@SultaiAscendancy: UN drafts can be really fun. I remember someone using a Booster Tutor, getting a Radiate, then using the Radiate on an UN card that could destroy some form of permanent and wiping out the entire store, haha. Some of the stuff I could do without, like Shoe Tree I believe, but overall it's good, whimsical fun that will while a few hours away. They key thing for WOTC will be to not overprint, because demand will peter off eventually and the packs just won't get opened except for the basic lands. Ashnod's Coupon and R&D's Secret Lair was a fun combo as well., haha!
I don't doubt it. I'm certainly going to draft this set at least once, and perhaps more if I really like it. All I'm saying is that I really enjoyed Conspiracy drafts (Conspiracy 2 was one of the few sets I have drafted multiple times; I usually just try to draft each set once), so if this set is anything like it than it'll make limited that much more fun for me. Conspiracy is the closest thing to an un-set in black border so I wouldn't be surprised (or displeased) if there were some similarities. Conspiracy already played kind of lose with the rules, especially with draft matters, but was still black border. Just imagine what could happen if they expanded an un-set's craziness from just the game itself into the draft as well. What about a card that lets you steal a card from another player's draft pool? Or a bad card that you give to another player when you draft it, and they're forced to use it in their deck if it's in their draft pool? That's just off the top of my head; there are so many possibilities for draft matters in an un-set.
If you're hung up on tournament legality, this set was probably never for you: Un is as pure casual as it gets.
The marketers probably think this is a good gauge for how much they can sell something aimed entirely at the kitchen table. Conspiracy was successful, and I think this being greenlit is a direct result. I hope it goes well.
Actually, just to clarify, the Un- cards are only barred from any non-Un TOURNAMENT. They are perfectly legal in any tournament that allows Un- cards (hard as they may be to find) and IN ANY NON-TOURNAMENT GAME. I've actually taken to broadly proclaiming to any EDH table that I knowingly sit down to play with my 5 color Silver Bordered EDH deck that "I will pay anyone here $5 if you can point me out to the rule that states that I am not allowed to play Silver-Bordered cards in Commander." Almost always, one person tries to point out that they are not LEGACY legal, and therefore are not legal in Commander because Commander only allows Legacy legal cards (which is naturally why you can play Strip Mine and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, right?) Commander has its own Banlist, but officially, Wizards has mum to say about it except that they are not legal in any nonUn- tournaments.
Naturally I've never paid out that $5, and I almost always lose, but we have a helluva time slinging cardboard!
If you're hung up on tournament legality, this set was probably never for you: Un is as pure casual as it gets.
The marketers probably think this is a good gauge for how much they can sell something aimed entirely at the kitchen table. Conspiracy was successful, and I think this being greenlit is a direct result. I hope it goes well.
Actually, just to clarify, the Un- cards are only barred from any non-Un TOURNAMENT. They are perfectly legal in any tournament that allows Un- cards (hard as they may be to find) and IN ANY NON-TOURNAMENT GAME. I've actually taken to broadly proclaiming to any EDH table that I knowingly sit down to play with my 5 color Silver Bordered EDH deck that "I will pay anyone here $5 if you can point me out to the rule that states that I am not allowed to play Silver-Bordered cards in Commander. Almost always, one person tried to point out that they are not LEGACY legal, and therefore are not legal in Commander because Commander only allows Legacy legal cards (which is naturally why you can play Strip Mine and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, right?) Commander has its own Banlist, but officially, Wizards has mum to say about it except that they are not legal in any nonUn- tournaments.
Naturally I've never paid out that $5, and I almost always lose, bit we have a hellova time slinging cardboard!
From the official site:
Commander is played with vintage legal cards. Cards are legal to play with as of their sets' prerelease.
Un- cards are not Vintage legal, so they are not EDH legal. This is why Conspracies, Chaos Orb and Falling Star, and Ante cards are not legal either.
Now, EDH is a casual format so your group can do whatever it wants, but literally the first line under the banlist section on the official website says Un cards are not legal.
Also, while Strip Mine is not Legacy legal, Jace, the Mind Sculptor certainly is. I am not sure why you would think it isn't.
Remember my spikey brethren, most most most players play this GAME because games are fun.
And the un sets focus on fun. So as competitive-edge as so many of us are, let's not forget that un sets work (if silly) within the rules, and are part of a card game designed for enjoyment. So it's not just full art lands, friends!
I build many casual entry level decks to teach and give away to noobsters, and it always irks me when some other player sees a silver border card in a deck and tells the new player "eww, UN cards. Those are just joke cards" as if they don't work. They do. And for pure casual, they are often ppoowweerrffuull. Number Crunch ends up being card advantage VALUE. Common Courtesy, anyone?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Steamflogged
Human Rigger Rebels
Resisting The Tyranny of the Anti-Contraptionists. Viva L'Assemblage!
Modern-- Fish; Jund; Burn; Affinity; Mill Legacy--UGBFood Chain; UFish; UBRG Delver Commander--UB Sygg, River Cutthroat; W Isamaru, H.O.K.WRG Naya grouphug Enchantress 60 Card Singleton -- WB value drain UN- -- W Weenie (Wordmail on Knight of the Hokey Pokey is good beats)
Commander is played with vintage legal cards. Cards are legal to play with as of their sets' prerelease.
Un- cards are not Vintage legal, so they are not EDH legal. This is why Conspracies, Chaos Orb and Falling Star, and Ante cards are not legal either.
Now, EDH is a casual format so your group can do whatever it wants, but literally the first line under the banlist section on the official website says Un cards are not legal.
Also, while Strip Mine is not Legacy legal, Jace, the Mind Sculptor certainly is. I am not sure why you would think it isn't.
I will concede the point of Mind Sculptor. I was there when he was rotated out and banned in everything, so naturally I assumed that extended to Legacy as well. However, what I will not concede is the legality of Un- cards. Likewise from an equally (if not moreso) official site, the Vintage Banlist, complete with April 2017 update:
Revised: April 24, 2017
While Modern lets you play cards from as far back as 2003, Vintage lets you play cards from any set in the 20+ year history of Magic!
The following cards are banned from vintage play:
25 cards with the Card Type “Conspiracy.” Click here for list.
9 cards that reference "playing for ante." Click here for list.
Chaos Orb
Falling Star
Shahrazad...
Never does it mention the 230 Silver Bordered cards, or reference Silver Border anywhere. That's actually for the tournament document to clarify, which again states (for your convenience):
(from the section Tournament Rules > Authorized cards)
Players may use any Authorized Game Cards from Magic: The Gathering expansions, core sets, special sets, supplements, and promotional printings. Authorized Game Cards are cards that, unaltered, meet the following conditions:
The card is genuine and published by Wizards of the Coast
The card has a standard Magic back, is a double-faced card, or is a card that is part of a meld pair.
The card does not have squared corners.
The card has non-silver borders.
The card is not a token card.
... And so on and so forth. But when I sit down to a game of EDH with my Un-Deck, it's only to any non-tournament game. Even I'm not THAT thick.
Edit: Also, I'm keeping my $5, thanks!
Edit 2: Added the third individual banned card for Vintage, and also apparently the Banlist for commander is on the Mothership as well, next section down. Who knew?
No, I certainly get where you are coming from regarding being outside a tournament and I agree that you can use them if your playgroup is fine with it. But, if I told someone I wanted to play a game with them using the Vintage banlist, I would think I would get a lot of flak if I included Un cards as they are not typically thought of a Vintage legal. In fact, when you start talking legality by format, you are implicitly going off of tournament legality as most WoTC formats exist within the confines of a tournament structure. If someone wanted to play a non-tournament game of Vintage, I think it would be pretty hard to convince them that I can use Cheatyface. This is because when you identify any part of your banlist or format based off of another format, it inherently includes that format's tournament rules in terms of legal cards.
Now, that is the way I look at it and I admit would not want to play against anyone using Un cards in EDH. However, if the rest of the group wanted to though, I would be fine with it as it is just casual and (as you mentioned) tournament rules ultimately don't apply (unless you are playing with Frankie Peanuts in which case I am scooping right there).
As I mentioned, your group can do whatever it wants and realistically, there is nothing saying you can't play any cards in EDH if your group wanted to.
On another note, I am not sure I agree with the approach you outlined in your post though. I mean, it sounds like you would just show up to a random game, say you want to play with Un cards, and then say "the rules don't say I can't, so tough" if anyone disagreed with your inclusion of the cards. I can certainly see this being done among a group of friends who all agreed beforehand, and maybe that is what you do, but your post suggests something slightly different than that.
One thing to remember is the UN sets can lead to something else later one. When there are less constraints on what they can create suddenly it can lead to inspiration later they can use in the actual game. These could be potential breakthroughs for cards or mechanics they thought were impossible otherwise.
The biggest reason is that these are a lot of fun. Plus, I'm slightly sure they will stuff these with Masterpieces to help this sell well and the full art lands will be amazing to help it along. I hope that the full art lands have a nice swanky design on them like with Unglued.
I actually AM that bold. I do it every time. Usually the only player that objects to it is the one player (not same, just generalized) that is primed and ready to steamroll everyone with his "I WIN" stack that I'm sure noone really HONESTLY likes.
I sit down, size up the crowd, turn over my pile and shuffle as discreetly as I can, and make sociopathic/ambiguous lead-ons about my deck (such as "I have the most expensive starting hand.") Before turning over my first Silver-Bordered spell and filling everyone in on my game plan. Almost noone drops. They all want to stick it out to see what happens. Call it, Morbid Curiosity. I almost never win, the deck's construction makes it REALLY difficult.
To answer your question, I do indeed force it on random strangers/acquaintances/friends. I'm trying to break the stigma associated with Silver Border, and I've had little to no resistance. And the ones that complain weren't worth playing with anyways.
(Also, that's not the ONLY deck I show up with. I have a great many EDH decks, even some that are 90+% power because I like to knock down those people a peg or two. I know how to diversify the fun.)
(Also also, for clarification: my UNEDH deck is comprised of no black bordered cards except Full art Unhinged basics which I was lucky enough to cultivate from packs before they quintupled in price. And i have all but 20-ish cards from unhinged foiled, Including Richard, and all but one of the Holiday promo (running all but 3) in my deck. That makes it my most expensive EDH project. And with that ALL basics manabase, and no fixing, it's largely an inconsistent deck.))
Edit: (don't want to double post) Two weeks back when I resleeved my UNEDH deck again following a binge purchase of most of the Holiday promos I was missing via store credit, I threw this into the ring in the same manner I described above. One guy lost his sh**. In a good way. And after I'd dropped the little tidbit about silver border legality, he was inspired to go forth and construct his own UNEDH with which to play among his regular game group, using my exact argument above. We both got steamrolled (him playing a "legal" EDH and mine the UNEDH, by a guy playing Rhys the Redeemed) but there were so many laughs to be had... Those games are why I play Magic. The social interaction. Nothing fun, sitting across from an opponent who you know is pissed but isn't doing anything because sportsmanlike conduct, and then mismarks your results slip (and you don't catch it) and you go into round 2 thinking you're 1-0 and you've been reported as 0-1 (true story, happened the same day) and I'm sure it was an accident, but he later went on to get top 8, and he'd had a look... But I digress, I'm getting off topic. Point was, I'd played "real Magic" and then I'd played REAL Magic, and I was much more satisfied forcing my UNEDH onto everyone (and everyone else enjoyed it too.)
Edit 2: Also, just curious, why does Frankie Peanuts cause you to scoop? If it's the fabled Staying Power interaction, I've never been able to word something in a manner that would cause them to be stuck in a loop that would cause them to forego the rest of the game (or etc etc.) And make it unfun. If you word it like "Will you attack me next turn?" And they say no and you produce a staying power you're only obliged to abide by that answer (with an intervening "if able" clause) for that turn. Because any turn after that is not "next turn".
Edit 2: Also, just curious, why does Frankie Peanuts cause you to scoop? If it's the fabled Staying Power interaction, I've never been able to word something in a manner that would cause them to be stuck in a loop that would cause them to forego the rest of the game (or etc etc.) And make it unfun. If you word it like "Will you attack me next turn?" And they say no and you produce a staying power you're only obliged to abide by that answer (with an intervening "if able" clause) for that turn. Because any turn after that is not "next turn".
Since I brought it up, I can answer this question: I don't want to play against Frankie Peanuts because I want to play Magic; not navigate some weird word play realm where I have to be certain of exactly what is being asked and what I agree to. Yes, there are "simple" questions that can be handled ("will you attack me next turn?") but there are so many nuances to language that I don't want someone trying to "get" me with ridiculous questions.
Anyway, I guess that is fine that you have found a group to play with. I am excited for this set (contrary to what I think my posts are indicating). I like Un sets and I think they are fun and ridiculous and I would be lying if I didn't say I wanted to see what lands they have. This is a great thing for them to be doing as it fills a desire for a niche group of people that enjoy this kind of thing (as you appear to).
So, game one and I hope everyone has fun with the new set
I keep thinking about possible themes for an Un- Masterpiece series (previously in this thread I suggested Justifications)...but it just hit me, they can literally be anything, because:
Never does it mention the 230 Silver Bordered cards, or reference Silver Border anywhere. That's actually for the tournament document to clarify
You and your friends can do whatever you guys want, but you are playing some kind of modified house rules version of EDH. Un-cards are not legal in EDH.
The reason why the general rules don't name silver-border cards is because silver-border cards, by definition, are already not vintage legal. They do have to name black border cards that they don't want in vintage because they are not by definition banned in vintage, unlike un-cards.
The fact that the tournament rules name silver-border cards does not prove that silver-border is legal in non-tournament games. It is merely an unnecessary clarification. Your group is letting you get away with it because there are probably no stakes other than pride, its casual, and they are curious. Which is fine, but you aren't playing EDH any more. Its now casual kitchen table magic.
Commander is played with vintage legal cards. Cards are legal to play with as of their sets' prerelease.
Un- cards are not Vintage legal, so they are not EDH legal. This is why Conspracies, Chaos Orb and Falling Star, and Ante cards are not legal either.
Now, EDH is a casual format so your group can do whatever it wants, but literally the first line under the banlist section on the official website says Un cards are not legal.
Also, while Strip Mine is not Legacy legal, Jace, the Mind Sculptor certainly is. I am not sure why you would think it isn't.
I will concede the point of Mind Sculptor. I was there when he was rotated out and banned in everything, so naturally I assumed that extended to Legacy as well. However, what I will not concede is the legality of Un- cards. Likewise from an equally (if not moreso) official site, the Vintage Banlist, complete with April 2017 update:
Revised: April 24, 2017
While Modern lets you play cards from as far back as 2003, Vintage lets you play cards from any set in the 20+ year history of Magic!
The following cards are banned from vintage play:
25 cards with the Card Type “Conspiracy.” Click here for list.
9 cards that reference "playing for ante." Click here for list.
Chaos Orb
Falling Star
Shahrazad...
Never does it mention the 230 Silver Bordered cards, or reference Silver Border anywhere. That's actually for the tournament document to clarify, which again states (for your convenience):
(from the section Tournament Rules > Authorized cards)
Players may use any Authorized Game Cards from Magic: The Gathering expansions, core sets, special sets, supplements, and promotional printings. Authorized Game Cards are cards that, unaltered, meet the following conditions:
The card is genuine and published by Wizards of the Coast
The card has a standard Magic back, is a double-faced card, or is a card that is part of a meld pair.
The card does not have squared corners.
The card has non-silver borders.
The card is not a token card.
... And so on and so forth. But when I sit down to a game of EDH with my Un-Deck, it's only to any non-tournament game. Even I'm not THAT thick.
Edit: Also, I'm keeping my $5, thanks!
Edit 2: Added the third individual banned card for Vintage, and also apparently the Banlist for commander is on the Mothership as well, next section down. Who knew?
While you are indeed correct that the Vintage ban list does not explicitly ban silver-border cards, this is one of those "forest for the trees" scenarios - the reason silver-border cards are not banned is because they are not included in the Vintage card pool to begin with. With the exception of the Conspiracy card type, all of the cards banned in Vintage (and by extension, all other Magic formats) were originally legal in the format in the early days of MTG, before manual dexterity cards and ante fell out of favor (Shaharazad is banned because of course it is).
For a card to be banned in Vintage, it either needs to have at some point been a legal card or appear as if it might be, which is why the Conspiracy card type is explicitly banned (non-token black-bordered cards printed in packs would otherwise be legal by default in eternal formats) but Planechase plane cards aren't. Un-set cards are joke cards - functional joke cards, but still joke cards, they exist outside the regular game of MTG (Un-sets are not considered expansions of the official game), so your entire argument is operating from a flawed premise. The Vintage ban list doesn't mention Pokemon cards either, and WotC used to print those.
Riddle me this, Northjayhawk, (Is that a Question Elemental in my play area?) If it is such a superfluous rule, since the inherent nature of Silver bordered cards means that they are banned in Vintage, and as you say, it is an "unnecessary clarification" Why then is it in the tournament document? Wouldn't we just refer to the "unwritten rule" that Silver bordered cards are banned in Vintage format? "Duh, n00b you should know this." (darn, sacced the question elemental!)
Also, when explaining the rules to someone who is not in the know about these things, to where do you reference that silver bordered cards are banned in Vintage? Because, again, I'll mail anyone a $5 bill if they can show me that rule ANYWHERE. Please! Show me the error of my ways!
Riddle me this, Northjayhawk, (Is that a Question Elemental in my play area?) If it is such a superfluous rule, since the inherent nature of Silver bordered cards means that they are banned in Vintage, and as you say, it is an "unnecessary clarification" Why then is it in the tournament document? Wouldn't we just refer to the "unwritten rule" that Silver bordered cards are banned in Vintage format? "Duh, n00b you should know this." (darn, sacced the question elemental!)
Also, when explaining the rules to someone who is not in the know about these things, to where do you reference that silver bordered cards are banned in Vintage? Because, again, I'll mail anyone a $5 bill if they can show me that rule ANYWHERE. Please! Show me the error of my ways!
You are relying on an argument that silver border is legal in EDH by implication. (mentioned in tournament rules but not vintage banned list)
However, there is a very strong argument by implication, MUCH stronger than yours, that silver border is not allowed in Vintage, or indeed any game of Magic by implication. Silver border mechanics are not addressed at all in the official rules. In kitchen table magic you can do whatever you want and can even make up your own rules. However, when players agree to play a game of magic in a defined format, they are also agreeing that the game be governed by the official rules of magic. The official rules do not address the wacky mechanics in silver border world at all, so by implication, they are illegal outside of kitchen table magic.
The rules manager has washed his hands of un-sets, their stance is basically "if you are confused about something on a silver border card, ask Mark Rosewater, its his fault so maybe he can help you, otherwise do whatever you want"
Apples and Oranges my friend. The reason that you can't play Pokemon cards in the game of Magic is that they were never a part of the Magic game to begin with (although I'm sure I can find a specific... Ah yes! Here is is!)
(From the Comprehensive Rules, Article 1. Game Concepts, Section 100 General)
100.2. To play, each player needs his or her own deck of traditional Magic cards, small items to represent any tokens and counters, and some way to clearly track life totals.
100.2a In constructed play (a way of playing in which each player creates his or her own deck ahead of time), each deck must contain at least sixty cards. A constructed deck may contain any number of basic land cards and no more than four of any card with a particular English name other than basic land cards.
So that is why we can't play Vampire the Masquerade cards, or Netrunner Cards, or Pokemon cards.
It still doesn't say that "silver bordered cards are inherently banned."
So at this point, it seems we've reached ourselves an impasse. To rectify this, I've got a solution. I will ask Matt Tabak, the Magic Rules Manager and see what he has to say, for better or worse.
And the reason this irks me as bad as it does, is the same reason that you correct a new player when they try to put 3 swamps on the battlefield when they cast Dark Ritual. It bothers me greatly that most Magic players are so unaware of the rules. They usually go by what is taught to them as LAW by the people that taught them. This is a reeducation in the ways of Silver Bordered. Learn, or don't but don't misrepresent the game.
Apples and Oranges my friend. The reason that you can't play Pokemon cards in the game of Magic is that they were never a part of the Magic game to begin with (although I'm sure I can find a specific... Ah yes! Here is is!)
[Quote](From the Comprehensive Rules, Article 1. Game Concepts, Section 100 General)
100.2. To play, each player needs his or her own deck of traditional Magic cards, small items to represent any tokens and counters, and some way to clearly track life totals.
100.2a In constructed play (a way of playing in which each player creates his or her own deck ahead of time), each deck must contain at least sixty cards. A constructed deck may contain any number of basic land cards and no more than four of any card with a particular English name other than basic land cards.
That was intended to demonstrate how ridiculous your position is, you are essentially employing the "Air Bud" argument and asking us to show you where in the rules it says you can't do something. There isn't an impasse though, since the problem is just that you are looking in the wrong place - we can't find a passage to quote from the comprehensive rules regarding the legality of silver-border cards for the same reason we can't point you to where in the comprehensive rules it defines which cards are legal in Modern: the comprehensive rules don't cover formats AT ALL, except where they involve variations on how the game itself is played, and the rules covering those additions/changes to normal Magic. The specific legality of cards in sanctioned formats is covered in the tournament rules that you have already quoted from, and chosen to ignore, where it did in fact explicitly say you can't use silver-border cards in Vintage.
Your hang up is the belief that not playing in a tournament means that tournament deckbuilding restrictions don't apply, but that is patently false - if you are playing a game of Vintage, you are using a deck that follows the Vintage format tournament rules for deck construction, regardless of whether or not you are actually playing in a sanctioned tournament or at your kitchen table. If your deck does not adhere to those rules, then you are not playing a game of Vintage; the rules of deck construction are what defines formats in the first place, Standard, Modern, Legacy and Vintage would be identical otherwise. Commander is intended to be a casual multiplayer format, and so was not really meant to be played in sanctioned tournaments, but it still derives its card pool from the set of all cards legal in Vintage (minus a ban list, with additional format-specific deckbuilding restrictions), and the set of cards legal in Vintage does not include silver-border cards.
I think your deck sounds hilarious, but if you tell people that it is a legal Commander deck then you are lying to them - by all means keep playing it, just understand that when you do the game you are playing is no longer Commander.
MaRo's take on this argument (bolding added by me for emphasis):
"Commander is a casual format. If you and your friends all want to add silver border cards, you can. A silver border card can’t make itself legal in black border formats."
One says that it's legal in Vintage / Commander; the other does not. I'm sure noone will be surprised that every non-basic card from Unglued and Unhinged excludes legality options for anything other than Un-Sets.
I still have fond memories of the guy at my uni who played a deck with all the "Double" cards from Unglused, and had a dedicated notebook to record which of them he'd played in his last game against each person he played against.
I am very sorry, tsuma, but it is very clear from blogatog that the cards in Unstable will all be in silver border with exceptions like basic lands.
MaRo will not waste a single card slot that could used for a silver-bordered card on a black-bordered card that could be printed in any other set ever.
And a personal point here; do you think we perhaps have some returning mechanic from the previous Un sets? Not Gotcha, at least; MaRo already said it's bad for the game. But something like artist matters could be fun. Imagine one powerful card whose artist only makes that one card for Unstable, and then everyone plays Persecute Artist naming that artist over and over because they just don't WANT that card played? And then in this scenario, said artist happens to be Rebecca Guay.....
And also reminds me on Richard Garfield; would we ever have more Magic staff/related people as legendary creatures? That could be fun
I don't doubt it. I'm certainly going to draft this set at least once, and perhaps more if I really like it. All I'm saying is that I really enjoyed Conspiracy drafts (Conspiracy 2 was one of the few sets I have drafted multiple times; I usually just try to draft each set once), so if this set is anything like it than it'll make limited that much more fun for me. Conspiracy is the closest thing to an un-set in black border so I wouldn't be surprised (or displeased) if there were some similarities. Conspiracy already played kind of lose with the rules, especially with draft matters, but was still black border. Just imagine what could happen if they expanded an un-set's craziness from just the game itself into the draft as well. What about a card that lets you steal a card from another player's draft pool? Or a bad card that you give to another player when you draft it, and they're forced to use it in their deck if it's in their draft pool? That's just off the top of my head; there are so many possibilities for draft matters in an un-set.
Actually, just to clarify, the Un- cards are only barred from any non-Un TOURNAMENT. They are perfectly legal in any tournament that allows Un- cards (hard as they may be to find) and IN ANY NON-TOURNAMENT GAME. I've actually taken to broadly proclaiming to any EDH table that I knowingly sit down to play with my 5 color Silver Bordered EDH deck that "I will pay anyone here $5 if you can point me out to the rule that states that I am not allowed to play Silver-Bordered cards in Commander." Almost always, one person tries to point out that they are not LEGACY legal, and therefore are not legal in Commander because Commander only allows Legacy legal cards (which is naturally why you can play Strip Mine and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, right?) Commander has its own Banlist, but officially, Wizards has mum to say about it except that they are not legal in any nonUn- tournaments.
Naturally I've never paid out that $5, and I almost always lose, but we have a helluva time slinging cardboard!
From the official site:
Commander is played with vintage legal cards. Cards are legal to play with as of their sets' prerelease.
Un- cards are not Vintage legal, so they are not EDH legal. This is why Conspracies, Chaos Orb and Falling Star, and Ante cards are not legal either.
Now, EDH is a casual format so your group can do whatever it wants, but literally the first line under the banlist section on the official website says Un cards are not legal.
Also, while Strip Mine is not Legacy legal, Jace, the Mind Sculptor certainly is. I am not sure why you would think it isn't.
And the un sets focus on fun. So as competitive-edge as so many of us are, let's not forget that un sets work (if silly) within the rules, and are part of a card game designed for enjoyment. So it's not just full art lands, friends!
I build many casual entry level decks to teach and give away to noobsters, and it always irks me when some other player sees a silver border card in a deck and tells the new player "eww, UN cards. Those are just joke cards" as if they don't work. They do. And for pure casual, they are often ppoowweerrffuull. Number Crunch ends up being card advantage VALUE. Common Courtesy, anyone?
The Steamflogged
Human Rigger Rebels
Resisting The Tyranny of the Anti-Contraptionists.
Viva L'Assemblage!
Legacy--UGBFood Chain; UFish; UBRG Delver
Commander--UB Sygg, River Cutthroat; W Isamaru, H.O.K.WRG Naya grouphug Enchantress
60 Card Singleton -- WB value drain
UN- -- W Weenie (Wordmail on Knight of the Hokey Pokey is good beats)
I will concede the point of Mind Sculptor. I was there when he was rotated out and banned in everything, so naturally I assumed that extended to Legacy as well. However, what I will not concede is the legality of Un- cards. Likewise from an equally (if not moreso) official site, the Vintage Banlist, complete with April 2017 update:
Revised: April 24, 2017
While Modern lets you play cards from as far back as 2003, Vintage lets you play cards from any set in the 20+ year history of Magic!
The following cards are banned from vintage play:
25 cards with the Card Type “Conspiracy.” Click here for list.
9 cards that reference "playing for ante." Click here for list.
Chaos Orb
Falling Star
Shahrazad...
Never does it mention the 230 Silver Bordered cards, or reference Silver Border anywhere. That's actually for the tournament document to clarify, which again states (for your convenience):
(from the section Tournament Rules > Authorized cards)
Players may use any Authorized Game Cards from Magic: The Gathering expansions, core sets, special sets, supplements, and promotional printings. Authorized Game Cards are cards that, unaltered, meet the following conditions:
The card is genuine and published by Wizards of the Coast
The card has a standard Magic back, is a double-faced card, or is a card that is part of a meld pair.
The card does not have squared corners.
The card has non-silver borders.
The card is not a token card.
... And so on and so forth. But when I sit down to a game of EDH with my Un-Deck, it's only to any non-tournament game. Even I'm not THAT thick.
Edit: Also, I'm keeping my $5, thanks!
Edit 2: Added the third individual banned card for Vintage, and also apparently the Banlist for commander is on the Mothership as well, next section down. Who knew?
Now, that is the way I look at it and I admit would not want to play against anyone using Un cards in EDH. However, if the rest of the group wanted to though, I would be fine with it as it is just casual and (as you mentioned) tournament rules ultimately don't apply (unless you are playing with Frankie Peanuts in which case I am scooping right there).
As I mentioned, your group can do whatever it wants and realistically, there is nothing saying you can't play any cards in EDH if your group wanted to.
On another note, I am not sure I agree with the approach you outlined in your post though. I mean, it sounds like you would just show up to a random game, say you want to play with Un cards, and then say "the rules don't say I can't, so tough" if anyone disagreed with your inclusion of the cards. I can certainly see this being done among a group of friends who all agreed beforehand, and maybe that is what you do, but your post suggests something slightly different than that.
The biggest reason is that these are a lot of fun. Plus, I'm slightly sure they will stuff these with Masterpieces to help this sell well and the full art lands will be amazing to help it along. I hope that the full art lands have a nice swanky design on them like with Unglued.
I'll draft anything to kingdom come if it's good.
Conspiracy/commander/whatever products have an audience. Some people enjoy wackiness.
My CubeCobra (draft 20 card packs, 2 packs.)
430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
Manamath Article
I actually AM that bold. I do it every time. Usually the only player that objects to it is the one player (not same, just generalized) that is primed and ready to steamroll everyone with his "I WIN" stack that I'm sure noone really HONESTLY likes.
I sit down, size up the crowd, turn over my pile and shuffle as discreetly as I can, and make sociopathic/ambiguous lead-ons about my deck (such as "I have the most expensive starting hand.") Before turning over my first Silver-Bordered spell and filling everyone in on my game plan. Almost noone drops. They all want to stick it out to see what happens. Call it, Morbid Curiosity. I almost never win, the deck's construction makes it REALLY difficult.
To answer your question, I do indeed force it on random strangers/acquaintances/friends. I'm trying to break the stigma associated with Silver Border, and I've had little to no resistance. And the ones that complain weren't worth playing with anyways.
(Also, that's not the ONLY deck I show up with. I have a great many EDH decks, even some that are 90+% power because I like to knock down those people a peg or two. I know how to diversify the fun.)
(Also also, for clarification: my UNEDH deck is comprised of no black bordered cards except Full art Unhinged basics which I was lucky enough to cultivate from packs before they quintupled in price. And i have all but 20-ish cards from unhinged foiled, Including Richard, and all but one of the Holiday promo (running all but 3) in my deck. That makes it my most expensive EDH project. And with that ALL basics manabase, and no fixing, it's largely an inconsistent deck.))
Edit: (don't want to double post) Two weeks back when I resleeved my UNEDH deck again following a binge purchase of most of the Holiday promos I was missing via store credit, I threw this into the ring in the same manner I described above. One guy lost his sh**. In a good way. And after I'd dropped the little tidbit about silver border legality, he was inspired to go forth and construct his own UNEDH with which to play among his regular game group, using my exact argument above. We both got steamrolled (him playing a "legal" EDH and mine the UNEDH, by a guy playing Rhys the Redeemed) but there were so many laughs to be had... Those games are why I play Magic. The social interaction. Nothing fun, sitting across from an opponent who you know is pissed but isn't doing anything because sportsmanlike conduct, and then mismarks your results slip (and you don't catch it) and you go into round 2 thinking you're 1-0 and you've been reported as 0-1 (true story, happened the same day) and I'm sure it was an accident, but he later went on to get top 8, and he'd had a look... But I digress, I'm getting off topic. Point was, I'd played "real Magic" and then I'd played REAL Magic, and I was much more satisfied forcing my UNEDH onto everyone (and everyone else enjoyed it too.)
Edit 2: Also, just curious, why does Frankie Peanuts cause you to scoop? If it's the fabled Staying Power interaction, I've never been able to word something in a manner that would cause them to be stuck in a loop that would cause them to forego the rest of the game (or etc etc.) And make it unfun. If you word it like "Will you attack me next turn?" And they say no and you produce a staying power you're only obliged to abide by that answer (with an intervening "if able" clause) for that turn. Because any turn after that is not "next turn".
Anyway, I guess that is fine that you have found a group to play with. I am excited for this set (contrary to what I think my posts are indicating). I like Un sets and I think they are fun and ridiculous and I would be lying if I didn't say I wanted to see what lands they have. This is a great thing for them to be doing as it fills a desire for a niche group of people that enjoy this kind of thing (as you appear to).
So, game one and I hope everyone has fun with the new set
You and your friends can do whatever you guys want, but you are playing some kind of modified house rules version of EDH. Un-cards are not legal in EDH.
The reason why the general rules don't name silver-border cards is because silver-border cards, by definition, are already not vintage legal. They do have to name black border cards that they don't want in vintage because they are not by definition banned in vintage, unlike un-cards.
The fact that the tournament rules name silver-border cards does not prove that silver-border is legal in non-tournament games. It is merely an unnecessary clarification. Your group is letting you get away with it because there are probably no stakes other than pride, its casual, and they are curious. Which is fine, but you aren't playing EDH any more. Its now casual kitchen table magic.
For a card to be banned in Vintage, it either needs to have at some point been a legal card or appear as if it might be, which is why the Conspiracy card type is explicitly banned (non-token black-bordered cards printed in packs would otherwise be legal by default in eternal formats) but Planechase plane cards aren't. Un-set cards are joke cards - functional joke cards, but still joke cards, they exist outside the regular game of MTG (Un-sets are not considered expansions of the official game), so your entire argument is operating from a flawed premise. The Vintage ban list doesn't mention Pokemon cards either, and WotC used to print those.
Also, when explaining the rules to someone who is not in the know about these things, to where do you reference that silver bordered cards are banned in Vintage? Because, again, I'll mail anyone a $5 bill if they can show me that rule ANYWHERE. Please! Show me the error of my ways!
You are relying on an argument that silver border is legal in EDH by implication. (mentioned in tournament rules but not vintage banned list)
However, there is a very strong argument by implication, MUCH stronger than yours, that silver border is not allowed in Vintage, or indeed any game of Magic by implication. Silver border mechanics are not addressed at all in the official rules. In kitchen table magic you can do whatever you want and can even make up your own rules. However, when players agree to play a game of magic in a defined format, they are also agreeing that the game be governed by the official rules of magic. The official rules do not address the wacky mechanics in silver border world at all, so by implication, they are illegal outside of kitchen table magic.
The rules manager has washed his hands of un-sets, their stance is basically "if you are confused about something on a silver border card, ask Mark Rosewater, its his fault so maybe he can help you, otherwise do whatever you want"
Apples and Oranges my friend. The reason that you can't play Pokemon cards in the game of Magic is that they were never a part of the Magic game to begin with (although I'm sure I can find a specific... Ah yes! Here is is!)
So that is why we can't play Vampire the Masquerade cards, or Netrunner Cards, or Pokemon cards.
It still doesn't say that "silver bordered cards are inherently banned."
So at this point, it seems we've reached ourselves an impasse. To rectify this, I've got a solution. I will ask Matt Tabak, the Magic Rules Manager and see what he has to say, for better or worse.
And the reason this irks me as bad as it does, is the same reason that you correct a new player when they try to put 3 swamps on the battlefield when they cast Dark Ritual. It bothers me greatly that most Magic players are so unaware of the rules. They usually go by what is taught to them as LAW by the people that taught them. This is a reeducation in the ways of Silver Bordered. Learn, or don't but don't misrepresent the game.
Your hang up is the belief that not playing in a tournament means that tournament deckbuilding restrictions don't apply, but that is patently false - if you are playing a game of Vintage, you are using a deck that follows the Vintage format tournament rules for deck construction, regardless of whether or not you are actually playing in a sanctioned tournament or at your kitchen table. If your deck does not adhere to those rules, then you are not playing a game of Vintage; the rules of deck construction are what defines formats in the first place, Standard, Modern, Legacy and Vintage would be identical otherwise. Commander is intended to be a casual multiplayer format, and so was not really meant to be played in sanctioned tournaments, but it still derives its card pool from the set of all cards legal in Vintage (minus a ban list, with additional format-specific deckbuilding restrictions), and the set of cards legal in Vintage does not include silver-border cards.
I think your deck sounds hilarious, but if you tell people that it is a legal Commander deck then you are lying to them - by all means keep playing it, just understand that when you do the game you are playing is no longer Commander.
"Commander is a casual format. If you and your friends all want to add silver border cards, you can. A silver border card can’t make itself legal in black border formats."
vs.
One says that it's legal in Vintage / Commander; the other does not. I'm sure noone will be surprised that every non-basic card from Unglued and Unhinged excludes legality options for anything other than Un-Sets.
Spike, Power Gamer
{P/B}{P/B}{P/B}1
6/6
Is pretty Mythic and entirely in keeping with Spike's idea.
MaRo will not waste a single card slot that could used for a silver-bordered card on a black-bordered card that could be printed in any other set ever.
He is remarkably clear and on-record about this.
And a personal point here; do you think we perhaps have some returning mechanic from the previous Un sets? Not Gotcha, at least; MaRo already said it's bad for the game. But something like artist matters could be fun. Imagine one powerful card whose artist only makes that one card for Unstable, and then everyone plays Persecute Artist naming that artist over and over because they just don't WANT that card played? And then in this scenario, said artist happens to be Rebecca Guay.....
And also reminds me on Richard Garfield; would we ever have more Magic staff/related people as legendary creatures? That could be fun