That would be hilarious. I can't even imagine what they'd have to release to raise the value at this point. I guess at this point, I write off masters and hope for some cool reprints in this year's commander precons.
I just know tomorrow is the final day for me. All of my friends have cancelled their own pre-orders after seeing this and I'm just holding out because of a "maybe the uncommons and commons hold it?" The reality is the common slot is probably not going to do a whole lot and the uncommons have to be downshifted gold to make this work now.
There's a lot of theoretical value that could be in true-to-original-printing uncommons. I mean, Mana Drain, Wasteland, Force of Will, Berserk, Demonic Tutor, Karakas... were all uncommons in their original printings!
I just calculated the EV of a box, as they stand right now. I used MTG Goldfish's method of calculating. I came up with an EV of $311.19. Even taking Jace out of the equation, I get $285. Now I know the prices for cards will go down a bit more, but I think an EV of $200+ might stick.
The value is also heavily inflated by Imperial Recruiter. He will drop to around 25-30 from his current 145.
I used $70, the going rate for him right now. I don't see him dropping much below that but ven if he does drop to around $30, that only drops the EV down to about $295.
What it boils down to is that Wizards has to charge less for the Masters Packs. 10$ is too expensive.
Very much this. To this day I find it puzzling they're ignoring that the sheer fact a draft costs so much is hindering people from choosing to draft the set and it almost feels like they're just ignoring it while promoting the set for Limited itself (I do not buy they are truly ignorant of it, I don't believe a whole company is actually oblivious to the fact itself, they're just not acting on it).
Are they scared that if its cheap and valuable, everyone will draft it instead of Standard sets? Nonsense, if anything MM1 taught us, its that people will outright skip Limited and go straight into opening packs instead. Okay, I can see that people skipping Limited completely is a problem to them as well (as much as us as players don't really care, let's try to at least see that from their perspective), then it's still an easy solution, dilute the card pool instead.
I know somebody will scream at me for saying "dilute the card pool", but remember I'm pitting this towards MM1, before the MSRP increase. We're having issues with both draft and diluted pools because the MSRP got increased since MM2. To this day the MSRP increase was the dumbest thing MM2 ever did (it just suffered even more because it also diluted the pool simultaneously, but I'm pointing out that dilution alone was the solution, not a problem, it only became an additional problem because MSRP increased).
WotC hit the panic button when MM1 over-spiked and instead of designing around the initial $7 MSRP to see if they could dilute the series' EV around that, they increased the price to $10, then tried to dilute around $10 instead, which makes all the chaff rares blatantly more obvious than ever. Sure, Plague Wind will still get a lot of flak for a $7 pack, but no one can deny it would still be a vast improvement compared to what we have now.
If Conspiracy could dilute itself well enough to even hold a regular price pack value while still having some spicy reprints, I really cannot see how the Masters series is floundering harder than Conspiracy, especially if they choose to churn them out at a even faster pace than Conspiracy now. I know some people say "drop the foils and make them Standard/Conspiracy prices", but I sort of enjoyed all packs having a foil and they do need some gimmick to maintain the premium branding they're going for, so I don't actually see a direct copy of Conspiracy for Masters as the correct solution (the direction is correct, just not the exact formula).
In my ideal situation, Masters should only cost 1.5x more than the regular packs (instead of 2.5x like now) and be sold in boxes of 36 like regular packs to improve circulation and they can keep the current dilution we have now and the "all packs have a foil" gimmick so that the product can distinguish itself from the rest. Let's face it, Jank rares are never going to be completely removed from the card pool, but 1.5x is probably around the concession point I would give for the top-end to be above the Standard of Conspiracy sets (while the Jank still floats around) and still be willing to draft the set.
I just calculated the EV of a box, as they stand right now. I used MTG Goldfish's method of calculating. I came up with an EV of $311.19. Even taking Jace out of the equation, I get $285. Now I know the prices for cards will go down a bit more, but I think an EV of $200+ might stick.
The value is also heavily inflated by Imperial Recruiter. He will drop to around 25-30 from his current 145.
I used $70, the going rate for him right now. I don't see him dropping much below that but ven if he does drop to around $30, that only drops the EV down to about $295.
I would go by what happened the last time P3K cards were reprinted: they tanked horribly. Especially because Recruiter only has demand in fringe legacy decks and EDH.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Just got back into magic. This has kind of made me wonder why. I will no longer be preordering any product.
Unless you've got lots of time for trading/selling, you're usually better off buying the singles you need rather than gambling with packs/boxes. Even when I used to go to prereleases and win packs it was barely worth it.
Just got back into magic. This has kind of made me wonder why. I will no longer be preordering any product.
Unless you've got lots of time for trading/selling, you're usually better off buying the singles you need rather than gambling with packs/boxes. Even when I used to go to prereleases and win packs it was barely worth it.
I bought a ramunap red deck singles. Guess how that is doing value wise.
Oh me neither, but it'd be funny if wizards just screwed with everyone's predictions and just vomited decent commons/uncommons from here on out. But that's almost a guarantee to not happen at this point.
Quote from toctheyounger77 »"
url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/778120-masters-25?comment=351 »
That would be hilarious. I can't even imagine what they'd have to release to raise the value at this point. I guess at this point, I write off masters and hope for some cool reprints in this year's commander precons.
There are plenty of good commons and uncommons to choose from.
You're forgetting something here: The Treatment™. If a Common is more than 3$, you gotta upgrade it a bit. After all, if it's that expensive it's because it's heavily played, and that means it must be too strong for Limited, right? After all, turn 1 Ancient Stirrings into a Land or, God forbid, a Chalice of the Void should definitely not happen every game. Same about Chainer's Edict, it carries the value of a pack, so it must also undergo The Treatment™. After all, if casting a sorcery speed Diabolic Edict wasn't broken enough, then tapping out if you ever reach 7 lands to answer 2 of the 3 Hordeling Outburst tokens is outright unacceptable. And let's not speak about reanimating Ihsan's Shade or drafting monoblack to ramp it out with Cabal Coffers, which is more than enough to double down on The Treatment™ and make them mythics, even moreso if you take into account that they average around the value of two packs. Outrageous!
For some reason a lot of people don't realize the value of the cards here are like grove of the burnwillows. That's why the set is just bad. Also this is truly a loot box implementation of a set.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
For some reason a lot of people don't realize the value of the cards here are like grove of the burnwillows. That's why the set is just bad. Also this is truly a loot box implementation of a set.
"But..but.but its just cosmetics and optional. You are not forced to buy them"
-Anoying apoligist
After the standard challenger deck lists, I was actually pretty happy and hopeful that WotC had turned the corner... until this utter garbage fire of a set was spoiled.
Now i'm back to my usual tired scepticism of them as a company.
After the standard challenger deck lists, I was actually pretty happy and hopeful that WotC had turned the corner... until this utter garbage fire of a set was spoiled.
Now i'm back to my usual tired scepticism of them as a company.
To me they look like a failing company. I've got more faith in the force of will company than Wizards of the Coast.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
After the standard challenger deck lists, I was actually pretty happy and hopeful that WotC had turned the corner... until this utter garbage fire of a set was spoiled.
Now i'm back to my usual tired scepticism of them as a company.
To me they look like a failing company. I've got more faith in the force of will company than Wizards of the Coast.
So... I think anyone who says that can't be taken seriously.
Force of Will tanked due to mismanagement. ._.
Jeez, the outrage over this set so far is unbelievable. Out of the 120 or so cards currently spoiled, 18 of them are currently pre-selling for $10 or more: Mythics
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Imperial Recruiter
Chalice of the Void
Ensnaring Bridge
Vendilion Clique
Phyrexian Obliterator
Animar, Soul of Elements
Rare
Rishadan Port
Fetid Heath
Twilight Mire
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Blood Moon
Pact of Negation
Rugged Prarie
Summoner's Pact
Cascade Bluffs
Flooded Growth
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Based on the presale price (which, I understand, will eventually drop), the mythics and rares will return pack value all by themselves - $6.8 weighted average for the rares and $3.8 weighted average for the mythics (assuming 1/8 mythic slots). Even if you exclude Jace from that calculation, you'd still be looking at $9.40 and that's without the current $4.52 per-pack value from uncommons and $8.50 per-pack value from commons (a number which is probably more egregious since the set is likely to tank many of those values and the lesser value commons haven't been spoiled yet). Yes, you read all that right - for as "awful" as this set is, the average booster pack will currently return $24 in pre-sale value (and to note: those offer prices are mostly below the current card average for the previous versions).
Look, I get it - it sucks to open cards you don't want. But that's Magic. You've been playing this game for how many years and yet you continue to ***** about this card value? No, they didn't pack this set with a hundred of history's most expensive cards. But they're not idiots - they aren't going to put $70 worth of product into a $10 booster pack. They threw in a couple-dozen high value reprints along with some solid uncommons and commons that needed another printing. But all any of you can do is focus on how you aren't getting the exact cards you want, without taking a look at the bigger picture. It's ridiculous and a little pathetic.
Jeez, the outrage over this set so far is unbelievable. Out of the 120 or so cards currently spoiled, 18 of them are currently pre-selling for $10 or more: Mythics
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Imperial Recruiter
Chalice of the Void
Ensnaring Bridge
Vendilion Clique
Phyrexian Obliterator
Animar, Soul of Elements
Rare
Rishadan Port
Fetid Heath
Twilight Mire
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Blood Moon
Pact of Negation
Rugged Prarie
Summoner's Pact
Cascade Bluffs
Flooded Growth
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Based on the presale price (which, I understand, will eventually drop), the mythics and rares will return pack value all by themselves - $6.8 weighted average for the rares and $3.8 weighted average for the mythics (assuming 1/8 mythic slots). Even if you exclude Jace from that calculation, you'd still be looking at $9.40 and that's without the current $4.52 per-pack value from uncommons and $8.50 per-pack value from commons (a number which is probably more egregious since the set is likely to tank many of those values and the lesser value commons haven't been spoiled yet). Yes, you read all that right - for as "awful" as this set is, the average booster pack will currently return $24 in pre-sale value (and to note: those offer prices are mostly below the current card average for the previous versions).
Look, I get it - it sucks to open cards you don't want. But that's Magic. You've been playing this game for how many years and yet you continue to ***** about this card value? No, they didn't pack this set with a hundred of history's most expensive cards. But they're not idiots - they aren't going to put $70 worth of product into a $10 booster pack. They threw in a couple-dozen high value reprints along with some solid uncommons and commons that needed another printing. But all any of you can do is focus on how you aren't getting the exact cards you want, without taking a look at the bigger picture. It's ridiculous and a little pathetic.
Fantastic Analysis. Honestly I think the reason why iconic masters was a flop was the commons/uncommon were so abysmal (literally I don't think there was more than 3-4 that see play outside of EDH). M25 seems far superior in that regard.
For some reason a lot of people don't realize the value of the cards here are like grove of the burnwillows. That's why the set is just bad. Also this is truly a loot box implementation of a set.
"But..but.but its just cosmetics and optional. You are not forced to buy them"
-Anoying apoligist
If you are talking about Overwatch, that apologist is right.
Agreed. This set could have been better but the people who are saying this is below Iconic masters is crazy. I would argue it is much better than MM15 or Eternal Masters. We had all of these same arguments for all of the sets except MM17 and the original modern masters.
My big issue is that this isn't a limited print run set and they were trying to indicate that it was special for the 25th anniversary. For me. not bad but it looks like every other masters set. Hopefully the print quality isn't crap and the set symbols look cool.
Wizards does not look like they are failing, does not look incompetent, just looks like they are cranking things out and not trying make the 'best set ever' anymore.
Its not hard to think about
Chainer's Edict (Unc) $10
Cabal Coffers (Unc) $23
Reanimate (Unc) $18
Battle Screech (Unc) $6
Gush (Com) $6
Thought Vessel (Com) $6
Chromatic Star (Com) &6
Lotus Petal (Com) $7.5
Utopia Sprawl (Com) $6
There are plenty of good commons and uncommons to choose from.
There's a lot of theoretical value that could be in true-to-original-printing uncommons. I mean, Mana Drain, Wasteland, Force of Will, Berserk, Demonic Tutor, Karakas... were all uncommons in their original printings!
That certainly is a viable solution. And the only solution if Wizards is gonna keep refusing to print a sufficient number of $30+ cards in the sets.
I used $70, the going rate for him right now. I don't see him dropping much below that but ven if he does drop to around $30, that only drops the EV down to about $295.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Very much this. To this day I find it puzzling they're ignoring that the sheer fact a draft costs so much is hindering people from choosing to draft the set and it almost feels like they're just ignoring it while promoting the set for Limited itself (I do not buy they are truly ignorant of it, I don't believe a whole company is actually oblivious to the fact itself, they're just not acting on it).
Are they scared that if its cheap and valuable, everyone will draft it instead of Standard sets? Nonsense, if anything MM1 taught us, its that people will outright skip Limited and go straight into opening packs instead. Okay, I can see that people skipping Limited completely is a problem to them as well (as much as us as players don't really care, let's try to at least see that from their perspective), then it's still an easy solution, dilute the card pool instead.
I know somebody will scream at me for saying "dilute the card pool", but remember I'm pitting this towards MM1, before the MSRP increase. We're having issues with both draft and diluted pools because the MSRP got increased since MM2. To this day the MSRP increase was the dumbest thing MM2 ever did (it just suffered even more because it also diluted the pool simultaneously, but I'm pointing out that dilution alone was the solution, not a problem, it only became an additional problem because MSRP increased).
WotC hit the panic button when MM1 over-spiked and instead of designing around the initial $7 MSRP to see if they could dilute the series' EV around that, they increased the price to $10, then tried to dilute around $10 instead, which makes all the chaff rares blatantly more obvious than ever. Sure, Plague Wind will still get a lot of flak for a $7 pack, but no one can deny it would still be a vast improvement compared to what we have now.
If Conspiracy could dilute itself well enough to even hold a regular price pack value while still having some spicy reprints, I really cannot see how the Masters series is floundering harder than Conspiracy, especially if they choose to churn them out at a even faster pace than Conspiracy now. I know some people say "drop the foils and make them Standard/Conspiracy prices", but I sort of enjoyed all packs having a foil and they do need some gimmick to maintain the premium branding they're going for, so I don't actually see a direct copy of Conspiracy for Masters as the correct solution (the direction is correct, just not the exact formula).
In my ideal situation, Masters should only cost 1.5x more than the regular packs (instead of 2.5x like now) and be sold in boxes of 36 like regular packs to improve circulation and they can keep the current dilution we have now and the "all packs have a foil" gimmick so that the product can distinguish itself from the rest. Let's face it, Jank rares are never going to be completely removed from the card pool, but 1.5x is probably around the concession point I would give for the top-end to be above the Standard of Conspiracy sets (while the Jank still floats around) and still be willing to draft the set.
I would go by what happened the last time P3K cards were reprinted: they tanked horribly. Especially because Recruiter only has demand in fringe legacy decks and EDH.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
Unless you've got lots of time for trading/selling, you're usually better off buying the singles you need rather than gambling with packs/boxes. Even when I used to go to prereleases and win packs it was barely worth it.
I bought a ramunap red deck singles. Guess how that is doing value wise.
Occam's Razor suggests that it won't happen.
You're forgetting something here: The Treatment™. If a Common is more than 3$, you gotta upgrade it a bit. After all, if it's that expensive it's because it's heavily played, and that means it must be too strong for Limited, right? After all, turn 1 Ancient Stirrings into a Land or, God forbid, a Chalice of the Void should definitely not happen every game. Same about Chainer's Edict, it carries the value of a pack, so it must also undergo The Treatment™. After all, if casting a sorcery speed Diabolic Edict wasn't broken enough, then tapping out if you ever reach 7 lands to answer 2 of the 3 Hordeling Outburst tokens is outright unacceptable. And let's not speak about reanimating Ihsan's Shade or drafting monoblack to ramp it out with Cabal Coffers, which is more than enough to double down on The Treatment™ and make them mythics, even moreso if you take into account that they average around the value of two packs. Outrageous!
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
The playability of this in modern is dead
And demand is all gone
This will most likely loose like 60%ish or more of its price
Basicly it's price was ridiculous for the same reasons as imperial recruiter
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
"But..but.but its just cosmetics and optional. You are not forced to buy them"
-Anoying apoligist
Agreed, but am I the only one who really enjoyed Eternal Masters?
My 720 Peasant Cube
Now i'm back to my usual tired scepticism of them as a company.
To me they look like a failing company. I've got more faith in the force of will company than Wizards of the Coast.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So... I think anyone who says that can't be taken seriously.
Force of Will tanked due to mismanagement. ._.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I thought it was solid.
Ranking the Masters sets (IMO):
1) Modern Masters
2) Modern Masters 2017
3) Eternal Masters
...big gap...
4) Modern Masters 2015
...another big gap...
5) Masters 25
6) Iconic Masters
My 720 Peasant Cube
Mythics
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Imperial Recruiter
Chalice of the Void
Ensnaring Bridge
Vendilion Clique
Phyrexian Obliterator
Animar, Soul of Elements
Rare
Rishadan Port
Fetid Heath
Twilight Mire
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Blood Moon
Pact of Negation
Rugged Prarie
Summoner's Pact
Cascade Bluffs
Flooded Growth
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Based on the presale price (which, I understand, will eventually drop), the mythics and rares will return pack value all by themselves - $6.8 weighted average for the rares and $3.8 weighted average for the mythics (assuming 1/8 mythic slots). Even if you exclude Jace from that calculation, you'd still be looking at $9.40 and that's without the current $4.52 per-pack value from uncommons and $8.50 per-pack value from commons (a number which is probably more egregious since the set is likely to tank many of those values and the lesser value commons haven't been spoiled yet). Yes, you read all that right - for as "awful" as this set is, the average booster pack will currently return $24 in pre-sale value (and to note: those offer prices are mostly below the current card average for the previous versions).
Look, I get it - it sucks to open cards you don't want. But that's Magic. You've been playing this game for how many years and yet you continue to ***** about this card value? No, they didn't pack this set with a hundred of history's most expensive cards. But they're not idiots - they aren't going to put $70 worth of product into a $10 booster pack. They threw in a couple-dozen high value reprints along with some solid uncommons and commons that needed another printing. But all any of you can do is focus on how you aren't getting the exact cards you want, without taking a look at the bigger picture. It's ridiculous and a little pathetic.
Fantastic Analysis. Honestly I think the reason why iconic masters was a flop was the commons/uncommon were so abysmal (literally I don't think there was more than 3-4 that see play outside of EDH). M25 seems far superior in that regard.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
If you are talking about Overwatch, that apologist is right.
Spirits
My big issue is that this isn't a limited print run set and they were trying to indicate that it was special for the 25th anniversary. For me. not bad but it looks like every other masters set. Hopefully the print quality isn't crap and the set symbols look cool.
Wizards does not look like they are failing, does not look incompetent, just looks like they are cranking things out and not trying make the 'best set ever' anymore.