What they should do is just print the powerful cards for each colour. Let blue have counterspell, let red have lighting bolt, White should have swords and Wrath of God among other things. Let black have thoughtsieze and innocent blood back. When each colour has it's best tools the game can be quite fun and balanced. The problem is they are too scared to print anything remotely powerful anymore. I haven't touched standard or new sets since RTR as a result.
When they think llanowar elves is too strong for standard you know something is very wrong.
As much as I agree with you, I do feel limits may be needed where would you draw the line?
Should artifact be allowed Solring, Black lotus, Mox's, Memory Jar and Skullclamp?
Should Blue welcome home Time walk and Ansestral Recall?
Should black allow Necropotence Demonic tutor, Vampire tutor and Yagmoths Will?
Should Green be allowed Allurn?
Should White be allowed Balance, Humility?
Should Red be allowed wheel of fortune?
Should lands be allowed: Torlian Academy, Mishra's workshop, bizarre of Baghdad, Library of Alexandria?
you draw the line with common sense and dont include banned/restricted cards
What they should do is just print the powerful cards for each colour. Let blue have counterspell, let red have lighting bolt, White should have swords and Wrath of God among other things. Let black have thoughtsieze and innocent blood back. When each colour has it's best tools the game can be quite fun and balanced. The problem is they are too scared to print anything remotely powerful anymore. I haven't touched standard or new sets since RTR as a result.
When they think llanowar elves is too strong for standard you know something is very wrong.
As much as I agree with you, I do feel limits may be needed where would you draw the line?
Should artifact be allowed Solring, Black lotus, Mox's, Memory Jar and Skullclamp?
Should Blue welcome home Time walk, mana drain and Ansestral Recall?
Should black allow Necropotence Demonic tutor, Vampire tutor and Yagmoths Will?
Should Green be allowed Allurn?
Should White be allowed Balance, Humility?
Should Red be allowed wheel of fortune?
Should lands be allowed: Torlian Academy, Mishra's workshop, bizarre of Baghdad, Library of Alexandria?
Should we legalize unsets? I mean they have some powerful lands City of !!!, mox lotus, and Richard Garfield PHD would be huge hits,
Edit Yes I am stretching for Green/red they haven't had as many powerful things printed for them that I would consider past that line.....
I'd say anything that's obviously broken isn't needed. Also most of those are on the reserve list anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
What they should do is just print the powerful cards for each colour. Let blue have counterspell, let red have lighting bolt, White should have swords and Wrath of God among other things. Let black have thoughtsieze and innocent blood back. When each colour has it's best tools the game can be quite fun and balanced. The problem is they are too scared to print anything remotely powerful anymore. I haven't touched standard or new sets since RTR as a result.
When they think llanowar elves is too strong for standard you know something is very wrong.
As much as I agree with you, I do feel limits may be needed where would you draw the line?
Should artifact be allowed Solring, Black lotus, Mox's, Memory Jar and Skullclamp?
Should Blue welcome home Time walk and Ansestral Recall?
Should black allow Necropotence Demonic tutor, Vampire tutor and Yagmoths Will?
Should Green be allowed Allurn?
Should White be allowed Balance, Humility?
Should Red be allowed wheel of fortune?
Should lands be allowed: Torlian Academy, Mishra's workshop, bizarre of Baghdad, Library of Alexandria?
you draw the line with common sense and dont include banned/restricted cards
Common sense according to whom? Example Arcbound Ravager was banned in Standard, but legal in modern/legacy, Jace the mindsculpter was banned in standard and modern but never banned in legacy or vintage, Skulclamp was banned in standard, modern and Legacy but never in vintage. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage but legal in Legacy (and was not banned during its run in T2) The same can be said of Trinsphear Its not so simple as that. Note I am not disagreeing with you, I think standard has gone way too far weak (my god a mana dork too powerful is something else.....) just that some guild lines need to be put in place before we go printing willy nilly.
What they should do is just print the powerful cards for each colour. Let blue have counterspell, let red have lighting bolt, White should have swords and Wrath of God among other things. Let black have thoughtsieze and innocent blood back. When each colour has it's best tools the game can be quite fun and balanced. The problem is they are too scared to print anything remotely powerful anymore. I haven't touched standard or new sets since RTR as a result.
When they think llanowar elves is too strong for standard you know something is very wrong.
As much as I agree with you, I do feel limits may be needed where would you draw the line?
Should artifact be allowed Solring, Black lotus, Mox's, Memory Jar and Skullclamp?
Should Blue welcome home Time walk and Ansestral Recall?
Should black allow Necropotence Demonic tutor, Vampire tutor and Yagmoths Will?
Should Green be allowed Allurn?
Should White be allowed Balance, Humility?
Should Red be allowed wheel of fortune?
Should lands be allowed: Torlian Academy, Mishra's workshop, bizarre of Baghdad, Library of Alexandria?
you draw the line with common sense and dont include banned/restricted cards
Common sense according to whom? Example Arcbound Ravager was banned in Standard, but legal in modern/legacy, Jace the mindsculpter was banned in standard and modern but never banned in legacy or vintage, Skulclamp was banned in standard, modern and Legacy but never in vintage. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage but legal in Legacy (and was not banned during its run in T2) The same can be said of Trinsphear Its not so simple as that. Note I am not disagreeing with you, I think standard has gone way too far weak (my god a mana dork too powerful is something else.....) just that some guild lines need to be put in place before we go printing willy nilly.
When you need to exaggerate a counterpoint so hard, it's because your position is indefensible.
If they want Standard to be anything but the two decks that can shove in the best and most mythics in. They will reprint/functional reprint Mana Leak, Doom Blade, Searing Spear, Elvish Mystic, a 4cmc white Wrath and Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus so that they're in Standard all the time. Otherwise it's clear they don't want the game to be open and balanced, they want to force sales with a single card each set and sell a lottery instead of a game.
"emergency" bans are bad for the game. Also, Maro is awful so I wouldnt look to him to be the "beacon" of righteousness when it comes to what the game needs, wants, etc
At the cost of sounding nitpicky, emergency bans are good for the game. It's their necessity that is bad.
But I agree: it's a shame they need to happen currently; and MaRo has no idea what he is doing.
At the cost of sounding nitpicky, emergency bans are good for the game. It's their necessity that is bad.
the latter is what I meant. When people spend money to build a deck and you spit on their hard earned dollars, theyre less likely to spend more and more likely to just walk away completely. No one wants to build a deck on Monday and wonder if it will still be legal on Friday
It is not the department that is the issue. It is the philosophy.
Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, cheap removal and everything else the new players hate have been removed, leaving an anodyne mess of a game and a standard solved in seconds that can't shift once the best two or three creature/planeswalker decks have been esablished per set. Meanwhile those easily irritated new players and more casuals have just sodded off to the commander tables to feed the monster Wizards inadvertently legitimised. You don't need a new department to fix this, you need a new philosophy.
Maro has a philosophy and maxim for many things, he write about them all the time in his columns. Unfortunately his philosophy is "Gatewatch: the gathering" and "zoos are better than spells", both of which are unchallenged axioms that the current team cling to for dear life. Only when the fear of "unfun" changes will things get better.
Totally agree it is a decade of this philoshophy that has gotten us here today unfortunately. Just look at which cards actually hold value. If the game were healthier the price disparity would be far less.
First, cheap land destruction needs to go away and never come back. The single element that makes a game of Magic into a very un-fun non-game is mana screw, and somehow people argue that printing cheap land destruction is healthy for the game? If you want to play cards by yourself so badly, just play solitaire.
Hand destruction is doing just fine now. Instead of just reprinting Duress and Distress ad nauseum, they're creating new hand disruption cards like Lay Bare the Heart, which is actually very powerful since the cards that it can't hit can easily be killed with removal -- especially since they've scaled back on Hexproof so much thanks to players whining about creatures getting too strong.
And you're going to actually complain about taxes when they just reprinted Aven Mindcensor in a Standard legal set? Or printed Gideon's Intervention, the new Thalia, or Reduce // Rubble? If you think that taxes should be so strong that they deny the opponent the ability to do anything, you should, again, just be playing solitaire.
Same thing with counterspells and cheap removal. Disallow is arguably one of the strongest counters ever printed. They also just reprinted Essence Scatter. Commit // Memory is incredibly versatile on the front in being able to "counter" spells (even uncounterable ones), or remove any troublesome permanents except lands, and being an expensive Timetwister on the back end. Fatal Push may be the best cheap removal ever printed (aside, perhaps, from Swords to Plowshares).
And if you aren't playing with planeswalkers in your deck, you are missing out on a lot of fun. They are such a great addition to the game (and this is coming from someone who bought a pack of Revised as his first pack of Magic when the Revised box was sitting next to a box of Legends).
If it wasn't $20 creatures, it'd be $20 counterspells and card draw.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal are things the majority of players hate. And claiming they've been removed when we have stuff like Ceremonious Rejection, Fatal Push, and Dissenter's Deliverance is just asinine.
FYI, the creatures nowadays aren't as pushed as the time of Baneslayer and the Titan 5. And you know what card single-handedly lead to that era of power creep? Lightning Bolt. When the hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal get better, everything else has to get better, or those things take over the game and then the problem is simply rotated 180°. You complain about people who "only" want the game to be about creatures and planeswalkers, yet what I see here is that you people only want the game to be about instants and sorceries, which is equally bad. It's a mice vs. mousetraps argument.
NEWS FLASH: Pushed, overly-dominant cards aren't fun, no matter what they do. The difference is that a Baneslayer Angel can still be Doom Bladed. A Heart of Kiran can be Shattered. Permanents still have removal to keep them in check. What keeps pushed counterspells in check? Uncounterable spells, and, oh yeah, counterspells.
Honestly, this kind of hypocrite mentality makes me not take a lot of criticism around here seriously, because in the end, it's the same complaints the "other team" would be spewing, only in reverse.
Agreed 100%. Bolt should never be in Standard again, nor should Counterspell. They would be format warping cards that would scare all but a select group of players away from the game.
Wizards is clearly trying to appease the majority of players with the recent changes they've made, and I can't tell if people are just ignoring this or are just looking for a reason to complain.
Last night I played RB reanimator vs Stax in Legacy.
The RB reanimator made Griselbrand and Chancellors, and had turn 0 effects.
The Stax deck made Smokesstacks and Trinispheres and eventually the RB reanimator had zero permanents in the decider.
It was a fantastic match. I guess that is the difference between Legacy players and Standard players. Legacy players accept that in order for someone to have fun that might mean t1 Grisselbrand draw, discard for zero mana spank, discard, discard spank, spank. That also might mean t0 Leyine, T1 Trinisphere, Tabernacle, kill land, kill land. Standard players, who tend to be younger, will think neither is fair. Legacy players accept it as part of a variety of strategies- alongside Storm et al. Each to their own, but I tell you one thing- Legacy players and events are always played in the best humour and spirit.
One thing is for certain though to anybody with experience in the game, these last couple of posts contain huge numbers of unbelievably bad cards being cited to counter arguments about spell quality. Disallow is not one of the strongest counters ever printed- it is actually garbage compared to, say, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Mana Leak,Daze and need I go on? Lay Bare is garbage. You want discard- they need to cost 1 or 0 to stand comparison. I mean Hymn cost two, sure, but it gets two at random.
The thing is if one person has powerful taxes, and the other has cheap spells, they balance out, NEITHER plays solitaire, and landkill becomes less powerful too.
I hear ya
The thing about legscy and vintage is that collection wise it is done over the years.
Standard decks tend to be built like instant noodles. You build everything from a more limited pool, there is nothing wrong with that. Its fun and you get to play with snazzy new cards. It is very accessible. For legacy tho, decks or rather the collection is built over time, so its less stressful on the pocket, it also rewards the casual brewer looking to break less regarded cards. This creates a perception for initial entry players that legacy is expensive. It is expensive if you must have the deck quickly, it is less so if you are just dwardling and building your collection.
What is my point? What i am tryubg to say is that current standard players should be able to build on their collection, so that over time they can draw on their cardpool to build decks for a more "eternal" format, be it modern, legacy or vintage.
This brings me to two more points. 1) building a collection, ... to what??? 2) balance and design space.
1) by this i mean to what end are we building our collection to? Going completely bfz (sans dear gideon) will yield a block cube. Or the sets could contain modern potential nuggets or even legacy or vintage nuggets. Its really up to wotc/hasbro to decide how they want to develope the type and depth of longevity they want to build with the game.and it starts with standard. On this front i think they are doing oki with creatures and planeswalkers but stack based effects and in general other playstyles need some love. This is to help players build their collection, so that their collection has at the very least, play value if not monetory value.
2) balance and design space. As you have alluded, balance does not mean gameplay and power level has to be bland or weak. Even limited draft can be powerful yet balanced. However the thing is by printibg best of breed (i.e. powerful) of cards they reduce design space which mean they have to think harder to design laterally. Which is more difficult. Yet they want to sell more sets, so it creates pressure to keep printing stuff people will buy. Their current solution is to print weak cards and variate the strength to spread design over more sets. This is why they prefer balance through weakness. It is better for sales which is not terrible, they have been doing it from day one. Printing a few gems in a load of chaff. The problem is when set is pure chaff, is it something players can continue to justify to buy? It is effectively killing the longevity of the game if players cannot find future use for their cards. I don't think we are there yet but all this talk of nerfing for balance is disconcerting.
3) oh yay i have a third point. Again i think you alluded to it. And that is attitudes and preferred gameplay style. Some people like powerful game plays some like midrangy some like fast paced games, some like prison some like control some like permission. There are currently 3 eternal formats for wotc to shape. I feel they present opportunities for differing preferences. There might even be one for power level akin to standard (perhaps with ample bannings so that it does not become modern 2.0 and remain at intended power. In a similar way they could reprint counterspell in standard, let it run in modern and ban it if its really bad or not the kind of modern they want)
At the cost of sounding nitpicky, emergency bans are good for the game. It's their necessity that is bad.
the latter is what I meant. When people spend money to build a deck and you spit on their hard earned dollars, theyre less likely to spend more and more likely to just walk away completely. No one wants to build a deck on Monday and wonder if it will still be legal on Friday
This is why they should have banned cat pre-set release. They had the chance! The day after they spoiled cat a pro threw up an article on Channel Fireball pointing out it was broken and how they couldn't believe it. Maro and crew had their <whathuh?> moment and then DECIDED to highlight the combo on WotC's webpage and basically brag about the abomination to come. THAT is how bad Maro and anyone tasked with keeping him in check are. Pre-ban and no one loses money. You still open kitty, play limited with it, and spoil other formats with it, instead we got emergency ban because we have no clue what we're doing.
This new team of 'players' become testers is actually a good idea... however, I feel bad for them. Who do you think Maro is going to blame when he overrules them, prints broken creatures and trick cards (because he doesn't want to print anything else good right?) and then says, 'whelp... too bad the test crew didn't catch that, they're a work in progress'. Feels like Maro buying time as he sinks the ship.
I can't believe people are still trying to rail against 'answers aren't good enough' when even Maro has admitted they nerfed them on purpose.
Playing bad cards to beat good cards is always a losing proposition. Which is exactly what artifact specific hate is. And oh wait... there is no real planeswalker hate. (Plz don't point out ruinous waste of time.)
Nothing on the list is broken by any means and would greatly improve standard.
I like the list, a lot of those sorts of cards should be in Standard in some form. Ghostly Prison in draft might be hard to get past them. Perhaps it could go in one of the "intro" decks rather than the set itself. The thing is they could use these cards as a base for stuff that should be around- subtly varying them for freshness- one Standard Molten Rain, one Standard Stone Rain, next Standard nothing, one set BOP, one set Mystic Elves, one set Elves of Deep Shadow, next set a 2cc dork. The same with 4 mana sweepers- they could even bring in a Day of Judgement in a set with actually decent regeneration, then Supreme Verdict or a new one with a 2 colour element, then back to something conditional, then 5 or 6cc or none at all. They don't have to always have these effects, just more than "never again". Prime Time might be a bit OTT- not much will deal with him.
Again it all comes back to Maro and the data driven philosophy. I bet the data did not suggest that people would be rating Standards at 3/10 or whatever, and yet despite their policies we arrived there. If you take everything away that people dislike you get a mess. If people quit the game over being taxed out of a game then that is not much different to people who hate the taxes but then quit when the next 'copter comes out and they put no answers in.
First, cheap land destruction needs to go away and never come back. The single element that makes a game of Magic into a very un-fun non-game is mana screw, and somehow people argue that printing cheap land destruction is healthy for the game? If you want to play cards by yourself so badly, just play solitaire.
Really? Honestly, I thought Stone Rain was never a problem. Heck, Pillage would be nice to have back from time to time. Why I would like to see a red shifted Sinkhole. I think that's what you mean by cheap LD. I don't think 3 CMC land destruction is much of a problem. I am annoyed wizards keeps printing garbage like Demolish. LD keeps lands in check, however you don't want like 3 different stone rain effects in standard since they get nasty in multiples.
Heck wizards even quit printing Boomerang since it could hit a land. I feel wizards has taken it too far.
~Edit~
Also surprised seeing this from since you play box.
~Edit again~
I did not notice the extra quote box lol.
First, cheap land destruction needs to go away and never come back. The single element that makes a game of Magic into a very un-fun non-game is mana screw, and somehow people argue that printing cheap land destruction is healthy for the game? If you want to play cards by yourself so badly, just play solitaire.
Really? Honestly, I thought Stone Rain was never a problem. Heck, Pillage would be nice to have back from time to time. Why I would like to see a red shifted Sinkhole. I think that's what you mean by cheap LD. I don't think 3 CMC land destruction is much of a problem. I am annoyed wizards keeps printing garbage like Demolish. LD keeps lands in check, however you don't want like 3 different stone rain effects in standard since they get nasty in multiples.
Heck wizards even quite printing Boomerang since it could hit a land. I feel wizards has taken it too far.
~Edit~
Also surprised seeing this from since you play box.
First, cheap land destruction needs to go away and never come back. The single element that makes a game of Magic into a very un-fun non-game is mana screw, and somehow people argue that printing cheap land destruction is healthy for the game? If you want to play cards by yourself so badly, just play solitaire.
Really? Honestly, I thought Stone Rain was never a problem. Heck, Pillage would be nice to have back from time to time. Why I would like to see a red shifted Sinkhole. I think that's what you mean by cheap LD. I don't think 3 CMC land destruction is much of a problem. I am annoyed wizards keeps printing garbage like Demolish. LD keeps lands in check, however you don't want like 3 different stone rain effects in standard since they get nasty in multiples.
Heck wizards even quite printing Boomerang since it could hit a land. I feel wizards has taken it too far.
~Edit~
Also surprised seeing this from since you play box.
I believe the poster of the quote is orlouge82
Oh, it does look to that way. Just so many quote boxes. Did not realize that.
Ravnica-Timespiral is still regarded as one of the best standard environments and it was one of my favorites too. What was good about it? Every color had good tools and a variety of strategies were playable. Invasion was a good standard environment as well. They need to go back to designing like they did in those times. Timespiral still remains one of my favorite blocks for the sheer number of decks and strategies you could build from it. Many of my casual decks still center greatly on timespiral block.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
none
Modern UBG B/U/G control BBB MBC WUR Control WWW Prison RRR Goblins
Legacy BBB Pox UBG B/U/G Control UWU StoneBlade UW Miracle Control
Ravnica-Timespiral is still regarded as one of the best standard environments and it was one of my favorites too. What was good about it? Every color had good tools and a variety of strategies were playable. Invasion was a good standard environment as well. They need to go back to designing like they did in those times. Timespiral still remains one of my favorite blocks for the sheer number of decks and strategies you could build from it. Many of my casual decks still center greatly on timespiral block.
i wholeheartedly agree that timespiral block was one of best for me personally, but apparently a lot of other players didn't feel this way, because Wizards have stated in the past (don't ask me for a link, I just remember what they said, not when) that it didn't sell very well and there was some kind of discomfort with the complexity of the block? not cohesive enough? who knows.
I think it's up there with my favourites. so many amazing cards that stick out as being historically significant for the game in some way.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Those creatures were played because they were the best creatures available, and you have to play creatures in order to win the game (well, most of the time). Desert wasn't played much because other answers to creatures were just that much more powerful. I don't know much about Tim, but Black Knight was probably good because neither Swords to Plowshares nor Terror could hit it, White Knight was part of an Armageddon build, and Hypnotic Specter was overpowered due to being part of a game that had Dark Ritual, meaning it was powerful due to the sheer power of noncreature spells, and the remainder of creatures were similarly powerful due to the interactions of major answers (and riding Armageddon too)
Desert wasn't played because the answers were so powerful back then, also, many players didn't play enough creatures for it to be worth the inclusion, this was due to creatures being a bad card type back then.
You can't just list cards of a different meta as an argument, you have to understand how they interacted with the rest of the game.
I played Geistflame during Innistrad Standard. The card was powerful due to being a meta call. But when I faced the kids in the after school club I worked at, the card was completely dead.
WotC found Desert overtly restrictive of what cards they could reasonably make. Contrary to Geistflame, Desert is a colorless answer that costs no mana to play (requiring a land drop + skipping one mana for one turn is not a very high cost for what it does). Additionally, Desert doesn't go to the grave after you activate it. As such it severely warps what kind of cards are useful in a standard environment. This does not mean that Desert is necessarily overpowered, because it isn't. There's a difference between making a balanced game and making a fun game. Land destruction at cmc 3 is reasonable power level-wise. That doesn't mean it's healthy for the format to reprint Stone Rain, because it does bad things for the meta (for different reasons than Desert does, of course). Yes, they could have printed Desert, but then every creature with 1 toughness (or 2 toughness in a format with weenie tokens) had to have many more resources invested. It's probably possible for WotC to craft an Amonkhet format with Desert, but that requires time, money and effort, and they reasoned it was simply not worth the amount of restrictions it brought to their card designs.
The problem with this argument is current creatures are pretty much all better than Hypnotic Specter.
Go ahead, try beating the BW Zombies list from the PT with a zombie tribal deck from ODY-ONS Standard using the removal from BFZ-AKH instead of Smother, Innocent Blood, Chainer's Edict or Mutilate. Then try again with the appropiate spells and see who's the undead boss.
Save for monsters like Masticore, Morphling and Spiritmonger, creatures used to be pieces of a greater puzzle. Nowadays they're all value engines with superficial synergies making them even better. Nobody is asking for OP spells, people are asking for spells that are adequate to the ridiculous power level creatures and planeswalkers are playing with nowadays.
I don't see how this is a problem with my argument. Most of the creatures back then were awful, and they played the best of them because they naturally were the best, and creatures are usually necessary to win the game. That's what I pointed out. My main problem with the post was the embarassing claim that somehow Desert is a super fun card to add to standard. It wasn't played back then because a) better answers existed and b) not enough creatures were played for it to matter, if we are to trust a quote from MaRo.
Anyways, I don't see how my argument is problematic. Nothing I said restricts the printing of proper answers. In fact I believe answers today are way too weak. There's just a difference between printing Doom Blade and printing Ligthning Bolt or Counterspell.
EDIT: Just saw your second post. WotC believes Elvish Mystic and 4 cmc wrath warps formats, not because of power, but because it makes designing other cards much more inflexible. It's like my Desert example - yes, it's probably balanced, but suddenly all 1- and 2-toughness creatures are heavily restrained due to a colorless answer that works in basically every deck. Elvish Mystic made it so that 3 mana green creatures had much less design space, as they had to be balanced around a one drop. Also, Wrath really polices aggro decks, which is fine, but they found that moving the cost to 5 made a larger variety of cards playable in aggro decks as well as giving more deckbuilding options due to lesser board pressure (although I've really begun to question whether 4 mana wraths are really that bad.)
Ravnica-Timespiral is still regarded as one of the best standard environments and it was one of my favorites too. What was good about it? Every color had good tools and a variety of strategies were playable. Invasion was a good standard environment as well. They need to go back to designing like they did in those times. Timespiral still remains one of my favorite blocks for the sheer number of decks and strategies you could build from it. Many of my casual decks still center greatly on timespiral block.
i wholeheartedly agree that timespiral block was one of best for me personally, but apparently a lot of other players didn't feel this way, because Wizards have stated in the past (don't ask me for a link, I just remember what they said, not when) that it didn't sell very well and there was some kind of discomfort with the complexity of the block? not cohesive enough? who knows.
I think it's up there with my favourites. so many amazing cards that stick out as being historically significant for the game in some way.
My two favorite segments of blocks were Elwynn / Shadowmoor and the prior Time Spiral blocks. The catch being both sets also didn't sell very well for reasons probably outside of WoTCs control. We had the great recession at one point going on and at the other there was a dip in MtG popularity due to other hobbies. Basically, Time Spiral wasn't unpopular, it was competing with the likes of an emerging World of Warcraft, the original Nintendo Wii console that took the world by storm and captured the imagination of players from all walks in life, and Yu-Gi-Oh was going onto it's 4th year in the US and growing rapidly. In fact, I blame Yu-Gi-Oh for some of the things we see now in Magic the Gathering for better or worse, such as the Mythic Rarity and more emphasis on summoning creatures than the use of spells.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Has an LD deck every really broken a format? I can't really remember a truly busted LD deck.
LD - and stone rain - is easy to balance. The problem isn't the power level, the problem is that the times it works the game simply isn't fun for the vast majority of players. And not just as in a sense of "this game is boring", but in a sense of "this game is so frustrating I don't want to play anymore today." Why would you push a mechanic that is based upon mana screw? And don't say that the players need to mature or to become more patient - WotC is a business and do not have the capability to fundamentally change human psychology. They have to accept that for the most part and design for it, not against it. Otherwise the game doesn't sell.
Has an LD deck every really broken a format? I can't really remember a truly busted LD deck.
LD - and stone rain - is easy to balance. The problem isn't the power level, the problem is that the times it works the game simply isn't fun for the vast majority of players. And not just as in a sense of "this game is boring", but in a sense of "this game is so frustrating I don't want to play anymore today." Why would you push a mechanic that is based upon mana screw? And don't say that the players need to mature or to become more patient - WotC is a business and do not have the capability to fundamentally change human psychology. They have to accept that for the most part and design for it, not against it. Otherwise the game doesn't sell.
why not? its all part of the game. You just have to be careful not to make too many playable versions at once. Rav/Kam's Magnivore decks are good example of using LD without completely overwhelming a format. And players do need to grow the hell up. You dont have to change human psychology because plenty of people are mature enough to take their lumps when they come because frankly, thats just a part of life. We shouldnt be making excuses for the "take my ball and go home" types
The one thing that throws me off about this announcement is the talk of making sure mechanics are balanced. None of the banned cards had an issue because a mechanic itself is flawed; it is that the card itself is pushed. Trample isn't an unbalanced mechanic, but a 10/10 for 1G with trample would be.
Also, I dont see why they arent willing to explore using downsides. I know I know, players feel bad whatever. Then they dont have to use those cards. Downside mechanics dont make sense, downside cards do. Why not a UU counterspell that deals you 3 damage? Sure it is strictly worse than counterspell; so is Cancel. Same with a 4 mana wrath. What about a 4 mana wrath that deals damage to you equal to the amount of creatures destroyed?
quote id,
Has an LD deck every really broken a format? I can't really remember a truly busted LD deck.
I recall a deck around 4rth edition with Armageddon, stone rain, swords to plowshares its goal was to reset the game a few times then win. But there were counters then to stop it as long as you played blue.The deck was not oppressive then because there were better answers and it ran slow at times, you could out tempo it.
It wont come back because of the "fun" factor of playing against that type of deck, same is true for heavy counter spells.
Standard should be a spring board to enter into the game with and create a "usable" card pool to play in other formats with effectively. In recent sets WOTC has upset that balance badly, both in modern (Eldrazi Winter) and currently in standard with OP single cards that should have been spotted well before release. Some careful thought on design would have solved this. Reflector mage If this card was a 4cmc would it still be an issue?
Emekul the promised end, If it did not have emerge or the mindslave ability would it still be OP. In the recent sets WOTC has put out several cards that can cheat a card into play without casting it for its cmc. Its not these mechanics that hurt but the interactions to deal with them that are not available until the next set 3 months down the road. Westvale Abbey is a great card flipped. Its kept in check by its cost, it cant activate early, giving your opponent time to react. Copy Cat combo should have been spotted. Different wording on the Cat could have prevented it. Based on magics past experiences a Play Tester/Developer should have realized this. This experience comes from playing in other card pools and other formats Understanding a Broken card or a Broken Combo or "seeing the potential" of breaking something with things that already exist. The fundamental question is do these Play Testers have this experience? We don't know. Winning a tourney with a net deck is not the same thing as experience or knowledge of the game.
In the past colors all had an answer to each problem, they all dealt with it in there own way some more efficiently than others but you could find your answer in your chosen color. WOTC has gotten away from that.
The troubling part is how Wizards has approached the problems. They allowed the Cat Combo to exist and enter the format. Then they waited for it to warp the format. Then they waited for a new set release to "fix it". Then they had a Ban List announcement (not including Cat). Then 2 days later they Emergency Banned it.
Overall I believe the format is Healthier, but the confidence in WOTC is not. A step in the right direction? We shall all see.
I'd say anything that's obviously broken isn't needed. Also most of those are on the reserve list anyway.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
Common sense according to whom? Example Arcbound Ravager was banned in Standard, but legal in modern/legacy, Jace the mindsculpter was banned in standard and modern but never banned in legacy or vintage, Skulclamp was banned in standard, modern and Legacy but never in vintage. Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage but legal in Legacy (and was not banned during its run in T2) The same can be said of Trinsphear Its not so simple as that. Note I am not disagreeing with you, I think standard has gone way too far weak (my god a mana dork too powerful is something else.....) just that some guild lines need to be put in place before we go printing willy nilly.
If they want Standard to be anything but the two decks that can shove in the best and most mythics in. They will reprint/functional reprint Mana Leak, Doom Blade, Searing Spear, Elvish Mystic, a 4cmc white Wrath and Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus so that they're in Standard all the time. Otherwise it's clear they don't want the game to be open and balanced, they want to force sales with a single card each set and sell a lottery instead of a game.
White: Path to exile, Wrath of God, Wall of Omens, Ghostly Prison, Baneslayer Angel
Blue: Mana Leak, Ponder, Remand, Think Twice, Phantasmal Image, Dismiss
Black: Innocent Blood, Duress, Stupor, Tendrils of Corruption, Mutilate
Red: Lightning Bolt, Ball Lightning, Flame Rift, Goblin Guide, Stone Rain
Green: Birds of Paradise, Scavenging Ooze, Primeval Titan, Eternal Witness, Rancor
Nothing on the list is broken by any means and would greatly improve standard.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
At the cost of sounding nitpicky, emergency bans are good for the game. It's their necessity that is bad.
But I agree: it's a shame they need to happen currently; and MaRo has no idea what he is doing.
I hear ya
The thing about legscy and vintage is that collection wise it is done over the years.
Standard decks tend to be built like instant noodles. You build everything from a more limited pool, there is nothing wrong with that. Its fun and you get to play with snazzy new cards. It is very accessible. For legacy tho, decks or rather the collection is built over time, so its less stressful on the pocket, it also rewards the casual brewer looking to break less regarded cards. This creates a perception for initial entry players that legacy is expensive. It is expensive if you must have the deck quickly, it is less so if you are just dwardling and building your collection.
What is my point? What i am tryubg to say is that current standard players should be able to build on their collection, so that over time they can draw on their cardpool to build decks for a more "eternal" format, be it modern, legacy or vintage.
This brings me to two more points. 1) building a collection, ... to what??? 2) balance and design space.
1) by this i mean to what end are we building our collection to? Going completely bfz (sans dear gideon) will yield a block cube. Or the sets could contain modern potential nuggets or even legacy or vintage nuggets. Its really up to wotc/hasbro to decide how they want to develope the type and depth of longevity they want to build with the game.and it starts with standard. On this front i think they are doing oki with creatures and planeswalkers but stack based effects and in general other playstyles need some love. This is to help players build their collection, so that their collection has at the very least, play value if not monetory value.
2) balance and design space. As you have alluded, balance does not mean gameplay and power level has to be bland or weak. Even limited draft can be powerful yet balanced. However the thing is by printibg best of breed (i.e. powerful) of cards they reduce design space which mean they have to think harder to design laterally. Which is more difficult. Yet they want to sell more sets, so it creates pressure to keep printing stuff people will buy. Their current solution is to print weak cards and variate the strength to spread design over more sets. This is why they prefer balance through weakness. It is better for sales which is not terrible, they have been doing it from day one. Printing a few gems in a load of chaff. The problem is when set is pure chaff, is it something players can continue to justify to buy? It is effectively killing the longevity of the game if players cannot find future use for their cards. I don't think we are there yet but all this talk of nerfing for balance is disconcerting.
3) oh yay i have a third point. Again i think you alluded to it. And that is attitudes and preferred gameplay style. Some people like powerful game plays some like midrangy some like fast paced games, some like prison some like control some like permission. There are currently 3 eternal formats for wotc to shape. I feel they present opportunities for differing preferences. There might even be one for power level akin to standard (perhaps with ample bannings so that it does not become modern 2.0 and remain at intended power. In a similar way they could reprint counterspell in standard, let it run in modern and ban it if its really bad or not the kind of modern they want)
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
"The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
—Emily Dickinson
For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
This is why they should have banned cat pre-set release. They had the chance! The day after they spoiled cat a pro threw up an article on Channel Fireball pointing out it was broken and how they couldn't believe it. Maro and crew had their <whathuh?> moment and then DECIDED to highlight the combo on WotC's webpage and basically brag about the abomination to come. THAT is how bad Maro and anyone tasked with keeping him in check are. Pre-ban and no one loses money. You still open kitty, play limited with it, and spoil other formats with it, instead we got emergency ban because we have no clue what we're doing.
This new team of 'players' become testers is actually a good idea... however, I feel bad for them. Who do you think Maro is going to blame when he overrules them, prints broken creatures and trick cards (because he doesn't want to print anything else good right?) and then says, 'whelp... too bad the test crew didn't catch that, they're a work in progress'. Feels like Maro buying time as he sinks the ship.
I can't believe people are still trying to rail against 'answers aren't good enough' when even Maro has admitted they nerfed them on purpose.
Playing bad cards to beat good cards is always a losing proposition. Which is exactly what artifact specific hate is. And oh wait... there is no real planeswalker hate. (Plz don't point out ruinous waste of time.)
I like the list, a lot of those sorts of cards should be in Standard in some form. Ghostly Prison in draft might be hard to get past them. Perhaps it could go in one of the "intro" decks rather than the set itself. The thing is they could use these cards as a base for stuff that should be around- subtly varying them for freshness- one Standard Molten Rain, one Standard Stone Rain, next Standard nothing, one set BOP, one set Mystic Elves, one set Elves of Deep Shadow, next set a 2cc dork. The same with 4 mana sweepers- they could even bring in a Day of Judgement in a set with actually decent regeneration, then Supreme Verdict or a new one with a 2 colour element, then back to something conditional, then 5 or 6cc or none at all. They don't have to always have these effects, just more than "never again". Prime Time might be a bit OTT- not much will deal with him.
Again it all comes back to Maro and the data driven philosophy. I bet the data did not suggest that people would be rating Standards at 3/10 or whatever, and yet despite their policies we arrived there. If you take everything away that people dislike you get a mess. If people quit the game over being taxed out of a game then that is not much different to people who hate the taxes but then quit when the next 'copter comes out and they put no answers in.
Really? Honestly, I thought Stone Rain was never a problem. Heck, Pillage would be nice to have back from time to time. Why I would like to see a red shifted Sinkhole. I think that's what you mean by cheap LD. I don't think 3 CMC land destruction is much of a problem. I am annoyed wizards keeps printing garbage like Demolish. LD keeps lands in check, however you don't want like 3 different stone rain effects in standard since they get nasty in multiples.
Heck wizards even quit printing Boomerang since it could hit a land. I feel wizards has taken it too far.
~Edit~
Also surprised seeing this from since you play box.
~Edit again~
I did not notice the extra quote box lol.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
It probably still wouldn't be any good, but could potentially see use, just not as a dedicated strategy.
Also, something along the lines of Mwonvuli Acid-Moss might be a little too good...
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I believe the poster of the quote is orlouge82
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
"The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
—Emily Dickinson
For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Oh, it does look to that way. Just so many quote boxes. Did not realize that.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
i wholeheartedly agree that timespiral block was one of best for me personally, but apparently a lot of other players didn't feel this way, because Wizards have stated in the past (don't ask me for a link, I just remember what they said, not when) that it didn't sell very well and there was some kind of discomfort with the complexity of the block? not cohesive enough? who knows.
I think it's up there with my favourites. so many amazing cards that stick out as being historically significant for the game in some way.
I don't see how this is a problem with my argument. Most of the creatures back then were awful, and they played the best of them because they naturally were the best, and creatures are usually necessary to win the game. That's what I pointed out. My main problem with the post was the embarassing claim that somehow Desert is a super fun card to add to standard. It wasn't played back then because a) better answers existed and b) not enough creatures were played for it to matter, if we are to trust a quote from MaRo.
Anyways, I don't see how my argument is problematic. Nothing I said restricts the printing of proper answers. In fact I believe answers today are way too weak. There's just a difference between printing Doom Blade and printing Ligthning Bolt or Counterspell.
EDIT: Just saw your second post. WotC believes Elvish Mystic and 4 cmc wrath warps formats, not because of power, but because it makes designing other cards much more inflexible. It's like my Desert example - yes, it's probably balanced, but suddenly all 1- and 2-toughness creatures are heavily restrained due to a colorless answer that works in basically every deck. Elvish Mystic made it so that 3 mana green creatures had much less design space, as they had to be balanced around a one drop. Also, Wrath really polices aggro decks, which is fine, but they found that moving the cost to 5 made a larger variety of cards playable in aggro decks as well as giving more deckbuilding options due to lesser board pressure (although I've really begun to question whether 4 mana wraths are really that bad.)
My two favorite segments of blocks were Elwynn / Shadowmoor and the prior Time Spiral blocks. The catch being both sets also didn't sell very well for reasons probably outside of WoTCs control. We had the great recession at one point going on and at the other there was a dip in MtG popularity due to other hobbies. Basically, Time Spiral wasn't unpopular, it was competing with the likes of an emerging World of Warcraft, the original Nintendo Wii console that took the world by storm and captured the imagination of players from all walks in life, and Yu-Gi-Oh was going onto it's 4th year in the US and growing rapidly. In fact, I blame Yu-Gi-Oh for some of the things we see now in Magic the Gathering for better or worse, such as the Mythic Rarity and more emphasis on summoning creatures than the use of spells.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
LD - and stone rain - is easy to balance. The problem isn't the power level, the problem is that the times it works the game simply isn't fun for the vast majority of players. And not just as in a sense of "this game is boring", but in a sense of "this game is so frustrating I don't want to play anymore today." Why would you push a mechanic that is based upon mana screw? And don't say that the players need to mature or to become more patient - WotC is a business and do not have the capability to fundamentally change human psychology. They have to accept that for the most part and design for it, not against it. Otherwise the game doesn't sell.
Also, I dont see why they arent willing to explore using downsides. I know I know, players feel bad whatever. Then they dont have to use those cards. Downside mechanics dont make sense, downside cards do. Why not a UU counterspell that deals you 3 damage? Sure it is strictly worse than counterspell; so is Cancel. Same with a 4 mana wrath. What about a 4 mana wrath that deals damage to you equal to the amount of creatures destroyed?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Has an LD deck every really broken a format? I can't really remember a truly busted LD deck.
I recall a deck around 4rth edition with Armageddon, stone rain, swords to plowshares its goal was to reset the game a few times then win. But there were counters then to stop it as long as you played blue.The deck was not oppressive then because there were better answers and it ran slow at times, you could out tempo it.
It wont come back because of the "fun" factor of playing against that type of deck, same is true for heavy counter spells.
Standard should be a spring board to enter into the game with and create a "usable" card pool to play in other formats with effectively. In recent sets WOTC has upset that balance badly, both in modern (Eldrazi Winter) and currently in standard with OP single cards that should have been spotted well before release. Some careful thought on design would have solved this. Reflector mage If this card was a 4cmc would it still be an issue?
Emekul the promised end, If it did not have emerge or the mindslave ability would it still be OP. In the recent sets WOTC has put out several cards that can cheat a card into play without casting it for its cmc. Its not these mechanics that hurt but the interactions to deal with them that are not available until the next set 3 months down the road. Westvale Abbey is a great card flipped. Its kept in check by its cost, it cant activate early, giving your opponent time to react. Copy Cat combo should have been spotted. Different wording on the Cat could have prevented it. Based on magics past experiences a Play Tester/Developer should have realized this. This experience comes from playing in other card pools and other formats Understanding a Broken card or a Broken Combo or "seeing the potential" of breaking something with things that already exist. The fundamental question is do these Play Testers have this experience? We don't know. Winning a tourney with a net deck is not the same thing as experience or knowledge of the game.
In the past colors all had an answer to each problem, they all dealt with it in there own way some more efficiently than others but you could find your answer in your chosen color. WOTC has gotten away from that.
The troubling part is how Wizards has approached the problems. They allowed the Cat Combo to exist and enter the format. Then they waited for it to warp the format. Then they waited for a new set release to "fix it". Then they had a Ban List announcement (not including Cat). Then 2 days later they Emergency Banned it.
Overall I believe the format is Healthier, but the confidence in WOTC is not. A step in the right direction? We shall all see.