I didn't think marvel was so bad, especially once Eldrazi rotate out. It essentially accelerate you to X mana, where X is the higher casting cost you can wheel into. Hitting Ulamog was unfair as it accelerated you too much. Hitting a big chandra is merely accelerating you to 6 mana, but you had to built your deck and accumulate energy just for that.
I really wish they'd just rotate out Zendikar instead, as was planned when the sets were designed and tested.
Ah well, I own zero marvel and don't play standard, so I don't care much anyway.
As pointed out, I would like allowing answers in the format rather than bans... I mean, Wizards, could you please emergency allow counterspell in modern? kthxbye.
Also...
CONFIRMED:pithing needle is not in Hour of Devastation nor Ixalan!
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
I wouldn't mind seeing a restricted list for the formats as well. It would let people play the powerful cards at one copy only. They could try it with legacy and modern to start(I know vintage has it already).
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Standard
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Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
I didn't think marvel was so bad, especially once Eldrazi rotate out. It essentially accelerate you to X mana, where X is the higher casting cost you can wheel into. Hitting Ulamog was unfair as it accelerated you too much. Hitting a big chandra is merely accelerating you to 6 mana, but you had to built your deck and accumulate energy just for that.
I really wish they'd just rotate out Zendikar instead, as was planned when the sets were designed and tested.
So your suggestion is that they have kept Marvel, but simply... not printed any high-cost high-impact cards until KLD rotates out of standard?
We've only seen 3 cards from HOU and we've already seen one contender (Bolas), and we don't even know if that's the biggest baddest card in HOU. Then there'd be Ixalan, Ixalan2, SpringBigSet, and SummerCoreSet entering standard before cards from KLD rotate. And NONE of them would be able to have big-cost high-impact cards that would be problematic if they were able to be accelerated-cast on T4.
Yeah, that seems like a plausible limitation on design.
This quote is of high interest for the foreseeable future:
To that end, we considered several weird or off-the-wall options. We discussed something we called "pair banning," where two cards could not be played in the same deck but could be played separately, a tactic other TCGs have employed. We looked at making other cards legal for Standard that otherwise wouldn't be, like Pithing Needle and Duress. We looked at restricting and even functional errata. Ultimately, these created more problems than they solved for this particular issue, and while we might keep exploring newer options in the future, for now we're sticking with our tried-and-true solution, even though we, like you, would rather it not come to this again.
It shows they DO want to think outside of the box, should be interesting to see if it actually gets employed.
So... Sensei's Divining Top is legal but cannot be played with Miracles, Counterbalance or Delver... I think that would be a nightmare, players are lucky to know what is legal and what is not legal in a format... worrying that they cannot use x because they are playing y is too much research on their end.
On the other hand, that would be a strange casual format...
We looked at restricting and even functional errata.
This shows how messed up R&D is right now. To even consider these "barbaric" solutions...
The idea of "functional errata" for power level reasons should make every MTG player shudder. Folks, that is serious, Syrian-grade chemical weapons right there.
This quote is of high interest for the foreseeable future:
To that end, we considered several weird or off-the-wall options. We discussed something we called "pair banning," where two cards could not be played in the same deck but could be played separately, a tactic other TCGs have employed. We looked at making other cards legal for Standard that otherwise wouldn't be, like Pithing Needle and Duress. We looked at restricting and even functional errata. Ultimately, these created more problems than they solved for this particular issue, and while we might keep exploring newer options in the future, for now we're sticking with our tried-and-true solution, even though we, like you, would rather it not come to this again.
It shows they DO want to think outside of the box, should be interesting to see if it actually gets employed.
So... Sensei's Divining Top is legal but cannot be played with Miracles, Counterbalance or Delver... I think that would be a nightmare, players are lucky to know what is legal and what is not legal in a format... worrying that they cannot use x because they are playing y is too much research on their end.
On the other hand, that would be a strange casual format...
It might be more plausible with very obvious two-card-combos where either card on it's own is perfectly fair with all the other cards around it. Like, say, a certain Felidar Guardian. If Saheeli Rai wasn't allowed to be played with the kitty in one deck, you can bet that Felidar Guardian would see some play left and right in other brews without breaking things.
In the case of Aetherworks-Ulamog though, Aetherworks players would simply move on to the next biggest thing, whether that's Kozilek or Nicol Bolas.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Printing cards vs cards has never had a positive ending. It would have been useful, sure, but it wouldn't have solved any problem; if it were like that, why banning Splinter Twin when so many 1-on-1 answers to it have been printed since its appearance?
I'm a bit sad for this decision, because I would have preferred a ban for the combo Marvel + Ulamog, which the article explicitely says they considered in the process. Marvel is a fun card if nothing breaks it, so I highly doubt it will be broken after BFZ rotates out. Why not just leave it in Standard and avoid toxic combos? A Nicol Bolas, God Pharaoh on turn 4 isn't unreasonable after all. Not more than Gideon, Ally of Zendikar at least...
Not sure if serious. You think Nicol Bolas dealing you 7, exiling two cards out of your hand (going up in loyalty), or playing a free card from YOUR deck (ALSO going up in loyalty) on turn 4 is fair? Really?
Also these cards wouldn't be a problem if they printed better answers. Why did Pithing Needle or Duress ever leave the format anyway? Where is shatter, Disenchant or Naturalize?
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Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
Banning Marvel makes more sense than Ulamog. If they ban Ulamog and leave Marvel, then they have to worry about all future cards they print also being busted with Marvel until it rotates. Makes me sad that I never got to try out that awesome Marvel/Paradox Engine deck though.
I don't understand why they can't just print Pithing Needle. The card's not tied to any specific flavor; it could have taken the place of any craprare (Hazoret's Favor or something) in AKH.
They are not psychic and did not know that they should print pithing needle, they work over a year in advance. If they were actually thinking about saying "hey, even though we haven't printed pithing needle in a while, you can play it if you have one", then its clearly not in the next set.
We looked at restricting and even functional errata.
This shows how messed up R&D is right now. To even consider these "barbaric" solutions...
The idea of "functional errata" for power level reasons should make every MTG player shudder. Folks, that is serious, Syrian-grade chemical weapons right there.
I agree it is bad, but I'd like to hear your explanation as to why. I've been playing a lot of shadowverse recently and they do functional erratas when a card proves to be too powerful. It allows players to continue to use the cards they like and the effects they bring, just in a more fair version.
Clearly that is a digital only product where they don't actually print cards so it is much easier for them to just fix the card. In magic there would be all kinds of issues of players not knowing the card was changed.
Also shadowverse posts complete metagame data to justify the changes instead of being ridiculously cryptic like Wizards. I believe that also goes a long way toward not upsetting players with changes.
The best part is they gave us the Pithing Needle Masterpiece. But maybe in MaRo's words, they don't want to take the shine off new cards (with reprints)... Oh yea... One year later they're reintroducing Core Sets.
Karma is a *****. Just that players take the brunt of the heat.
It sucks that we now have five banned cards, but it was the right call. I don't think they ever imagined how easy it'd be to accumulate a ton of energy in the format to make the Marvel work so well. Especially because energy is, as of right now, the only resource in the game that is impossible for an opponent to deplete.
I do like that they're entertaining the idea of pair-bannings, which I like, although I'm not as big on the idea of legalizing non-standard cards. I like that they're self-aware that the Standard environment got out of control, and they're making efforts not just to fix things, but prevent it from happening in the future.
Not surprising in the least. This was the far smarter ban than Ulamog. With Marvel gone they don't have to worry about printing anything for the next year for it, although they can still mess up regardless of it.
The good thing is that the deck, when it comes to energy, still exists, so at the very least no one is losing too much with this ban.
10, actually, by the time they got around to banning MOM. And they would have likely banned Bargain at the time, had there been more major events over the summer. Not to mention the 'Power level Errata' on the Free stuff.
I really like the idea MaRo mentioned about pair bannings in Standard. I would love to put Felidar Guardian in a Standard flicker deck, but with its outright banning that deck is missing one very key component. The next best thing is Vizier of Deferment and all the awkward UW instants from Innistrad block or Displacer, which is much tougher.
I don't understand why they can't just print Pithing Needle. The card's not tied to any specific flavor; it could have taken the place of any craprare (Hazoret's Favor or something) in AKH.
They are not psychic and did not know that they should print pithing needle, they work over a year in advance. If they were actually thinking about saying "hey, even though we haven't printed pithing needle in a while, you can play it if you have one", then its clearly not in the next set.
It doesn't take a lot of foresight to reprint Pithing Needle. It would have answered the vast majority of the problematic cards that have been in standard over the last year.
I don't understand why they can't just print Pithing Needle. The card's not tied to any specific flavor; it could have taken the place of any craprare (Hazoret's Favor or something) in AKH.
They are not psychic and did not know that they should print pithing needle, they work over a year in advance. If they were actually thinking about saying "hey, even though we haven't printed pithing needle in a while, you can play it if you have one", then its clearly not in the next set.
It doesn't take a lot of foresight to reprint Pithing Needle. It would have answered the vast majority of the problematic cards that have been in standard over the last year.
Absolutely. Definitely could've reprinted Pithing Needle or Duress, pretty much anywhere.
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Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Same boat the marvel works would have Ben the only thing that caused nicol bolas to be exspensive and now it's gone
Plus I don't have the marvel so it will be cheaper for me to get for edh.
I really wish they'd just rotate out Zendikar instead, as was planned when the sets were designed and tested.
Ah well, I own zero marvel and don't play standard, so I don't care much anyway.
5 cards banned in Standard is also unprecedented.
People actually doing work in R&D is unprecedented.
Hope this wakes you up, Wizards. It can't get worse in the future right?
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Commander
U Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
RG Zilortha, Strength Incarnate
WU Yorion, Sky Nomad
Also...
CONFIRMED: pithing needle is not in Hour of Devastation nor Ixalan!
there were 7 banned during combo winter. in recent memory i agree with you.
http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Timeline_of_DCI_bans_and_restrictions
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
So your suggestion is that they have kept Marvel, but simply... not printed any high-cost high-impact cards until KLD rotates out of standard?
We've only seen 3 cards from HOU and we've already seen one contender (Bolas), and we don't even know if that's the biggest baddest card in HOU. Then there'd be Ixalan, Ixalan2, SpringBigSet, and SummerCoreSet entering standard before cards from KLD rotate. And NONE of them would be able to have big-cost high-impact cards that would be problematic if they were able to be accelerated-cast on T4.
Yeah, that seems like a plausible limitation on design.
So... Sensei's Divining Top is legal but cannot be played with Miracles, Counterbalance or Delver... I think that would be a nightmare, players are lucky to know what is legal and what is not legal in a format... worrying that they cannot use x because they are playing y is too much research on their end.
On the other hand, that would be a strange casual format...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
The idea of "functional errata" for power level reasons should make every MTG player shudder. Folks, that is serious, Syrian-grade chemical weapons right there.
It might be more plausible with very obvious two-card-combos where either card on it's own is perfectly fair with all the other cards around it. Like, say, a certain Felidar Guardian. If Saheeli Rai wasn't allowed to be played with the kitty in one deck, you can bet that Felidar Guardian would see some play left and right in other brews without breaking things.
In the case of Aetherworks-Ulamog though, Aetherworks players would simply move on to the next biggest thing, whether that's Kozilek or Nicol Bolas.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Not sure if serious. You think Nicol Bolas dealing you 7, exiling two cards out of your hand (going up in loyalty), or playing a free card from YOUR deck (ALSO going up in loyalty) on turn 4 is fair? Really?
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
Trades
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They are not psychic and did not know that they should print pithing needle, they work over a year in advance. If they were actually thinking about saying "hey, even though we haven't printed pithing needle in a while, you can play it if you have one", then its clearly not in the next set.
I agree it is bad, but I'd like to hear your explanation as to why. I've been playing a lot of shadowverse recently and they do functional erratas when a card proves to be too powerful. It allows players to continue to use the cards they like and the effects they bring, just in a more fair version.
Clearly that is a digital only product where they don't actually print cards so it is much easier for them to just fix the card. In magic there would be all kinds of issues of players not knowing the card was changed.
Also shadowverse posts complete metagame data to justify the changes instead of being ridiculously cryptic like Wizards. I believe that also goes a long way toward not upsetting players with changes.
Karma is a *****. Just that players take the brunt of the heat.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I do like that they're entertaining the idea of pair-bannings, which I like, although I'm not as big on the idea of legalizing non-standard cards. I like that they're self-aware that the Standard environment got out of control, and they're making efforts not just to fix things, but prevent it from happening in the future.
The good thing is that the deck, when it comes to energy, still exists, so at the very least no one is losing too much with this ban.
10, actually, by the time they got around to banning MOM. And they would have likely banned Bargain at the time, had there been more major events over the summer. Not to mention the 'Power level Errata' on the Free stuff.
Modern: Dominium Eminens
Legacy: UB Tezz (Check out My Primer at TheSource)
Vinitage: Oath
I used to judge alot.
It doesn't take a lot of foresight to reprint Pithing Needle. It would have answered the vast majority of the problematic cards that have been in standard over the last year.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Absolutely. Definitely could've reprinted Pithing Needle or Duress, pretty much anywhere.