Speaking of loopholes, what if they ended magic the gathering.. started a "new" game called magic and make all magic the gathering cards legal in it. Different company not obliged to keep the past companies promises of the reserved list.
That would explain the whole "logo" thing happening in MM3!
The logo on the box for Modern Master 2017 was changed to where it simply said "Magic" and not "Magic: the Gathering". Someone asked Mark Rosewater and he had mentioned that WOTC was testing some things on supplemental products for the game.
Speaking of loopholes, what if they ended magic the gathering.. started a "new" game called magic and make all magic the gathering cards legal in it. Different company not obliged to keep the past companies promises of the reserved list.
That would explain the whole "logo" thing happening in MM3!
Interesting theory. You'd probably need a copyright/consumer right lawyer to comment on that since it's a pretty out there idea. And I feel like ACTUAL big money business would have tried loop holes like this to avoid laws for much bigger stakes in the past.(note: this is based on the theory that the reserved list ONLY exists for legal reason. I'm not entirely convinced that MaRo isn't telling the truth and that the MAIN reason it still exists is because they care about the promise).
For sure, I'm no lawyer, but the magic logo on mm17 and companies getting out of "win this for life" type scenarios when another company buys them is what made me think of it
For sure, I'm no lawyer, but the magic logo on mm17 and companies getting out of "win this for life" type scenarios when another company buys them is what made me think of it
I like the idea. And if random forums on the internet aren't the kind of place we can discuss out-there nonsense like this, where can we do it?!
Maybe they could rebrand magic, and then define Modern/Legacy as "formats where ALL magic cards are legal! (and various magic: the gathering cards are legal as well). They could reprint Dual Lands with the SAME name under the new brand/new frames. But Legacy would keep the old rules about "cards with the same name being identical." And this would provide a perfect time to change the card back.
Note: There is no way in HELL I ever think they would do it. It can't POSSIBLY be worth it. But it's fun to think about
For sure, I'm no lawyer, but the magic logo on mm17 and companies getting out of "win this for life" type scenarios when another company buys them is what made me think of it
Probably going to pass on this and the new Commander stuff, unless there are tournament-playable staples in there. I can grab most hydras and dragons at dollar-bin prices, so not too interested there.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
There are a million reasons why this wouldn't work.
The short version is that you'd need either a license or outright ownership of the various IPs needed to make Magic cards (the card frames, game designs and mechanics, names, mana symbols, etc, etc, etc, are all protected IPs of Wizards). If the lawyers drafting the settlement that legally binds Wizards to honor the "Reserved List" are worth their salt, they would have included provisions that ensured that any third-parties licensees or successors-in-interest to Wizards vis-a-vis the production of Magic cards would be bound by the same terms of the settlement as Wizards themselves.
Yes, that is indeed the short version.
If random non-lawyers on the Internet can conjure up loopholes, you can bet that it's already been considered and accounted for a million times over by lawyers.
Even if they legally could or can do that, there's still the spirit of the promise itself. They find any way to cirvumvent the R-List, they're breaking that promise in spirit by exploiting technicalities and coming off as insincere. The only way Wizards is ever going to abolish the List is if every living collector collectively grants them their blessing to do so.
So, if you want the List to go away, you need to write up a petition, track down a good majority of collectors, and somehow convince them to sign a petition that allows Wizards to reprint valuable cards they've been holding on to and trading for years.
And if by a miracle that actually happened, I'd be fine with the List going away. But then, I'm not a collector.
Back to the topic at hand, "Iconic" definitely has some interesting implications as a Magic term. We could be looking at iconic cards from across the game's history, or we could be looking at a set themed around the actual iconic creatures themselves. The latter would definitely be a curious choice as there isn't any one format referenced in the name.
That gives me an idea: What if future Masters products were built around specific blocks or groups of blocks? For example:
Mirrodin Masters
Mirrodin
Darksteel
Fifth Dawn
Scars of Mirrodin
Mirrodin Besieged
New Phyrexia
Ravnica Masters
Ravnica
Guildpact
Dissension
Return to Ravnica
Gatecrash
Dragon's Maze
Innistrad Masters
Innistrad
Dark Ascension
Avacyn Restored
Shadows over Innistrad
Eldritch Moon
Zendikar Masters
Zendikar
Worldwake
Rise of the Eldrazi
Battle for Zendikar
Oath of the Gatewatch
That would be a novel way to revisit older sets, reprint high-demand cards, and craft new draft experiences.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Even if they legally could or can do that, there's still the spirit of the promise itself. They find any way to cirvumvent the R-List, they're breaking that promise in spirit by exploiting technicalities and coming off as insincere. The only way Wizards is ever going to abolish the List is if every living collector collectively grants them their blessing to do so.
So, if you want the List to go away, you need to write up a petition, track down a good majority of collectors, and somehow convince them to sign a petition that allows Wizards to reprint valuable cards they've been holding on to and trading for years.
And if by a miracle that actually happened, I'd be fine with the List going away. But then, I'm not a collector.
WOTC would not need the permission of every collector, let alone any of them for that matter. Finding loopholes or not, they have changed their minds on details of the reserved list multiple times throughout the years without anyone's consent , and all they need to do is come out with an announcement that they are taking it away or not, etc. It is as simple as that to reverse it, but the process in particular that would lead to that notion would not be for obvious reasons as you were alluding to. WOTC is well aware of the problems that the list has caused over the years and I am pretty sure if they could, they'd reverse time and take it all back, contrary to what collectors back then would have said of them.
Not another masters set and so soon as well urgh. There's going to have to be some serious value or insane limited play to get me interested in forking out on another $10 pack set. I guess that this set will be an all encompassing one with all cards (bar RL ofc) fair game as reprints.
I just hope wizards do as someone suggested and have an iconic creature/spell in the foil slot and then a regular rare/mythic as well just so we don't open a Shivan Dragon or something as our rare lol
Even if they legally could or can do that, there's still the spirit of the promise itself. They find any way to cirvumvent the R-List, they're breaking that promise in spirit by exploiting technicalities and coming off as insincere. The only way Wizards is ever going to abolish the List is if every living collector collectively grants them their blessing to do so.
So, if you want the List to go away, you need to write up a petition, track down a good majority of collectors, and somehow convince them to sign a petition that allows Wizards to reprint valuable cards they've been holding on to and trading for years.
And if by a miracle that actually happened, I'd be fine with the List going away. But then, I'm not a collector.
WOTC would not need the permission of every collector, let alone any of them for that matter. Finding loopholes or not, they have changed their minds on details of the reserved list multiple times throughout the years without anyone's consent , and all they need to do is come out with an announcement that they are taking it away or not, etc. It is as simple as that to reverse it, but the process in particular that would lead to that notion would not be for obvious reasons as you were alluding to. WOTC is well aware of the problems that the list has caused over the years and I am pretty sure if they could, they'd reverse time and take it all back, contrary to what collectors back then would have said of them.
Exactly. Wizards will get rid of the reserve list eventually. It comes down to the following statement:
Amount of money generator by reprint reserve list cards > the collector's money they would loss because collector's would not purchase new product
Wizards does not make any money of the secondary market directly.
Lawyer after laywer has told us that the resserved list means nothing legally and the only reason it's not broken already is corporate not wanting to do it yet.
Hasbro's lawyers are brutal, go to court for apparently frivolous reasons and the only time they've actually "lost" the law and money game was with Lonnie Johnson.
The logo on the box for Modern Master 2017 was changed to where it simply said "Magic" and not "Magic: the Gathering". Someone asked Mark Rosewater and he had mentioned that WOTC was testing some things on supplemental products for the game.
I just noticed last night that Modern Master 2015 didn't have "The Gathering" on the packs either.
Lawyer after laywer has told us that the resserved list means nothing legally and the only reason it's not broken already is corporate not wanting to do it yet.
Links or it didn't happen.
Seriously, can we dispel this nonsensical attitude that Wzards WANTS the Reserved List in place? You don't think they wouldn't absolutely love to print a paper Vintage Masters set? You don't think you'd be able to hear their collective hard-ons halfway across the world at the thought of charging $19.99 per pack for such a set?
Hasbro's lawyers are brutal, go to court for apparently frivolous reasons and the only time they've actually "lost" the law and money game was with Lonnie Johnson.
This is true of most large corporations. They typically have the "sue first, ask questions later" attitude because their relative cost in bringing legal action is significantly lower in general than those being sued.
Lawyer after laywer has told us that the resserved list means nothing legally and the only reason it's not broken already is corporate not wanting to do it yet.
Hasbro's lawyers are brutal, go to court for apparently frivolous reasons and the only time they've actually "lost" the law and money game was with Lonnie Johnson.
Correct! It's a promise they made to collectors and that's it. If they broke that promise then their credibility is in jeopardy, which could hurt the game's existence.
I like Manite's idea, to almost recreate an old standard environment in a single draftable set. That would be fun!
Even MaRo said they are just holding true to their promise. They managed to find loopholes before and they'll manage to find even more if that's what Hasbro wants. Wizards is still afraid of how collectors will react, but Hasbro couldn't really care less at some point, because of the greed monster.
First off, the whole Magic vs. Magic: The Gathering and the RL stuff is BS because even though the box may say Magic, the cards themselves say Magic: The Gathering. Unless Wizards wants to finally change the card backs, as they've wanted to do for years, they're still Magic: The Gathering cards when it comes to selling loose singles.
As for the set itself, I'm just not interested. Most of the iconic creature cards just don't see play anymore. What was considered powerful for a creature back in early Magic is considered garbage today. And I just can't think of too many "iconic" spells that haven't been reprinted a billion times. The most iconic I think is Demonic Tutor, which is definitely a worthy mythic. Otherwise, I just don't know.
The set only has 249 cards. Gonna be a small set. Honestly, it's probably gonna be mediocre at best. With that small of a set, and so much focused on "iconic" creatures, a huge portion of the rares are going to be bulk. I'm sure Wizards will try and argue the new art will pump value into the cards, but I highly doubt insanely good art will make an unplayable $1 Shivan Dragon be worth much more than that.
Just not excited for this. I'm really hoping this isn't the biggest and best out of the 25th anniversary celebration.
I hope this set had a lot less focus on draft-ability, and more on getting much needed reprints out. Nothing like opening Seance, Call of the Heard, or Giant Solifuge to dampen your experience.
I think the issue is that drafts get more players engaged in the product. I would literally never have opened a single MM17 pack without draft. As it is, I did something like 6 live drafts opening almost a box. I then sold/traded most of the playable staples (because I have most of them already).
Now, you can argue that "the set isn't for me" and I'll accept that argument. But it seems that Wizards wants drafters to have investment into the masters set.
Edit: $10 seems like a lot for a set focused on "iconic" creatures, which except for a few outliers don't have any real big money nonsense. I mean, what is the most expensive, reprintable iconic creature? Archangel of Thune? This feels like it should have been $7. Nothing that isn't actively aiming to reprint competitive constructed staples can justify a 10 dollar price tag...
That said, if they really wanna focus on "powerful" draft environment, how about instead of a guaranteed foil, every set comes with TWO rares! that would be a neat twist and actually fit the theme.
My understanding is that it is Hasbro and not WotC that is forcing the reserved list to continue. They don't want to deal with the legal issues if the Reserved List is scrapped. Even if, as others have said, they would win a court case brought by investors/card speculators, it's money wasted and bad PR for them.
There are a million reasons why this wouldn't work.
The short version is that you'd need either a license or outright ownership of the various IPs needed to make Magic cards (the card frames, game designs and mechanics... .
The mechanics themselves I am tempted to doubt, since what can be patentable I thought is fair game now, since their patents expired, if I recall, and outside of that, I thought it'd be hard to enforce individual mechanics falling under copyright, versus how they are written/presented? Someone with the knowledge, please help clarify.
Eh, we're getting another one of these things?
I can't say I care very much about it, $10 is still way too much for these stupid packs. I'm exhausted from seeing so many damn sets recently, I wish they'd just drop this stuff and make newer sets more exciting. Maybe put a few neat reprints in standard to play with or something like that? With all the stuff coming out recently it feels like a few weeks after something is released it's instantly swept under the rug for the next thing, and it was never like this until a couple years ago.
I am not familiar with this "logo" thing?
The logo on the box for Modern Master 2017 was changed to where it simply said "Magic" and not "Magic: the Gathering". Someone asked Mark Rosewater and he had mentioned that WOTC was testing some things on supplemental products for the game.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
Interesting theory. You'd probably need a copyright/consumer right lawyer to comment on that since it's a pretty out there idea. And I feel like ACTUAL big money business would have tried loop holes like this to avoid laws for much bigger stakes in the past.(note: this is based on the theory that the reserved list ONLY exists for legal reason. I'm not entirely convinced that MaRo isn't telling the truth and that the MAIN reason it still exists is because they care about the promise).
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I like the idea. And if random forums on the internet aren't the kind of place we can discuss out-there nonsense like this, where can we do it?!
Maybe they could rebrand magic, and then define Modern/Legacy as "formats where ALL magic cards are legal! (and various magic: the gathering cards are legal as well). They could reprint Dual Lands with the SAME name under the new brand/new frames. But Legacy would keep the old rules about "cards with the same name being identical." And this would provide a perfect time to change the card back.
Note: There is no way in HELL I ever think they would do it. It can't POSSIBLY be worth it. But it's fun to think about
Duuuuude, don't toy with my hoooopes and dreaaams
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
The short version is that you'd need either a license or outright ownership of the various IPs needed to make Magic cards (the card frames, game designs and mechanics, names, mana symbols, etc, etc, etc, are all protected IPs of Wizards). If the lawyers drafting the settlement that legally binds Wizards to honor the "Reserved List" are worth their salt, they would have included provisions that ensured that any third-parties licensees or successors-in-interest to Wizards vis-a-vis the production of Magic cards would be bound by the same terms of the settlement as Wizards themselves.
Yes, that is indeed the short version.
If random non-lawyers on the Internet can conjure up loopholes, you can bet that it's already been considered and accounted for a million times over by lawyers.
So, if you want the List to go away, you need to write up a petition, track down a good majority of collectors, and somehow convince them to sign a petition that allows Wizards to reprint valuable cards they've been holding on to and trading for years.
And if by a miracle that actually happened, I'd be fine with the List going away. But then, I'm not a collector.
Back to the topic at hand, "Iconic" definitely has some interesting implications as a Magic term. We could be looking at iconic cards from across the game's history, or we could be looking at a set themed around the actual iconic creatures themselves. The latter would definitely be a curious choice as there isn't any one format referenced in the name.
That gives me an idea: What if future Masters products were built around specific blocks or groups of blocks? For example:
Mirrodin Masters
That would be a novel way to revisit older sets, reprint high-demand cards, and craft new draft experiences.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
WOTC would not need the permission of every collector, let alone any of them for that matter. Finding loopholes or not, they have changed their minds on details of the reserved list multiple times throughout the years without anyone's consent , and all they need to do is come out with an announcement that they are taking it away or not, etc. It is as simple as that to reverse it, but the process in particular that would lead to that notion would not be for obvious reasons as you were alluding to. WOTC is well aware of the problems that the list has caused over the years and I am pretty sure if they could, they'd reverse time and take it all back, contrary to what collectors back then would have said of them.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
I just hope wizards do as someone suggested and have an iconic creature/spell in the foil slot and then a regular rare/mythic as well just so we don't open a Shivan Dragon or something as our rare lol
Exactly. Wizards will get rid of the reserve list eventually. It comes down to the following statement:
Amount of money generator by reprint reserve list cards > the collector's money they would loss because collector's would not purchase new product
Wizards does not make any money of the secondary market directly.
Hasbro's lawyers are brutal, go to court for apparently frivolous reasons and the only time they've actually "lost" the law and money game was with Lonnie Johnson.
I just noticed last night that Modern Master 2015 didn't have "The Gathering" on the packs either.
Links or it didn't happen.
Seriously, can we dispel this nonsensical attitude that Wzards WANTS the Reserved List in place? You don't think they wouldn't absolutely love to print a paper Vintage Masters set? You don't think you'd be able to hear their collective hard-ons halfway across the world at the thought of charging $19.99 per pack for such a set?
This is true of most large corporations. They typically have the "sue first, ask questions later" attitude because their relative cost in bringing legal action is significantly lower in general than those being sued.
Correct! It's a promise they made to collectors and that's it. If they broke that promise then their credibility is in jeopardy, which could hurt the game's existence.
I like Manite's idea, to almost recreate an old standard environment in a single draftable set. That would be fun!
As for the set itself, I'm just not interested. Most of the iconic creature cards just don't see play anymore. What was considered powerful for a creature back in early Magic is considered garbage today. And I just can't think of too many "iconic" spells that haven't been reprinted a billion times. The most iconic I think is Demonic Tutor, which is definitely a worthy mythic. Otherwise, I just don't know.
The set only has 249 cards. Gonna be a small set. Honestly, it's probably gonna be mediocre at best. With that small of a set, and so much focused on "iconic" creatures, a huge portion of the rares are going to be bulk. I'm sure Wizards will try and argue the new art will pump value into the cards, but I highly doubt insanely good art will make an unplayable $1 Shivan Dragon be worth much more than that.
Just not excited for this. I'm really hoping this isn't the biggest and best out of the 25th anniversary celebration.
iconic angel would be either serra angel or akroma, angel of wrath
and every color has iconic creatures and there is more than enouh to make a set, heres a few without even thinking about it birds of paradise lord of atlantis dark confidant shivan dragon nicol bolas karn, silver golem
edit: i love your 2 rare idea though
top 5 anime of all time (tv, not books because dragon ball would be first)
1. Sword art online 2. Fairy tail 3. Naruto(shipuden) 4. Bleach 5. Claymore
The mechanics themselves I am tempted to doubt, since what can be patentable I thought is fair game now, since their patents expired, if I recall, and outside of that, I thought it'd be hard to enforce individual mechanics falling under copyright, versus how they are written/presented? Someone with the knowledge, please help clarify.
I can't say I care very much about it, $10 is still way too much for these stupid packs. I'm exhausted from seeing so many damn sets recently, I wish they'd just drop this stuff and make newer sets more exciting. Maybe put a few neat reprints in standard to play with or something like that? With all the stuff coming out recently it feels like a few weeks after something is released it's instantly swept under the rug for the next thing, and it was never like this until a couple years ago.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms: