Short of a complete renegotiation of the agreement
Who would they 'negotiate' with? There isn't a hive mind here, a leader, a singular negotiable entity that is authorized to speak on the behalf of all players who own one or more reserved-list cards.
The reserved list was a company policy they entered into and published voluntarily. But it wasn't 'negotiated' with the set of people that is "owners of cards on this list". I know I was never contacted by them, nor by any lawyer asking if I authorize them to represent me, and I don't expect most card owners were.
You talk as if there was a signed contract here between two parties, and thus something that could be reopened between the two parties. But the 'other party' never existed in any sense that it could have agreed to any specific terms, nor could they agree to any new terms any more or less today than they could have then.
I am also confused as to who Hasbro and Wizards would have to "renegotiate" with to remove the RL. According to the (Card Reprint Policy, The Duelist #10, May 1996) article, no legally binding contract, paper or otherwise, was signed by MaRo, Garfield or any of the execs at Wizards of the Coast. There were no "negotiating" or "opposing" party to wizards (despite outcry from collectors, there was no legal action or proceedings). A "PROMISE" was made to collectors and created the RL.
Wizards themselves have modified the RL on multiple occasions, printed premium and non premium versions of cards on the RL, and removed cards from the RL. Most significantly in 2002.
"In 2002's revision WoTC decided no cards from the Mercadian Masques set and later sets would be reserved. Commons and uncommons from Limited Edition were REMOVED from the reserved list due to overwhelming public support for this
change. In consideration of past commitments, however, no other cards would be removed from the list. The exception was Feroz's Ban from Homelands, which was was reprinted in Fifth Edition but (mistakenly) still on the Reserved List at the time. It was also removed."
2002 shows that wizards can choose to remove cards from the list (without legal action), in this case simply by public support. It also indicates that they mistakingly reprinted a card on the RL and received no backlash for it and simply removed it from the RL.
It has been stated by MaRo multiple times that there is no "legal" binding contract that holds the RL in place. The spirit of the "promise" Wizards made 20 plus years ago to collectors after the Chronicles debacle, and the undoubted bad publicity, and future legal actions taken by those who invested in that promise is the main contributor to why wizards hasn't abolished the RL. Because it will be argued that a verbal/written promise is a binding contract.
I started playing during alpha as teenager, I have most of the cards on the RL, I don't care as a collector if my power takes a dip, I didn't pay over $20 for any of them back them. Vintage is all but dead as a format, and not supported by wizards very much at all. I'm all for snow duals, for new moxen art, for new generations to feel the immense joy of opening a dual or power.
That said, I think it should be in a limited run again, premiums or such, like the Inventions/Invocations in standard packs, for the super rare cards, keep the run short, keep the chance of getting one very low, you'll see a very small dip in card secondary value. And frankly, who wouldn't want a foil alt art moxen? It might be worth more than the original. Iconic Masters "could, but won't" be the set to do that in. Reprint Vintage playables at common and uncommon (despite their previous rarity accordingly), rares for the powerful cards accordingly, mythics for high dollar much needed reprints, and a cycle of inserts (like Invocations/Inventions) for these packs with a low print run and low chance of hitting them for cards on the RL. Keep MSRP at $10-$15 a pack and quite literally pay for the legal action that would come back at you for breaking the RL.
I'm not saying they will ever break the RL any further than they already have, but if they do, it'll be in small chips off the list, one or two cards here and there, rather than abolish all at once. It'll be in supplemental products, and it'll be extremely hard to acquire them knowing Hasbro. I think we are more likely to see that than we are functional reprints that side skirt the RL through loopholes.
There's likely a class representative or something analogous with whom Wizards has negotiated with in the past, and would continue to do so if another issue came up.
What, did you think the Reserved List was purely the result of some large-scale, unorganized player outcry? It's like it would be with any class of consumers who purchased a product under certain assumptions and guarantees made by the company selling or producing said product.
It's a really simple legal argument: Wizards promised to not reprint certain cards so that their value is maintained. Certain consumers purchased Magic cards based on those inducements. If Wizards were to go back on that, there would be a breach of implied and/or express warranty (look it up).
It's a really simple legal argument: Wizards promised to not reprint certain cards so that their value is maintained. Certain consumers purchased Magic cards based on those inducements. If Wizards were to go back on that, there would be a breach of implied and/or express warranty (look it up).
No one ever bought a card from Wizards with the promise that it wouldn't be reprinted. All of these transactions happened on the secondary market. Cards were only added to the reserved list after the fact.
What, did you think the Reserved List was purely the result of some large-scale, unorganized player outcry? It's like it would be with any class of consumers who purchased a product under certain assumptions and guarantees made by the company selling or producing said product.
Yes, the reserved list WAS created because of unorganized public outcry. The player-base was much different back then than it is now. There were more collectors in the game versus more regular day by day players who prefer to have fun and utilize power in their gameplay. WOTC isn't shy about why the list was created to begin with. That situation with public outcry wouldn't be the case today however.
It's a really simple legal argument: Wizards promised to not reprint certain cards so that their value is maintained. Certain consumers purchased Magic cards based on those inducements. If Wizards were to go back on that, there would be a breach of implied and/or express warranty (look it up).
The argument is simple as you mentioned. Wizards promise to not reprint certain cards so that their value is maintained. However, that doesn't mean the same thing would be done today. Not by a long shot. WOTC has made multiple changes to the reserved list since it was originally introduced over 20 years ago, meaning if they wanted, they can easily go back and change their minds on whatever they want, whenever they want. Yes, it would be bad PR for them with a few of the collectors, but that would be about it. They don't need permission to take it away.
I'm trying hard not to get into the RL discussion However, I think that Iconic Masters could be a 1 shot set that Wizards pushes along with other stuff for their 25th MTG anniversary. They probably scheduled a ton of stuff for the anniversary that they had to release some products this year rather than next.
Angels, Demons, and Dragons all have received support from blocks like Innistrad and Tarkir, and Hydras and Sphinxs at least have some themed cards. It helps that we have commons and uncommons in most of the iconics too.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I was looking up the original 1996 Policy announcement on the creation of the reserved list. As mentioned above, it's a company policy because store owners and distributors were likely losing money and stopped ordering the product because of over printing by WotC coupled with lowering demand (because collectors were upset that their cards plunged in value and thought about leaving the game). The threat was likely that the distributors would stop buying since the player base were rage quitting. Let me remind you the player base was much smaller (3-5MM) then it is now (~20MM). WotC was going through a lot of other lawsuits at the time on other products, and at that time this policy was definitely needed for the survival of the game. I'm not arguing for or against the RL, but internal policies can change. My company makes subtle changes to policies every year to keep current. I'm intrigued to see what this Magic Digital Next is all about since RL cards can be used online per the policy.
My only hope for "Iconic" creatures and spells, is that they are appropriately rare shifted up or down. I would love to see Armageddon again, maybe Shivan Dragon at uncommon, Rishadan Port at rare, heck even a Blood Moon would be nice to see printed again. If they want to do two master like sets a year, great! That means more reprints occur instead of trying to cram it all into one overly powerful set that people complain is too expensive to buy or a lackluster set that people say is too expensive to buy because their favorite card was not in there.
Angels, Demons, and Dragons all have received support from blocks like Innistrad and Tarkir, and Hydras and Sphinxs at least have some themed cards. It helps that we have commons and uncommons in most of the iconics too.
Truthfully for the past several years (not sure how long) white gets a mythic Angel and black gets a mythic Demon every set and red gets a mythic Dragon every block. And that isn't counting the ones printed at rare and below.
I'm not sure we need more of these reprinted. I mean even in Commander I can only put so many angels in my Gisela deck so reprinting them all isn't going to entice me to buy in. And this is coming from a guy that has opened at least 6 boxes of every "Masters" set they have produced so far. I'm not sure that "tribal" reprint sets are what we want or need.
i highly doubt that "iconic masters" will be tribal in nature. The 2017 Commander product is, for the most part, going to be 4 tribal based decks. So I doubt we see double dipping in two supplementary products that touch on the same thing. Just an observation.
Incoming Imperial Seal and Mana drain. They ahve had their judge promos and now time to milk that cow even more. If people are expecting any thing other that what has happened over the last year they are kidding themselves. With a few huge-value mythics and some solid format rares the box EV will land ~$200. They will fill the rest with Sengir Vampire and Serra Angel. I would love to see something to really make this set feel different, like the old card frame.
What I don't like is two masters sets in one year. 6 sets a year is too many right now. Build the base for a few more years.
What's on topic? We have a set announcement and we know almost nothing useful aside from the name, which is ambiguous and could mean almost anything. What's worse, yet another conversation about one of the most significant and controversial policies affecting Magic (which is absolutely relevant to the topic of a reprint set) or more pointless speculation where people just post lists of cards at each other?
Iconic Masters could be a set of nothing but judge promos/FNM promos and it would be a huge hit. I would see even this scenario, while unlikely, still being more likely than WoTC getting rid of the RL and reprinting it.. don't get me wrong I want more ppl to get to play with RL cards but I think a safer route to accomplishing this would be to unban gold borders for tourney play that way no actual printing is done and no promises broken.
Iconic Masters could be a set of nothing but judge promos/FNM promos and it would be a huge hit. I would see even this scenario, while unlikely, still being more likely than WoTC getting rid of the RL and reprinting it.. don't get me wrong I want more ppl to get to play with RL cards but I think a safer route to accomplishing this would be to unban gold borders for tourney play that way no actual printing is done and no promises broken.
But some of those cards are already expensive. I wonder if they could print a gold border set not meant for tournament play except for in a limited setting like draft or sealed.
as eluded to already, one of the absolute easiest ways around the RL is to release another collector's edition/world championship product with gold borders/gold backs/altered card back etc. Then announce tournament legality in eternal formats. But it won't happen, and what truly is the value to players of opening "fake" RL cards unless they are allowed in tournaments?
It'll probably be like if you mashed together 5 prospective From the Vaults of these tribes. There are a few money cards, and the rest will be for "iconic" purposes.
Never underestimate the crowd's willingness to throw money at new art and new printings though. Forums will always be a vocal minority.
Sorry if this has been pointed out already, but has anyone else noticed the "<!-- Crazy Egg --> " comment in the source code for the page that leads to some javascript. I'm currently deciphering it as we speak.
EDIT: Woops, nevermind, thought it might be an easter egg. Turns out it's just web page analytics.
Promissory estoppel is literally parroted every time this issue is brought up by ppl who have no idea what it means. The only reason its brought up is as a bad strategy to defend against the fact that the RL is not in a legally binding contractual form. Estoppel requires consideration (which in no way would wizards be liable for because these cards are bought on the secondary market, not straight from wizards). In addition, the reserved list was a promise made by the previous ownership of wizards. Because the RL does not exist in contract form, there is also 0 grounds to argue that some sort of assignment clause exists as well, so hasbro is not bound by the RL.
Tl;dr promissory estoppel is a terrible, porous argument and needs to stop being parroted by ppl who have 0 understanding of what it actually means.
as eluded to already, one of the absolute easiest ways around the RL is to release another collector's edition/world championship product with gold borders/gold backs/altered card back etc. Then announce tournament legality in eternal formats. But it won't happen, and what truly is the value to players of opening "fake" RL cards unless they are allowed in tournaments?
I don't think the casual draw of having those"fake" cards can be underestimated. Plus the limited game, if it were powered similar to a cube would be extremely fun.
I think this is basically going to be "Commander Masters"
I would not buy packs, or a box of this product, but I will be happy if it drives down the price of some expensive cards in the format.
Has it already been confirmed as to whether or not Iconic Masters will contain Reserved List reprints?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Who would they 'negotiate' with? There isn't a hive mind here, a leader, a singular negotiable entity that is authorized to speak on the behalf of all players who own one or more reserved-list cards.
The reserved list was a company policy they entered into and published voluntarily. But it wasn't 'negotiated' with the set of people that is "owners of cards on this list". I know I was never contacted by them, nor by any lawyer asking if I authorize them to represent me, and I don't expect most card owners were.
You talk as if there was a signed contract here between two parties, and thus something that could be reopened between the two parties. But the 'other party' never existed in any sense that it could have agreed to any specific terms, nor could they agree to any new terms any more or less today than they could have then.
Wizards themselves have modified the RL on multiple occasions, printed premium and non premium versions of cards on the RL, and removed cards from the RL. Most significantly in 2002.
"In 2002's revision WoTC decided no cards from the Mercadian Masques set and later sets would be reserved. Commons and uncommons from Limited Edition were REMOVED from the reserved list due to overwhelming public support for this
change. In consideration of past commitments, however, no other cards would be removed from the list. The exception was Feroz's Ban from Homelands, which was was reprinted in Fifth Edition but (mistakenly) still on the Reserved List at the time. It was also removed."
2002 shows that wizards can choose to remove cards from the list (without legal action), in this case simply by public support. It also indicates that they mistakingly reprinted a card on the RL and received no backlash for it and simply removed it from the RL.
It has been stated by MaRo multiple times that there is no "legal" binding contract that holds the RL in place. The spirit of the "promise" Wizards made 20 plus years ago to collectors after the Chronicles debacle, and the undoubted bad publicity, and future legal actions taken by those who invested in that promise is the main contributor to why wizards hasn't abolished the RL. Because it will be argued that a verbal/written promise is a binding contract.
I started playing during alpha as teenager, I have most of the cards on the RL, I don't care as a collector if my power takes a dip, I didn't pay over $20 for any of them back them. Vintage is all but dead as a format, and not supported by wizards very much at all. I'm all for snow duals, for new moxen art, for new generations to feel the immense joy of opening a dual or power.
That said, I think it should be in a limited run again, premiums or such, like the Inventions/Invocations in standard packs, for the super rare cards, keep the run short, keep the chance of getting one very low, you'll see a very small dip in card secondary value. And frankly, who wouldn't want a foil alt art moxen? It might be worth more than the original. Iconic Masters "could, but won't" be the set to do that in. Reprint Vintage playables at common and uncommon (despite their previous rarity accordingly), rares for the powerful cards accordingly, mythics for high dollar much needed reprints, and a cycle of inserts (like Invocations/Inventions) for these packs with a low print run and low chance of hitting them for cards on the RL. Keep MSRP at $10-$15 a pack and quite literally pay for the legal action that would come back at you for breaking the RL.
I'm not saying they will ever break the RL any further than they already have, but if they do, it'll be in small chips off the list, one or two cards here and there, rather than abolish all at once. It'll be in supplemental products, and it'll be extremely hard to acquire them knowing Hasbro. I think we are more likely to see that than we are functional reprints that side skirt the RL through loopholes.
What, did you think the Reserved List was purely the result of some large-scale, unorganized player outcry? It's like it would be with any class of consumers who purchased a product under certain assumptions and guarantees made by the company selling or producing said product.
It's a really simple legal argument: Wizards promised to not reprint certain cards so that their value is maintained. Certain consumers purchased Magic cards based on those inducements. If Wizards were to go back on that, there would be a breach of implied and/or express warranty (look it up).
No one ever bought a card from Wizards with the promise that it wouldn't be reprinted. All of these transactions happened on the secondary market. Cards were only added to the reserved list after the fact.
Yes, the reserved list WAS created because of unorganized public outcry. The player-base was much different back then than it is now. There were more collectors in the game versus more regular day by day players who prefer to have fun and utilize power in their gameplay. WOTC isn't shy about why the list was created to begin with. That situation with public outcry wouldn't be the case today however.
The argument is simple as you mentioned. Wizards promise to not reprint certain cards so that their value is maintained. However, that doesn't mean the same thing would be done today. Not by a long shot. WOTC has made multiple changes to the reserved list since it was originally introduced over 20 years ago, meaning if they wanted, they can easily go back and change their minds on whatever they want, whenever they want. Yes, it would be bad PR for them with a few of the collectors, but that would be about it. They don't need permission to take it away.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
Sphinxes
Demons
Dragons
Hydras
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
I hang my head in shame for getting off topic.
Come on, MYTHIC Scion of the Ur-Dragon!
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
My only hope for "Iconic" creatures and spells, is that they are appropriately rare shifted up or down. I would love to see Armageddon again, maybe Shivan Dragon at uncommon, Rishadan Port at rare, heck even a Blood Moon would be nice to see printed again. If they want to do two master like sets a year, great! That means more reprints occur instead of trying to cram it all into one overly powerful set that people complain is too expensive to buy or a lackluster set that people say is too expensive to buy because their favorite card was not in there.
Truthfully for the past several years (not sure how long) white gets a mythic Angel and black gets a mythic Demon every set and red gets a mythic Dragon every block. And that isn't counting the ones printed at rare and below.
I'm not sure we need more of these reprinted. I mean even in Commander I can only put so many angels in my Gisela deck so reprinting them all isn't going to entice me to buy in. And this is coming from a guy that has opened at least 6 boxes of every "Masters" set they have produced so far. I'm not sure that "tribal" reprint sets are what we want or need.
What I don't like is two masters sets in one year. 6 sets a year is too many right now. Build the base for a few more years.
What's on topic? We have a set announcement and we know almost nothing useful aside from the name, which is ambiguous and could mean almost anything. What's worse, yet another conversation about one of the most significant and controversial policies affecting Magic (which is absolutely relevant to the topic of a reprint set) or more pointless speculation where people just post lists of cards at each other?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
But some of those cards are already expensive. I wonder if they could print a gold border set not meant for tournament play except for in a limited setting like draft or sealed.
It would be funny
But I. Sure slivers have the highest chance of getting the 5 color spot (likely of getting a 5 color deck in commander 2017 anyway)
But yea lots to choose from for reprints in this.
Never underestimate the crowd's willingness to throw money at new art and new printings though. Forums will always be a vocal minority.
EDIT: Woops, nevermind, thought it might be an easter egg. Turns out it's just web page analytics.
Modern:
UU TronU
URUR StormUR
RBWBurnRBW
EDH:
RBGProssh,skyraider of kherGBR
RKrenko,Mob BossR
URMelek,Izzet ParagonRU
RDaretti, Scrap savantR
WBTriad of fatesBW
Tl;dr promissory estoppel is a terrible, porous argument and needs to stop being parroted by ppl who have 0 understanding of what it actually means.
I don't think the casual draw of having those"fake" cards can be underestimated. Plus the limited game, if it were powered similar to a cube would be extremely fun.
I would not buy packs, or a box of this product, but I will be happy if it drives down the price of some expensive cards in the format.
Soooo... cool I guess. Yay Iconic masters?
BGGRock
Modern
BRGJund
BBGRock
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta