What it boils down to is that Wizards has to charge less for the Masters Packs. 10$ is too expensive.
True or just not mask sub-masters sets as Iconic and 25th, and legitimately try to do what MM1 and MM3 did.
Agreed, but am I the only one who really enjoyed Eternal Masters?
I thought it was solid.
Ranking the Masters sets (IMO):
1) Modern Masters
2) Modern Masters 2017
3) Eternal Masters
...big gap...
4) Modern Masters 2015
...another big gap...
5) Masters 25
6) Iconic Masters
I didn't think EMA was that bad at all it had the "In b4 moment" with newer Bloodbraid art and cool reprints. The card quality was decent and some of the bulk rares were ok to crack. I generally give these sets a chance, but would never pull the trigger on a box; too expensive for the probability. I usually raid my LGSs the day of opening, usually for making binders and just pull the cards I want a side and then pick them up day one. Buying packs is fun but when MSRP is too high, it makes buying singles a no-brainer.
My list would be:
1st MM
2nd MM3
Third place tie between EMA and the non foils of MM2
Fourth and Fifth can be decided with a death match between ICO and 25th (better value after opening a box? Don't really care)
For some reason a lot of people don't realize the value of the cards here are like grove of the burnwillows. That's why the set is just bad. Also this is truly a loot box implementation of a set.
"But..but.but its just cosmetics and optional. You are not forced to buy them"
-Anoying apoligist
If you are talking about Overwatch, that apologist is right.
Not mentioning Overwatch specifically but it still counts and they are still wrong, but this isn't the place for this discussion.
I'm kinda hoping for Cultivate with the FNM John Avon art. Getting a non-foil of that art would be great for my non foil decks. At this point I'm trying to invigorate the hype that some commons can provide.
Jeez, the outrage over this set so far is unbelievable. Out of the 120 or so cards currently spoiled, 18 of them are currently pre-selling for $10 or more: Mythics
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Imperial Recruiter
Chalice of the Void
Ensnaring Bridge
Vendilion Clique
Phyrexian Obliterator
Animar, Soul of Elements
Rare
Rishadan Port
Fetid Heath
Twilight Mire
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Blood Moon
Pact of Negation
Rugged Prarie
Summoner's Pact
Cascade Bluffs
Flooded Growth
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Based on the presale price (which, I understand, will eventually drop), the mythics and rares will return pack value all by themselves - $6.8 weighted average for the rares and $3.8 weighted average for the mythics (assuming 1/8 mythic slots). Even if you exclude Jace from that calculation, you'd still be looking at $9.40 and that's without the current $4.52 per-pack value from uncommons and $8.50 per-pack value from commons (a number which is probably more egregious since the set is likely to tank many of those values and the lesser value commons haven't been spoiled yet). Yes, you read all that right - for as "awful" as this set is, the average booster pack will currently return $24 in pre-sale value (and to note: those offer prices are mostly below the current card average for the previous versions).
Look, I get it - it sucks to open cards you don't want. But that's Magic. You've been playing this game for how many years and yet you continue to ***** about this card value? No, they didn't pack this set with a hundred of history's most expensive cards. But they're not idiots - they aren't going to put $70 worth of product into a $10 booster pack. They threw in a couple-dozen high value reprints along with some solid uncommons and commons that needed another printing. But all any of you can do is focus on how you aren't getting the exact cards you want, without taking a look at the bigger picture. It's ridiculous and a little pathetic.
You've made two errors in your EV calculation. First, you don't add the average value of the mythics and the average value of the rares together because you don't get a rare and a mythic, you get one or the other.
Second, you have attributed way too much value to the commons and uncommons. Mtggoldfish doesn't factor these into EV for a good reason... you can't reliably sell commons or uncs as singles.
The current EV for a booster pack is around $8.40, not accounting for the foils. You could probably add another $.50 for those.
Sweet. Angelic Page looks awesome with the gears watermark. Hoping there are others...
...
Whoa! Loyal Sentry at common with cool new art! Arcane Denial too! Say what you want about the choice of rare cards, I'm a huge fan of all the new art.
You've made two errors in your EV calculation. First, you don't add the average value of the mythics and the average value of the rares together because you don't get a rare and a mythic, you get one or the other.
I took the average sell value of the mythics ($30.42) and multiplied it by 1/8, then added that to 7/8 of the average rare value (7.76). Those came out to $3.80 and $6.79, respectively. The only way I got that wrong is if my estimate of the ratio of mythics to rares is off.
Second, you have attributed way too much value to the commons and uncommons. Mtggoldfish doesn't factor these into EV for a good reason... you can't reliably sell commons or uncs as singles.
This would be true for most sets, but I'd argue it doesn't hold true for M25; there are a lot of uncommons/commons that will be sellable, as 15/41 spoiled so far are currently selling for more than a dollar.
Regarding the set itself: I won't do the math, but I also wouldn't gamble on boosters packs. I rather just wait and buy singles in case that interests me. Regardless, paying for singles is going to help finance the sales for this set to an extent. I would definitely make a completely different masters set if I owned the company, basically just putting high-value and/or highly-played cards only. I understand they can't do that because they make money by forcing people to gamble on their booster packs, but for such an increased price tag I think at the very least people deserve not to open their boosters to get triskaidekaphobia, akroma's vengeance or bident of thassa.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
They need a format that let's them rotate cards in via the masters sets and have it rotate year to year. Every format has cards that are constructed playable and those that are not, and modern is almost set in stone for many cards being played. Having a format that is standard plus the masters set? Sign me up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't know who's in charge of choosing the art for tokens, but they really need to stop phoning it in. This is the ninth time we've seen that white spirit token art. It gets dumber when you consider how big a gap that is compared to the use of all other white spirit token arts; the most any other white spirit token art has been used is three times.
The soldier, angel, and wolf arts are also overused, but they're nowhere near as bad as the spirit art.
At least the goblin token art is one we haven't seen a bajillion times.
What they dropped the ball on: Akroma, Angel of Fury, seriously at mythic? They are reprinting Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the challenger decks, why not just give us another printing instead of this crap. I understand red has trouble with mythics but there are still better options.
Doomsday, the art is great but not as a mythic please. This was such a good opportunity to give us a Demonic Tutor, Mind Twist, or Imperial Seal reprint, foil at that. I definitely think this is where they really messed up.
Master of the Wild Hunt, great that they finally gave us a reprint of this guy, but he could have been rare.
Phyrexian Obliterator, same as the previous card, a reprint is nice but not at mythic.
Plague Wind, people would’ve been happier with Damnation or Toxic Deluge. I get they don’t work exactly the same, but if you are looking to put a black wrath this is not the best option.
Summary:
They definitely did not strike the tone that people expected with this set, initially it looked like this set was going to be a slam dunk. As spoilers progressed things also got progressively worse. There are a lot of questionable choices at rare. On the positive side, there are actually a decent amount of good rares and they put a lot of value/playability in the uncommon slot as well. Overall I would not say this set was terrible, but it definitely was not amazing. Part of this might be due to the high expectations that we as the community has for this, as well as the description that wizards put out
Good reprints, for value or playability:
Summary:
They definitely did not strike the tone that people expected with this set, initially it looked like this set was going to be a slam dunk. As spoilers progressed things also got progressively worse. There are a lot of questionable choices at rare. On the positive side, there are actually a decent amount of good rares and they put a lot of value/playability in the uncommon slot as well. Overall I would not say this set was terrible, but it definitely was not amazing. Part of this might be due to the high expectations that we as the community has for this, as well as the description that wizards put out
Very much agreed. What killed it for me was that this was supposed to be thé collection of 25 years of awesome cards. For once high expectations were justified.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Affinity
UW Control
Commander
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Dragonlord Ojutai
Gishath, Sun's Avatar
The Ur-Dragon
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My list would be:
1st MM
2nd MM3
Third place tie between EMA and the non foils of MM2
Fourth and Fifth can be decided with a death match between ICO and 25th (better value after opening a box? Don't really care)
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Not mentioning Overwatch specifically but it still counts and they are still wrong, but this isn't the place for this discussion.
Ditto Path to Exile or Myriad Landscape for uncommons.
Non-cute EDIT: we just got a new Unearth art, Street Wraith and Rancor are ok
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
You've made two errors in your EV calculation. First, you don't add the average value of the mythics and the average value of the rares together because you don't get a rare and a mythic, you get one or the other.
Second, you have attributed way too much value to the commons and uncommons. Mtggoldfish doesn't factor these into EV for a good reason... you can't reliably sell commons or uncs as singles.
The current EV for a booster pack is around $8.40, not accounting for the foils. You could probably add another $.50 for those.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
...
Whoa! Loyal Sentry at common with cool new art! Arcane Denial too! Say what you want about the choice of rare cards, I'm a huge fan of all the new art.
Well from what i see it will be just 1 draft for me. Sad
At least we got some Nantuko and Kavu for the hype on Dominaria. But where are the Cephalids?
I took the average sell value of the mythics ($30.42) and multiplied it by 1/8, then added that to 7/8 of the average rare value (7.76). Those came out to $3.80 and $6.79, respectively. The only way I got that wrong is if my estimate of the ratio of mythics to rares is off.
This would be true for most sets, but I'd argue it doesn't hold true for M25; there are a lot of uncommons/commons that will be sellable, as 15/41 spoiled so far are currently selling for more than a dollar.
Thank you for this! I love Google page translator's attempt to identify the English names of the cards.
I care about Utopia Sprawl
Utopia Sprawl at uncommon, and Unearth and Cultivate at common, are nice enough bonusses.
It's a shame they printed Presence of Gond but didn't print Midnight Guard. That would be an awesome combo to fire off in draft.
How starved were they for Born of the Gods options that they printed Retraction Helix, which itself was just a renaming of Banishing Knack?
Retraction Helix + Horseshoe Crab (or any creature with Freed from the Real) could be a fun one in draft.
Regarding the set itself: I won't do the math, but I also wouldn't gamble on boosters packs. I rather just wait and buy singles in case that interests me. Regardless, paying for singles is going to help finance the sales for this set to an extent. I would definitely make a completely different masters set if I owned the company, basically just putting high-value and/or highly-played cards only. I understand they can't do that because they make money by forcing people to gamble on their booster packs, but for such an increased price tag I think at the very least people deserve not to open their boosters to get triskaidekaphobia, akroma's vengeance or bident of thassa.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The uncommons are looking nice to me
Wishing that the Cultivate art would have at least been new.
Arcane Denial though...
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
The soldier, angel, and wolf arts are also overused, but they're nowhere near as bad as the spirit art.
At least the goblin token art is one we haven't seen a bajillion times.
Ancient Stirrings, modern playable
Animar, Soul of Elements, value $29
Blood Moon, modern playable $20
Boros Charm, modern playable
Chalice of the Void, modern playable $60
Cursecatcher, modern playable
Azusa, Lost but Seeking, value $40
Ash Barrens, value $8 common from commander, nice to see another printing
Eladamri’s Call, a nice commander reprint was previously $10
Eidolon of the Great Revel, modern playable
Elvish Piper, commander playable and was previously $8
Ensnaring Bridge, finally a reprint, sucks at mythic but I would rather have this than no reprint at all! Previously $40
Imperial Recruiter, the big reprint of this set
Jace, the Mind Sculptor, after the unbanning it put more value in this set, probably intentional
Lightning Bolt, modern staple, can’t complain if there are more copies
Pact of Negation, modern playable and value
Rishadan Port, so much value, original $90
Simian Spirit Guide, modern playable
Street Wraith, modern playable
Summoner’s Pact, modern playable, $15
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, a much needed reprint for modern
Vendilion Clique, modern playable, $28
REB and BEB, first foil printings for people who want to foil out their legacy decks
Enemy filter lands, value
Cards that I like being reprinted:
Ancient Craving, first foil printing
Arcane Denial, first foil priting
Balduvian Horde, shifted to common for pauper cube
Brainstorm, I'm weird and like that art
Coalition Relic, finally another printing and nice art
Frenzied Goblin, downshifted to common, good for pauper
Hordeling Outburst, downshifted to common, good for pauper
Pillage, new art and downshifted to common
What they dropped the ball on:
Akroma, Angel of Fury, seriously at mythic? They are reprinting Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the challenger decks, why not just give us another printing instead of this crap. I understand red has trouble with mythics but there are still better options.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath, another one of those "seriously at mythic?" cards.
Armageddon, why not Ravages of War?
Doomsday, the art is great but not as a mythic please. This was such a good opportunity to give us a Demonic Tutor, Mind Twist, or Imperial Seal reprint, foil at that. I definitely think this is where they really messed up.
Master of the Wild Hunt, great that they finally gave us a reprint of this guy, but he could have been rare.
Phyrexian Obliterator, same as the previous card, a reprint is nice but not at mythic.
Plague Wind, people would’ve been happier with Damnation or Toxic Deluge. I get they don’t work exactly the same, but if you are looking to put a black wrath this is not the best option.
Triskaidekaphobia, if they were seriously going to give us a card from the SOI block why not Collective Brutality?
Summary:
They definitely did not strike the tone that people expected with this set, initially it looked like this set was going to be a slam dunk. As spoilers progressed things also got progressively worse. There are a lot of questionable choices at rare. On the positive side, there are actually a decent amount of good rares and they put a lot of value/playability in the uncommon slot as well. Overall I would not say this set was terrible, but it definitely was not amazing. Part of this might be due to the high expectations that we as the community has for this, as well as the description that wizards put out
Very much agreed. What killed it for me was that this was supposed to be thé collection of 25 years of awesome cards. For once high expectations were justified.
Affinity
UW Control
Commander
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Dragonlord Ojutai
Gishath, Sun's Avatar
The Ur-Dragon