I'm 99% confident this card is trash, though. This effect has never been broken when it's priced this high.
Broken = Not Trash
Trash = Not Broken
Ergo, all cards except for "broken" effects are trash. Healthy mindset to have when evaluating cards, that!
Ah yes, you sussed out the exact meaning of my post. Well done. That was totally the point I've been making.
Let's think for a second about what's actually happening here. This card is expecting you to pay 5 or 6 mane to either cheat the top card of your library into play or one of the top three cards. At that rate, for this card to be good, you need to be doing something broken, like putting Eldrazi into play. Let's not pretend that you get to draw when you whiff makes any difference here. This effect has been printed around this mana cost many times, and is basically never playable.
The reason marvel, a similar effect, was so good was because it cost 4 mana, looked at 6, was repeatable, and could cast anything. Look at how many ways that is leaps and bounds better than this card, and that's how much pushing has to happen to make this effect good.
Let's look at another similar, playable version of this - tooth and nail. Lets you get two critters and search your entire library. Again better in many ways.
Sometimes two marginal effects stapled together on one card creates something playable because the versatility makes up for the weakness of either effect. This is not one of those times.
Would this have been good at scry 5? That way, turn one you could play this, set up your draws for the next turns, and reliably get something on turn 5.
I think this set is reminding me a lot of Mercadian Masques block right after the craziness they had in Urza's Saga. They probably should have held off maybe a set or two so that when Kaladesh rotated these cards might actually see a bit more play, though this isn't to say that this guy isn't playable somewhere.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There's no reason that Reason isn't an instant. Even at instant speed it would just be meh.
As for Scry vs index the old saying hope for the bedt but plan for the worst is the most appropriate thing here. You should be playing these cards assuming you wont find what you want in the top 3 or 5. In this case scry is way better because now you don't have to sit on the cards you don't want.
Driven to Despair gave me hope that they might actually print some aftermath cards where the aftermath half is actually playable and not way overcosted, so that they might be usable in a self-mill deck. Unless you're using Future Sight variants or heavy amounts of scry, the second half is probably too inconsistent to be usable without the first half being played beforehand, even if your deck is full of big creatures.
It's a fun build-around card, but not the kind I was looking for. I'm still holding out hope for there being a UB aftermath uncommon that might actually be playable in my Commander deck, but the chances are slim.
You know, putting the useless cards back to the bottom is nothing much different than putting them as the 3rd, 4th, and 5th card in the top (which is what Index allows you to do).
In addition, if you can access the fetch lands, you can easily shuffle those useless cards back to the deck. What is the difference between put those cards at the bottom or put them on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th at the top?
One more thing to notice. I am comparing this rare card with a garbage (almost...) common card, which is sad...
LOL this is like sweeping your dust under the rug vs in the garbage can. Index is very, very, very much worse than scry 3. Also, fetches are not in standard and formats with fetches likely have better blue spells than scry 3 or index lol.
You know, putting the useless cards back to the bottom is nothing much different than putting them as the 3rd, 4th, and 5th card in the top (which is what Index allows you to do).
In addition, if you can access the fetch lands, you can easily shuffle those useless cards back to the deck. What is the difference between put those cards at the bottom or put them on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th at the top?
One more thing to notice. I am comparing this rare card with a garbage (almost...) common card, which is sad...
LOL this is like sweeping your dust under the rug vs in the garbage can. Index is very, very, very much worse than scry 3. Also, fetches are not in standard and formats with fetches likely have better blue spells than scry 3 or index lol.
Index is very much worse than scry 3. I am tired of seeing the conclusion without reasoning.
If you cannot say anything to support your argument, it is fine.
To be honest, even you can prove it, this does not change the fact that this card is useless in any construct format.
Reason // Live is just fine, everyone around here is just getting bored and looking for something to complain about. Let me give you all a little tip: Go to the Custom Card creation board and post whatever it is you think this should have been there. Go on, get it out of your system. Then try finding some people who you don't personally know yet are willing to playtest your design, after you put it into a 200+ card set. Let them play a few draft games with no interference. Take note of their every move and ask them some relevant questions after the games are over. Then find a second group and repeat the process. Record the good and the bad, and don't get put out if someone complains about your design. Don't call them scrubs, because they're your prospective market and won't feel very compelled to play with or buy your product if they aren't going to be respected. And then watch as, no matter what you do, someone complains about your cards anyway.
I've seen this song and dance so many times now, it's gotten tiresome. Stuff like this is why I have probably the longest ignore list on this website. I'm not kidding when I say I have dozens of members on it. Because this is most all I see from users on that list. I'm not seeing anything new, constructive, or even entertaining, so why should I even see the posts in the first place?
Fact is, there's a bunch of users on here who got spoiled on their precious Lightning Bolts and Counterspells and Doom Blades and any number of other cheap, format-warping cards from way back that lead to lopsided experiences which they are too nearsighted to care about so long as they get to win. And when something different comes along that doesn't fit into their narrow little net.dec lists? They start churning out the "garbage" comments left and right.
When all I see on forums is a bunch of incessant harping on about cards that don't fit someone's distorted precedent, and about Jace and the Gatewatch, it gets REALLY FORKING ANNOYING and brings out my harsh side. Folks think these cards are garbage? I think those comments are garbage. And I don't have time to sift through garbage. Thus, I ignore them. And if people don't like my opinion? Tough. Part of having an opinion is having the right to call someone else's opinion out, and quite frankly I think a lot of them stink. Some folks probably think my opinion stinks. They have a right to think so, just as I have a right to think so of them. The blade of opinion cuts both ways.
But I find negativity toxic and draining. That's why I try to focus on having fun posting decklists and speculation. Quite frankly, I'm happy cards like this come along. I'm happy that Standard is more balanced now than it used to be. I'm happy that cards are dialed back to allow a little more breathing room. I don't always want my 3-damage burn spells to be Lightning Bolt. I was happy with Lightning Strike. I can handle Open Fire. I'm happy we don't have to deal with as many unfun cards in Standard. I'm not demanding, I just want to have fun talking about the cards we have now, the decks we get now, and the themes they represent.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I remember a few pros (and commentators) claimed that scry 3 was very close to drawing a card. It was discussed back in the day when Prognostic Sphinx was somewhere in Standard decks.
I think Curdbros is closest to what this card is made for : dig, ramp, cast a fatty. Oath of Nissa is already a fine card for such strats in Modern, but blue has never been the prefered color for a splash. This card probably helps since its ceiling is way higher than Oath, and those archetypes never see their opponents bring graveyard hate, usually.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Even if this card sees play, it's still horrible. That U side REALLY could have used a little bit more of a push imo.
But blue's the color they're most conservative about anyways. At least it's how it feels.
Lmao what? "Even if this card turns out to be good it's still bad". Lol okay sure
I'd put this into a UG midrange/ramp strategy. This isn't one big 6 cmc card. This is a card that says "Scry 3" for U and then gives you an activated ability for the rest of the game that says "Draw a card. If it's a creature play it." for 5. That's at least decent imo.
the card only seeing play because there's nothing better doesn't make it a good card. That was the point of my first sentence. I just think that Scry 3 for U is too much of a do nothing to see play unless you're in the most casual of kitchen tables.
I do not get your point at the beginning.
Suppose you are looking for a specific card.
Scry 3: You are searching this card from the top 3. If you hit, you get this card in the next draw. if not, put all of the top 3 at the bottom, and you might get this card from the 4th top card in the next draw.
Index: You are searching this card from the top 5. You get this card in the next draw. If you hit, you get this card in the next draw.
Suppose Index cannot give you the card from top 5 in the next draw, Scry 3 still cannot give you the card in the next draw.
Correct. But scry allows you to put any cards you don't want to see on the bottom of your deck, and Index does not. Basically, my initial point is that if you need something right now (or right next turn anyway), and anything after that point is worthless, then yes, Index is better. However, if that's not the case--and it usually isn't--then Scry is superior, because you would put all the cards you scried onto the bottom of your deck and move through your deck faster.
You know, putting the useless cards back to the bottom is nothing much different than putting them as the 3rd, 4th, and 5th card in the top (which is what Index allows you to do).
Er, you must very easy access to shuffling to make this claim. Because these effects are not similar in the least in their impact on deck progression.
In addition, if you can access the fetch lands, you can easily shuffle those useless cards back to the deck. What is the difference between put those cards at the bottom or put them on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th at the top?
If you have a fetchland, sure. What format are you suggesting to evaluate this in that has easy access to fetchlands?
And if you're asking what's the difference without shuffling it back, I'm not sure what to say to you at this point.
One more thing to notice. I am comparing this rare card with a garbage (almost...) common card, which is sad...
Oh, I can certainly agree that Index is a garbage card. Also, if this card only scried (IOW, if it was just the first part without Aftermath), it wouldn't be discussed in the least. I was more discussing the relative merits of 'Scry X' vs. 'Sort Y'.
Let's forget about fetch and shuffling stuff.
I am just talking about Scry 3 and Sort 5.
If your goal is looking for a specific key card, we all agree that Sort 5 is better than Scry 3.
If your goal is to filter out the useless cards from the top, Sort 5 (put the cards on the 3rd, 4th, or 5th at the top) does the jobs slightly worse than Scry 3 (put the cards at the bottom).
If you treat these two goals equally important, Sort 5 is on par with Scry 3.
Scry 3 is much better than sort 5.
In all points of the game there are certain cards you don't want. Being forced to keep two lands I'm your top 5 cards or being stuck with too many spells or expensive cards happen more often than not. I say this from experience since I've played both Sage Owl and Augur Owl in kitchen table and Scry is simply superior. Dead draws kill you and Scry removes them, or at least severely reduces their chances to happen.
But I find negativity toxic and draining. That's why I try to focus on having fun posting decklists and speculation. Quite frankly, I'm happy cards like this come along. I'm happy that Standard is more balanced now than it used to be. I'm happy that cards are dialed back to allow a little more breathing room. I don't always want my 3-damage burn spells to be Lightning Bolt. I was happy with Lightning Strike. I can handle Open Fire. I'm happy we don't have to deal with as many unfun cards in Standard. I'm not demanding, I just want to have fun talking about the cards we have now, the decks we get now, and the themes they represent.
I was being facetious with the whole "fateseal 3" thing.
I concur. My typical mode of thought is to figure out how a card can be used as opposed to how it cannot. If I am playing blue/red control in Standard I will be quite happy to use Reason // Believe because I probably don't have any other turn 1 plays, and scrying 3 will make certain that my next couple of draw steps are what I want, not turn 2 draw Torrential Gearhulk. Even if I draw the card later in the game, well, I can afford U on turn 5 and still leave up mana for counterspells or Glimmer.
The whole "omg this card sucks, standard sucks, Wizards sucks, how could they design such a stupid card, what were they thinking?, don't they know that *I* know how cards *should* be designed, why can't cards be like they were back in the good old days of whatever set it was when I first started playing?!?" gets really old really quickly. It happens with every new set spoiled now--each set is "the worst set ever made" and it forces people to declare "I am going to quit playing Magic". Oh, you are conceding? Not a problem.
Correct. But scry allows you to put any cards you don't want to see on the bottom of your deck, and Index does not. Basically, my initial point is that if you need something right now (or right next turn anyway), and anything after that point is worthless, then yes, Index is better. However, if that's not the case--and it usually isn't--then Scry is superior, because you would put all the cards you scried onto the bottom of your deck and move through your deck faster.
You know, putting the useless cards back to the bottom is nothing much different than putting them as the 3rd, 4th, and 5th card in the top (which is what Index allows you to do).
Er, you must very easy access to shuffling to make this claim. Because these effects are not similar in the least in their impact on deck progression.
In addition, if you can access the fetch lands, you can easily shuffle those useless cards back to the deck. What is the difference between put those cards at the bottom or put them on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th at the top?
If you have a fetchland, sure. What format are you suggesting to evaluate this in that has easy access to fetchlands?
And if you're asking what's the difference without shuffling it back, I'm not sure what to say to you at this point.
One more thing to notice. I am comparing this rare card with a garbage (almost...) common card, which is sad...
Oh, I can certainly agree that Index is a garbage card. Also, if this card only scried (IOW, if it was just the first part without Aftermath), it wouldn't be discussed in the least. I was more discussing the relative merits of 'Scry X' vs. 'Sort Y'.
Let's forget about fetch and shuffling stuff.
I am just talking about Scry 3 and Sort 5.
If your goal is looking for a specific key card, we all agree that Sort 5 is better than Scry 3.
If your goal is to filter out the useless cards from the top, Sort 5 (put the cards on the 3rd, 4th, or 5th at the top) does the jobs slightly worse than Scry 3 (put the cards at the bottom).
If you treat these two goals equally important, Sort 5 is on par with Scry 3.
Scry 3 is much better than sort 5.
In all points of the game there are certain cards you don't want. Being forced to keep two lands I'm your top 5 cards or being stuck with too many spells or expensive cards happen more often than not. I say this from experience since I've played both Sage Owl and Augur Owl in kitchen table and Scry is simply superior. Dead draws kill you and Scry removes them, or at least severely reduces their chances to happen.
This is maybe a worse case scenario where you have to put all of the three cards at the bottom, and hope you can get a better draw from the 4th card.
If you really need a key card and you do not hit from the top 5, the difference is:
Sort 5: You have to wait for 6 turns in order to get a new chance.
Scry 3: You have to wait for 3 turns in order to get a new chance, where the 3 useless cards are sent to the bottom of the deck.
Again, this is the worst case scenario for Sort 5.
The other way around , do you know what is the best case scenario for Sort 5?
Suppose the top 5 cards are all needed, in this case, Sort 5 does a much better job than Scry 3.
This is maybe a worse case scenario where you have to put all of the three cards at the bottom, and hope you can get a better draw from the 4th card.
If you really need a key card and you do not hit from the top 5, the difference is:
Sort 5: You have to wait for 6 turns in order to get a new chance.
Scry 3: You have to wait for 3 turns in order to get a new chance, where the 3 useless cards are sent to the bottom of the deck.
Again, this is the worst case scenario for Sort 5.
The other way around , do you know what is the best case scenario for Sort 5?
Suppose the top 5 cards are all needed, in this case, Sort 5 does a much better job than Scry 3.
It's not just about needing one key card. It's about setting up your following turns in order to get the best card flow. Hitting your land drops properly while not flooding is incredibly important, especially in slow blue decks that thrive upon getting to the late game. If I play Index with two lands in my hand and only find one in the top five, I'm going to have a lot of problems due to being stuck with the cards in question. In fact, it usually kills me. And it gets much worse when two of the five Index cards are finishers. This is not a corner case interaction, this is incredibly common.
Yes, you get two cards deeper with Index (and in the case of the owls, just one card deeper), but you severely underestimate the raw power of being able to dismiss cards you don't need for the next three (or five) turns. Index almost always gets you stuck with at least two cards you don't want, which means the investment of mana and tempo has very little payoff. Scry 3 has a much smaller chance of doing this.
Ah yes, you sussed out the exact meaning of my post. Well done. That was totally the point I've been making.
Let's think for a second about what's actually happening here. This card is expecting you to pay 5 or 6 mane to either cheat the top card of your library into play or one of the top three cards. At that rate, for this card to be good, you need to be doing something broken, like putting Eldrazi into play. Let's not pretend that you get to draw when you whiff makes any difference here. This effect has been printed around this mana cost many times, and is basically never playable.
The reason marvel, a similar effect, was so good was because it cost 4 mana, looked at 6, was repeatable, and could cast anything. Look at how many ways that is leaps and bounds better than this card, and that's how much pushing has to happen to make this effect good.
Let's look at another similar, playable version of this - tooth and nail. Lets you get two critters and search your entire library. Again better in many ways.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I was playing at the time and I can tell you your intuition is correct.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As for Scry vs index the old saying hope for the bedt but plan for the worst is the most appropriate thing here. You should be playing these cards assuming you wont find what you want in the top 3 or 5. In this case scry is way better because now you don't have to sit on the cards you don't want.
It's a fun build-around card, but not the kind I was looking for. I'm still holding out hope for there being a UB aftermath uncommon that might actually be playable in my Commander deck, but the chances are slim.
LOL this is like sweeping your dust under the rug vs in the garbage can. Index is very, very, very much worse than scry 3. Also, fetches are not in standard and formats with fetches likely have better blue spells than scry 3 or index lol.
Index is very much worse than scry 3. I am tired of seeing the conclusion without reasoning.
If you cannot say anything to support your argument, it is fine.
To be honest, even you can prove it, this does not change the fact that this card is useless in any construct format.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Reason // Live is just fine, everyone around here is just getting bored and looking for something to complain about. Let me give you all a little tip: Go to the Custom Card creation board and post whatever it is you think this should have been there. Go on, get it out of your system. Then try finding some people who you don't personally know yet are willing to playtest your design, after you put it into a 200+ card set. Let them play a few draft games with no interference. Take note of their every move and ask them some relevant questions after the games are over. Then find a second group and repeat the process. Record the good and the bad, and don't get put out if someone complains about your design. Don't call them scrubs, because they're your prospective market and won't feel very compelled to play with or buy your product if they aren't going to be respected. And then watch as, no matter what you do, someone complains about your cards anyway.
I've seen this song and dance so many times now, it's gotten tiresome. Stuff like this is why I have probably the longest ignore list on this website. I'm not kidding when I say I have dozens of members on it. Because this is most all I see from users on that list. I'm not seeing anything new, constructive, or even entertaining, so why should I even see the posts in the first place?
Fact is, there's a bunch of users on here who got spoiled on their precious Lightning Bolts and Counterspells and Doom Blades and any number of other cheap, format-warping cards from way back that lead to lopsided experiences which they are too nearsighted to care about so long as they get to win. And when something different comes along that doesn't fit into their narrow little net.dec lists? They start churning out the "garbage" comments left and right.
When all I see on forums is a bunch of incessant harping on about cards that don't fit someone's distorted precedent, and about Jace and the Gatewatch, it gets REALLY FORKING ANNOYING and brings out my harsh side. Folks think these cards are garbage? I think those comments are garbage. And I don't have time to sift through garbage. Thus, I ignore them. And if people don't like my opinion? Tough. Part of having an opinion is having the right to call someone else's opinion out, and quite frankly I think a lot of them stink. Some folks probably think my opinion stinks. They have a right to think so, just as I have a right to think so of them. The blade of opinion cuts both ways.
But I find negativity toxic and draining. That's why I try to focus on having fun posting decklists and speculation. Quite frankly, I'm happy cards like this come along. I'm happy that Standard is more balanced now than it used to be. I'm happy that cards are dialed back to allow a little more breathing room. I don't always want my 3-damage burn spells to be Lightning Bolt. I was happy with Lightning Strike. I can handle Open Fire. I'm happy we don't have to deal with as many unfun cards in Standard. I'm not demanding, I just want to have fun talking about the cards we have now, the decks we get now, and the themes they represent.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I think Curdbros is closest to what this card is made for : dig, ramp, cast a fatty. Oath of Nissa is already a fine card for such strats in Modern, but blue has never been the prefered color for a splash. This card probably helps since its ceiling is way higher than Oath, and those archetypes never see their opponents bring graveyard hate, usually.
the card only seeing play because there's nothing better doesn't make it a good card. That was the point of my first sentence. I just think that Scry 3 for U is too much of a do nothing to see play unless you're in the most casual of kitchen tables.
Scry 3 is much better than sort 5.
In all points of the game there are certain cards you don't want. Being forced to keep two lands I'm your top 5 cards or being stuck with too many spells or expensive cards happen more often than not. I say this from experience since I've played both Sage Owl and Augur Owl in kitchen table and Scry is simply superior. Dead draws kill you and Scry removes them, or at least severely reduces their chances to happen.
I was being facetious with the whole "fateseal 3" thing.
I concur. My typical mode of thought is to figure out how a card can be used as opposed to how it cannot. If I am playing blue/red control in Standard I will be quite happy to use Reason // Believe because I probably don't have any other turn 1 plays, and scrying 3 will make certain that my next couple of draw steps are what I want, not turn 2 draw Torrential Gearhulk. Even if I draw the card later in the game, well, I can afford U on turn 5 and still leave up mana for counterspells or Glimmer.
The whole "omg this card sucks, standard sucks, Wizards sucks, how could they design such a stupid card, what were they thinking?, don't they know that *I* know how cards *should* be designed, why can't cards be like they were back in the good old days of whatever set it was when I first started playing?!?" gets really old really quickly. It happens with every new set spoiled now--each set is "the worst set ever made" and it forces people to declare "I am going to quit playing Magic". Oh, you are conceding? Not a problem.
This is maybe a worse case scenario where you have to put all of the three cards at the bottom, and hope you can get a better draw from the 4th card.
If you really need a key card and you do not hit from the top 5, the difference is:
Sort 5: You have to wait for 6 turns in order to get a new chance.
Scry 3: You have to wait for 3 turns in order to get a new chance, where the 3 useless cards are sent to the bottom of the deck.
Again, this is the worst case scenario for Sort 5.
The other way around , do you know what is the best case scenario for Sort 5?
Suppose the top 5 cards are all needed, in this case, Sort 5 does a much better job than Scry 3.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
It's not just about needing one key card. It's about setting up your following turns in order to get the best card flow. Hitting your land drops properly while not flooding is incredibly important, especially in slow blue decks that thrive upon getting to the late game. If I play Index with two lands in my hand and only find one in the top five, I'm going to have a lot of problems due to being stuck with the cards in question. In fact, it usually kills me. And it gets much worse when two of the five Index cards are finishers. This is not a corner case interaction, this is incredibly common.
Yes, you get two cards deeper with Index (and in the case of the owls, just one card deeper), but you severely underestimate the raw power of being able to dismiss cards you don't need for the next three (or five) turns. Index almost always gets you stuck with at least two cards you don't want, which means the investment of mana and tempo has very little payoff. Scry 3 has a much smaller chance of doing this.