Of course you dont need mana elves to make this card viable. Its damn powerful already.
But there is this lil synergy:
If you cast turn 1 Elvish Mystique & turn 2 this card by spending 1 mana from a land & 1 Mana from the mana elf, your turn 3 will only have 1 land, that stays tapped. If you now play your 3rd land, youd have 2 untapped lands & a mana elf = 3 Mana turn 3.
Thats a damn nice trick to evade the Snakes disadvantage & also consisting of already playable cards d:)
You make your land unusable in one turn so that it isn't unusable on another turn.
Turn 2 it is very strong. It is a risky gamble, for sure but the pay off is potentially great. Late game he becomes even better because you will typically have fewer cards to cast per turn and lots of mana to spare.
I don't know about std but the dont untap clause is a little harsh for a vanilla 5/4. And AFAIK aggro decks value their mana curves.
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Got it, this card is worthless because every deck you ever play against with it will always cast fatal push on it, even the decks without black mana in them...now i understand.
Removal is even more punishing against this. Normally it wouldn't matter if they just killed your turn 2 play, not a huge deal, but when your turn 2 play also Time Walks your own next turn it's something to think about even further. Not to mention when later on in the game you could induce a larger penalty on yourself. When you can't untap 6+ lands, potentially, it is going to hurt far more than just being unable to untap 2 lands.
People are rushing to post without actually looking at the math of what they're saying, and the fact that it...doesn't work.
Playing this later does not make it good. That's even more lands you can't untap; that's far worse. This doesn't magically choose only the lands you tapped to pay for it.
Playing this with mana dorks while keeping lands untapped does not make it good. That's making those lands unusable on that turn (since you're refusing to tap them) instead of on the next turn. Same thing, different time.
Playing this on turn 2 does not make it good. That's an aggro strat, so you're almost entirely giving up turn 3 in an aggro deck. Which is, uh, suicide.
There are ways to make the card more useful -- mostly edge cases in which you play multiple Last Stands in the same turn so that the drawback is mitigated -- but the above methods are not among them.
Got it, this card is worthless because every deck you ever play against with it will always cast fatal push on it, even the decks without black mana in them...now i understand.
Removal is even more punishing against this. Normally it wouldn't matter if they just killed your turn 2 play, not a huge deal, but when your turn 2 play also Time Walks your own next turn it's something to think about even further. Not to mention when later on in the game you could induce a larger penalty on yourself. When you can't untap 6+ lands, potentially, it is going to hurt far more than just being unable to untap 2 lands.
Yeah, but at best a Mini-Timewalk.
& that is only 2 bad, if opponent is already ahead or gets ahead in the next turn & on top of that, has Push in hand.
Many things that have to go well imo.
The thing is you get for 2 Mana something so impactful that dominates everything else early & opposed to other 2 Mana creatures, this Snake is more relevant later too.
Just for this lil cost.
I recommend playin it in Aggro, where you dont fall behind easily & in older formats undoubtlywith Mana-elves
I love such innovative cards with big potential d:)
I see this as bulk, it's in the same mold as Lupine Prototype big cheap creature that isn't worth building around. Being tapped out for 2 turns is a big problem for a creature deck. We don't have 1cc Mana dorks anymore.
People are rushing to post without actually looking at the math of what they're saying, and the fact that it...doesn't work.
Playing this later does not make it good. That's even more lands you can't untap; that's far worse. This doesn't magically choose only the lands you tapped to pay for it.
Playing this with mana dorks while keeping lands untapped does not make it good. That's making those lands unusable on that turn (since you're refusing to tap them) instead of on the next turn. Same thing, different time.
Playing this on turn 2 does not make it good. That's an aggro strat, so you're almost entirely giving up turn 3 in an aggro deck. Which is, uh, suicide.
There are ways to make the card more useful -- mostly edge cases in which you play multiple Last Stands in the same turn so that the drawback is mitigated -- but the above methods are not among them.
Don't forget the fact that it costs GG, that's so restrictive to a mana base and sometimes makes ur land drop sequences bad if ur trying to force this out turn 2 as well. Not to mention lack of evasion and trades with heart of Kiran as well if need be.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
Anyone thinking this is either cheaper or faster with mana elves both hasn't thought this through and hasn't read the thread.
With or without elves, it costs 2 + <# of lands in play>
I mean with an elf you do get one extra mana on each of your turns, but that's nothing special about RLS - it's true of literally any other card printed because it's what mana elfs do.
Anyone thinking this is either cheaper or faster with mana elves both hasn't thought this through and hasn't read the thread.
With or without elves, it costs 2 + <# of lands in play>
I mean with an elf you do get one extra mana on each of your turns, but that's nothing special about RLS - it's true of literally any other card printed because it's what mana elfs do.
Thing is: If you pay the cost of Rhonas last Stand with a land & a mana-elf, you can still have 3 Mana available turn 3, despite RlS drawback.
Anyone thinking this is either cheaper or faster with mana elves both hasn't thought this through and hasn't read the thread.
With or without elves, it costs 2 + <# of lands in play>
I mean with an elf you do get one extra mana on each of your turns, but that's nothing special about RLS - it's true of literally any other card printed because it's what mana elfs do.
Thing is: If you pay the cost of Rhonas last Stand with a land & a mana-elf, you can still have 3 Mana available turn 3, despite RlS drawback.
You're forgetting that if you want to cast something else you still incur the penalty no matter what. Mana dorks help, but on turn 3 you can only cast a 1 mana spell, and if you don't want both lands tapped you are still holding back because the card is making you do it, not because you chose to. The card holds you down a turn no matter what, mana dorks or not.
Your first point is correct. But even if i cast turn 2 Snake + something else by a mana-elf, that
sounds like an awesome turn 2 play actually d:)
Next turn then, i could still have 2 mana available, if i hit my 3rd land. Even if i dont, that was a strong turn 2-play.
Ill give you though, that this card is worse in T2, than in Frontier/Modern.
Your first point is correct. But even if i cast turn 2 Snake + something else by a mana-elf, that
sounds like an awesome turn 2 play actually d:)
Next turn then, i could still have 2 mana available, if i hit my 3rd land. Even if i dont, that was a strong turn 2-play.
Ill give you though, that this card is worse in T2, than in Frontier/Modern.
Even in those formats how many do you play so the drawback isn't hard hitting enough but you still get the benefit from a turn two play of this? If you put four in your deck having the drawback happen that much is back breaking. Play one or two and it may not be enough to see the card anyways.
Seems like you put too many in and you run into the issue of your opponent basically having extra turns or run too few and you might as well be playing any other cards, let them be beaters or answers.
Yeah, i wouldn run the full 4 either. I did experiment with 3 first in Frontier & it worked just right.
From playtest-results: The card is outstanding so far. It lands turn 2 & outclasses everything in size.
Even if not cast by mana-elf, many Decks just struggle with its size turn 2 unless they had Removal + were ahead. This ocurred very few times yet. But in my aggro-shell i caught up quickly & never really fell too far behind.
The card is just very tricky to use. Factoring in how many to play, Tailoring a Deck, capable of circumvent its disadvantage & calculating your mana-supply & the best timing to cast.
I really like such challenging cards that are so powerful
Why on earth would you play a monogreen deck with mana ramp alongside THIS? If you're using mana dorks, you should be using them to, you know...ramp into actual finishers. Monogreen stompy is a thing in Modern, but not one that could ever support this guy, and Elves would never waste slots on an out-of-tribe vanilla 5/4.
Put together an actual deck list with this dude and maybe you'll surprise me, but right now your theorycrafting looks like you're just realllllly stretching to find a way to make this card playable.
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Avacyns Pilgrim
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Blade Splicer
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Path to Exile
2x Declaration in Stone
3x Smugglers Copter
3x RHONAS LAST STAND
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
If you're running RLS before your 4th Goyf, you're doing something wrong.
Even in Frontier or Standard, I have a hard time envisioning a deck where Stand is better than Sylvan Advocate, Duskwatch Recruiter, Lambholt Pacifist or even Noose Constrictor/Heir of the Wilds.
I don't play Frontier, but that Modern deck has creatures, instants, sorceries, artifacts, planeswalkers and fetchlands. How can you say that it has trouble getting 'Goyf rolling? 'Goyf would be a vastly better fit there than this card. He'd also be castable on turn 2 through a mana dork even if you play Selesnya Sanctuary or a tapped Temple Garden, whereas your Avacyn's Pilgrim can't help to cast Last Stand. An opening hand with Forest + Heath as your lands is far more flexible with 'Goyf than with this card, which forces you to fetch out a Forest (and leave the rest of your hand probably unplayable) or else take three damage.
There's still no reason for you to be running this card, and your deck would be much better without it.
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What a damn nice trick. Really impressive!
Completed sets:
Iamur — The Underwater Set
Overworld — Pirates vs. Octopuses
Esparand — The Sands of Time
Unfinished Sets:
Siege of Ravnica — Eldrazi in Ravnica
Shandalar — The Mana Set
Iamur Reimagined — Iamur v2
You can find more creative projects on my page Antaresdesigns!
Turn 2 it is very strong. It is a risky gamble, for sure but the pay off is potentially great. Late game he becomes even better because you will typically have fewer cards to cast per turn and lots of mana to spare.
Currently, I see zero uses for this in modern.
I don't know about std but the dont untap clause is a little harsh for a vanilla 5/4. And AFAIK aggro decks value their mana curves.
Cult of the Succubi Eating Kitten and Brotherhood of Hamsters - Zombie One/Hulking One - Brotherhood of Hamsters disapproves of Damage on the Stack amputation, the corruption of Mythics,
and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
Removal is even more punishing against this. Normally it wouldn't matter if they just killed your turn 2 play, not a huge deal, but when your turn 2 play also Time Walks your own next turn it's something to think about even further. Not to mention when later on in the game you could induce a larger penalty on yourself. When you can't untap 6+ lands, potentially, it is going to hurt far more than just being unable to untap 2 lands.
Playing this later does not make it good. That's even more lands you can't untap; that's far worse. This doesn't magically choose only the lands you tapped to pay for it.
Playing this with mana dorks while keeping lands untapped does not make it good. That's making those lands unusable on that turn (since you're refusing to tap them) instead of on the next turn. Same thing, different time.
Playing this on turn 2 does not make it good. That's an aggro strat, so you're almost entirely giving up turn 3 in an aggro deck. Which is, uh, suicide.
There are ways to make the card more useful -- mostly edge cases in which you play multiple Last Stands in the same turn so that the drawback is mitigated -- but the above methods are not among them.
Yeah, but at best a Mini-Timewalk.
& that is only 2 bad, if opponent is already ahead or gets ahead in the next turn & on top of that, has Push in hand.
Many things that have to go well imo.
The thing is you get for 2 Mana something so impactful that dominates everything else early & opposed to other 2 Mana creatures, this Snake is more relevant later too.
Just for this lil cost.
I recommend playin it in Aggro, where you dont fall behind easily & in older formats undoubtlywith Mana-elves
I love such innovative cards with big potential d:)
Don't forget the fact that it costs GG, that's so restrictive to a mana base and sometimes makes ur land drop sequences bad if ur trying to force this out turn 2 as well. Not to mention lack of evasion and trades with heart of Kiran as well if need be.
With or without elves, it costs 2 + <# of lands in play>
I mean with an elf you do get one extra mana on each of your turns, but that's nothing special about RLS - it's true of literally any other card printed because it's what mana elfs do.
Thing is: If you pay the cost of Rhonas last Stand with a land & a mana-elf, you can still have 3 Mana available turn 3, despite RlS drawback.
You're forgetting that if you want to cast something else you still incur the penalty no matter what. Mana dorks help, but on turn 3 you can only cast a 1 mana spell, and if you don't want both lands tapped you are still holding back because the card is making you do it, not because you chose to. The card holds you down a turn no matter what, mana dorks or not.
sounds like an awesome turn 2 play actually d:)
Next turn then, i could still have 2 mana available, if i hit my 3rd land. Even if i dont, that was a strong turn 2-play.
Ill give you though, that this card is worse in T2, than in Frontier/Modern.
Even in those formats how many do you play so the drawback isn't hard hitting enough but you still get the benefit from a turn two play of this? If you put four in your deck having the drawback happen that much is back breaking. Play one or two and it may not be enough to see the card anyways.
Seems like you put too many in and you run into the issue of your opponent basically having extra turns or run too few and you might as well be playing any other cards, let them be beaters or answers.
From playtest-results: The card is outstanding so far. It lands turn 2 & outclasses everything in size.
Even if not cast by mana-elf, many Decks just struggle with its size turn 2 unless they had Removal + were ahead. This ocurred very few times yet. But in my aggro-shell i caught up quickly & never really fell too far behind.
The card is just very tricky to use. Factoring in how many to play, Tailoring a Deck, capable of circumvent its disadvantage & calculating your mana-supply & the best timing to cast.
I really like such challenging cards that are so powerful
Put together an actual deck list with this dude and maybe you'll surprise me, but right now your theorycrafting looks like you're just realllllly stretching to find a way to make this card playable.
& Decks with mana-elves (i dont mean specifically elves). also run 2 Mana stuff.
Heres my Frontier Deck.
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Greenbelt Rampager
4x Voltaic Brawler
3x Greenwheel Liberator
2x Bloodrage Brawler
2x Rhonas, the Indomitable
1x Rishkar, Peema-Renegade
4x Glorybringer
4x Harnessed Lightning
3x RHONAS LAST STAND
2x Smugglers Copter
2x Heart of Kiran
2x Arlinn Kord
5x Forest
2x Mountain
4x wooded foothills
4x Rootbound Crag soon ^^
3x Cinder Glade
3x Game Trail
& here my Modern Deck
3x Forest
1x Plains
2x Selesnya Sanctuary
4x Windswept Heath
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Temple Garden
4x Gavony Township
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Avacyns Pilgrim
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Blade Splicer
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Path to Exile
2x Declaration in Stone
3x Smugglers Copter
3x RHONAS LAST STAND
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
Even in Frontier or Standard, I have a hard time envisioning a deck where Stand is better than Sylvan Advocate, Duskwatch Recruiter, Lambholt Pacifist or even Noose Constrictor/Heir of the Wilds.
There's still no reason for you to be running this card, and your deck would be much better without it.