I feel like we need the long awaited mirror of Legion, ie a set that only has spells, artifacts and lands. (and no "put a token in play spells thats a cop out) an entire set without a single point of power or toughness. Give us a standard with say a total of 10 creatur (or creature based like the token spells) are in print and thats it, thats including the limited fodder everything! everything else is fun enchantments, artifacts, instants, sorcery
So everyone can finally see how awful that idea is? Game takes its worse nose dive in a decade resulting in three consecutive sets of nothing but dragons and planeswalkers trying to rebuild what people loved?
I feel like we need the long awaited mirror of Legion, ie a set that only has spells, artifacts and lands. (and no "put a token in play spells thats a cop out) an entire set without a single point of power or toughness. Give us a standard with say a total of 10 creatur (or creature based like the token spells) are in print and thats it, thats including the limited fodder everything! everything else is fun enchantments, artifacts, instants, sorcery
They have enough horrible ideas. Lets not give them more
It is not the department that is the issue. It is the philosophy.
Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, cheap removal and everything else the new players hate have been removed, leaving an anodyne mess of a game and a standard solved in seconds that can't shift once the best two or three creature/planeswalker decks have been esablished per set. Meanwhile those easily irritated new players and more casuals have just sodded off to the commander tables to feed the monster Wizards inadvertently legitimised. You don't need a new department to fix this, you need a new philosophy.
Maro has a philosophy and maxim for many things, he write about them all the time in his columns. Unfortunately his philosophy is "Gatewatch: the gathering" and "zoos are better than spells", both of which are unchallenged axioms that the current team cling to for dear life. Only when the fear of "unfun" changes will things get better.
Totally agree it is a decade of this philoshophy that has gotten us here today unfortunately. Just look at which cards actually hold value. If the game were healthier the price disparity would be far less.
If it wasn't $20 creatures, it'd be $20 counterspells and card draw.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal are things the majority of players hate. And claiming they've been removed when we have stuff like Ceremonious Rejection, Fatal Push, and Dissenter's Deliverance is just asinine.
FYI, the creatures nowadays aren't as pushed as the time of Baneslayer and the Titan 5. And you know what card single-handedly lead to that era of power creep? Lightning Bolt. When the hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal get better, everything else has to get better, or those things take over the game and then the problem is simply rotated 180°. You complain about people who "only" want the game to be about creatures and planeswalkers, yet what I see here is that you people only want the game to be about instants and sorceries, which is equally bad. It's a mice vs. mousetraps argument.
NEWS FLASH: Pushed, overly-dominant cards aren't fun, no matter what they do. The difference is that a Baneslayer Angel can still be Doom Bladed. A Heart of Kiran can be Shattered. Permanents still have removal to keep them in check. What keeps pushed counterspells in check? Uncounterable spells, and, oh yeah, counterspells.
Honestly, this kind of hypocrite mentality makes me not take a lot of criticism around here seriously, because in the end, it's the same complaints the "other team" would be spewing, only in reverse.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
thats just.......nonsense. There should be enough diversity for everyone. All those things the "majority" claim to hate made Ravnica Standard one of the most open and beloved metas the game has ever seen.
It is not the department that is the issue. It is the philosophy.
Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, cheap removal and everything else the new players hate have been removed, leaving an anodyne mess of a game and a standard solved in seconds that can't shift once the best two or three creature/planeswalker decks have been esablished per set. Meanwhile those easily irritated new players and more casuals have just sodded off to the commander tables to feed the monster Wizards inadvertently legitimised. You don't need a new department to fix this, you need a new philosophy.
Maro has a philosophy and maxim for many things, he write about them all the time in his columns. Unfortunately his philosophy is "Gatewatch: the gathering" and "zoos are better than spells", both of which are unchallenged axioms that the current team cling to for dear life. Only when the fear of "unfun" changes will things get better.
Totally agree it is a decade of this philoshophy that has gotten us here today unfortunately. Just look at which cards actually hold value. If the game were healthier the price disparity would be far less.
First, cheap land destruction needs to go away and never come back. The single element that makes a game of Magic into a very un-fun non-game is mana screw, and somehow people argue that printing cheap land destruction is healthy for the game? If you want to play cards by yourself so badly, just play solitaire.
Hand destruction is doing just fine now. Instead of just reprinting Duress and Distress ad nauseum, they're creating new hand disruption cards like Lay Bare the Heart, which is actually very powerful since the cards that it can't hit can easily be killed with removal -- especially since they've scaled back on Hexproof so much thanks to players whining about creatures getting too strong.
And you're going to actually complain about taxes when they just reprinted Aven Mindcensor in a Standard legal set? Or printed Gideon's Intervention, the new Thalia, or Reduce // Rubble? If you think that taxes should be so strong that they deny the opponent the ability to do anything, you should, again, just be playing solitaire.
Same thing with counterspells and cheap removal. Disallow is arguably one of the strongest counters ever printed. They also just reprinted Essence Scatter. Commit // Memory is incredibly versatile on the front in being able to "counter" spells (even uncounterable ones), or remove any troublesome permanents except lands, and being an expensive Timetwister on the back end. Fatal Push may be the best cheap removal ever printed (aside, perhaps, from Swords to Plowshares).
And if you aren't playing with planeswalkers in your deck, you are missing out on a lot of fun. They are such a great addition to the game (and this is coming from someone who bought a pack of Revised as his first pack of Magic when the Revised box was sitting next to a box of Legends).
If it wasn't $20 creatures, it'd be $20 counterspells and card draw.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal are things the majority of players hate. And claiming they've been removed when we have stuff like Ceremonious Rejection, Fatal Push, and Dissenter's Deliverance is just asinine.
FYI, the creatures nowadays aren't as pushed as the time of Baneslayer and the Titan 5. And you know what card single-handedly lead to that era of power creep? Lightning Bolt. When the hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal get better, everything else has to get better, or those things take over the game and then the problem is simply rotated 180°. You complain about people who "only" want the game to be about creatures and planeswalkers, yet what I see here is that you people only want the game to be about instants and sorceries, which is equally bad. It's a mice vs. mousetraps argument.
NEWS FLASH: Pushed, overly-dominant cards aren't fun, no matter what they do. The difference is that a Baneslayer Angel can still be Doom Bladed. A Heart of Kiran can be Shattered. Permanents still have removal to keep them in check. What keeps pushed counterspells in check? Uncounterable spells, and, oh yeah, counterspells.
Honestly, this kind of hypocrite mentality makes me not take a lot of criticism around here seriously, because in the end, it's the same complaints the "other team" would be spewing, only in reverse.
Agreed 100%. Bolt should never be in Standard again, nor should Counterspell. They would be format warping cards that would scare all but a select group of players away from the game.
Wizards is clearly trying to appease the majority of players with the recent changes they've made, and I can't tell if people are just ignoring this or are just looking for a reason to complain.
Seriously, if they are intent on printing wildly powerful threats that demand exceedingly specific answers, make sure that those answers are both present and line up with the other wildly powerful threats they insist on printing.
IE: Don't print a sorcery speed Heroes' Downfall into a format that is going to have Vehicles and one of the most powerful planeswalkers ever printed.
What did you think was going to happen there?
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
Seriously, if they are intent on printing wildly powerful threats that demand exceedingly specific answers, make sure that those answers are both present and line up with the other wildly powerful threats they insist on printing.
IE: Don't print a sorcery speed Heroes' Downfall into a format that is going to have Vehicles and one of the most powerful planeswalkers ever printed.
What did you think was going to happen there?
From what I can tell they thought it would produce a flying monopoly man with money bags going strait to their headquarters. "They" being either Hasbro or WoTC executives. I'm not completely convinced which group yet. Those communications meetings must be the thing of legends given how disconnected everyone would have to be over there to let all the problems we are seeing pass on through. I wrote a post over in another thread already stating that this is probably all the fault of marketing getting a bunch of sales metrics and not consulting the developers on the whole dropping core set reprints and putting them on an even tighter treadmill. Now they are "restructuring departments" and telling us that this is going to solve the issues.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm starting to think the only reason Mardu Vehicles is still even a contender is because folks keep overlooking these spells for their sideboards.
EDIT: Did some research, and I see that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is the real backbone of the Vehicles deck, being the one card in the deck that most Standard removal can't easily deal with. Time to Reflect will make an Esper Zombies deck more effective as blocking Gideon with a Zombie shouldn't be hard. Lost Legacy can exile all copies of Gideon from a deck. Anguished Unmaking is another cheap removal that works on either Gideon or Heart.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Seriously, if they are intent on printing wildly powerful threats that demand exceedingly specific answers, make sure that those answers are both present and line up with the other wildly powerful threats they insist on printing.
IE: Don't print a sorcery speed Heroes' Downfall into a format that is going to have Vehicles and one of the most powerful planeswalkers ever printed.
What did you think was going to happen there?
And that's being naive/hopeful enough that they didn't design this enviroment on purpose so that their Superman would be on camera at every tournament's winning tables during it's whole stay in Standard.
Only time Gideon, Ally of Zendikar isn't in top8 is when he wasn't supposed to be in Standard anymore? How not suspicious for a mythic rare in a large set that depicts their current main character.
Actually the strongest cards I've played with were things like Memory Jar in combination with Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and other powerful legacy ramp cards. Combo that with Megrim and you basically had the precursor to grapeshot... on steroids. Don't get me started on Yawgmoth's Will.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Actually the strongest cards I've played with were things like Memory Jar in combination with Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and other powerful legacy ramp cards. Combo that with Megrim and you basically had the precursor to grapeshot... on steroids. Don't get me started on Yawgmoth's Will.
Please get started. Those links got my heart all-a-flutter!
The first card is so specific that no one is going to use it unless it is required by the meta. The 2nd is amazing and that can't be argued. The 3rd on the other hand you act like that existed while Vehicle problems were everywhere. Deliverance has only been out a couple weeks, but before that getting rid of artifacts was a huge problem. Before Deliverance there was Fragmentize and....a bunch of expensive answers because for some reason WotC didn't want you being able to destroy artifacts, almost at all, even though they took over for months.
When the hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal get better, everything else has to get better....
Which is weird because spells got worse while creatures stayed just as good, if not better, over time. So if creatures continued to get strong over time why didn't spells get better in turn? Titans and Baneslayer were answers to spells, but once spells got worse why did creatures need to stay just as good?
NEWS FLASH: Pushed, overly-dominant cards aren't fun, no matter what they do.
This is true.
The difference is that a Baneslayer Angel can still be Doom Bladed. A Heart of Kiran can be Shattered. Permanents still have removal to keep them in check. What keeps pushed counterspells in check? Uncounterable spells, and, oh yeah, counterspells.
No one is asking for pushed counterspells or removal, they are asking for those that are good enough.
Honestly, this kind of hypocrite mentality makes me not take a lot of criticism around here seriously, because in the end, it's the same complaints the "other team" would be spewing, only in reverse.
It's not hypocrisy to see that one segment of the game isn't matching up and wanting that fixed. Doesn't matter if it is when creature or spells are too good.
First, cheap land destruction needs to go away and never come back. The single element that makes a game of Magic into a very un-fun non-game is mana screw, and somehow people argue that printing cheap land destruction is healthy for the game? If you want to play cards by yourself so badly, just play solitaire.
While cheap land destruction is a problem having proper land destruction can be good for the game. Take Valakut for an example, if there wasn't Tectonic Edge Valakut would have been nigh unbeatable, even with Cawblade around. Having decent land destruction can help certain Standard seasons from having 4 or 5 color good stuff decks and punishes them for stretching themselves too thin.
Hand destruction is doing just fine now. Instead of just reprinting Duress and Distress ad nauseum, they're creating new hand disruption cards like Lay Bare the Heart, which is actually very powerful since the cards that it can't hit can easily be killed with removal -- especially since they've scaled back on Hexproof so much thanks to players whining about creatures getting too strong.
I can agree that hand disruption is about right in Standard's current season, but I think it went from subpar to about perfect when Lay Bare the Heart came out, before that there was only one decent discard spell, but now there are two, which helps things immensely.
And you're going to actually complain about taxes when they just reprinted Aven Mindcensor in a Standard legal set?
You realize they were able to reprint it because it does close to nothing right now, right? That card taxes what, Nissa's Renewal, Attune with Aether, Inventor's Fair, Evolving Wilds, and that's it? There's a reason why it isn't being played, because there is close to nothing to tax. Still a great reprint though.
Disallow is arguably one of the strongest counters ever printed.
It was also strong when Voidslime was printed, because they do the exact same thing and both are good, but saying "one of the strongest" is a bit of a stretch. One of the most versatile I'd say.
They also just reprinted Essence Scatter.[ Commit // Memory is incredibly versatile on the front in being able to "counter" spells (even uncounterable ones), or remove any troublesome permanents except lands, and being an expensive Timetwister on the back end. Fatal Push may be the best cheap removal ever printed (aside, perhaps, from Swords to Plowshares).
Essense Scatter is a great counterspell, in the right environments. It is a good addition here as Standard is so creature focused right now, but with Vehicles it isn't as great.
Commit // Memory is one that I'm surprised isn't played more, but just because it has Timetwister attached to it doesn't mean it is automatically amazing. Without a home to be played in the card just doesn't shine, although it does have some power behind it.
Fatal Push is certainly strong, one of the best removal spells in the game with such a low cost, but in Standard its full potential isn't always utilized. Outside of Standard the card is fantastic and one of the best additions the game has had, and it was a definite right step in the right direction for Standard, but to get Revolt going you are usually losing a card just to kill something else, and 2-for-1'ing yourself is never a great feeling.
I assume the reason they created this department was due to people not entering the game the same rate as about 3 to 4 years ago; lame standard, lame sets and lame drafts kill interest in an competitive game. WoTC needs to print cooler cards in more abundance; this may be seen as a Timmy perspective, but the cards that have been printed after Tarkir have offered very little to Timmy, Johnny (Aether revolt offered hope), or Spike. Everything is lukewarm, bland, and unimpressive. Outside of Innistrad, the flavor and art have been tanking. The game has gotten too safe; no risks taken in this mindset, or else it will collapse standard.
There needs to be more power at common and uncommon rarity. New players like powerful spells, but cant access them if they are at mythic. The entire complexity of the game and the power level needs to be pushed up.
Also no more mechanics about those damn +1/+1 counters, which to me are the laziest mechanics, and often rank low in popularity (according to Rosewater's storm scale articles). Unleash, Outlast, Tribute, Bolster, Megamorph, Fabricate, Support, Renown. All forgotten mechanics. Amonkhet is the first set to not use them for anything in a long time, aside from minimal use in shadows over Innistrad.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
Actually the strongest cards I've played with were things like Memory Jar in combination with Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and other powerful legacy ramp cards. Combo that with Megrim and you basically had the precursor to grapeshot... on steroids. Don't get me started on Yawgmoth's Will.
Please get started. Those links got my heart all-a-flutter!
Oh yeah, wizards of the coast these days prints way underpowered cards for the sake of standard way too often and when they do print something strong its always at the mythic or rare unless it's one of the legendary "mistake" cards. Desolator magic thinks that standard is garbage from overpowered cards. He doesn't even know what the heck constitutes that because he has only been playing a short while. Oh well, here's hoping that wizards R&D remembers what good / exciting cards look like...
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I feel like we need the long awaited mirror of Legion, ie a set that only has spells, artifacts and lands. (and no "put a token in play spells thats a cop out) an entire set without a single point of power or toughness. Give us a standard with say a total of 10 creatur (or creature based like the token spells) are in print and thats it, thats including the limited fodder everything! everything else is fun enchantments, artifacts, instants, sorcery
Man, that would be a really awesome idea. If not in standard, than at least a supplemental set possibly too.
I feel like we need the long awaited mirror of Legion, ie a set that only has spells, artifacts and lands. (and no "put a token in play spells thats a cop out) an entire set without a single point of power or toughness. Give us a standard with say a total of 10 creatur (or creature based like the token spells) are in print and thats it, thats including the limited fodder everything! everything else is fun enchantments, artifacts, instants, sorcery
Man, that would be a really awesome idea. If not in standard, than at least a supplemental set possibly too.
"Spell Masters" has a catchy name to it.
Thank god none of you are magic devs lol. If you don't realize how absolutely horrendous a set like that would be to play, lol?
I feel like we need the long awaited mirror of Legion, ie a set that only has spells, artifacts and lands. (and no "put a token in play spells thats a cop out) an entire set without a single point of power or toughness. Give us a standard with say a total of 10 creatur (or creature based like the token spells) are in print and thats it, thats including the limited fodder everything! everything else is fun enchantments, artifacts, instants, sorcery
Man, that would be a really awesome idea. If not in standard, than at least a supplemental set possibly too.
"Spell Masters" has a catchy name to it.
Thank god none of you are magic devs lol. If you don't realize how absolutely horrendous a set like that would be to play, lol?
Just think about what a limited game would look like in a set with no creatures. How do you kill your opponent? Are you gonna have PW's that can make tokens? Grats whoever opens one. Are you gonna have super efficient mill cards? Lots of burn? None of that makes for fun, interactive limited games.
This is actually a good move. What I take from this is that FFL was really a secondary responsibility for those on the team. Honestly, you want a group that can focus solely on interactions and play without having to worry about flavor, creating cards, crafting a limited environment. All that other stuff is important, but I feel like it is a good idea for people, who have no investment in the creation process, to be overseeing how it actually plays. We've seen plenty of times where they thought some subtheme they created would be a dominant strategy and then missed the less restrictive options. Part of that may be due to bias in the creation process, like a focus on creative interactions you had a hand in creating. I have to imagine designing cards feels rewarding when you do something clever or different or make a new playstyle. Competitive magic isn't like that. Novel strategies will typically be avoided unless they are the best thing in the room. However, those novel strategies probably take much more effort to create and tune.
@Manite: Your not wrong that it is possible to have environments too skewed towards answers. Also, bolt in standard was pretty limiting for creatures. That being said, I firmly believe that all viable threats should have viable answers in the same environment, at least for standard anyway. Doom blade, or a similar effect, feels like a largely necessary card to me.
I'm part of the "we need better counterspells crew," but for standard, that doesn't mean counterspell explicitly (for modern, however, it does). The best environments forced you to choose your threats acknowledging that you would see main-deck answers in a lot of decks. Most of the stuff you listed is side-board stuff at best. Narrow answers have a place, but some broad answers are necessary for balance. With good answers, the threat power level can be pretty high. Without it, you end up in problem town. Splinter twin existed in standard previously and was not a problem deck. The copycat thing was a problem because it was closer to putting splinter twin into homelands, where it was far and away the best thing. Do you really feel like having only planeswalker and creature centric decks makes for a fun environment?
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Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Given how the Aether Revolt standard meta evolved, it seems correct to ban copycat, but its very interesting to me that the actual splinter twin-exarch combo existed briefly in standard without dominating (supported by spell pierce, gitaxian probe, mana leak, lightning bolt, ponder and preordain no less!). Granted it was competing with other broken decks, even post JTMS/stoneforge ban, but I hope that this new team, when it encounters broken environments, will identify ways to power up competing strategies rather than just nerfing cards.
Also, it seems as if future future league, which probably has a lot of people involved in the design/development of the cards they're testing, may be too preoccupied with what their cards are "supposed" to do, rather than what they can do. If the play design team has a lot of people on it who don't design cards themselves, they'll have fresh eyes when looking at a set, and may be able to more correctly evaluate cards and environments.
. Disallow is arguably one of the strongest counters ever printed. They also just reprinted Essence Scatter. Commit // Memory is incredibly versatile on the front in being able to "counter" spells (even uncounterable ones), or remove any troublesome permanents except lands, and being an expensive Timetwister on the back end.
Agreed 100%. Bolt should never be in Standard again, nor should Counterspell. They would be format warping cards that would scare all but a select group of players away from the game.
This is blatantly false and is quite surprising to read from someone who claims to have been playing so long. Disallow is unplayable garbage outside of Standard (suggesting that a 3cmc Counterspell is one of the "most powerful" ever printed is just absurd when there are half a dozen cards that outstrip it by a mile at every CMC below 3). I mean, are you serious?
At 0: Force of Will, Daze, Mental Misstep
At 1: Force Spike, Stifle, Flusterstorm
At 2: Counterspell, Mana Drain, Mana Leak, Remand
At 3: Forbid
At 4: Cryptic
All of these outstrip Dissalow by such a wide margin at their respective point in the game or due to utility its not even worth comparing them at all.
Essence Scatter is a card with a long track record of being okay for Standard and mediocre/poor for anything else. Commit//Memory is likewise not played anywhere else. Even with all of this, the deck that played these cards was obliterated at the pro-tour just a few days ago. So they were not good enough even for current standard and can be hated out.
The allegation that Lightning Bolt and Counterspell would scare players away from the game is patently absurd as both have been around since the beginning of the game. They are powerful cards that change deckbuilding possibilities. That is all they do, the rest of the viable decks in a format is adapted to follow suit. So what. Decks are always built around something - there is no case to be made for Counterspell or Bolt being worse than T4 Marvel into Ulamog or Cat Saheeli.
However, its quite certain that more people are scared away by the 100$ price tag for a mythic planeswalker than 4 good commons they can put in their deck and make it competitive.
Thank you. That last comment about Lightning Bolt and Counterspell scaring away new players is so embarrassing, My nine year old will automatically reach for 4x Bolts when building a red deck because even his 9 year old brain can figure out that it's simple, fast, effective, and above all else, fun. That's not to say he can't play newer cards. He loves tutor, scry and cantrips because he realized, as soon as I played Demonic Tutor, that it let him digs for answers.
The cards he hates the most? Planeswalkers. Specifically the Emblems. Why? Once they hit, there's no answers for them. He thinks that Force of Will is a terrible card and Winter Orb is broken, and mana screw sucks but they all have answers one way or another. Emblems? His #1 hated feature because there are no answers.
So Lightning Bolt and Counterspell scaring away newer players? Cards printed since year dot and for years afterwards?? I call bullocks on that. Magic wouldn't have grown at all if those cards are so scary to new players.
Just think about what a limited game would look like in a set with no creatures. How do you kill your opponent? Are you gonna have PW's that can make tokens? Grats whoever opens one. Are you gonna have super efficient mill cards? Lots of burn? None of that makes for fun, interactive limited games.
I do recall mentioning that if is wasn't a standard set, then possibly a supplemental product of some sort. Not every single thing has to be for draft.
If it wasn't $20 creatures, it'd be $20 counterspells and card draw.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal are things the majority of players hate. And claiming they've been removed when we have stuff like Ceremonious Rejection, Fatal Push, and Dissenter's Deliverance is just asinine.
FYI, the creatures nowadays aren't as pushed as the time of Baneslayer and the Titan 5. And you know what card single-handedly lead to that era of power creep? Lightning Bolt. When the hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, and cheap removal get better, everything else has to get better, or those things take over the game and then the problem is simply rotated 180°. You complain about people who "only" want the game to be about creatures and planeswalkers, yet what I see here is that you people only want the game to be about instants and sorceries, which is equally bad. It's a mice vs. mousetraps argument.
NEWS FLASH: Pushed, overly-dominant cards aren't fun, no matter what they do. The difference is that a Baneslayer Angel can still be Doom Bladed. A Heart of Kiran can be Shattered. Permanents still have removal to keep them in check. What keeps pushed counterspells in check? Uncounterable spells, and, oh yeah, counterspells.
Honestly, this kind of hypocrite mentality makes me not take a lot of criticism around here seriously, because in the end, it's the same complaints the "other team" would be spewing, only in reverse.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
First, cheap land destruction needs to go away and never come back. The single element that makes a game of Magic into a very un-fun non-game is mana screw, and somehow people argue that printing cheap land destruction is healthy for the game? If you want to play cards by yourself so badly, just play solitaire.
Hand destruction is doing just fine now. Instead of just reprinting Duress and Distress ad nauseum, they're creating new hand disruption cards like Lay Bare the Heart, which is actually very powerful since the cards that it can't hit can easily be killed with removal -- especially since they've scaled back on Hexproof so much thanks to players whining about creatures getting too strong.
And you're going to actually complain about taxes when they just reprinted Aven Mindcensor in a Standard legal set? Or printed Gideon's Intervention, the new Thalia, or Reduce // Rubble? If you think that taxes should be so strong that they deny the opponent the ability to do anything, you should, again, just be playing solitaire.
Same thing with counterspells and cheap removal. Disallow is arguably one of the strongest counters ever printed. They also just reprinted Essence Scatter. Commit // Memory is incredibly versatile on the front in being able to "counter" spells (even uncounterable ones), or remove any troublesome permanents except lands, and being an expensive Timetwister on the back end. Fatal Push may be the best cheap removal ever printed (aside, perhaps, from Swords to Plowshares).
And if you aren't playing with planeswalkers in your deck, you are missing out on a lot of fun. They are such a great addition to the game (and this is coming from someone who bought a pack of Revised as his first pack of Magic when the Revised box was sitting next to a box of Legends).
Agreed 100%. Bolt should never be in Standard again, nor should Counterspell. They would be format warping cards that would scare all but a select group of players away from the game.
Wizards is clearly trying to appease the majority of players with the recent changes they've made, and I can't tell if people are just ignoring this or are just looking for a reason to complain.
IE: Don't print a sorcery speed Heroes' Downfall into a format that is going to have Vehicles and one of the most powerful planeswalkers ever printed.
What did you think was going to happen there?
From what I can tell they thought it would produce a flying monopoly man with money bags going strait to their headquarters. "They" being either Hasbro or WoTC executives. I'm not completely convinced which group yet. Those communications meetings must be the thing of legends given how disconnected everyone would have to be over there to let all the problems we are seeing pass on through. I wrote a post over in another thread already stating that this is probably all the fault of marketing getting a bunch of sales metrics and not consulting the developers on the whole dropping core set reprints and putting them on an even tighter treadmill. Now they are "restructuring departments" and telling us that this is going to solve the issues.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm starting to think the only reason Mardu Vehicles is still even a contender is because folks keep overlooking these spells for their sideboards.
EDIT: Did some research, and I see that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is the real backbone of the Vehicles deck, being the one card in the deck that most Standard removal can't easily deal with. Time to Reflect will make an Esper Zombies deck more effective as blocking Gideon with a Zombie shouldn't be hard. Lost Legacy can exile all copies of Gideon from a deck. Anguished Unmaking is another cheap removal that works on either Gideon or Heart.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Only time Gideon, Ally of Zendikar isn't in top8 is when he wasn't supposed to be in Standard anymore? How not suspicious for a mythic rare in a large set that depicts their current main character.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Please get started. Those links got my heart all-a-flutter!
Want to give a source for this?
The first card is so specific that no one is going to use it unless it is required by the meta. The 2nd is amazing and that can't be argued. The 3rd on the other hand you act like that existed while Vehicle problems were everywhere. Deliverance has only been out a couple weeks, but before that getting rid of artifacts was a huge problem. Before Deliverance there was Fragmentize and....a bunch of expensive answers because for some reason WotC didn't want you being able to destroy artifacts, almost at all, even though they took over for months.
Which is weird because spells got worse while creatures stayed just as good, if not better, over time. So if creatures continued to get strong over time why didn't spells get better in turn? Titans and Baneslayer were answers to spells, but once spells got worse why did creatures need to stay just as good?
This is true.
No one is asking for pushed counterspells or removal, they are asking for those that are good enough.
It's not hypocrisy to see that one segment of the game isn't matching up and wanting that fixed. Doesn't matter if it is when creature or spells are too good.
While cheap land destruction is a problem having proper land destruction can be good for the game. Take Valakut for an example, if there wasn't Tectonic Edge Valakut would have been nigh unbeatable, even with Cawblade around. Having decent land destruction can help certain Standard seasons from having 4 or 5 color good stuff decks and punishes them for stretching themselves too thin.
I can agree that hand disruption is about right in Standard's current season, but I think it went from subpar to about perfect when Lay Bare the Heart came out, before that there was only one decent discard spell, but now there are two, which helps things immensely.
You realize they were able to reprint it because it does close to nothing right now, right? That card taxes what, Nissa's Renewal, Attune with Aether, Inventor's Fair, Evolving Wilds, and that's it? There's a reason why it isn't being played, because there is close to nothing to tax. Still a great reprint though.
That isn't a tax card.
Neither is either part of that.
It was also strong when Voidslime was printed, because they do the exact same thing and both are good, but saying "one of the strongest" is a bit of a stretch. One of the most versatile I'd say.
Essense Scatter is a great counterspell, in the right environments. It is a good addition here as Standard is so creature focused right now, but with Vehicles it isn't as great.
Commit // Memory is one that I'm surprised isn't played more, but just because it has Timetwister attached to it doesn't mean it is automatically amazing. Without a home to be played in the card just doesn't shine, although it does have some power behind it.
Fatal Push is certainly strong, one of the best removal spells in the game with such a low cost, but in Standard its full potential isn't always utilized. Outside of Standard the card is fantastic and one of the best additions the game has had, and it was a definite right step in the right direction for Standard, but to get Revolt going you are usually losing a card just to kill something else, and 2-for-1'ing yourself is never a great feeling.
There needs to be more power at common and uncommon rarity. New players like powerful spells, but cant access them if they are at mythic. The entire complexity of the game and the power level needs to be pushed up.
Also no more mechanics about those damn +1/+1 counters, which to me are the laziest mechanics, and often rank low in popularity (according to Rosewater's storm scale articles). Unleash, Outlast, Tribute, Bolster, Megamorph, Fabricate, Support, Renown. All forgotten mechanics. Amonkhet is the first set to not use them for anything in a long time, aside from minimal use in shadows over Innistrad.
Lightning Javelin reprint seems likely.
Oh yeah, wizards of the coast these days prints way underpowered cards for the sake of standard way too often and when they do print something strong its always at the mythic or rare unless it's one of the legendary "mistake" cards. Desolator magic thinks that standard is garbage from overpowered cards. He doesn't even know what the heck constitutes that because he has only been playing a short while. Oh well, here's hoping that wizards R&D remembers what good / exciting cards look like...
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Man, that would be a really awesome idea. If not in standard, than at least a supplemental set possibly too.
"Spell Masters" has a catchy name to it.
EDH DECKS
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Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
Thank god none of you are magic devs lol. If you don't realize how absolutely horrendous a set like that would be to play, lol?
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
@Manite: Your not wrong that it is possible to have environments too skewed towards answers. Also, bolt in standard was pretty limiting for creatures. That being said, I firmly believe that all viable threats should have viable answers in the same environment, at least for standard anyway. Doom blade, or a similar effect, feels like a largely necessary card to me.
I'm part of the "we need better counterspells crew," but for standard, that doesn't mean counterspell explicitly (for modern, however, it does). The best environments forced you to choose your threats acknowledging that you would see main-deck answers in a lot of decks. Most of the stuff you listed is side-board stuff at best. Narrow answers have a place, but some broad answers are necessary for balance. With good answers, the threat power level can be pretty high. Without it, you end up in problem town. Splinter twin existed in standard previously and was not a problem deck. The copycat thing was a problem because it was closer to putting splinter twin into homelands, where it was far and away the best thing. Do you really feel like having only planeswalker and creature centric decks makes for a fun environment?
Also, it seems as if future future league, which probably has a lot of people involved in the design/development of the cards they're testing, may be too preoccupied with what their cards are "supposed" to do, rather than what they can do. If the play design team has a lot of people on it who don't design cards themselves, they'll have fresh eyes when looking at a set, and may be able to more correctly evaluate cards and environments.
Thank you. That last comment about Lightning Bolt and Counterspell scaring away new players is so embarrassing, My nine year old will automatically reach for 4x Bolts when building a red deck because even his 9 year old brain can figure out that it's simple, fast, effective, and above all else, fun. That's not to say he can't play newer cards. He loves tutor, scry and cantrips because he realized, as soon as I played Demonic Tutor, that it let him digs for answers.
The cards he hates the most? Planeswalkers. Specifically the Emblems. Why? Once they hit, there's no answers for them. He thinks that Force of Will is a terrible card and Winter Orb is broken, and mana screw sucks but they all have answers one way or another. Emblems? His #1 hated feature because there are no answers.
So Lightning Bolt and Counterspell scaring away newer players? Cards printed since year dot and for years afterwards?? I call bullocks on that. Magic wouldn't have grown at all if those cards are so scary to new players.
I do recall mentioning that if is wasn't a standard set, then possibly a supplemental product of some sort. Not every single thing has to be for draft.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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