Most reputable online retailers will refund your purchase of cards banned within 30 days of the purchase (or orders placed as a result of the non-bannings if you bought an entire deck). Is it a hassle that shouldn't have occurred? Yeah, probably. At least players aren't completely left out in the weeds.
Will retailers refund purchases of Saheli when it was Felidar that was banned?
I almost wish they just unbanned Emrakul and Reflector Mage
You're my new best friend.
I swear, every time they ban something in whichever format, I'm almost always left confused and wondering why they can't open up an equally strong previously banned option for another color to balance the power in the format by raising it overall instead of always lowering it. Realistically, couldn't they have just unbanned say ponder or preordain in modern instead of banning pod, bbe, dts, or twin? dts was the perfect card to keep opposing goyfs in check which everyone agrees is overpowered in virtually every green deck. I get why decks like eggs get banned as do cards like sfm and jtms, but do we really need several cards in standard now, especially when they rotate out and new cards to compete against them rotate in so regularly, even quicker for some sets than previously? Maybe I'm just getting old or being nostalgic, but Magic, especially standard surely ain't what it used to be.
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
I think a clear majority, if not the vast majority of standard players wanted the ban. People yelling at wizards now are either angry players who always like to yell at wotc, and ban-supporters still upset they didn't ban a couple days ago even though they are now presumably happy with the ban.
So there was nothing wrong with them waiting two days after the scheduled announcement to ban the card?
You would be ok with them setting a precedent where standard cards can be banned or unbanned at any point in the season?
No one has even addressed the fact that with only two days of the new set, many players on MTGO aren't going to have all the cards from the new set. They aren't going to want to try something new for an event.... not with money on the line. Of course people are going to play something established and available and are going to win with it at a high percentage.
The more I put thought into the situation, the more it seems like a joke.
This is an emergency ban. Its not a precedent, this is a moment in Magic history that happens maybe a couple times a decade.
They made a mistake, and inexplicably made a far worse one when they didn't ban the card in 2 scheduled opportunities. I wish they would have realized this was needed before today, but once they finally decided they made a terrible mistake that warped the format and would hurt their business, they have to be able to play their "oops, we F'd up, sorry" card a couple times a decade.
All these alternatives and in the end THIS is how the chose to handle it.
*with one alternative
And even three alternatives hardly seems like 'all these alternatives'.
But yes, they could have done this better- by simply banning the card on the announcement day. This decision is basically an admission of that.
I could list *more* alternatives. The problem is that suggestions that I may make will come under more scrutiny than what Wizards chooses to do. And rightly so? I'm an individual and they are the company. But, the problem I have is when we give them a free pass too many times and dismiss the critics of their actions as simply people whining.
There are a TON of alternatives.
Restrict the Cat
Ban the Planeswalker
Reduce your lead time for sets (so you can print things you need)
Anticipate possible problems and give your set a flex slot in the event something needs to be printed to solve a problem.
Make an Announcement that the Cat will be banned IN THE FUTURE (look guys, we messed up, but we honor your purchases and plans. Play with the combo for a month, but after that it's gone)
Wait for more than two days worth of data (if it's truly oppressive, let us see a week or two of data, instead of JUST two days. Even if they make the same decision, it would sound more "scientific")
The reason they needed to get rid of this combo in standard, is the same reason they need to be more consistent with their decision making. It costs them players.
They succeeded in banning the card, but they also made a poor decision in how they did it, as well as the explanation for it. They are still losing players.
Wait, they actually included pizza as a reason, albeit jokingly? For a problem this huge?
Wizards pls
I thought it was a nice touch. This was an embarassing public mea culpa with all the seriousness that is possible in a trading card game. Breaking up the tension with a self-deprecating joke in the announcement was fine.
Wait, they actually included pizza as a reason, albeit jokingly? For a problem this huge?
Wizards pls
I thought it was a nice touch. This was an embarassing public mea culpa with all the seriousness that is possible in a trading card game. Breaking up the tension with a self-deprecating joke in the announcement was fine.
I'd laugh more if it wasn't so stupid and plainly offensive to the Standard community. (the negligence, not necessarily the pizza)
And for reference, I haven't played Standard since RTR.
When the majority of pros are saying in chorus with huge part of the players : "That ***** is too strong, unfun and should be banned so we can at least have 3 decks in tier 1" and wizards think it is FINE, we have a really big problem of:
A) They lost all touch with the game and are way more preoccupied with social media.
B) The designers they hired think this is a online game that can be patched with no repercussions ($$).
C) They are being greedy and aren't hiring people to playtest sets.
I guess the answer is all of the above, most prominent is C, see the CRAP printing for the new sets. I used to collect misprint/miscut cards but now misprint are really common. Remembers me of arabian nights printing. Add up to that the box mapping form eldritch moon. I guess they didn't want to pay the algorithm that was used to randomize the cards. Add up to that (getting tired....) the boosters search from MM that had the brilliant idea to use glued paper, a problem that was solved after fallen empires.
Wizards isn't making honest mistakes. You can't call a honests mistakes all that problems that are happening because they aren't allocating resources. This ***** isn't acceptable from a company that is making the same thing over 20 years.
It creates a precedent because the last emergency ban was BEFORE a card was released. Memory jar got removed before it hit anyone. Banning a card out of season because it was a brain fart (really, 2 days amokhet % is okay to ban but all the statistics before that are irrelevant?)
We just saw a ban in legacy of a card that literally destroys a whole deck, a pretty expensive one. After four years. There was no new card interaction that made it broke. In modern they banned golgari grave troll because of other cards, but the deck still is online. Infect? Still works after gitaxian probe, banned because it was too fast.
Miracles four years later: "Well... it is... herm... slow? Yeah, we banned it in extended because it is WAAAYYYY slow. WE totally said it is because of dominance but yeah slow. And that upsets players. Next banlist we will hit : Land destruction, discard, infect, any kind of lock, because it upset the players. We are changing the card layouts and the new creatures are compatible with pokemon cards".
Btw, I own just one saheli. The felidar ban means nothing to me cash wise. I just can't stand a company treating their player base like *****.
Don't like the timing of the announcement.
Also, why don't they reprint more standard cards in supplementary products? Maybe it could get standard interest/attendance up
All these alternatives and in the end THIS is how the chose to handle it.
*with one alternative
And even three alternatives hardly seems like 'all these alternatives'.
But yes, they could have done this better- by simply banning the card on the announcement day. This decision is basically an admission of that.
I could list *more* alternatives. The problem is that suggestions that I may make will come under more scrutiny than what Wizards chooses to do. And rightly so? I'm an individual and they are the company. But, the problem I have is when we give them a free pass too many times and dismiss the critics of their actions as simply people whining.
This forum is under no danger of criticism being suppressed. There's a LOT of it, all the time.
There are a TON of alternatives.
Restrict the Cat
They don't do restrictions in standard (and other formats), and for good reason- it increases game variance in a bad way.
Ban the Planeswalker
Why would they ban Saheeli instead?
Reduce your lead time for sets (so you can print things you need)
Lead time exist for a reason. You can't just reduce it because you want to.
Anticipate possible problems and give your set a flex slot in the event something needs to be printed to solve a problem.
I'm pretty sure a 'flex slot' is not something that could ever be done. Things need to be locked in to go through multiple stages and multiple different groups.
Make an Announcement that the Cat will be banned IN THE FUTURE (look guys, we messed up, but we honor your purchases and plans. Play with the combo for a month, but after that it's gone)
It would make more sense for them to have put a special warning in the previous announcement that they will be considering emergency bans or something. They want this combo out of the way now, and it should be, because it's had it's time and it's hurting the format.
Wait for more than two days worth of data (if it's truly oppressive, let us see a week or two of data, instead of JUST two days. Even if they make the same decision, it would sound more "scientific")
They wouldn't have done this if not for the public outcry. The data was just confirming what everybody suspected would be true- including quite likely, Wizards.
The reason they needed to get rid of this combo in standard, is the same reason they need to be more consistent with their decision making. It costs them players.
There was no easy solution to this problem. Banning it earlier and stop a potentially interesting and fun deck from seeing play and upset early investors, banning it later would leave the pro tour vulnerable to a degenerate playing field and spoil the event.
I reckon it may have been best to have just banned it earlier, but I definitely think this is better than waiting. New cards deserve a time in the spotlight and they were at risk of losing it to an oppressive combo deck. Vehicles, and GB secondarily, are already strong decks to carry on over.
They succeeded in banning the card, but they also made a poor decision in how they did it, as well as the explanation for it. They are still losing players.
They were fairly open in saying the public response was a significant factor. And there will be more statements on this to come- I guarantee it.
In fact, I expect we will be hearing a lot about standard balance in the next year, and this may be the start of some more changes like the additional announcement dates we have already seen.
I also suspect the combo theme of Kaladesh block will be seen as somewhat of a mistake. I am pretty sure that this notion of allowing an unusual amount of combo cards in was a large factor in Copycat being missed.
Maybe they should sacrifice some of this theoretical quality in favor of shorter lead times to respond to what Standard needs.
You're a funny guy. Unless you're serious, in which case three's just no helping you.
I'm assuming there's just no helping me. But seriously, they didn't used to have such incredibly long lead times. Was Standard good back then? Yes. Is Standard good now (with long lead times)? No.
Ergo, it's not so unreasonable to think that maybe long lead times aren't required to create quality sets, and that more flexibility would be useful in making course corrections.
Most reputable online retailers will refund your purchase of cards banned within 30 days of the purchase (or orders placed as a result of the non-bannings if you bought an entire deck). Is it a hassle that shouldn't have occurred? Yeah, probably. At least players aren't completely left out in the weeds.
Will retailers refund purchases of Saheli when it was Felidar that was banned?
My local store is. They just posted on FB that they'll refund her since she was only played with the combo.
It's funny, the claim they work 2 years or so in the future because this lead time is needed to maintain quality.
Guess what, this quality has been notably absent for a long time.
Maybe they should sacrifice some of this theoretical quality in favor of shorter lead times to respond to what Standard needs.
That might sound good, but Battle for Zendikar is a good look of what sets would become, due to the effects of the timing with the two set paradigm and rotation change.
As far as I am concerned there are three things-
1. Felidar Guardian should probably have been banned around Aether Revolt
2. Development probably needs more people
3. Kaladesh block's combo card theme may have been a mistake
Miracles four years later: "Well... it is... herm... slow? Yeah, we banned it in extended because it is WAAAYYYY slow. WE totally said it is because of dominance but yeah slow.
While I, too, was initially against a Miracles ban (as an ANT player), I really hate to say that you're wrong. I hated playing against Miracles, and I didn't find it oppressive, but I was proven wrong.
Looking back I find it strange that they were even on the fence about banning it. They already admitted it was a mistake, they said they missed it, they said 2 card combos/t4 kills shouldn't exist in standard, so it should have been a no brainer. There shouldn't have been a debate to begin with they should have banned it the second they realized Splinter Twin was in standard.
So I know they won't, but it occurs to me that Wizards should refund all purchases of Saheeli that can be proven between the official announcement and this garbage. 100% sure that people were putting it off until Monday and it was safe
There's no way that could ever logistically happen even if it was in WotC's interest excluding such problems.
I acknowledged that it would never happen in my post. The logistics would be fairly simple, if daunting in scale, people would submit a time stamped (such as ebay purchase confirmation) order and be compensated to the amount that they paid. As I understand it, Wizards already has a similar policy if you can prove your pack had no rare. Not many people would bother with that, but a playset of Saheeli would be more than a pack obviously. I just feel that its cheating and theft to do what they did, and if someone were to be so inclined, a lawsuit on those grounds would have at least as much ground to stand on (imho quite a bit more) than any Reserved list violation suits. In the absence of any new ruined events or statistically relevant data, Wizards could not justify an emergency ban. I'm not advocating it because again the hassle would be extreme for a small reward, but I fail to see how this does not amount to theft, although only for those couple dozen hours.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
I want to not have my ******* deck banned two days before an SCG Open after being told at the normal B&R update two days ago that it wasn't being banned.
The
Necromancer (or Noob)
Cat.
Don't ask, I don't know why ether...
Will retailers refund purchases of Saheli when it was Felidar that was banned?
You're my new best friend.
I swear, every time they ban something in whichever format, I'm almost always left confused and wondering why they can't open up an equally strong previously banned option for another color to balance the power in the format by raising it overall instead of always lowering it. Realistically, couldn't they have just unbanned say ponder or preordain in modern instead of banning pod, bbe, dts, or twin? dts was the perfect card to keep opposing goyfs in check which everyone agrees is overpowered in virtually every green deck. I get why decks like eggs get banned as do cards like sfm and jtms, but do we really need several cards in standard now, especially when they rotate out and new cards to compete against them rotate in so regularly, even quicker for some sets than previously? Maybe I'm just getting old or being nostalgic, but Magic, especially standard surely ain't what it used to be.
Oh yeah , we forgot Gideon. He is banned too. Yada yada MOL %.
4 days later:
Sorry guys, Heart of kiran is strong too. Yada yada mol %.
This is an emergency ban. Its not a precedent, this is a moment in Magic history that happens maybe a couple times a decade.
They made a mistake, and inexplicably made a far worse one when they didn't ban the card in 2 scheduled opportunities. I wish they would have realized this was needed before today, but once they finally decided they made a terrible mistake that warped the format and would hurt their business, they have to be able to play their "oops, we F'd up, sorry" card a couple times a decade.
I could list *more* alternatives. The problem is that suggestions that I may make will come under more scrutiny than what Wizards chooses to do. And rightly so? I'm an individual and they are the company. But, the problem I have is when we give them a free pass too many times and dismiss the critics of their actions as simply people whining.
There are a TON of alternatives.
Restrict the Cat
Ban the Planeswalker
Reduce your lead time for sets (so you can print things you need)
Anticipate possible problems and give your set a flex slot in the event something needs to be printed to solve a problem.
Make an Announcement that the Cat will be banned IN THE FUTURE (look guys, we messed up, but we honor your purchases and plans. Play with the combo for a month, but after that it's gone)
Wait for more than two days worth of data (if it's truly oppressive, let us see a week or two of data, instead of JUST two days. Even if they make the same decision, it would sound more "scientific")
The reason they needed to get rid of this combo in standard, is the same reason they need to be more consistent with their decision making. It costs them players.
They succeeded in banning the card, but they also made a poor decision in how they did it, as well as the explanation for it. They are still losing players.
Wizards pls
Guess what, this quality has been notably absent for a long time.
Maybe they should sacrifice some of this theoretical quality in favor of shorter lead times to respond to what Standard needs.
I thought it was a nice touch. This was an embarassing public mea culpa with all the seriousness that is possible in a trading card game. Breaking up the tension with a self-deprecating joke in the announcement was fine.
Yeah isn't that funny? It's almost as if they, y'know....
neither knew nor cared!
But that's ridiculous, that can't be the case!
And THEN they ignored it after release.
I'd laugh more if it wasn't so stupid and plainly offensive to the Standard community. (the negligence, not necessarily the pizza)
And for reference, I haven't played Standard since RTR.
I've been pretty forgiving of wizards in this thread, but yeah I'm surprised by this.
Any time, ANY TIME, there is a "copy something" effect on a permanent, one of the things I think is "can this be broken in the format?"
You're a funny guy. Unless you're serious, in which case three's just no helping you.
A) They lost all touch with the game and are way more preoccupied with social media.
B) The designers they hired think this is a online game that can be patched with no repercussions ($$).
C) They are being greedy and aren't hiring people to playtest sets.
I guess the answer is all of the above, most prominent is C, see the CRAP printing for the new sets. I used to collect misprint/miscut cards but now misprint are really common. Remembers me of arabian nights printing. Add up to that the box mapping form eldritch moon. I guess they didn't want to pay the algorithm that was used to randomize the cards. Add up to that (getting tired....) the boosters search from MM that had the brilliant idea to use glued paper, a problem that was solved after fallen empires.
Wizards isn't making honest mistakes. You can't call a honests mistakes all that problems that are happening because they aren't allocating resources. This ***** isn't acceptable from a company that is making the same thing over 20 years.
It creates a precedent because the last emergency ban was BEFORE a card was released. Memory jar got removed before it hit anyone. Banning a card out of season because it was a brain fart (really, 2 days amokhet % is okay to ban but all the statistics before that are irrelevant?)
We just saw a ban in legacy of a card that literally destroys a whole deck, a pretty expensive one. After four years. There was no new card interaction that made it broke. In modern they banned golgari grave troll because of other cards, but the deck still is online. Infect? Still works after gitaxian probe, banned because it was too fast.
Miracles four years later: "Well... it is... herm... slow? Yeah, we banned it in extended because it is WAAAYYYY slow. WE totally said it is because of dominance but yeah slow. And that upsets players. Next banlist we will hit : Land destruction, discard, infect, any kind of lock, because it upset the players. We are changing the card layouts and the new creatures are compatible with pokemon cards".
Btw, I own just one saheli. The felidar ban means nothing to me cash wise. I just can't stand a company treating their player base like *****.
Also, why don't they reprint more standard cards in supplementary products? Maybe it could get standard interest/attendance up
This forum is under no danger of criticism being suppressed. There's a LOT of it, all the time.
They don't do restrictions in standard (and other formats), and for good reason- it increases game variance in a bad way.
Why would they ban Saheeli instead?
Lead time exist for a reason. You can't just reduce it because you want to.
I'm pretty sure a 'flex slot' is not something that could ever be done. Things need to be locked in to go through multiple stages and multiple different groups.
It would make more sense for them to have put a special warning in the previous announcement that they will be considering emergency bans or something. They want this combo out of the way now, and it should be, because it's had it's time and it's hurting the format.
They wouldn't have done this if not for the public outcry. The data was just confirming what everybody suspected would be true- including quite likely, Wizards.
There was no easy solution to this problem. Banning it earlier and stop a potentially interesting and fun deck from seeing play and upset early investors, banning it later would leave the pro tour vulnerable to a degenerate playing field and spoil the event.
I reckon it may have been best to have just banned it earlier, but I definitely think this is better than waiting. New cards deserve a time in the spotlight and they were at risk of losing it to an oppressive combo deck. Vehicles, and GB secondarily, are already strong decks to carry on over.
They were fairly open in saying the public response was a significant factor. And there will be more statements on this to come- I guarantee it.
In fact, I expect we will be hearing a lot about standard balance in the next year, and this may be the start of some more changes like the additional announcement dates we have already seen.
I also suspect the combo theme of Kaladesh block will be seen as somewhat of a mistake. I am pretty sure that this notion of allowing an unusual amount of combo cards in was a large factor in Copycat being missed.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I'm assuming there's just no helping me. But seriously, they didn't used to have such incredibly long lead times. Was Standard good back then? Yes. Is Standard good now (with long lead times)? No.
Ergo, it's not so unreasonable to think that maybe long lead times aren't required to create quality sets, and that more flexibility would be useful in making course corrections.
My local store is. They just posted on FB that they'll refund her since she was only played with the combo.
That might sound good, but Battle for Zendikar is a good look of what sets would become, due to the effects of the timing with the two set paradigm and rotation change.
As far as I am concerned there are three things-
1. Felidar Guardian should probably have been banned around Aether Revolt
2. Development probably needs more people
3. Kaladesh block's combo card theme may have been a mistake
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
While I, too, was initially against a Miracles ban (as an ANT player), I really hate to say that you're wrong. I hated playing against Miracles, and I didn't find it oppressive, but I was proven wrong.
It was.
Sounds like you got a good store!
I acknowledged that it would never happen in my post. The logistics would be fairly simple, if daunting in scale, people would submit a time stamped (such as ebay purchase confirmation) order and be compensated to the amount that they paid. As I understand it, Wizards already has a similar policy if you can prove your pack had no rare. Not many people would bother with that, but a playset of Saheeli would be more than a pack obviously. I just feel that its cheating and theft to do what they did, and if someone were to be so inclined, a lawsuit on those grounds would have at least as much ground to stand on (imho quite a bit more) than any Reserved list violation suits. In the absence of any new ruined events or statistically relevant data, Wizards could not justify an emergency ban. I'm not advocating it because again the hassle would be extreme for a small reward, but I fail to see how this does not amount to theft, although only for those couple dozen hours.
I want to not have my ******* deck banned two days before an SCG Open after being told at the normal B&R update two days ago that it wasn't being banned.
What the hell is wrong with that?
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
In the end, that's all we can hope for.