends, and the other 9 were established characters. That's more than half. In Commander 2016, 7 out of 20 were random legends and another 3 were literally names from flavor texts that they made cards for (Akiri, Bruse, and Thrasios), so only half of the cards were for truly established characters. In Commander 2015, there were only 4 established characters out of 10 legends, and that's if I'm being generous and counting Karlov (who technically a different Karlov than the one that appeared in the original Ravnica novels).
Don't get me wrong, I want to see less random legends and more established characters in Commander sets too. But this is far from the Commander set in that regard, and it's arguably the best since Commander 2014. At least for this set they didn't completely butcher any characters like they did for Ludevic in C16.
I think that part of the problem was that the dragon deck got leaked first. The dragon deck was the only deck to feature all established characters. The other three had more random legends than established characters. So seeing the dragon deck first gave us high hopes for the other decks, and during spoiler season most of the legends that were new to us (ones that hadn't been leaked) were random legends. It gave the illusion of this set being heavy on random legends, when in reality it's about the same as C16 and much better than C15.
Yeah, the leak set high hopes and standards for the others. But at the same time, it's a no-brainer that if Edgar Markov could make it into Vampires, and rightfully so, that Anje and Runo would be considered for example, and more than one Wizard (two if we count Taigam a second time) for Wizards. Cats really was the only deck with an excuse to have randoms. The worst offender is the Wizard deck, considering that's probably the longest list in terms of tribe for cardless characters. The Wizard deck for me is the greatest disappointment as my favorite tribe falling so horribly flat.
It's fine. Taigam alone is a big deal, since he ranked #1 as the most highly desired character. Had he not been spoiled, I'm sure many of this product's shortcomings would have been overlooked with his reveal. That said, it's another example of the Dragon deck delivering, which it did - big time. The contrast with the others not delivering is what's so alarming. If all 4 had been as quality as the Dragon deck, I wouldn't have reason to be critical at all. But the Dragon deck is indeed a sign of progress in and of itself. I must remember that these are made far in advance, so we're talking 2015 here. The character poll was October 2015, so next year may show even more improvement.
C16 and C17 are equally good for me, but C16 was good across all decks, this year I'm only feeling one, and that imbalance feels like there was a disconnect somewhere.
She is a dissident, which implies some form of established order she is against. Is there anything like that on Grixis? As far as I know, there is just a bunch of power-hungry beings trying to kill each other. I think Equilor is more likely.
On Grixis? No, unless you count kill all living things and absorb their life energy/raise them as your minions/recycle their flesh as an "established order". The few living humans still there have to hide and live in fear, become necromancers or become demon servants.
Anyway, I wonder how she'll be built. Will it be a spellslinger-type thing, or more control?
I'm thinking she will be built like a grindy, lite-spellslingy, heavier control type of thing. She is basically a Karador, Ghost Chieftain for Instants and Sorceries, so maybe it will feel like that? Pretty open-ended/goodstuff-y design here.
This one gets some mileage out of spells with rebound. Now you'd just have to decide if any of them are worth putting in your deck over (most likely) more powerful one-offs.
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COMMANDER DECKS
Gishath, Sun's Avatar
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Surrak Presents: Snow-where to Run (A Temur Production)
Zurgo - Mardu Warrior Tribal
Gisa and Geralf
Jhoira's Artifacts
She's disgustingly good. Flashback every turn means you don't have to play many expensive spells to get a big effect.
Double Brainstorm for UU?
Double Lightning Bolt for RR?
Double Fatal Push for BB?
Having cheap spells means you can keep open mana for disruptions, counters. Every spell in your yard is like your hand, on top of having a full grip of cards. She might be the best new commander out of this set.
I was hoping against hope with a huge long shot that a crossover would occur with a certain legendary vampire wizard from homelands, since his castle is grixis. I knew it wouldn't happen but man it would have been incredible.
She's disgustingly good. Flashback every turn means you don't have to play many expensive spells to get a big effect.
Double Brainstorm for UU?
Double Lightning Bolt for RR?
Double Fatal Push for BB?
Having cheap spells means you can keep open mana for disruptions, counters. Every spell in your yard is like your hand, on top of having a full grip of cards. She might be the best new commander out of this set.
If you're saying "keep open mana for disruption, counters" referring to using disruption and counters using her ability, you can't counter or use anything in your yard on opponent's turns. That is why she might not be so great.
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"People are the worst. The worst thing about music is that people play it." - Mike Patton
If every legend that didnt have a card that has enough info to make a decent card on was put into commander products they'd run out way to fast. Besides you'd probably end up getting a lot of Ludevics who are there in name and image but not in mechanics.
Also Grixis lady here is solid. Constant flashback is nice.
She is a dissident, which implies some form of established order she is against. Is there anything like that on Grixis? As far as I know, there is just a bunch of power-hungry beings trying to kill each other. I think Equilor is more likely.
On Grixis? No, unless you count kill all living things and absorb their life energy/raise them as your minions/recycle their flesh as an "established order". The few living humans still there have to hide and live in fear, become necromancers or become demon servants.
She could originally be from another shard, having "picked up" one or two other/additional colors in Grixis. She could also be from post-Conflux Alara.
Commander 2017 is like a photographer waiting an entire year for the red carpet at the Grammys hoping to see Christina Aguilera, Gaga and Adele only to get an endless parade of Z-list celebrities from the 70's strolling in on canes.
7 out of 16 legends in Commander 2017 are random legends, and the other 9 were established characters. That's more than half. In Commander 2016, 7 out of 20 were random legends and another 3 were literally names from flavor texts that they made cards for (Akiri, Bruse, and Thrasios), so only half of the cards were for truly established characters. In Commander 2015, there were only 4 established characters out of 10 legends, and that's if I'm being generous and counting Karlov (who technically a different Karlov than the one that appeared in the original Ravnica novels).
Don't get me wrong, I want to see less random legends and more established characters in Commander sets too. But this is far from the Commander set in that regard, and it's arguably the best since Commander 2014. At least for this set they didn't completely butcher any characters like they did for Ludevic in C16.
I think that part of the problem was that the dragon deck got leaked first. The dragon deck was the only deck to feature all established characters. The other three had more random legends than established characters. So seeing the dragon deck first gave us high hopes for the other decks, and during spoiler season most of the legends that were new to us (ones that hadn't been leaked) were random legends. It gave the illusion of this set being heavy on random legends, when in reality it's about the same as C16 and much better than C15.
Yeah, the leak set high hopes and standards for the others. But at the same time, it's a no-brainer that if Edgar Markov could make it into Vampires, and rightfully so, that Anje and Runo would be considered for example,
To be fair, Runo probably was considered but not chosen because his association with the sea god implies that he is partially blue, while Anje may not have been considered at all because they had already started working on the decks before people started to want an Anje Falkenrath card.
and more than one Wizard (two if we count Taigam a second time) for Wizards. Cats really was the only deck with an excuse to have randoms.
True, although we still could have seen Marisi. Or a compleated version of Kemba, like Ezuri's appearance in C15.
The worst offender is the Wizard deck, considering that's probably the longest list in terms of tribe for cardless characters. The Wizard deck for me is the greatest disappointment as my favorite tribe falling so horribly flat.
Agreed. "Wizard" is such a broad description that there are so many characters that could possibly be given the card type. To think that they had to make up not one, but two new wizards is baffling. I'm also kind of annoyed that all the wizards have the same typeline: human wizard. Yeah, yeah, humans are relatable, but they're also boring, so you have to get the right balance, which 100% humans is not. The two that were preexisting characters get a pass, but the other two had no reason to be humans, especially Kess because she's one of those inexplicably flying humans that shouldn't even exist because Magic has humanoid races that can fly, aven and vampires for example.
It's fine. Taigam alone is a big deal, since he ranked #1 as the most highly desired character. Had he not been spoiled, I'm sure many of this product's shortcomings would have been overlooked with his reveal.
Yeah, if you compare this set's most popular cardless character that got a card (Taigam) to last year's (Ludevic), I think Taigam would win out even for just popularity alone, and definitely for how his cards were designed compared to Ludevic's.
That said, it's another example of the Dragon deck delivering, which it did - big time. The contrast with the others not delivering is what's so alarming. If all 4 had been as quality as the Dragon deck, I wouldn't have reason to be critical at all. But the Dragon deck is indeed a sign of progress in and of itself. I must remember that these are made far in advance, so we're talking 2015 here. The character poll was October 2015, so next year may show even more improvement.
C16 and C17 are equally good for me, but C16 was good across all decks, this year I'm only feeling one, and that imbalance feels like there was a disconnect somewhere.
If you're talking about Vorthos appeal, the BRGW deck in C16 was by far the weakest. It had exclusively new characters, two of which were at least clearly from Theros but the other two weren't even given planes at all. The RGWU deck was the best, having Kynaios and Tiro (the only face card that wasn't completely new), Ludevic (even though his card was bad, people still really wanted the card), and Sidar Kondo (the only legend in C16 that comes from older lore, C17 has a lot more of those tbh). The other ones were all ok, WUBR had Silas Renn, UBRG had Kydele (and Vial Smasher), and GWUB didn't have any prominent characters but it had three minor characters from Tarkir that at least had story roles.
In C17, as you said, the Dragon deck is far and away the best for giving cards to characters that need them. The other decks were all pretty lacking. The Wizard deck had two characters while the other decks had one, but it feels like the Wizard deck should have had more given how many wizards exist in the lore. None of them were all that great save dragons, but again, it could have been a lot worse. Just look at C15.
If we're talking about power level, then C16 wasn't equal across all decks at all. GWUB was the best by far and WUBR was also quite strong, while RGWU is this one that all the stores have leftovers of. That being said, that always happens with Commander products. I expect that for C17, dragons will sell the best, followed by vampires. Neither cats nor wizards are super well-known or popular tribes; cats are probably a little more popular but the face card for wizards is a lot more appealing. We'll see what happens, though.
So to me this basically says "your extra turn spells have flashback." Yea you can only do it once per turn but if you take 7 turns in a row im sure you will be able to do something degenerate.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
The fact that she allows you to get access to that extra counter spell from your yard means her optimal build is combo: counterspells in the yard as protection snd being able to re-cast important spells that were countered earlier.
The fact that she allows you to get access to that extra counter spell from your yard means her optimal build is combo: counterspells in the yard as protection snd being able to re-cast important spells that were countered earlier.
She isn't a combo engine. She is a combo shell.
She doesn't give you access to counterspells in the the yard other than on your own turn, unfortunately.
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Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
I may be wrong, but the reason she is a combo shell and not a control shell is that combo generally wants counters to prevent others from disrupting the combo, correct? If your combo is made to go off on your own turn, she's fine, no?
Is there any way to make sure those instants and sorceries you cast go back to your hand or something instead of exile? That would be cool but idk how to break her like that.
Is there any way to make sure those instants and sorceries you cast go back to your hand or something instead of exile? That would be cool but idk how to break her like that.
Sure. Buyback would work, as would anything that doesn't go to the graveyard when it resolves (Beacon of Immortality comes to mind as an example).
The fact that she allows you to get access to that extra counter spell from your yard means her optimal build is combo: counterspells in the yard as protection snd being able to re-cast important spells that were countered earlier.
She isn't a combo engine. She is a combo shell.
She doesn't give you access to counterspells in the the yard other than on your own turn, unfortunately.
Yes.
That is why I see her as a combo armour: when you go to combo out, on your turn, you have access to that one extra counterspell in your yard. Granted you have to combo on your turn but that doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
Commander 2017 is like a photographer waiting an entire year for the red carpet at the Grammys hoping to see Christina Aguilera, Gaga and Adele only to get an endless parade of Z-list celebrities from the 70's strolling in on canes.
7 out of 16 legends in Commander 2017 are random legends, and the other 9 were established characters. That's more than half. In Commander 2016, 7 out of 20 were random legends and another 3 were literally names from flavor texts that they made cards for (Akiri, Bruse, and Thrasios), so only half of the cards were for truly established characters. In Commander 2015, there were only 4 established characters out of 10 legends, and that's if I'm being generous and counting Karlov (who technically a different Karlov than the one that appeared in the original Ravnica novels).
Don't get me wrong, I want to see less random legends and more established characters in Commander sets too. But this is far from the Commander set in that regard, and it's arguably the best since Commander 2014. At least for this set they didn't completely butcher any characters like they did for Ludevic in C16.
I think that part of the problem was that the dragon deck got leaked first. The dragon deck was the only deck to feature all established characters. The other three had more random legends than established characters. So seeing the dragon deck first gave us high hopes for the other decks, and during spoiler season most of the legends that were new to us (ones that hadn't been leaked) were random legends. It gave the illusion of this set being heavy on random legends, when in reality it's about the same as C16 and much better than C15.
Yeah, the leak set high hopes and standards for the others. But at the same time, it's a no-brainer that if Edgar Markov could make it into Vampires, and rightfully so, that Anje and Runo would be considered for example,
To be fair, Runo probably was considered but not chosen because his association with the sea god implies that he is partially blue, while Anje may not have been considered at all because they had already started working on the decks before people started to want an Anje Falkenrath card.
and more than one Wizard (two if we count Taigam a second time) for Wizards. Cats really was the only deck with an excuse to have randoms.
True, although we still could have seen Marisi. Or a compleated version of Kemba, like Ezuri's appearance in C15.
The worst offender is the Wizard deck, considering that's probably the longest list in terms of tribe for cardless characters. The Wizard deck for me is the greatest disappointment as my favorite tribe falling so horribly flat.
Agreed. "Wizard" is such a broad description that there are so many characters that could possibly be given the card type. To think that they had to make up not one, but two new wizards is baffling. I'm also kind of annoyed that all the wizards have the same typeline: human wizard. Yeah, yeah, humans are relatable, but they're also boring, so you have to get the right balance, which 100% humans is not. The two that were preexisting characters get a pass, but the other two had no reason to be humans, especially Kess because she's one of those inexplicably flying humans that shouldn't even exist because Magic has humanoid races that can fly, aven and vampires for example.
It's fine. Taigam alone is a big deal, since he ranked #1 as the most highly desired character. Had he not been spoiled, I'm sure many of this product's shortcomings would have been overlooked with his reveal.
Yeah, if you compare this set's most popular cardless character that got a card (Taigam) to last year's (Ludevic), I think Taigam would win out even for just popularity alone, and definitely for how his cards were designed compared to Ludevic's.
That said, it's another example of the Dragon deck delivering, which it did - big time. The contrast with the others not delivering is what's so alarming. If all 4 had been as quality as the Dragon deck, I wouldn't have reason to be critical at all. But the Dragon deck is indeed a sign of progress in and of itself. I must remember that these are made far in advance, so we're talking 2015 here. The character poll was October 2015, so next year may show even more improvement.
C16 and C17 are equally good for me, but C16 was good across all decks, this year I'm only feeling one, and that imbalance feels like there was a disconnect somewhere.
If you're talking about Vorthos appeal, the BRGW deck in C16 was by far the weakest. It had exclusively new characters, two of which were at least clearly from Theros but the other two weren't even given planes at all. The RGWU deck was the best, having Kynaios and Tiro (the only face card that wasn't completely new), Ludevic (even though his card was bad, people still really wanted the card), and Sidar Kondo (the only legend in C16 that comes from older lore, C17 has a lot more of those tbh). The other ones were all ok, WUBR had Silas Renn, UBRG had Kydele (and Vial Smasher), and GWUB didn't have any prominent characters but it had three minor characters from Tarkir that at least had story roles.
In C17, as you said, the Dragon deck is far and away the best for giving cards to characters that need them. The other decks were all pretty lacking. The Wizard deck had two characters while the other decks had one, but it feels like the Wizard deck should have had more given how many wizards exist in the lore. None of them were all that great save dragons, but again, it could have been a lot worse. Just look at C15.
If we're talking about power level, then C16 wasn't equal across all decks at all. GWUB was the best by far and WUBR was also quite strong, while RGWU is this one that all the stores have leftovers of. That being said, that always happens with Commander products. I expect that for C17, dragons will sell the best, followed by vampires. Neither cats nor wizards are super well-known or popular tribes; cats are probably a little more popular but the face card for wizards is a lot more appealing. We'll see what happens, though.
Agreed on all points. I will say, I do prefer Human Wizards, but overall *any* past lore wizards over generic characters were preferred. The one I hoped for most was Choryu (not that I anticipated it) but getting next to nothing was insult to injury. At the same time, I try to remind myself that it saves me money in the end, to have fewer decks/cards to buy, so there's that. Just gotta remember it's WOTC that has to appeal to me, not just the other way around. Last year was hype and these being once a year can make them a big deal as the only product for the format specifically so I got carried away with big expectations.
On the bright side, Taigam fans can rejoice with two cards - tha'll make up for lacking one before lol
So is this a "Taking Turns" Commander?
I mean Kess, Dissident Mage plus any Time Warp is double turns. So do you just load up on every extra turn instant and sorcery and then build up to Beacon of Tomorrows. It's possibly clunky, but seems like it could be a thing. Add in double board wipes for extra control.
Edit: looks like the mtgsalvation name is misspelled, so use this for now: Kess, Dissdent Mage
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
It's fine. Taigam alone is a big deal, since he ranked #1 as the most highly desired character. Had he not been spoiled, I'm sure many of this product's shortcomings would have been overlooked with his reveal. That said, it's another example of the Dragon deck delivering, which it did - big time. The contrast with the others not delivering is what's so alarming. If all 4 had been as quality as the Dragon deck, I wouldn't have reason to be critical at all. But the Dragon deck is indeed a sign of progress in and of itself. I must remember that these are made far in advance, so we're talking 2015 here. The character poll was October 2015, so next year may show even more improvement.
C16 and C17 are equally good for me, but C16 was good across all decks, this year I'm only feeling one, and that imbalance feels like there was a disconnect somewhere.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
FTFY. There were also Esper and Jund Swamps.
I'm thinking she will be built like a grindy, lite-spellslingy, heavier control type of thing. She is basically a Karador, Ghost Chieftain for Instants and Sorceries, so maybe it will feel like that? Pretty open-ended/goodstuff-y design here.
COMMANDER DECKS
Gishath, Sun's Avatar
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Surrak Presents: Snow-where to Run (A Temur Production)
Zurgo - Mardu Warrior Tribal
Gisa and Geralf
Jhoira's Artifacts
Double Brainstorm for UU?
Double Lightning Bolt for RR?
Double Fatal Push for BB?
Having cheap spells means you can keep open mana for disruptions, counters. Every spell in your yard is like your hand, on top of having a full grip of cards. She might be the best new commander out of this set.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I was hoping against hope with a huge long shot that a crossover would occur with a certain legendary vampire wizard from homelands, since his castle is grixis. I knew it wouldn't happen but man it would have been incredible.
If you're saying "keep open mana for disruption, counters" referring to using disruption and counters using her ability, you can't counter or use anything in your yard on opponent's turns. That is why she might not be so great.
Considering we don't know anything about vampires on Licia's plane, or anything significant about Licia herself, I'm not bothered by that.
Also Grixis lady here is solid. Constant flashback is nice.
To be fair, Runo probably was considered but not chosen because his association with the sea god implies that he is partially blue, while Anje may not have been considered at all because they had already started working on the decks before people started to want an Anje Falkenrath card.
True, although we still could have seen Marisi. Or a compleated version of Kemba, like Ezuri's appearance in C15.
Agreed. "Wizard" is such a broad description that there are so many characters that could possibly be given the card type. To think that they had to make up not one, but two new wizards is baffling. I'm also kind of annoyed that all the wizards have the same typeline: human wizard. Yeah, yeah, humans are relatable, but they're also boring, so you have to get the right balance, which 100% humans is not. The two that were preexisting characters get a pass, but the other two had no reason to be humans, especially Kess because she's one of those inexplicably flying humans that shouldn't even exist because Magic has humanoid races that can fly, aven and vampires for example.
Yeah, if you compare this set's most popular cardless character that got a card (Taigam) to last year's (Ludevic), I think Taigam would win out even for just popularity alone, and definitely for how his cards were designed compared to Ludevic's.
If you're talking about Vorthos appeal, the BRGW deck in C16 was by far the weakest. It had exclusively new characters, two of which were at least clearly from Theros but the other two weren't even given planes at all. The RGWU deck was the best, having Kynaios and Tiro (the only face card that wasn't completely new), Ludevic (even though his card was bad, people still really wanted the card), and Sidar Kondo (the only legend in C16 that comes from older lore, C17 has a lot more of those tbh). The other ones were all ok, WUBR had Silas Renn, UBRG had Kydele (and Vial Smasher), and GWUB didn't have any prominent characters but it had three minor characters from Tarkir that at least had story roles.
In C17, as you said, the Dragon deck is far and away the best for giving cards to characters that need them. The other decks were all pretty lacking. The Wizard deck had two characters while the other decks had one, but it feels like the Wizard deck should have had more given how many wizards exist in the lore. None of them were all that great save dragons, but again, it could have been a lot worse. Just look at C15.
If we're talking about power level, then C16 wasn't equal across all decks at all. GWUB was the best by far and WUBR was also quite strong, while RGWU is this one that all the stores have leftovers of. That being said, that always happens with Commander products. I expect that for C17, dragons will sell the best, followed by vampires. Neither cats nor wizards are super well-known or popular tribes; cats are probably a little more popular but the face card for wizards is a lot more appealing. We'll see what happens, though.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
She isn't a combo engine. She is a combo shell.
She doesn't give you access to counterspells in the the yard other than on your own turn, unfortunately.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Yes.
That is why I see her as a combo armour: when you go to combo out, on your turn, you have access to that one extra counterspell in your yard. Granted you have to combo on your turn but that doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
On the bright side, Taigam fans can rejoice with two cards - tha'll make up for lacking one before lol
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I mean Kess, Dissident Mage plus any Time Warp is double turns. So do you just load up on every extra turn instant and sorcery and then build up to Beacon of Tomorrows. It's possibly clunky, but seems like it could be a thing. Add in double board wipes for extra control.
Edit: looks like the mtgsalvation name is misspelled, so use this for now: Kess, Dissdent Mage