The game's economic resurgence happened when Lightning Bolt, Doom Blade, Ponder, Preordain and Mana Leak were all in Standard. The game's recent cooldown in popularity happened when the design and development mindset that these cards are "too strong for standard" was at it's peak.
Do you have a source for all of these claims?
-
general thoughts
To everyone saying 'why weren't they testing for competitive already?'. You may not have noticed, but they were. This is simply a new team created to focus on it. As to what exactly that means, how that will work, and what effects it will have- we really don't. We have very little information right now. Wait.
All I think is worth saying is that this is at least some kind of step in the right direction, at the very least, things are being done.
wasn't copy cat combo a know isue that they knew but left in the set anyways? I always had the impression that they knew it but did't predict that people would just made a ETB deck with the combo in it ( like, we got some pretty decent hate in amonkhet, a set that was alread in priting before the cat was spoiled )
"Well, uh, is this going to fix (completely unrelated problem with another format)???"
It's almost like standard sets are designed and tested for standard and not to magically patch up personal gripes.
"Testing cards more is bad! I like it when we just let mistakes happen that create oppressive decks which strangle a nearly 40% hold on the format and push out all other decks but one! That's REAL magic!"
I.... My fingers are pinching the bridge of my nose so hard right now... I'm really forced to assume half of the comments on this site are made just to be contrarian for the sake of it.
This just in: MTGS is upset because WOTC thinks it should test it's product more.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
wasn't copy cat combo a know isue that they knew but left in the set anyways? I always had the impression that they knew it but did't predict that people would just made a ETB deck with the combo in it ( like, we got some pretty decent hate in amonkhet, a set that was alread in priting before the cat was spoiled )
I find this odd, as first didn't they already have a small team of people doing this very same thing? Seems like now all they are doing is calling it a "department" and making some people's sole job being to test rather than everyone to test as they can.
Now I will say that it is good that they are at least trying to do something about recent monumental failures, between BFZ and now, but we won't truly see the effects of this new department until next next year, be it good or bad. Hopefully this department can suggest decent reprints that can fit Standard without breaking it and stop various problem cards, mechanics, or sets from becoming so bad that it runs amok in Standard, or other formats. If we do have another Eldrazi, vehicles with no answers or no answers in general, or Copycat levels of bad then this department would end up being a waste of money.
I'm not ready to talk ***** on this department yet, but when they do mess up I'll be there to do plenty of it.
But understand this is WotC actually hiring a brand new team of people. This is expensive. They are serious about it.
It might not be as expensive if they go through with firing Sam Stoddard and other items of dead weight on the Future Future League teams.
As I said, the mistake may have been a question about resources. WotC thinks so. Think about how many roles Development has. Not only should they take over the set design, they also have much more iteration to do, and their hands are tied to a certain extent due to design vision.
wasn't copy cat combo a know isue that they knew but left in the set anyways? I always had the impression that they knew it but did't predict that people would just made a ETB deck with the combo in it ( like, we got some pretty decent hate in amonkhet, a set that was alread in priting before the cat was spoiled )
Not to sure why you are surprised at this. It is pretty much the same thing that happened with Skullclamp. Development did not do enough testing with it to stop it being degenerate until after the full set got sent to print. But it got enough interest that it was put into the nuts and bolts theme deck. Skullclamp was even called out as one of the pieces of equipment that you should be looking to tutor out and get onto the battlefield as soon as possible
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Alright, everyone please cool down a bit. While criticism on WOTC or whatever is perfectly acceptable, please at least stay civilized in your arguments, and don't flame people who have a different point of view of yours.
Now, putting my mod hat off: We should also await the article about the team and it's workings that should come in June. We can get a general idea of what they'll be doing just going by Maro's tumblr post, but we won't know inner workings or such until that article.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Ok, so Wizards identifies a problem with Magic, is going to spend a lot of money to try and fix it, and people are complaining about that? Not too mention that at this point it isn't even clear how this new department is going function exactly, so people are basically complaining about the idea that Wizards is going to try and fix a problem with the game?
I only play Commander so I couldn't care less about the current standard, but I honestly don't understand the negativity in this thread.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
This is something that R&D has needed since way back in Urza Block, or if not that after the original Mirrodin block. If it works as advertised we shouldn't have to worry about format-dominating degenerate combos like CopyCat again...unless it's something that gets by BOTH areas...
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Lapsed DCI Rules Advisor - Retired from playing but still hanging around
Ok, so Wizards identifies a problem with Magic, is going to spend a lot of money to try and fix it, and people are complaining about that? Not too mention that at this point it isn't even clear how this new department is going function exactly, so people are basically complaining about the idea that Wizards is going to try and fix a problem with the game?
I only play Commander so I couldn't care less about the current standard, but I honestly don't understand the negativity in this thread.
People on this forum look for things to complain about. Your either find one or more pet topics to drag into every thread and beat over everyone else's head, or you complain about people who complain.
People on this forum look for things to complain about. Your either find one or more pet topics to drag into every thread and beat over everyone else's head, or you complain about people who complain.
If you'd actually read the thread instead of acting all smug and unironically hypocritical, you'd realize that many of the posters lack confidence in this new "department". There is already a "department", the Future Future League, that was supposed to stop these things, and they've failed miserably. I personally also lack faith in this department doing any good. When's the last time we even saw Melissa de Tora even playing at a high level, anyway?
People on this forum look for things to complain about. Your either find one or more pet topics to drag into every thread and beat over everyone else's head, or you complain about people who complain.
If you'd actually read the thread instead of acting all smug and unironically hypocritical, you'd realize that many of the posters lack confidence in this new "department". There is already a "department", the Future Future League, that was supposed to stop these things, and they've failed miserably. I personally also lack faith in this department doing any good. When's the last time we even saw Melissa de Tora even playing at a high level, anyway?
I was being facetious. Don't get your britches in a twist. Of course some of the complaints on this forum are perfectly valid. Just because I know that Magic has some very real problems it has to address doesn't mean I have to be all doom and gloom about it.
I'm a bit torn on this. These accidents make Magic interesting, but I understand that it makes standard uninteresting. No idea how this will affect the game, but I'm excited to find out!
It is not the department that is the issue. It is the philosophy.
Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, cheap removal and everything else the new players hate have been removed, leaving an anodyne mess of a game and a standard solved in seconds that can't shift once the best two or three creature/planeswalker decks have been esablished per set. Meanwhile those easily irritated new players and more casuals have just sodded off to the commander tables to feed the monster Wizards inadvertently legitimised. You don't need a new department to fix this, you need a new philosophy.
Maro has a philosophy and maxim for many things, he write about them all the time in his columns. Unfortunately his philosophy is "Gatewatch: the gathering" and "zoos are better than spells", both of which are unchallenged axioms that the current team cling to for dear life. Only when the fear of "unfun" changes will things get better.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
From what I understand, FFL (future Standard testing) was just one of many things Development did. Maybe what, 5%? If even that? And this announcement of the play experience whatever is more of a full-time / dedicated group for testing and environment shaping. Now they'll have a full team of people dedicated more or less full time to stress-testing the environment.
I think it's FANTASTIC. That's something I've been wondering for months .. How did they miss the Cat Lady combo? I figured it was because they just didn't make enough time to stress test via FFL, and this confirms it. I've felt for a while that they could use some more full-time dedication into playtesting, and this sounds like exactly that.
I love Standard as a format. It's the format that captures a lot of what I like best about Magic: the ability to build and play with exciting cards. Sure, Modern and Legacy are more powerful, but I get bored casting the same cards over and over, very quickly. Standard allows me to brew up something new, to play with fun new cards, and to test it in tournament play. Standard lately hasn't achieved any of those goals for me. Ironic for Kaladesh -- the creative inventor world, where anything can happen! .... as long as you invent copters or spaghetti monsters. I get why they "push" certain things, but when it turns into "These cards are for Constructed," and they make it so that you can't really play anything else and not just lose... I lose interest. I enjoy it when I can brew something up, take it to my LGS, and have some success with it after tweaking and testing against the metagame. It's the Timmy/Johnny/Spike trifecta in me.
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Level 2 Judge
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
So this will help the outrageous secondary market costs of modern format cards and the appearance of overpowered / severly underpowered cards in standard how? These issues have been going on well before the point any of the current cards came to print. Deathrite Shaman anyone?
You realize that they're not forming this department to fix your personal gripes about the game, right?
It's not so much about personal gripes as much as this feels like they took something they already had, now defined that thing officially under a specific name, and are saying this will solve the issues with new sets hitting the market and prevent things like DRS from getting printed. So I'll believe it when I see it is what I'm saying.
What is going to help them is taking their time developing the sets and fill the gaps with reprint products to buy that time. Maybe release a digital version first and balance cards online before hitting the printers? I'm just spitballing here, but the reason core sets were great is that they gave those developers a bit more time thanks to core sets not requiring a ton of new cards. Now with having to serve commander players and do unique products on top of developing standard sets they really have been pressing themselves thin.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It is not the department that is the issue. It is the philosophy.
Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, cheap removal and everything else the new players hate have been removed, leaving an anodyne mess of a game and a standard solved in seconds that can't shift once the best two or three creature/planeswalker decks have been esablished per set. Meanwhile those easily irritated new players and more casuals have just sodded off to the commander tables to feed the monster Wizards inadvertently legitimised. You don't need a new department to fix this, you need a new philosophy.
Maro has a philosophy and maxim for many things, he write about them all the time in his columns. Unfortunately his philosophy is "Gatewatch: the gathering" and "zoos are better than spells", both of which are unchallenged axioms that the current team cling to for dear life. Only when the fear of "unfun" changes will things get better.
I detect butthurt towards EDH. (this is not an invitation to spend an hour writing a book response, just poking back because I greatly enjoy EDH)
Don't write off WoTC yet, they are reading our feedback and being vocal about wanting to make changes, it's huge news. It's good news! Be happy long enough to write some more constructive criticism for WoTC
It is not the department that is the issue. It is the philosophy.
Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, cheap removal and everything else the new players hate have been removed, leaving an anodyne mess of a game and a standard solved in seconds that can't shift once the best two or three creature/planeswalker decks have been esablished per set. Meanwhile those easily irritated new players and more casuals have just sodded off to the commander tables to feed the monster Wizards inadvertently legitimised. You don't need a new department to fix this, you need a new philosophy.
Maro has a philosophy and maxim for many things, he write about them all the time in his columns. Unfortunately his philosophy is "Gatewatch: the gathering" and "zoos are better than spells", both of which are unchallenged axioms that the current team cling to for dear life. Only when the fear of "unfun" changes will things get better.
I detect butthurt towards EDH. (this is not an invitation to spend an hour writing a book response, just poking back because I greatly enjoy EDH)
Don't write off WoTC yet, they are reading our feedback and being vocal about wanting to make changes, it's huge news. It's good news! Be happy long enough to write some more constructive criticism for WoTC
No I like that it exists, just think that Wizards did not realise the impact it would have......
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
It is not the department that is the issue. It is the philosophy.
Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, cheap removal and everything else the new players hate have been removed, leaving an anodyne mess of a game and a standard solved in seconds that can't shift once the best two or three creature/planeswalker decks have been esablished per set. Meanwhile those easily irritated new players and more casuals have just sodded off to the commander tables to feed the monster Wizards inadvertently legitimised. You don't need a new department to fix this, you need a new philosophy.
Maro has a philosophy and maxim for many things, he write about them all the time in his columns. Unfortunately his philosophy is "Gatewatch: the gathering" and "zoos are better than spells", both of which are unchallenged axioms that the current team cling to for dear life. Only when the fear of "unfun" changes will things get better.
Totally agree it is a decade of this philoshophy that has gotten us here today unfortunately. Just look at which cards actually hold value. If the game were healthier the price disparity would be far less.
Direct quote from Maro:
"Several weeks ago, I said that we were taking steps to improve the processes behind the scenes in R&D to ensure that we don’t repeat some of our mistakes of the last year. I’m happy today to talk about one of these changes – the creation of a new group within R&D called Play Design."
It's like the scene from the Lost World Jurassic Park where John HAmmond and Ian Malcom are having a discussion and the following is said. I think it sums up this department creation very well:
(Maro) John Hammond: Don't worry, I'm not making the same mistakes again. (Players) Dr. Ian Malcolm: No, you're making all new ones.
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Trolling Magic since 2000.
I play Standard, EDH, and a very tiny bit of Modern.
Time will tell now if this really makes a difference. I don't hold out much hope or trust much of anything anybody at WotC says. I don't think Cat Combo was a mistake at all, or missed. I believe it was intentional. It helped push packs especially in concert with bans.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Interesting, but I'm a bit sceptic of how impactful this all will be. I think the game needs to shift back a bit to older days instead of just blaming it on mistakes á la copycat and copter.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I feel like we need the long awaited mirror of Legion, ie a set that only has spells, artifacts and lands. (and no "put a token in play spells thats a cop out) an entire set without a single point of power or toughness. Give us a standard with say a total of 10 creatur (or creature based like the token spells) are in print and thats it, thats including the limited fodder everything! everything else is fun enchantments, artifacts, instants, sorcery
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Do you have a source for all of these claims?
-
general thoughts
To everyone saying 'why weren't they testing for competitive already?'. You may not have noticed, but they were. This is simply a new team created to focus on it. As to what exactly that means, how that will work, and what effects it will have- we really don't. We have very little information right now. Wait.
All I think is worth saying is that this is at least some kind of step in the right direction, at the very least, things are being done.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
It's almost like standard sets are designed and tested for standard and not to magically patch up personal gripes.
"Testing cards more is bad! I like it when we just let mistakes happen that create oppressive decks which strangle a nearly 40% hold on the format and push out all other decks but one! That's REAL magic!"
I.... My fingers are pinching the bridge of my nose so hard right now... I'm really forced to assume half of the comments on this site are made just to be contrarian for the sake of it.
This just in: MTGS is upset because WOTC thinks it should test it's product more.
-Chandra Nalaar
Here can see where they claimed they missed the combo.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/m-files-aether-revolt-part-1-2017-02-03
Although, what I find funny is the promo of Saheeli's Artistry. Salheei appears to be riding a Felidar Guardian.
http://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/launch-party-and-release-event-promos/saheelis-artistry
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Now I will say that it is good that they are at least trying to do something about recent monumental failures, between BFZ and now, but we won't truly see the effects of this new department until next next year, be it good or bad. Hopefully this department can suggest decent reprints that can fit Standard without breaking it and stop various problem cards, mechanics, or sets from becoming so bad that it runs amok in Standard, or other formats. If we do have another Eldrazi, vehicles with no answers or no answers in general, or Copycat levels of bad then this department would end up being a waste of money.
I'm not ready to talk ***** on this department yet, but when they do mess up I'll be there to do plenty of it.
As I said, the mistake may have been a question about resources. WotC thinks so. Think about how many roles Development has. Not only should they take over the set design, they also have much more iteration to do, and their hands are tied to a certain extent due to design vision.
Not to sure why you are surprised at this. It is pretty much the same thing that happened with Skullclamp. Development did not do enough testing with it to stop it being degenerate until after the full set got sent to print. But it got enough interest that it was put into the nuts and bolts theme deck. Skullclamp was even called out as one of the pieces of equipment that you should be looking to tutor out and get onto the battlefield as soon as possible
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Now, putting my mod hat off: We should also await the article about the team and it's workings that should come in June. We can get a general idea of what they'll be doing just going by Maro's tumblr post, but we won't know inner workings or such until that article.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I only play Commander so I couldn't care less about the current standard, but I honestly don't understand the negativity in this thread.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
People on this forum look for things to complain about. Your either find one or more pet topics to drag into every thread and beat over everyone else's head, or you complain about people who complain.
If you'd actually read the thread instead of acting all smug and unironically hypocritical, you'd realize that many of the posters lack confidence in this new "department". There is already a "department", the Future Future League, that was supposed to stop these things, and they've failed miserably. I personally also lack faith in this department doing any good. When's the last time we even saw Melissa de Tora even playing at a high level, anyway?
I was being facetious. Don't get your britches in a twist. Of course some of the complaints on this forum are perfectly valid. Just because I know that Magic has some very real problems it has to address doesn't mean I have to be all doom and gloom about it.
Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures. Planeswalkers. Creatures.
Hand destruction, land destruction, counterspells, taxes, cheap removal and everything else the new players hate have been removed, leaving an anodyne mess of a game and a standard solved in seconds that can't shift once the best two or three creature/planeswalker decks have been esablished per set. Meanwhile those easily irritated new players and more casuals have just sodded off to the commander tables to feed the monster Wizards inadvertently legitimised. You don't need a new department to fix this, you need a new philosophy.
Maro has a philosophy and maxim for many things, he write about them all the time in his columns. Unfortunately his philosophy is "Gatewatch: the gathering" and "zoos are better than spells", both of which are unchallenged axioms that the current team cling to for dear life. Only when the fear of "unfun" changes will things get better.
I think it's FANTASTIC. That's something I've been wondering for months .. How did they miss the Cat Lady combo? I figured it was because they just didn't make enough time to stress test via FFL, and this confirms it. I've felt for a while that they could use some more full-time dedication into playtesting, and this sounds like exactly that.
I love Standard as a format. It's the format that captures a lot of what I like best about Magic: the ability to build and play with exciting cards. Sure, Modern and Legacy are more powerful, but I get bored casting the same cards over and over, very quickly. Standard allows me to brew up something new, to play with fun new cards, and to test it in tournament play. Standard lately hasn't achieved any of those goals for me. Ironic for Kaladesh -- the creative inventor world, where anything can happen! .... as long as you invent copters or spaghetti monsters. I get why they "push" certain things, but when it turns into "These cards are for Constructed," and they make it so that you can't really play anything else and not just lose... I lose interest. I enjoy it when I can brew something up, take it to my LGS, and have some success with it after tweaking and testing against the metagame. It's the Timmy/Johnny/Spike trifecta in me.
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
It's not so much about personal gripes as much as this feels like they took something they already had, now defined that thing officially under a specific name, and are saying this will solve the issues with new sets hitting the market and prevent things like DRS from getting printed. So I'll believe it when I see it is what I'm saying.
What is going to help them is taking their time developing the sets and fill the gaps with reprint products to buy that time. Maybe release a digital version first and balance cards online before hitting the printers? I'm just spitballing here, but the reason core sets were great is that they gave those developers a bit more time thanks to core sets not requiring a ton of new cards. Now with having to serve commander players and do unique products on top of developing standard sets they really have been pressing themselves thin.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I detect butthurt towards EDH. (this is not an invitation to spend an hour writing a book response, just poking back because I greatly enjoy EDH)
Don't write off WoTC yet, they are reading our feedback and being vocal about wanting to make changes, it's huge news. It's good news! Be happy long enough to write some more constructive criticism for WoTC
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
"QUICK,
PETERDILBERT PRINCIPLE ALL THESE PEOPLE INTO AN ENTIRELY NEW DEPARTMENT! We'll just tell the players it's for 'more testing'"No I like that it exists, just think that Wizards did not realise the impact it would have......
Totally agree it is a decade of this philoshophy that has gotten us here today unfortunately. Just look at which cards actually hold value. If the game were healthier the price disparity would be far less.
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
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For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
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For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
"Several weeks ago, I said that we were taking steps to improve the processes behind the scenes in R&D to ensure that we don’t repeat some of our mistakes of the last year. I’m happy today to talk about one of these changes – the creation of a new group within R&D called Play Design."
It's like the scene from the Lost World Jurassic Park where John HAmmond and Ian Malcom are having a discussion and the following is said. I think it sums up this department creation very well:
(Maro) John Hammond: Don't worry, I'm not making the same mistakes again.
(Players) Dr. Ian Malcolm: No, you're making all new ones.
I play Standard, EDH, and a very tiny bit of Modern.
My youtube channel, I upload gaming related videos and other videos.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.