I think I said I didn't agree with him when he posted that. The problem is that Hasbro wanted something to promote Hascon and Wizards had to rapid fire develop a masters set that could be showcased in the summer, meaning it would have to be released in the fall. I don't disagree that both iconic masters and masters 25 are designed with the same philosophy, though, which is why the booster box pre-sale values are dropping from 184 dollars a box to 170 a box on TCGPlayer and ebay. Rogue Deck Builder can't even beg his patrons into buying the darn boxes: No one wants one. Then again we're sort of in the same boat with Rivals of Ixalan.
This company is in a seriously bad spot right now with sealed product sales outside of Unstable and maybe challenger deck presales, but the challenger decks are arbitrage friendly for stores, which is extremely rare. Something is happening over there and I hope it carries over to other formats.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Box of Masters 25 is definately gamble on foils. There is a lote of foils that pay the pack, and the good part is that many are commons or uncommons. Masters 25 probably has the biggest EV in foils that any other Master set. Sure, we need to see those prices after the market in flooded with boxes that no one want.
Box of Masters 25 is definately gamble on foils. There is a lote of foils that pay the pack, and the good part is that many are commons or uncommons. Masters 25 probably has the biggest EV in foils that any other Master set. Sure, we need to see those prices after the market in flooded with boxes that no one want.
I'd say the most redemptive quality is the commons/uncommons in the set. I really want recruiter to fall enough that getting one isn't too much of a financial endeavor. I'd love a foil but not at 150 USD.
What I think happened is that WoTC wanted to figure out a way to reprint commander and old casual cards outside of a commander set and figured they could use the masters series to do it. The only trouble with this is that the demand on commander staples is very different from demand on modern staples. People need 4x Mox Opal in both lantern control and artifact rush, where as commander players only need one Animar, Soul of the Elements or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. When the cards do get reprinted their prices tank and then don't bounce back until maybe two years later. It's for that reason that it is totally plausible to reprint things like the aformentioned commander staples in a normal draft set like battle bond even if the price seems a bit high.
His point is more that reprints of ultra-low supply cards will crater prices that are propped up by their rarity (think ABU, Portal 3 kingdoms type rarity) versus relatively high demand high price cards (Goyf, Lili, fetches, etc) which will just deflate a little.
I think Wizards will adapt from the poor showing that Iconic Masters was and that Masters 25 likely will be, such that the next set will probably have a better mix that stands up to the value proposition.
They really need to start doing something about their masters sets, as soley a commander player I love reprints of commander staples but I also love them reprinting quality cards that see play in other formats just as much due to how much play they also see in commander. Seeing cards like Prossh and Animar get a foil set printing is good, but I'd rather they just release some sort of supplemental commander gift boxes or some shizzle if it means sacrificing too many slots in masters sets to them.
My next thought is balancing it for limited, while drafting is very fun and obviously is a huge part of the game I'd much rather pay $40 for some suped-up set that is basically like some one's cube filled with value reprints for the health of the game, rather than playing some forced draft archetype the brought the value of my prize boosters down to barely about a RIX draft.
Which leads me to point number 3: too much respect for the secondary market, the health of the game and availability of cards should come far above worry about collectors and speculators taking a hit on you reprinting a card. I'm not saying we need Jaces and Goyfs to be $4 mythics but come on, crap like tree of redemption has no place in a set you want to charge premium prices for. I think it was around conspiracy 2 that I realised they have far too much respect for the secondary market in some cases: they reprinted inquisition of Kozilek at rare in a set designed soley for limited and multiplayer....two places where targeted discard are not so great. Which sounds good on paper because you get less of them but when you're basically drafting for some big bomb to kill 3 people opening inquisition as your rare really doesn't help.
I agree with all of this - sadly it seems the only way to get EDH staples is supplementals like FtV series, and Commander's Arsenal, which are still an absolute gouging.
WotC has made FAR too many binding promises to collectors - people who don't even actively pay it forward to the community at large - they hoard their collectibles like Smaug in the Hobbit - no one else is allowed their bounty. How is that productive, or of financial benefit to Wizards? The way I see it the reserved list can only last so long, before the weight of newer players clamouring for reprints become backbreaking for the company.
This company is in a seriously bad spot right now with sealed product sales outside of Unstable and maybe challenger deck presales, but the challenger decks are arbitrage friendly for stores, which is extremely rare. Something is happening over there and I hope it carries over to other formats.
The sealed product distribution model was solely based on the exact same model as loot boxes/crates which has become a recent practice within the Video Game Industry that Congress is currently looking into. If they come to the conclusion that loot boxes/crates are classified as gambling then past case law doesn't matter. The companies behind this business model are still going to be charged with a misdemeanor or a felony regardless of what happens.
The Trading Card Game/Collectible Card Game business model would be forced to go out of business because the practice would be considered illegal as far as the U.S. Government is concerned. If WotC publicly acknowledges the Secondary Market with the Reserve List then MTG would be classified as gambling. Those who continue to play these games illegally by making profits from gambling or uses gambling as a business are subject to prosecution.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
too much respect for the secondary market, the health of the game and availability of cards should come far above worry about collectors and speculators taking a hit on you reprinting a card.
WotC has made FAR too many binding promises to collectors - people who don't even actively pay it forward to the community at large - they hoard their collectibles like Smaug in the Hobbit - no one else is allowed their bounty. How is that productive, or of financial benefit to Wizards?
too much respect for the secondary market, the health of the game and availability of cards should come far above worry about collectors and speculators taking a hit on you reprinting a card.
WotC has made FAR too many binding promises to collectors - people who don't even actively pay it forward to the community at large - they hoard their collectibles like Smaug in the Hobbit - no one else is allowed their bounty. How is that productive, or of financial benefit to Wizards?
Say it again for the people in the back.
We all are speculators. If they printed everything to the point many are asking for it would end the singles market entirely. Cards have to have monetary value or booster boxes wouldn't even sell anymore.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
And then people would have to play a game whenever every player is on equal footing and they aren't filtering out potential opponents based on the depth of their disposable income, and we can't have THAT!
Just imagine the fools who thought to design Chess such that even the budget-limited were allowed to use a Queen! Chess would clearly be a better game if Queens were only usable by people who pay to use them, so they can get their wins against people who can't justify paying for the right to start the game with a Queen.
too much respect for the secondary market, the health of the game and availability of cards should come far above worry about collectors and speculators taking a hit on you reprinting a card.
WotC has made FAR too many binding promises to collectors - people who don't even actively pay it forward to the community at large - they hoard their collectibles like Smaug in the Hobbit - no one else is allowed their bounty. How is that productive, or of financial benefit to Wizards?
Say it again for the people in the back.
We all are speculators. If they printed everything to the point many are asking for it would end the singles market entirely. Cards have to have monetary value or booster boxes wouldn't even sell anymore.
Well, that's probably going a bit far, but I don't disagree in theory. I mean, it'd be nice to see Power 9s available for nix, but it'll never ever happen. What I think would be good is seeing more of the reasonable cards on the reserved list released at an appropriate level of rarity, so that newer players at least have a gambling chance of acquiring them, instead of a black marget organ donor's chance of acquiring them.
And then people would have to play a game whenever every player is on equal footing and they aren't filtering out potential opponents based on the depth of their disposable income, and we can't have THAT!
Just imagine the fools who thought to design Chess such that even the budget-limited were allowed to use a Queen! Chess would clearly be a better game if Queens were only usable by people who pay to use them, so they can get their wins against people who can't justify paying for the right to start the game with a Queen.
Now THAT is sarcasm.
I mostly agree though. I'm not interested in Legacy or Vintage, but it is disappointing that some of the staples in those formats that are also applicable to EDH I simply can't get. And not because anyone else can't, but because I can't afford them and others can.
And then people would have to play a game whenever every player is on equal footing and they aren't filtering out potential opponents based on the depth of their disposable income, and we can't have THAT!
Just imagine the fools who thought to design Chess such that even the budget-limited were allowed to use a Queen! Chess would clearly be a better game if Queens were only usable by people who pay to use them, so they can get their wins against people who can't justify paying for the right to start the game with a Queen.
Oh yeah, I think the top end of modern needs serious price management because cards that exceed 50 dollars a piece are not fun for anyone. At the end of the day I think a world of 10-20 dollar cards surrounding a 25-50 dollar one is a better world than one where 5-10 dollar cards surround multiple 55+ dollar ones.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This set doesn't miss the mark, its MSRP does. No more $10 packs. That's the real problem here.
That's essentially been the biggest problem of the last three other Masters sets. They say that $7 just means stores will increase the price, but at the amount they're printing there isn't much of a chance of that happening anymore.
This set doesn't miss the mark, its MSRP does. No more $10 packs. That's the real problem here.
That's essentially been the biggest problem of the last three other Masters sets. They say that $7 just means stores will increase the price, but at the amount they're printing there isn't much of a chance of that happening anymore.
Exactly. My LGS has even lowered the price of Iconic Masters boosters to $8 just to sell them.
To be honest, given how bad the presale prices are on the current masters 25 boxes are I'm almost certain they are going to do a shorter run of this than the last masters set. They basically have no choice if they even had to cut a standard set down a year early due to poor sales. Assuming the game survives this is going to be like the Lorwyn / Elwyn block all over again where if any of the cards actually see play the price is going to go up, except in this case the run was cut short rather than planned to be a shorter run to begin with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
We all are speculators. If they printed everything to the point many are asking for it would end the singles market entirely. Cards have to have monetary value or booster boxes wouldn't even sell anymore.
Pokemon and YuGiOh print and reprint cards to "oblivion" but I have not seen those games diminishing in sales or popularity. Pokemon also provides a digital code for their online card game. Yes, singles markets are rock bottom, but we should be playing card games for fun and entertainment, not engaging in a speculative financial device.
As I stated before, I am beginning to suspect a lot of WotC's sales numbers for boxed product are based on purchases from large MTG retailers like SCG, who sell a large inventory of singles. I don't think regular customer purchases contribute to WotC's sales as much as it might have 10 years ago. So, even if regular customers don't buy boosters or product, as long as customers buy singles from these retailers, these retailers will keep ordering, which increases WotC's sales numbers.
Pokemon and YuGiOh print and reprint cards to "oblivion" but I have not seen those games diminishing in sales or popularity.
Serious question - do those games have a lot of players who have been playing for well over a decade, or are they primarily still popular because they’re turning on a new generation of players at least as fast as they’re losing players by attrition? It would explain the differences in reprint attitude if a substantial portion of the Magic player base is players who have been around for a decade or two and own a lot of older stuff they hope retains value, while the bulk of poke/yugi players are a newer younger generation less likely to have entrenched themselves in a decade of speculative value.
Pokemon and YuGiOh print and reprint cards to "oblivion" but I have not seen those games diminishing in sales or popularity.
Serious question - do those games have a lot of players who have been playing for well over a decade, or are they primarily still popular because they’re turning on a new generation of players at least as fast as they’re losing players by attrition? It would explain the differences in reprint attitude if a substantial portion of the Magic player base is players who have been around for a decade or two and own a lot of older stuff they hope retains value, while the bulk of poke/yugi players are a newer younger generation less likely to have entrenched themselves in a decade of speculative value.
No idea, but I'm certainly not still in Magic after over 20 years because my collection has accumulated in value. If anything, the ridiculous prices on singles makes me frustrated and annoyed when I want to try new decks that I don't have cards for. My first Magic set was Fallen Empires and I've been playing off and on ever since. I stick with Magic because it's a brilliant game, not because of my """investment""" or collection's value. I'd be even happier if my collection was worthless and I could try out a new deck for less than a mortgage payment.
As someone who played Yugioh for 13 years, you don't want to compare MTG to that "game." Yugioh is a horrendous, abysmal, catastrophic trash heap of a game that Konami ran into oblivion. The game had potential, and I miss the old days. But it's been destroyed. With no kitchen table or supported casual formats, it's a dead game to me. And the way it insidiously rotates cards with a banlist and power creep make its reprint policy negligible, because once they've sold the reprint product, they're already on to selling its fools the next best thing.
Trust me, MTG is nothing to whine about relative to Yugioh.
We all are speculators. If they printed everything to the point many are asking for it would end the singles market entirely. Cards have to have monetary value or booster boxes wouldn't even sell anymore.
Pokemon and YuGiOh print and reprint cards to "oblivion" but I have not seen those games diminishing in sales or popularity. Pokemon also provides a digital code for their online card game. Yes, singles markets are rock bottom, but we should be playing card games for fun and entertainment, not engaging in a speculative financial device.
As I stated before, I am beginning to suspect a lot of WotC's sales numbers for boxed product are based on purchases from large MTG retailers like SCG, who sell a large inventory of singles. I don't think regular customer purchases contribute to WotC's sales as much as it might have 10 years ago. So, even if regular customers don't buy boosters or product, as long as customers buy singles from these retailers, these retailers will keep ordering, which increases WotC's sales numbers.
I really wouldn't mind if the company did reprint the higher cost cards in products that actually would drop the price, I'm just sort of wondering if the price of the cards is because of the amount of cards or the product they got reprinted in. For example, if Tarmogoyf holds it's price primarily due to masters costing 240 usd a box and there's actually a lot of copies, what happens when they reprint it in a 30 dollar precon product and do a 50,000 box run?
I know pokemon prints a lot of copies, but I think it really is how they reprint it that keeps the prices down on the tournament cards later on.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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This company is in a seriously bad spot right now with sealed product sales outside of Unstable and maybe challenger deck presales, but the challenger decks are arbitrage friendly for stores, which is extremely rare. Something is happening over there and I hope it carries over to other formats.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
>Wizards
>Learn from mistakes and fan Feedback
Choose One
I agree with all of this - sadly it seems the only way to get EDH staples is supplementals like FtV series, and Commander's Arsenal, which are still an absolute gouging.
WotC has made FAR too many binding promises to collectors - people who don't even actively pay it forward to the community at large - they hoard their collectibles like Smaug in the Hobbit - no one else is allowed their bounty. How is that productive, or of financial benefit to Wizards? The way I see it the reserved list can only last so long, before the weight of newer players clamouring for reprints become backbreaking for the company.
What do they say?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
The Trading Card Game/Collectible Card Game business model would be forced to go out of business because the practice would be considered illegal as far as the U.S. Government is concerned. If WotC publicly acknowledges the Secondary Market with the Reserve List then MTG would be classified as gambling. Those who continue to play these games illegally by making profits from gambling or uses gambling as a business are subject to prosecution.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Say it again for the people in the back.
We all are speculators. If they printed everything to the point many are asking for it would end the singles market entirely. Cards have to have monetary value or booster boxes wouldn't even sell anymore.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Just imagine the fools who thought to design Chess such that even the budget-limited were allowed to use a Queen! Chess would clearly be a better game if Queens were only usable by people who pay to use them, so they can get their wins against people who can't justify paying for the right to start the game with a Queen.
Well, that's probably going a bit far, but I don't disagree in theory. I mean, it'd be nice to see Power 9s available for nix, but it'll never ever happen. What I think would be good is seeing more of the reasonable cards on the reserved list released at an appropriate level of rarity, so that newer players at least have a gambling chance of acquiring them, instead of a black marget organ donor's chance of acquiring them.
Now THAT is sarcasm.
I mostly agree though. I'm not interested in Legacy or Vintage, but it is disappointing that some of the staples in those formats that are also applicable to EDH I simply can't get. And not because anyone else can't, but because I can't afford them and others can.
This is essentially where it's at for me, yes. While I didn't see cards I wanted to see, there's a reasonable display. It's the price I can't justify.
Oh yeah, I think the top end of modern needs serious price management because cards that exceed 50 dollars a piece are not fun for anyone. At the end of the day I think a world of 10-20 dollar cards surrounding a 25-50 dollar one is a better world than one where 5-10 dollar cards surround multiple 55+ dollar ones.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
People would be buying tons of packs if this were 4-7 dollars, rather than 10 dollars a pack.
That's essentially been the biggest problem of the last three other Masters sets. They say that $7 just means stores will increase the price, but at the amount they're printing there isn't much of a chance of that happening anymore.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Pokemon and YuGiOh print and reprint cards to "oblivion" but I have not seen those games diminishing in sales or popularity. Pokemon also provides a digital code for their online card game. Yes, singles markets are rock bottom, but we should be playing card games for fun and entertainment, not engaging in a speculative financial device.
As I stated before, I am beginning to suspect a lot of WotC's sales numbers for boxed product are based on purchases from large MTG retailers like SCG, who sell a large inventory of singles. I don't think regular customer purchases contribute to WotC's sales as much as it might have 10 years ago. So, even if regular customers don't buy boosters or product, as long as customers buy singles from these retailers, these retailers will keep ordering, which increases WotC's sales numbers.
Serious question - do those games have a lot of players who have been playing for well over a decade, or are they primarily still popular because they’re turning on a new generation of players at least as fast as they’re losing players by attrition? It would explain the differences in reprint attitude if a substantial portion of the Magic player base is players who have been around for a decade or two and own a lot of older stuff they hope retains value, while the bulk of poke/yugi players are a newer younger generation less likely to have entrenched themselves in a decade of speculative value.
No idea, but I'm certainly not still in Magic after over 20 years because my collection has accumulated in value. If anything, the ridiculous prices on singles makes me frustrated and annoyed when I want to try new decks that I don't have cards for. My first Magic set was Fallen Empires and I've been playing off and on ever since. I stick with Magic because it's a brilliant game, not because of my """investment""" or collection's value. I'd be even happier if my collection was worthless and I could try out a new deck for less than a mortgage payment.
Trust me, MTG is nothing to whine about relative to Yugioh.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I really wouldn't mind if the company did reprint the higher cost cards in products that actually would drop the price, I'm just sort of wondering if the price of the cards is because of the amount of cards or the product they got reprinted in. For example, if Tarmogoyf holds it's price primarily due to masters costing 240 usd a box and there's actually a lot of copies, what happens when they reprint it in a 30 dollar precon product and do a 50,000 box run?
I know pokemon prints a lot of copies, but I think it really is how they reprint it that keeps the prices down on the tournament cards later on.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!