It's no way to run a game, and as standard goes so does OP as a whole.
What does OP have to do with Standard?
I assume he means Organised Play.
We are living in acronym abbreviation hell right now.
To stay on topic, I expected the ban sooner or later, but I'm not to thrilled for it. Not until Gideon, Value of Zendikar leaves the format this fall, at least. This does, however, affect how standard will look post-rotation, so thumbs up for that.
Wizards is looking as incompetent as ever. It may have needed the banning, but to cite a few days worth of leagues on MtGO is a joke and a straight up lie to consumers.
I wonder if 4 blocks in standard might just lead to more bans then we're used to.
I know that the number of SETS is the same, but it's 4 different themes/mechanical explorations compared to only two. That's just more possibility for missed broken overlaps, even if the raw number of cards is the same.
Oh wait Copy-cat was in a single large set nevermind.
Post rotation , Standard could be very diverse.
Maybe a mixture of 4c w/out combo, vehicles, zombies, counters ramp stompy, graveyard matters, dynavolt, control and others.
This at least allows for a go wide exploration of decks and see what shakes out.
All in all positive.
Total ignorant side question on my part: Can cards be restricted in Standard?
We are banning dirty kitty because of data...
but we shouldn't have printed it in the first place. (then why didn't you ban it at the 2 previous opportunities??????????)
We will make excuses before the whole community tears us to pieces in the street...
We have no idea what we're doing...
I'm honestly wondering if they (or more accurately, the Hasbro overlords) believe that the state of Standard and the lack of reasons to play anything other than Cats or Cars was affecting the sales of Amonkhet. Not saying that Hasbro knows anything about healthy Standard formats, but if they see a dip in sales they're gonna want to know why and what needs to be done.
What do you mean you people? I never had a problem with them NOT banning that card. Wizards decision making is just inept; They could have banned the card on a scheduled day. They could have printed cards to answer the combo. They also could have chosen to not let the combo slip through the cracks.
All these alternatives and in the end THIS is how the chose to handle it.
What do you mean you people? I never had a problem with them NOT banning that card. Wizards decision making is just inept; They could have banned the card on a scheduled day. They could have printed cards to answer the combo. They also could have chosen to not let the combo slip through the cracks.
All these alternatives and in the end THIS is how the chose to handle it.
That is why I stated I have lost confidence.
Obviously they're incapable of inserting a few Amonkhet cards into combo and testing it against... well anything.
I've also completely lost confidence in these guys and whoever is in charge of balance should get canned immediately.
Just look at the ineptitude of the statement! 'We used data to make the decision instead of common sense' and in the same statement, 'we never should have printed it in the first place'... but we tried really hard to not do anything in the face of public failure.
Where is Shane McMahon to come and fix the family business.
This is embarrassing.
We should start a list of screw ups:
1) removal of the ptq system
2) removal of the modern pro tour
3) announce dumb pro tour prizing changes
4) change standard rotation to two blocks
5) bad standard format requiring many bans to attempt a fix
6) give all grand prix's to one store
7) change the rptq system again
What's next?
I hope by internal changes they mean personnel related. I'm sure the CEO thinks hey are doing a good job. /sarcasm
What's the point of having a timeline if you aren't going to stick to it?
Emergency bans are (rightfully) very, very rare. Isn't this only the 3rd or 4th emergency ban ever, I think?
Anyway, they made a disastrously bad decision with the no-ban, quickly realized it, and they have to be able to break the glass and pull the emergency ban lever when they have to.
I think a clear majority, if not the vast majority of standard players wanted the ban. People yelling at wizards now are either angry players who always like to yell at wotc, and ban-supporters still upset they didn't ban a couple days ago even though they are now presumably happy with the ban.
So glad I stopped playing standard a few years ago. Watching the bannings happen is a joke. I understand that they don't know the power of cards with their interactions in older formats but there is zero excuse for a card ever being printed that needs to be banned in standard.
They say they missed the interaction completely ok sure mistakes happen though clearly they need new people working there if they missed an obvious turn 4 2 card combo. But then to not fix this mistake in the last bannings was unforgivable. Then they don't ban it on Monday at which point no doubt people who thought it would get banned decided to buy into the deck. Then they effectively emergency ban it 2 days later because 2 days of data apparently changed everything...
Pathetic.
The sad thing is I don't think it will be the last ban in standard. When reflector mage got hit just because the deck was too strong (even though the card itself is in no way overpowered) shows to me that if a deck is dominating too much any card can go even if it's not broken in of itself.
What do you mean you people? I never had a problem with them NOT banning that card. Wizards decision making is just inept; They could have banned the card on a scheduled day.
Agree here. They should have done this.
They could have printed cards to answer the combo.
No, they couldn't have. They only really found out about it when Aether Revolt released, which was not long enough in the past for them to have changed anything in Amonkhet.
They also could have chosen to not let the combo slip through the cracks.
They did not choose to let the combo slip through the cracks. Obviously, if they could have simply chosen to fix it they would have, they've said as much, but they did not notice the problem in time- the way you are putting it makes it out like they knew but just didn't care.
You can't fix a problem but never making the mistake that created it in the first place- otherwise there wouldn't be a problem to fix.
All these alternatives and in the end THIS is how the chose to handle it.
*with one alternative
And even three alternatives hardly seems like 'all these alternatives'.
But yes, they could have done this better- by simply banning the card on the announcement day. This decision is basically an admission of that.
So I know they won't, but it occurs to me that Wizards should refund all purchases of Saheeli that can be proven between the official announcement and this garbage. 100% sure that people were putting it off until Monday and it was safe
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I think a clear majority, if not the vast majority of standard players wanted the ban. People yelling at wizards now are either angry players who always like to yell at wotc, and ban-supporters still upset they didn't ban a couple days ago even though they are now presumably happy with the ban.
So there was nothing wrong with them waiting two days after the scheduled announcement to ban the card?
You would be ok with them setting a precedent where standard cards can be banned or unbanned at any point in the season?
No one has even addressed the fact that with only two days of the new set, many players on MTGO aren't going to have all the cards from the new set. They aren't going to want to try something new for an event.... not with money on the line. Of course people are going to play something established and available and are going to win with it at a high percentage.
The more I put thought into the situation, the more it seems like a joke.
Where is Shane McMahon to come and fix the family business.
This is embarrassing.
We should start a list of screw ups:
1) removal of the ptq system
2) removal of the modern pro tour
3) announce dumb pro tour prizing changes
4) change standard rotation to two blocks
5) bad standard format requiring many bans to attempt a fix
6) give all grand prix's to one store
7) change the rptq system again
What's next?
I hope by internal changes they mean personnel related. I'm sure the CEO thinks hey are doing a good job. /sarcasm
!punt
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So I know they won't, but it occurs to me that Wizards should refund all purchases of Saheeli that can be proven between the official announcement and this garbage. 100% sure that people were putting it off until Monday and it was safe
There's no way that could ever logistically happen even if it was in WotC's interest excluding such problems.
Proof that enough vitriol is enough to change Wizards' minds. They may cite data but I'm positive the massive negativity surrounding their inaction had its fair share of influence.
I agree, but let's be real: this is the closest thing to proof that their data is flawed, biased, and/or simply wrong.
I have no qualms with Felidar Guardian being banned. CopyCat was a degenerate combo that led to Standard being essentially a two-deck format, since Mardu Vehicles was the only deck that could really hope to compete with it. My issue with the ban is the timing. Why exactly was it not banned on Monday, or even back in March? It was obviously a problem from the beginning, and yet Wizards failed to take action until people spoke out. In particular, delaying the ban by a couple days screws over people who saw that Guardian wasn't banned on Monday and decided to go in on the deck, figuring they would get seven weeks with it at the very least.
It was a good move, but the timing couldn't have been worse.
Most reputable online retailers will refund your purchase of cards banned within 30 days of the purchase (or orders placed as a result of the non-bannings if you bought an entire deck). Is it a hassle that shouldn't have occurred? Yeah, probably. At least players aren't completely left out in the weeds.
Call me skeptical, but that MTGO data doesn't seem reliable in any way, the meta very, very seldom bandwagons a new potential deck when a new set / rotation / banning happens, they bandwagon old staple decks first. Just look at Modern, when people are unsure they hop back to the favorites, this banning is like telling me they're banning Goblin Guide in Modern a few days afterwards because 40% of people played burn for a few days after a shake-up happened. Yes, I know the formats are vastly different, but when you tell me "I need more data" on Monday and tell me "I have enough data from MTGO" 3 days later, I'm not buying it regardless of format.
Actually I'm way more annoyed by their decision flip-flops than the ban or lack of ban itself. If you wanted to listen to the community outright, the ban would have happened on Monday latest. If you wanted real data on post-Amonkhet Standard with the combo, then it would have needed to wait until after the Pro-Tour. Yes it would have drawn the ire of Standard players, but at least you kept your word on wanting data (as much as all of us are skeptical of it ourselves). This half-baked decision doesn't to have any support at all - the data is insufficient in terms of length of time and what made these 3 days of complaining any different from the last few months' worth?
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acronymabbreviation hell right now.To stay on topic, I expected the ban sooner or later, but I'm not to thrilled for it. Not until Gideon, Value of Zendikar leaves the format this fall, at least. This does, however, affect how standard will look post-rotation, so thumbs up for that.
I know that the number of SETS is the same, but it's 4 different themes/mechanical explorations compared to only two. That's just more possibility for missed broken overlaps, even if the raw number of cards is the same.
Oh wait Copy-cat was in a single large set nevermind.
Maybe a mixture of 4c w/out combo, vehicles, zombies, counters ramp stompy, graveyard matters, dynavolt, control and others.
This at least allows for a go wide exploration of decks and see what shakes out.
All in all positive.
Total ignorant side question on my part: Can cards be restricted in Standard?
You people: I've lost all confidence in Wizards
Wizards: *bans Felidar Guardian*
You people: I've lost all confidence in Wizards
What do you want?
-Chandra Nalaar
but we shouldn't have printed it in the first place. (then why didn't you ban it at the 2 previous opportunities??????????)
We will make excuses before the whole community tears us to pieces in the street...
We have no idea what we're doing...
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/pro-tour-copycat/
Totally
accurate.
What do you mean you people? I never had a problem with them NOT banning that card. Wizards decision making is just inept; They could have banned the card on a scheduled day. They could have printed cards to answer the combo. They also could have chosen to not let the combo slip through the cracks.
All these alternatives and in the end THIS is how the chose to handle it.
That is why I stated I have lost confidence.
Obviously they're incapable of inserting a few Amonkhet cards into combo and testing it against... well anything.
I've also completely lost confidence in these guys and whoever is in charge of balance should get canned immediately.
Just look at the ineptitude of the statement! 'We used data to make the decision instead of common sense' and in the same statement, 'we never should have printed it in the first place'... but we tried really hard to not do anything in the face of public failure.
In-
comp-
etence
This is embarrassing.
We should start a list of screw ups:
1) removal of the ptq system
2) removal of the modern pro tour
3) announce dumb pro tour prizing changes
4) change standard rotation to two blocks
5) bad standard format requiring many bans to attempt a fix
6) give all grand prix's to one store
7) change the rptq system again
What's next?
I hope by internal changes they mean personnel related. I'm sure the CEO thinks hey are doing a good job. /sarcasm
Emergency bans are (rightfully) very, very rare. Isn't this only the 3rd or 4th emergency ban ever, I think?
Anyway, they made a disastrously bad decision with the no-ban, quickly realized it, and they have to be able to break the glass and pull the emergency ban lever when they have to.
WOTC: No bans.
Me: Time to buy Saheelis and cats I guess... *proceeds to buy expensive cards*
WOTC: Lol jk, Cat's banned.
Me: well nOW WHAT DO I DO WITH THESE SAHEELIS THANKS WOTC FOR THE MISINFORMATION MY WALLET'S A LOT LIGHTER NOW FOR NO REASON
/frustration
I do wonder if Saheeli will still be viable in standard. Hopefully it will, but can't trust a hope these days I guess.
I think a clear majority, if not the vast majority of standard players wanted the ban. People yelling at wizards now are either angry players who always like to yell at wotc, and ban-supporters still upset they didn't ban a couple days ago even though they are now presumably happy with the ban.
They say they missed the interaction completely ok sure mistakes happen though clearly they need new people working there if they missed an obvious turn 4 2 card combo. But then to not fix this mistake in the last bannings was unforgivable. Then they don't ban it on Monday at which point no doubt people who thought it would get banned decided to buy into the deck. Then they effectively emergency ban it 2 days later because 2 days of data apparently changed everything...
Pathetic.
The sad thing is I don't think it will be the last ban in standard. When reflector mage got hit just because the deck was too strong (even though the card itself is in no way overpowered) shows to me that if a deck is dominating too much any card can go even if it's not broken in of itself.
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Agree here. They should have done this.
No, they couldn't have. They only really found out about it when Aether Revolt released, which was not long enough in the past for them to have changed anything in Amonkhet.
They did not choose to let the combo slip through the cracks. Obviously, if they could have simply chosen to fix it they would have, they've said as much, but they did not notice the problem in time- the way you are putting it makes it out like they knew but just didn't care.
You can't fix a problem but never making the mistake that created it in the first place- otherwise there wouldn't be a problem to fix.
*with one alternative
And even three alternatives hardly seems like 'all these alternatives'.
But yes, they could have done this better- by simply banning the card on the announcement day. This decision is basically an admission of that.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
So there was nothing wrong with them waiting two days after the scheduled announcement to ban the card?
You would be ok with them setting a precedent where standard cards can be banned or unbanned at any point in the season?
No one has even addressed the fact that with only two days of the new set, many players on MTGO aren't going to have all the cards from the new set. They aren't going to want to try something new for an event.... not with money on the line. Of course people are going to play something established and available and are going to win with it at a high percentage.
The more I put thought into the situation, the more it seems like a joke.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
There's no way that could ever logistically happen even if it was in WotC's interest excluding such problems.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Next up: Tinker unbanned in Legacy.
May as well try something similar to Felidar based on results here, right?
I agree, but let's be real: this is the closest thing to proof that their data is flawed, biased, and/or simply wrong.
Most reputable online retailers will refund your purchase of cards banned within 30 days of the purchase (or orders placed as a result of the non-bannings if you bought an entire deck). Is it a hassle that shouldn't have occurred? Yeah, probably. At least players aren't completely left out in the weeds.
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Actually I'm way more annoyed by their decision flip-flops than the ban or lack of ban itself. If you wanted to listen to the community outright, the ban would have happened on Monday latest. If you wanted real data on post-Amonkhet Standard with the combo, then it would have needed to wait until after the Pro-Tour. Yes it would have drawn the ire of Standard players, but at least you kept your word on wanting data (as much as all of us are skeptical of it ourselves). This half-baked decision doesn't to have any support at all - the data is insufficient in terms of length of time and what made these 3 days of complaining any different from the last few months' worth?