In the end I hope Humans is not one of the tribes unless they make it really, really unique. But that's honestly grasping at straws. Humans as a tribe are boring; it's what they do as mages and warriors and stuff that makes them cool.
I disagree, but a lot of what Humans want to do, Cats also do. Cats have the GW deck, so I doubt a Human deck would just be GW. They could get WUBRG, but mechanically they'll still feel similar to Cats, especially since most of their tribal support is GW. I wouldn't mind seeing Humans get a tribal deck eventually though.
I feel that, since we're likely to get Avatars as our face cards, the tribes this time will all be animaloid, even if some are fictitious animals like Dragons.
BGU Naga/Snake tribal has some material to work with now, methinks. I could see a sort of "Rainbow Serpent" Snake Avatar, though that should probably be a WUBRG Snake to keep to the rainbow theme. But a BGU Snake Avatar could still work. Although, how much black do Nagas/Snakes really want to run? You have the odd card like Sidisi, sure, but the majority of a Snake deck will be GU. Well, it's probably worth adding black for the Sultai fans.
Birds are another tribe I could see getting a deck, either WU or WUB. Again though, how much black does that tribe really want? You have black Birds, but how many of them want to be played in a Bird tribal deck?
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
If they put in one of the major tribes, I'd be annoyed. There's no need for more support in Elves or Merfolk or Goblins - they have all the tribal synergy they need to be successful and threatening already.
I feel like I should sig this to prove that absolutely no one will ever be pleased, no matter what.
If they want to do that, well, it's their game and they can do whatever they want with it.
I just think that if they did UB Zombies over UB Rogues or UB Merfolk (yeah, it's Merfolk, but not their dominant color pairing) or Fairies or whatever, it would be, well, pretty boring and predictable, and likely something you've already built in your spare time, played a couple of games with, and been like "Eh, this is boring."
I just think that if they did UB Zombies over UB Rogues or UB Merfolk (yeah, it's Merfolk, but not their dominant color pairing) or Fairies or whatever, it would be, well, pretty boring and predictable, and likely something you've already built in your spare time, played a couple of games with, and been like "Eh, this is boring."
Or maybe, when I built UB zombies, I found it very fun, and kinda want a better commander that doesn't die to my own Call to the Grave, Noxious Ghoul, or Zombie Apocalypse, because maybe, just maybe, there are people out there who don't have the exact same definition of fun as you.
I just think that if they did UB Zombies over UB Rogues or UB Merfolk (yeah, it's Merfolk, but not their dominant color pairing) or Fairies or whatever, it would be, well, pretty boring and predictable, and likely something you've already built in your spare time, played a couple of games with, and been like "Eh, this is boring."
Or maybe, when I built UB zombies, I found it very fun, and kinda want a better commander that doesn't die to my own Call to the Grave, Noxious Ghoul, or Zombie Apocalypse, because maybe, just maybe, there are people out there who don't have the exact same definition of fun as you.
Oh, so the card not only has to be in-tribe, but also has to do specifically something with Zombies? Seriously, you want a Zombie deck, Grim-Grin, Corpse Born is exactly that. Does Zombie things, in primary zombie colors. Geeze, what else do you want? I mean, to solve your dilemma there, why not turn themintozombies.
Seriously, if this is the primary reason folks that share your thoughts are getting so bent, well, just avoid this product all together. I mean, there is always the creative factor, and decks just shouldn't build themselves and work like a well oiled machine all the time. Finding ways to overcome inherent weaknesses is part of the game.
For example, this very cat deck. Seems to be combat-oriented, which is actually pretty cool for the GW combo, as there aren't many, and none with true tribal support. Supports a lot of red zone shenanigans, sure, but it's also in enchantress colors, and makes that "all-in" strategy easier to pull off with so many defensive enchants. Combine that with the card advantage enchants, and you have yourself a pretty solid strategy. It has inherent weaknesses that the other 99 can help to shore up.
So your solution, then, is to print cards that are functionally similar to cards that already exist, but with the zombie creature type? Yes, that is ridiculous.
I said in a tribal deck i prefer the commander fits the theme instead of the type. Is it ridiculous to want both ?
Well, yeah, honestly. That is straight up lazy design. At the very least take the tribe in a new direction, but printing a zombie that is basically Gisa and Geralf just seems ridiculous. It's like asking for your Lamborghini to go fast, have excellent MPG, and not cost $100,000. How about the next best thing, and just shore up the weaknesses. I could get behind a tribe that doesn't get a ton of love, like these here cats, but zombies? Elves? Goblins? Dude, there are plenty of options, get creative...
Sticking on the zombie topic for a minute, Grim-Grin does synergize with other zombies. He's a free sac outlet. He allows Gravecrawler shenanigans. He triggers undying. Like, does a tribal commander really need to spell it out for you? Personally, I prefer open-ended tribal commanders, ones that are awesome leaders of the pack, but can also do stand-alone things if I ever want to try the deck in a different direction.
I guess to each their own, but the salt here is outrageous. People will literally complain about the sky being blue because it reminds them of water and they can't swim.
If you want a UB Zombie legend, how about a new lich that provides card draw of some sort? Or maybe does something neat like add a Rise from the Grave effect to every instant or sorcery spell you cast? That would combo nicely with Zombie-related sorceries like Rise from the Tides and Army of the Damned.
But of course this is the Cat deck topic. Discussion about other tribe commanders really ought to go in the general Commander 2017 topic.
So, the other two Cat legends. Cats could use some card draw, and a Hunter's Insight/Hunter's Prowess type of effect feels right. I could picture a Zaliki Cat Shaman legend that provides both lifegain and card draw, befitting his role as a Nacatl shaman. Lifelink + Insight plays into the Naya power 5 theme while also paying well with Cats.
Meanwhile, a GW Leonin from Theros, perhaps a Soldier or Warrior, could involve the Heroic ability, and produce Cat Soldier tokens much like Brimaz, King of Oreskos and Vanguard of Brimaz. Since GW focused on +1/+1 counters in Theros, this GW Leonin legend could also put +1/+1 counters on creatures you control, or grant them an ability that does so. This would play well with Auras and Strive spells like Solidarity of Heroes and Ajani's Presence.
Or, to play up a champion flavor, maybe the Theros Leonin legend gets bigger from your other creatures? Like whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, the legend gets a +1/+1 counter, and triggering heroic creates a Cat Soldier token.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Oh, so the card not only has to be in-tribe, but also has to do specifically something with Zombies?
So should Arahbo not have been made? After all, we already have plenty of legendary cats and plenty of GW legends. And, according to you, wanting a general that's both is "like asking for your Lamborghini to go fast, have excellent MPG, and not cost $100,000". If all those cat fans really wanted a cat commander deck, they would've found a way to make it work already without a legendary GW cat, right? After all, "Finding ways to overcome inherent weaknesses is part of the game." In fact, wanting WotC to print anything new is unreasonable; there are more than enough MtG cards existence already!
Seriously, you want a Zombie deck, Grim-Grin, Corpse Born is exactly that. Does Zombie things, in primary zombie colors.
I've tried him before. He's terrible. Grimgrin is slow, has no immediate board impact, and he needs to attack when his tribe is less aggressive than most others. He's a big, dumb beater with no evasion, and no resiliency. Most of the time, he just eats removal before getting a chance to do anything, except your opponents waited to kill him until after you've sacrificed a zombie, so now you've been 2-for-1'd.
Geeze, what else do you want?
Not-terrible cards. Like most players.
Seriously, if this is the primary reason folks that share your thoughts are getting so bent, well, just avoid this product all together.
I'm not "getting so bent", I was just pointing out that one of the C17 decks being zombies isn't unreasonable, because zombies can be fun, and there are still new things WotC could do for zombies.
I mean, there is always the creative factor, and decks just shouldn't build themselves and work like a well oiled machine all the time.
That isn't what I asked for. And my 99 work fine anyway, it's just my options for the general I have problems with.
There are legendary creatures that synergise with the type they are Horde of notionsEzuri,renegade leaderI said in a tribal deck i prefer the commander fits the theme instead of the type. Is it ridiculous to want both ?
Well, yeah, honestly. That is straight up lazy design.
Elves make lots of mana, goblins are aggressive, slivers buff each other, and zombies return from the grave. Printing legends that play into that stuff isn't lazy design, it's consistent design.
printing a zombie that is basically Gisa and Geralf just seems ridiculous.
Geez, where do you get this nonsense? YuriTheGodslayer was just comparing the what zombies have for commanders to what other tribes have. He/she never said anything about a carbon copy of Gisa and Geralf. And the three qualities I wanted were UB color identity, zombie creature type, and better than Grimgrin; again, nothing about zombie Cecani siblings. Honestly, wanting your commander to be the appropriate color(s), creature type, and power level is asking very little.
How about the next best thing, and just shore up the weaknesses.
Okay, how about the weakness that my commander is the weakest link?
He's a free sac outlet. He allows Gravecrawler shenanigans. He triggers undying.
Well, lah-dee-friggin'-dah. You know how many free sac outlets black has? That's barely worth a drop of spit in the ocean. And anyway, having a sac outlet isn't even the most important thing for zombies; since this is EDH, creatures die easy and often. Having death triggers, disposable fodder, and ways of getting creatures back from your graveyard are all way more important.
Like, does a tribal commander really need to spell it out for you?
No, and nobody asked that they do.
Personally, I prefer open-ended tribal commanders, ones that are awesome leaders of the pack, but can also do stand-alone things if I ever want to try the deck in a different direction.
It sure sounds like you're being a lot more demanding and picky than me.
I hate to sound like a broken record but Arahbo is 1:5 possible new legends in the cat deck. Don't like Arahbo? Cool your jets and wait a bit to see what the others offer. I shouldn't think I have to say this over and over but apparently I have to. Because folks for some reason just judge one legend and moan about it being too "linear" and "boring" without waiting to see what the other legends have to offer.
I get, you want the Commander to do everything, so you can just slap any 'ole creature in their as long as its tribe-specific. It is lazy design to "copy" a pre-existing card mechanically and make a change to the creature type line. Exciting and well designed tribal generals support what tribes already do with their underlings, I mean, what's the point in having a general that is just more of the same? Instead of a Zombie general that brings creatures back, like the dozens of zombies already in existence, how about they fill and protect their grave plots? A Yixid jailer type effect for zombie creatures, and a discard/mill activated ability. Hasn't been done, and is perfect synergy for the tribe. That would be creative design. The dragon deck isn't a homerun, but dragons cost a lot of mana, so a permanent 1-Mana discount synergizes with what that tribe is all about. I expect to see more of the same in the other pre-cons.
It sure sounds like you're being a lot more demanding and picky than me.
Considering I haven't demanded anything out of, or even critiqued, the new legends, this seems like a weak attempt at flipping the script. My initial comment was made to you, and your requests. I'm not the one with the current card pool selections of creatures that are printed into oblivion. I'll bite, though. You know what I'd like, anything but. Simple.
I hate to sound like a broken record but Arahbo is 1:5 possible new legends in the cat deck. Don't like Arahbo? Cool your jets and wait a bit to see what the others offer. I shouldn't think I have to say this over and over but apparently I have to. Because folks for some reason just judge one legend and moan about it being too "linear" and "boring" without waiting to see what the other legends have to offer.
I'm assuming you are saying in a way "you guys are jumping the gun that this guy stinks."
Yes abo****ely agree almost everybody makes this mistake about most card they say It stinks esc thing by how it looks but way better than it looks.
There's chance O-kagachi can be that catergory it has a dread/no mercy esc ability.
I hate to sound like a broken record but Arahbo is 1:5 possible new legends in the cat deck. Don't like Arahbo? Cool your jets and wait a bit to see what the others offer. I shouldn't think I have to say this over and over but apparently I have to. Because folks for some reason just judge one legend and moan about it being too "linear" and "boring" without waiting to see what the other legends have to offer.
I'm assuming you are saying in a way "you guys are jumping the gun that this guy stinks."
Yes abo****ely agree almost everybody makes this mistake about most card they say It stinks esc thing by how it looks but way better than it looks.
There's chance O-kagachi can be that catergory it has a dread/no mercy esc ability.
Kind of. The face card is straight forward. Straight forward is not a bad thing. But people need to wait and see what other legends there are. As Ramos, Taigam, O-Kagachi and Wasitora are anything to go by then their might be a supporting legend they find as perfect match for them.
I get, you want the Commander to do everything, so you can just slap any 'ole creature in their as long as its tribe-specific.
Is logic anathema to you, or do you just not read the posts you reply to? How did you get "I want a commander that does everything" from "UB color identity, zombie creature type, and better than Grimgrin"?
Exciting and well designed tribal generals support what tribes already do with their underlings, I mean, what's the point in having a general that is just more of the same? Instead of a Zombie general that brings creatures back, like the dozens of zombies already in existence, how about they fill and protect their grave plots? A Yixid jailer type effect for zombie creatures, and a discard/mill activated ability. Hasn't been done, and is perfect synergy for the tribe. That would be creative design.
Once again, I'm going to have to ask, do you not read the post you respond to? I'm not advocating against innovation. Just because I pointed out that having tribes revisit themes doesn't mean I want every zombie ever to be a reanimation engine or whatever. There's a pretty wide gulf between "functional reprint" and "brand-new, never-before-seen effect". And in that wide gulf, there are tons of good card designs. We shouldn't throw them out just because there are some similarities to pre-existing cards. Ramos is just a mana battery crossed with a Witch-maw Nephilim/Quirion Dryad sort of trigger, but he's still a cool card. We've had both dragon attack triggers and cost reducers before, but that doesn't mean the Ur-Dragon is without merit. Not every new legend needs to be completely off the beaten path.
Like I've said before, part of designing a good tribal theme is giving the tribe a fun theme to play around. Lord bonuses and global keyword abilities are all well and good, but if your tribal theme stops there, you're quickly running into repetition and monotony. Let's review some of the more notable tribal themes of the past, shall we?
Lorwyn (G/W)W Kithkin - Aggro beatdown with lots of tokens WU Merfolk - Focused on tapping and control BR Goblins - Sacrifice shenanigans (R/G)(R/W)(U/R)(B/R) Elementals - Evoke and ability activation BG Elves - +1/+1 counters, creature death UB Faeries - Tempo effects with some scaling RW Giants - Big stompy aggro BGW Treefolk - High toughness
Zendikar WUBRG Allies - ETB tempo aggro
Innistrad WU Spirits - Flying, tokens, ETB tapdown effects UB Zombies - Mill, graveyard interaction BR Vampires - Sacrifice and "Slith" bonuses RG Werewolves - Transform GW Humans - Tokens, +1/+1 counters, Equipment with tribal bonuses (Humans were available in all colors and every color had at least a few Humans-matter cards over the course of the block, but the bulk of the tribal support was concentrated in GW)
Theros BR Minotaurs - Cheap aggro with a few drawbacks
Khans of Tarkir WB Warriors - Lifegain, tokens
Battle for Zendikar WUBRG Allies - ETB tempo aggro in BFZ, Cohort activated abilities in OTG
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I get, you want the Commander to do everything, so you can just slap any 'ole creature in their as long as its tribe-specific.
Is logic anathema to you, or do you just not read the posts you reply to? How did you get "I want a commander that does everything" from "UB color identity, zombie creature type, and better than Grimgrin"?
Well, lah-dee-friggin'-dah. You know how many free sac outlets black has? That's barely worth a drop of spit in the ocean. And anyway, having a sac outlet isn't even the most important thing for zombies; since this is EDH, creatures die easy and often. Having death triggers, disposable fodder, and ways of getting creatures back from your graveyard are all way more important.
The salt is real with this one. Again, those types of cards exist, and already in that tribe! I guess I did misinterpret, you're looking for competetive replacements, which is even worse.
It is lazy design to "copy" a pre-existing card mechanically and make a change to the creature type line.
I already told you, nobody suggested WotC copy/paste creatures with new types for the generals. So stop using that as your strawman.
Its a strawman if it's an argument, that's not what this is. You complained about you're Zombie Commander dying to Call to the grave, and, as shown above, would rather a Commander do exactly the same thing, but not die to CTtG. I've read the posts just fine, it's all there.
Exciting and well designed tribal generals support what tribes already do with their underlings, I mean, what's the point in having a general that is just more of the same? Instead of a Zombie general that brings creatures back, like the dozens of zombies already in existence, how about they fill and protect their grave plots? A Yixid jailer type effect for zombie creatures, and a discard/mill activated ability. Hasn't been done, and is perfect synergy for the tribe. That would be creative design.
Once again, I'm going to have to ask, do you not read the post you respond to? I'm not advocating against innovation. Just because I pointed out that having tribes revisit themes doesn't mean I want every zombie ever to be a reanimation engine or whatever. There's a pretty wide gulf between "functional reprint" and "brand-new, never-before-seen effect". And in that wide gulf, there are tons of good card designs. We shouldn't throw them out just because there are some similarities to pre-existing cards. Ramos is just a mana battery crossed with a Witch-maw Nephilim/Quirion Dryad sort of trigger, but he's still a cool card. We've had both dragon attack triggers and cost reducers before, but that doesn't mean the Ur-Dragon is without merit. Not every new legend needs to be completely off the beaten path.
I never said you were against it, do you read the posts? But, you, and others(or do you speak for them as well?)have, throughout this thread brought up tribes that are supported into oblivion, but are still "unhappy" with the current selection. Like, the generals exist. They're there, they already do what you are asking for something else to do. If they print any of the aforementioned tribes without taking them in a new direction, it's just lazy and a waste of an opportunity for creativity.
Edit: And this has gone completely off the rails...
Can we get a mod to shut down this argument about who's advocating for a zombie tribal deck and who's against it for whatever stupid reasons they're arguing?
Every day I come to this thread and try to read some Cat tribal hype but it's literally two guys going back and forth about Zombie commanders and it's been like this for a week now, and it's really annoying.
Okay, this is about the CAT tribal deck. If you want to speculate about other decks, we have Speculation for that. If you want to discuss the possibilities for CATS, that's here. If you want to discuss the new commander, that too is here. Derailing it from this point on will yield direct warnings, no informal ones.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Can we get a mod to shut down this argument about who's advocating for a zombie tribal deck and who's against it for whatever stupid reasons they're arguing?
Every day I come to this thread and try to read some Cat tribal hype but it's literally two guys going back and forth about Zombie commanders and it's been like this for a week now, and it's really annoying.
It's been two days, not a week. Calm down.
But sure, this argument doesn't seem like it's going to be resolved anytime soon, so I'll switch to PMing Buffsam89.
Wild Nacatl, though, seems unlikely,
as these are aimed at newer players,
and that card might make new players think they can just put a Mountain in the deck to make WN better.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
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I disagree, but a lot of what Humans want to do, Cats also do. Cats have the GW deck, so I doubt a Human deck would just be GW. They could get WUBRG, but mechanically they'll still feel similar to Cats, especially since most of their tribal support is GW. I wouldn't mind seeing Humans get a tribal deck eventually though.
I feel that, since we're likely to get Avatars as our face cards, the tribes this time will all be animaloid, even if some are fictitious animals like Dragons.
BGU Naga/Snake tribal has some material to work with now, methinks. I could see a sort of "Rainbow Serpent" Snake Avatar, though that should probably be a WUBRG Snake to keep to the rainbow theme. But a BGU Snake Avatar could still work. Although, how much black do Nagas/Snakes really want to run? You have the odd card like Sidisi, sure, but the majority of a Snake deck will be GU. Well, it's probably worth adding black for the Sultai fans.
Birds are another tribe I could see getting a deck, either WU or WUB. Again though, how much black does that tribe really want? You have black Birds, but how many of them want to be played in a Bird tribal deck?
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
If they want to do that, well, it's their game and they can do whatever they want with it.
I just think that if they did UB Zombies over UB Rogues or UB Merfolk (yeah, it's Merfolk, but not their dominant color pairing) or Fairies or whatever, it would be, well, pretty boring and predictable, and likely something you've already built in your spare time, played a couple of games with, and been like "Eh, this is boring."
Oh, so the card not only has to be in-tribe, but also has to do specifically something with Zombies? Seriously, you want a Zombie deck, Grim-Grin, Corpse Born is exactly that. Does Zombie things, in primary zombie colors. Geeze, what else do you want? I mean, to solve your dilemma there, why not turn them into zombies.
Seriously, if this is the primary reason folks that share your thoughts are getting so bent, well, just avoid this product all together. I mean, there is always the creative factor, and decks just shouldn't build themselves and work like a well oiled machine all the time. Finding ways to overcome inherent weaknesses is part of the game.
For example, this very cat deck. Seems to be combat-oriented, which is actually pretty cool for the GW combo, as there aren't many, and none with true tribal support. Supports a lot of red zone shenanigans, sure, but it's also in enchantress colors, and makes that "all-in" strategy easier to pull off with so many defensive enchants. Combine that with the card advantage enchants, and you have yourself a pretty solid strategy. It has inherent weaknesses that the other 99 can help to shore up.
So your solution, then, is to print cards that are functionally similar to cards that already exist, but with the zombie creature type? Yes, that is ridiculous.
Well, yeah, honestly. That is straight up lazy design. At the very least take the tribe in a new direction, but printing a zombie that is basically Gisa and Geralf just seems ridiculous. It's like asking for your Lamborghini to go fast, have excellent MPG, and not cost $100,000. How about the next best thing, and just shore up the weaknesses. I could get behind a tribe that doesn't get a ton of love, like these here cats, but zombies? Elves? Goblins? Dude, there are plenty of options, get creative...
Sticking on the zombie topic for a minute, Grim-Grin does synergize with other zombies. He's a free sac outlet. He allows Gravecrawler shenanigans. He triggers undying. Like, does a tribal commander really need to spell it out for you? Personally, I prefer open-ended tribal commanders, ones that are awesome leaders of the pack, but can also do stand-alone things if I ever want to try the deck in a different direction.
I guess to each their own, but the salt here is outrageous. People will literally complain about the sky being blue because it reminds them of water and they can't swim.
But of course this is the Cat deck topic. Discussion about other tribe commanders really ought to go in the general Commander 2017 topic.
So, the other two Cat legends. Cats could use some card draw, and a Hunter's Insight/Hunter's Prowess type of effect feels right. I could picture a Zaliki Cat Shaman legend that provides both lifegain and card draw, befitting his role as a Nacatl shaman. Lifelink + Insight plays into the Naya power 5 theme while also paying well with Cats.
Meanwhile, a GW Leonin from Theros, perhaps a Soldier or Warrior, could involve the Heroic ability, and produce Cat Soldier tokens much like Brimaz, King of Oreskos and Vanguard of Brimaz. Since GW focused on +1/+1 counters in Theros, this GW Leonin legend could also put +1/+1 counters on creatures you control, or grant them an ability that does so. This would play well with Auras and Strive spells like Solidarity of Heroes and Ajani's Presence.
Or, to play up a champion flavor, maybe the Theros Leonin legend gets bigger from your other creatures? Like whenever another creature enters the battlefield under your control, the legend gets a +1/+1 counter, and triggering heroic creates a Cat Soldier token.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I've tried him before. He's terrible. Grimgrin is slow, has no immediate board impact, and he needs to attack when his tribe is less aggressive than most others. He's a big, dumb beater with no evasion, and no resiliency. Most of the time, he just eats removal before getting a chance to do anything, except your opponents waited to kill him until after you've sacrificed a zombie, so now you've been 2-for-1'd.
Not-terrible cards. Like most players.
I'm not "getting so bent", I was just pointing out that one of the C17 decks being zombies isn't unreasonable, because zombies can be fun, and there are still new things WotC could do for zombies.
That isn't what I asked for. And my 99 work fine anyway, it's just my options for the general I have problems with.
Elves make lots of mana, goblins are aggressive, slivers buff each other, and zombies return from the grave. Printing legends that play into that stuff isn't lazy design, it's consistent design.
Geez, where do you get this nonsense? YuriTheGodslayer was just comparing the what zombies have for commanders to what other tribes have. He/she never said anything about a carbon copy of Gisa and Geralf. And the three qualities I wanted were UB color identity, zombie creature type, and better than Grimgrin; again, nothing about zombie Cecani siblings. Honestly, wanting your commander to be the appropriate color(s), creature type, and power level is asking very little.
Okay, how about the weakness that my commander is the weakest link?
Well, lah-dee-friggin'-dah. You know how many free sac outlets black has? That's barely worth a drop of spit in the ocean. And anyway, having a sac outlet isn't even the most important thing for zombies; since this is EDH, creatures die easy and often. Having death triggers, disposable fodder, and ways of getting creatures back from your graveyard are all way more important.
No, and nobody asked that they do.
It sure sounds like you're being a lot more demanding and picky than me.
I get, you want the Commander to do everything, so you can just slap any 'ole creature in their as long as its tribe-specific. It is lazy design to "copy" a pre-existing card mechanically and make a change to the creature type line. Exciting and well designed tribal generals support what tribes already do with their underlings, I mean, what's the point in having a general that is just more of the same? Instead of a Zombie general that brings creatures back, like the dozens of zombies already in existence, how about they fill and protect their grave plots? A Yixid jailer type effect for zombie creatures, and a discard/mill activated ability. Hasn't been done, and is perfect synergy for the tribe. That would be creative design. The dragon deck isn't a homerun, but dragons cost a lot of mana, so a permanent 1-Mana discount synergizes with what that tribe is all about. I expect to see more of the same in the other pre-cons.
Considering I haven't demanded anything out of, or even critiqued, the new legends, this seems like a weak attempt at flipping the script. My initial comment was made to you, and your requests. I'm not the one with the current card pool selections of creatures that are printed into oblivion. I'll bite, though. You know what I'd like, anything but. Simple.
I'm assuming you are saying in a way "you guys are jumping the gun that this guy stinks."
Yes abo****ely agree almost everybody makes this mistake about most card they say It stinks esc thing by how it looks but way better than it looks.
There's chance O-kagachi can be that catergory it has a dread/no mercy esc ability.
I already told you, nobody suggested WotC copy/paste creatures with new types for the generals. So stop using that as your strawman.
Once again, I'm going to have to ask, do you not read the post you respond to? I'm not advocating against innovation. Just because I pointed out that having tribes revisit themes doesn't mean I want every zombie ever to be a reanimation engine or whatever. There's a pretty wide gulf between "functional reprint" and "brand-new, never-before-seen effect". And in that wide gulf, there are tons of good card designs. We shouldn't throw them out just because there are some similarities to pre-existing cards. Ramos is just a mana battery crossed with a Witch-maw Nephilim/Quirion Dryad sort of trigger, but he's still a cool card. We've had both dragon attack triggers and cost reducers before, but that doesn't mean the Ur-Dragon is without merit. Not every new legend needs to be completely off the beaten path.
(G/W)W Kithkin - Aggro beatdown with lots of tokens
WU Merfolk - Focused on tapping and control
BR Goblins - Sacrifice shenanigans
(R/G)(R/W)(U/R)(B/R) Elementals - Evoke and ability activation
BG Elves - +1/+1 counters, creature death
UB Faeries - Tempo effects with some scaling
RW Giants - Big stompy aggro
BGW Treefolk - High toughness
Zendikar
WUBRG Allies - ETB tempo aggro
Innistrad
WU Spirits - Flying, tokens, ETB tapdown effects
UB Zombies - Mill, graveyard interaction
BR Vampires - Sacrifice and "Slith" bonuses
RG Werewolves - Transform
GW Humans - Tokens, +1/+1 counters, Equipment with tribal bonuses (Humans were available in all colors and every color had at least a few Humans-matter cards over the course of the block, but the bulk of the tribal support was concentrated in GW)
Theros
BR Minotaurs - Cheap aggro with a few drawbacks
Khans of Tarkir
WB Warriors - Lifegain, tokens
Battle for Zendikar
WUBRG Allies - ETB tempo aggro in BFZ, Cohort activated abilities in OTG
Shadows Over Innistrad
WU Spirits - ETB, Tapping effects
UB Zombies - Discard reanimation
BR Vampires - Discard, Madness
RG Werewolves - Transform
GW Humans - Tokens, +1/+1 counters, Equipment
Amonkhet
WB Zombies - Death and ETB triggers
Building distinct tribes clearly requires more than a few lords and basic keywords. Tribes need to have some kind of mechanical focus,
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Well, lah-dee-friggin'-dah. You know how many free sac outlets black has? That's barely worth a drop of spit in the ocean. And anyway, having a sac outlet isn't even the most important thing for zombies; since this is EDH, creatures die easy and often. Having death triggers, disposable fodder, and ways of getting creatures back from your graveyard are all way more important.
The salt is real with this one. Again, those types of cards exist, and already in that tribe! I guess I did misinterpret, you're looking for competetive replacements, which is even worse.
Its a strawman if it's an argument, that's not what this is. You complained about you're Zombie Commander dying to Call to the grave, and, as shown above, would rather a Commander do exactly the same thing, but not die to CTtG. I've read the posts just fine, it's all there.
I never said you were against it, do you read the posts? But, you, and others(or do you speak for them as well?)have, throughout this thread brought up tribes that are supported into oblivion, but are still "unhappy" with the current selection. Like, the generals exist. They're there, they already do what you are asking for something else to do. If they print any of the aforementioned tribes without taking them in a new direction, it's just lazy and a waste of an opportunity for creativity.
Edit: And this has gone completely off the rails...
Not sure, but they are an "Interesting" bunch though.
WOTC has gone on to say that it they are looking at both interesting and popular tribes, not just popular ones.
Every day I come to this thread and try to read some Cat tribal hype but it's literally two guys going back and forth about Zombie commanders and it's been like this for a week now, and it's really annoying.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
But sure, this argument doesn't seem like it's going to be resolved anytime soon, so I'll switch to PMing Buffsam89.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Give Zaliki a CardI must have all the cats!
Loam Lion— sure, why not (throw in Savannah Lions while we're at it)?
Wild Nacatl, though, seems unlikely,
as these are aimed at newer players,
and that card might make new players think they can just put a Mountain in the deck to make WN better.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW