I'm very aggravated with wizards of the coast and their reprint policy over the last two years and I doubt they are going to bring happiness and cupcakes with the next two masters sets, unfortunately. It feels as though they have started using TCG Player trade values to justify the card value they stuff into sets far more than they used to and are constantly tweaking and nerfing the card choices in the sets or stacking it all on the cost of the booster box. Most of us crazy "100+ usd a month on MTG singles" players are getting less and less return value as the years roll by. I know I'm probably going to back out of the hobby entirely if the prices keep going up.
Minus things on the reserved list, if they are doing a nostalgia bombing run on people my guess is that we should all look at what cards are in Odyssey through probably Kamigawa block. For mana I'd love to see an uncommon print run of the Odyssey filter lands and then do the enemy cycle Filters from the Lorwyn block, as they probably wouldn't do the full cycle. I guess I just aim for disappointment these days.
This.
Say what you want about YuGiOh as a broken mess of a game, but at least Konami reprints their cards well.
To the sad detriment of those who invest in it, and collectors.
The priority of any game should be to its players first. If you want to treat a children's card game like it's the stock market, go for it. But the players should always come first.
Everything about Konami's management of Yugioh prioritizes sales above the game, brand and its players/fans to the point of compromising it. Yugioh is trash. So it's ironic you would write that. I have 12 years experience with Yugioh to know the difference.
I started playing YGO with LoN. I know what I'm talking about. While the recent (since the GX Era at least) system has been awful, their reprint policy has always been good. Tins, Structure Decks, and Reprint Sets are always jam packed with cards intended to bring the crazy prices down.
Now their system of selling key pieces to absurdly overpowered decks as Secret Rares, then short-printing those to force players to spend exorbitant amounts of money to stay competitive is stupid beyond words. But their reprint policy is leagues better than Magic's.
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Jelenn Sphinx works well in a WU Flying matters archetype without being restricted to it. Savage Ventmaw is both an enabler and a reward for RG Ramp.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Everything about Konami's management of Yugioh prioritizes sales above the game, brand and its players/fans to the point of compromising it. Yugioh is trash. So it's ironic you would write that. I have 12 years experience with Yugioh to know the difference.
Reprints are definitely not the reason that Yugioh is trash.
Different games have different problems. The one MtG has revolves around the card pool being managed horribly by Wizards of the Coast for the non-rotating formats. It is to the point that there are significant numbers of people who import illegal cards and forgeries to avoid the high secondary market prices because paying for 50-80+ per card when a deck can potentially require 8 or more of these high priced cards is well outside the financial realm of most people playing the game. While the game can certainly be played without these older cards, the high prices and net decking are putting their shadow over the entire modern and probably the commander format now.
The hope that a lot of people are carrying at the moment is that Wizards is potentially turning things around on card availability with this coming year. Commander has always been a place they've used to reprint some staples and with two masters sets plus a return set they have a lot of room to bring back needed cards from the start of modern or before.
The trouble I'm seeing is just the sheer volume of reprints needed across the entire board and a huge number of them are mythics now. They need to downshift the rarity on a bunch of cards they upshifted. Trying to kill a card by withering it on the vine doesn't work if the card is heavily played in modern or some other format. Snapcaster Mage was a disaster at mythic and the same with Cavern of Souls. The company is basically responsible for throwing those into the super high price category. Hopefully they don't waste any slots doing upshifts with Iconic Masters and we see some downshifts happen on a few cards. Noble Hierarch needs some help here after her price just went to the sky, but I think in Iconic Masters we are more likely going to see Bloom tender as it's an elf with some more flexibility on fixing.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Different games have different problems. The one MtG has revolves around the card pool being managed horribly by Wizards of the Coast for the non-rotating formats. It is to the point that there are significant numbers of people who import illegal cards and forgeries to avoid the high secondary market prices because paying for 50-80+ per card when a deck can potentially require 8 or more of these high priced cards is well outside the financial realm of most people playing the game. While the game can certainly be played without these older cards, the high prices and net decking are putting their over the entire modern format.
The hope that a lot of people are carrying at the moment is that Wizards is potentially turning things around on card availability with this coming year. Commander has always been a place they've used to reprint some staples and with two masters sets plus a return set they have a lot of room to bring back needed cards from the start of modern or before.
The trouble I'm seeing is just the sheer volume of reprints needed across the entire board and a huge number of them are mythics now. They need to downshift the rarity on a bunch of cards they upshifted. Trying to kill a card by withering it on the vine doesn't work if the card is heavily played in modern or some other format. Snapcaster Mage was a disaster at mythic and the same with Cavern of Souls. The company is basically responsible for throwing those into the super high price category.
Magic card availability is becoming more and more prevailing. I'm unsure how long you've been playing for but magic did change its printing policy during the start of Return to Ravnica block. Prior to that time a set would only be printed for a few limited months when that set was the newest. After RtR the sets are now printed on demand until two years later when the set rotates out of standard. This printing process has allowed far more cards to be issued and collected. Cards like snapcaster mage and liliana of the veil never dropped below 30 when that block rotated out, but even though they were a reprint all shock lands never stayed above 10 when they rotated. Watery grave is still a 15 dollar card after being released 5 years ago. Cards have become affordable, but unfortunately every single card they've ever printed cannot become affordable otherwise what's the point to magic being a collectible anyways?
I've been playing since 2000, and intrinsic value is one of the things that has always kept players around. What's the point of spending money on cards if there's no return value? What the point of playing a game where you get nothing back? As we move foreword magic has to, and is evolving to accommodate the ever growing number of players vs the demand for cards which in my opinion has been handled quite well. With an MSRP of 3.99 a pack there has to be some form of value there, otherwise who would buy them? Just like in life everybody can't afford to do the same thing everyone else can. Unfortunately modern, and legacy should very well be left to the players who have worked hard at gaining their collection and want something to show for it. Eventually wizards will make another non rotating format to compensate for modern prices.
Magic card availability is becoming more and more prevailing. I'm unsure how long you've been playing for but magic did change its printing policy during the start of Return to Ravnica block. Prior to that time a set would only be printed for a few limited months when that set was the newest. After RtR the sets are now printed on demand until two years later when the set rotates out of standard. This printing process has allowed far more cards to be issued and collected. Cards like snapcaster mage and liliana of the veil never dropped below 30 when that block rotated out, but even though they were a reprint all shock lands never stayed above 10 when they rotated. Watery grave is still a 15 dollar card after being released 5 years ago. Cards have become affordable, but unfortunately every single card they've ever printed cannot become affordable otherwise what's the point to magic being a collectible anyways?
I've been playing since 2000, and intrinsic value is one of the things that has always kept players around. What's the point of spending money on cards if there's no return value? What the point of playing a game where you get nothing back? As we move foreword magic has to, and is evolving to accommodate the ever growing number of players vs the demand for cards which in my opinion has been handled quite well. With an MSRP of 3.99 a pack there has to be some form of value there, otherwise who would buy them? Just like in life everybody can't afford to do the same thing everyone else can. Unfortunately modern, and legacy should very well be left to the players who have worked hard at gaining their collection and want something to show for it. Eventually wizards will make another non rotating format to compensate for modern prices.
No, please no. You're saying that modern is a format for "elite" players (like yourself) that "work hard" (=Spend a lot of money) to have a deck?
If it where like you're saying not a lot of people would play modern, who would you play against?
The value of an opened pack is almost non-existent, just think of the lastest set "Hour of Devastation" where it's really hard to get back the value of the pack.
Also Wizards does not really care about non-rotating formats, for them is all about limited and standard where they do a lot more money.
Different games have different problems. The one MtG has revolves around the card pool being managed horribly by Wizards of the Coast for the non-rotating formats. It is to the point that there are significant numbers of people who import illegal cards and forgeries to avoid the high secondary market prices because paying for 50-80+ per card when a deck can potentially require 8 or more of these high priced cards is well outside the financial realm of most people playing the game. While the game can certainly be played without these older cards, the high prices and net decking are putting their over the entire modern format.
The hope that a lot of people are carrying at the moment is that Wizards is potentially turning things around on card availability with this coming year. Commander has always been a place they've used to reprint some staples and with two masters sets plus a return set they have a lot of room to bring back needed cards from the start of modern or before.
The trouble I'm seeing is just the sheer volume of reprints needed across the entire board and a huge number of them are mythics now. They need to downshift the rarity on a bunch of cards they upshifted. Trying to kill a card by withering it on the vine doesn't work if the card is heavily played in modern or some other format. Snapcaster Mage was a disaster at mythic and the same with Cavern of Souls. The company is basically responsible for throwing those into the super high price category.
Magic card availability is becoming more and more prevailing. I'm unsure how long you've been playing for but magic did change its printing policy during the start of Return to Ravnica block. Prior to that time a set would only be printed for a few limited months when that set was the newest. After RtR the sets are now printed on demand until two years later when the set rotates out of standard. This printing process has allowed far more cards to be issued and collected. Cards like snapcaster mage and liliana of the veil never dropped below 30 when that block rotated out, but even though they were a reprint all shock lands never stayed above 10 when they rotated. Watery grave is still a 15 dollar card after being released 5 years ago. Cards have become affordable, but unfortunately every single card they've ever printed cannot become affordable otherwise what's the point to magic being a collectible anyways?
I've been playing since 2000, and intrinsic value is one of the things that has always kept players around. What's the point of spending money on cards if there's no return value? What the point of playing a game where you get nothing back? As we move foreword magic has to, and is evolving to accommodate the ever growing number of players vs the demand for cards which in my opinion has been handled quite well. With an MSRP of 3.99 a pack there has to be some form of value there, otherwise who would buy them? Just like in life everybody can't afford to do the same thing everyone else can. Unfortunately modern, and legacy should very well be left to the players who have worked hard at gaining their collection and want something to show for it. Eventually wizards will make another non rotating format to compensate for modern prices.
To explain this blunty, it's not always about how much gets printed in bulk, but how much gets opened, who is opening it, and the rarity of the cards. The trouble the game has gotten into is that once cards go out of print the rarity scheme used to make draft viable limits the number of constructed playable cards, as the majority of those cards typically are at the rare and mythic level. So high demand cards, which more often then not are at those levels, quickly escalate in price. Wizards answer to addressing this is completely wrong. They basically got the feedback "we need more cards!" and instead of printing the exact cards people are asking for, they've printed even more draft sets as supplementary sets at a high MSRP. Just about the only set to date that was probably passable was Modern Masters 2013 and even then the limited run plus the high MSRP per box did little to help things on the market.
Also, cards don't need to be 80 dollars ever. Cards can have intrinsic value and still cost 30 usd on the secondary market tops. The prices on the second hand market right now are from a complete lack of properly addressing demand at all by wizards and are no different than the amibo shortage issue that happened in the past or the shortage of Nintendo Classic Mini consoles that resulted in a scalpers market. Just because the TCG market has had the issues longer due to being more susceptible to it and enfranchised players are used to it doesn't make it any less wrong.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Cards have become affordable, but unfortunately every single card they've ever printed cannot become affordable otherwise what's the point to magic being a collectible anyways?
It's up to each person to decide what value it has, let it be monetary or sentimental. A collection isn't always solely for money.
I've been playing since 2000, and intrinsic value is one of the things that has always kept players around.
Do you have an actual source for this? I've gone back and forth on the game, and what makes me come back isn't because I think the game will make me money, but because I have money to spend or because I just got bored of it for a while and it looks interesting to return. I can't imagine that intrinsic value "has always kept players around". What person quits because they can't make enough money on it and only come back when the cards are expensive?
What's the point of spending money on cards if there's no return value?
Besides the value in being able to play them in a game you enjoy?
What the point of playing a game where you get nothing back?
Usually you do something because you get something out of it, either joy, fun, socializing, stress relief, or perhaps even money on occasion.
As we move foreword magic has to, and is evolving to accommodate the ever growing number of players vs the demand for cards which in my opinion has been handled quite well.
Really? With them creating even more limited print run products than ever lately and refusing to reprint cards in certain products because of some fear created 20 years ago in Chronicles doesn't show me they are accommodating the demand all that well.
With an MSRP of 3.99 a pack there has to be some form of value there, otherwise who would buy them?
You know the packs for this product are $10, right?
Just like in life everybody can't afford to do the same thing everyone else can. Unfortunately modern, and legacy should very well be left to the players who have worked hard at gaining their collection and want something to show for it. Eventually wizards will make another non rotating format to compensate for modern prices.
This is just dumb. The reason Legacy and Vintage are dying is because of that "elite" attitude that oozed from those formats for a while. Having more players because cards are cheaper is not a bad thing, in fact that means more people to play with and those formats thrive. Which in turn would increase the price of those cards all over again. If they have to keep creating formats over time because of their inability and stubbornness to reprint anything worthwhile outside of limited print run sets then the game has a deep running problem. (Although I'm sure it'll happen eventually anyways, no matter the prices.)
Also, you're going to have to explain "worked hard at gaining their collection and want something to show for it". What do they have to show for it?
And we're off topic again. If you're not directly discussing Iconic Masters, please move the discussion to a new topic. This topic is about Iconic Masters, not the elitism of format players or the merits of card value. Please just create a topic for discussing those things already so they don't keep bleeding back into topics like these.
I'd try to start discussion about draft themes again, but I have work starting within the hour so I'll update or post about those later.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
And we're off topic again. If you're not directly discussing Iconic Masters, please move the discussion to a new topic. This topic is about Iconic Masters, not the elitism of format players or the merits of card value. Please just create a topic for discussing those things already so they don't keep bleeding back into topics like these.
And it's off topic to tell people that they are being off topic. (Yes, I'm a bit pissy.)
I'd try to start discussion about draft themes again, but I have work starting within the hour so I'll update or post about those later.
We know what the draft themes will be. They will be the kind that allow them to reprint the cards no one really wants or needs, nor fits with this whole "iconic" idea of theirs. After all we need more Wolfbriar Elementals and Terastodons and more uncommons bumped to mythic. We'll see things like Serra Angel at rare again because "limited" or some bull***** excuse about how not every rare can be $5+ else it might ruin some investor's hoard and that's why it's awesome to spend $10 on $2 worth of cards.
I would like to suggest that of all the masters sets this will be the hardest to predict the contents of.
One thing I would say is every Modern masters has felt like EDH masters as much as Modern, andI suspect a fair chunk of the cards will be aimed at those audiences. I would expect to see more Brainstorms, Swords and other recently reprinted competitive cards of relatively low draft impact (i.e. they don't break draft in two), beyond that the tribes, lands and mythics are going to be hard to call. If anyone is shifting cards because of their hunches over this set, I would say they are doing it wrong.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Iconic Masters sounds a bit like a rebranded Eternal Masters, actually. I'm suspecting it will be aimed at Legacy and EDH / Commander largely because of all the surveys they have been sending out along with how the market really favors the sealed Commander Products. Last year they sold out rather fast and it's been a constant performer for Wizards that works both with casual players and legacy / competitive players.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I just think the $10 price tag is a bit much, would like to see these packs go back to $7. But if you guys say they've been selling well, then they must know what they're doing.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
And we're off topic again. If you're not directly discussing Iconic Masters, please move the discussion to a new topic. This topic is about Iconic Masters, not the elitism of format players or the merits of card value. Please just create a topic for discussing those things already so they don't keep bleeding back into topics like these.
And it's off topic to tell people that they are being off topic. (Yes, I'm a bit pissy.)
I'd try to start discussion about draft themes again, but I have work starting within the hour so I'll update or post about those later.
We know what the draft themes will be. They will be the kind that allow them to reprint the cards no one really wants or needs, nor fits with this whole "iconic" idea of theirs. After all we need more Wolfbriar Elementals and Terastodons and more uncommons bumped to mythic. We'll see things like Serra Angel at rare again because "limited" or some bull***** excuse about how not every rare can be $5+ else it might ruin some investor's hoard and that's why it's awesome to spend $10 on $2 worth of cards.
Are you honestly suggesting Force of Will should be an uncommon because it was when it was first released? It's the single most Iconic spell in Legacy. It is Zuul. It is the gatekeeper. Every deck without question in two entire formats (arguably 3 with Commander) has to answer the question: can you beat Force of Will?
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Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Are you honestly suggesting Force of Will should be an uncommon because it was when it was first released? It's the single most Iconic spell in Legacy. It is Zuul. It is the gatekeeper. Every deck without question in two entire formats (arguably 3 with Commander) has to answer the question: can you beat Force of Will?
Did I say it should be mythic? Oh wait....I didn't and you are just playing hopscotch and jumping to conclusions instead of reading. Force of Will is not mythic, nor is it uncommon. If only there was a rarity between them, but for the life of me I can't think of one. If only. Then again neither can WotC because they constantly bump cards up to mythic for no reason. No, wait, there are reasons and it's "Gotta protect those hoarders" and "Limited blah blah blah". Cavern of Souls, Comet Storm, Snapcaster Mage (although it's the closest one out of all of these), Tarmogoyf, and Force of Willare not mythic.
Mana Drain has more of a reason to be Mythic, seeing as it's usually cheaper to cast and gives far more benefit, but no Force of Will is seen as this legendary and mythical thing only because it does stuff in Legacy and Vintage. By putting Force at mythic all they did was make the card more expensive and now it's about the same price as it was before it was reprinted. Wanna know what would have helped the price? Putting it at a rarity that it deserves and one where it'll actually show up more than once every three boxes.
All they do by forcing these cards at mythic is show that secondary price and history means more than logic. Goyf doesn't affect limited, because it's actually bad there, and the same for Cavern of Souls (especially when the set doesn't have a tribal theme and even then barely). They effect limited less than Pack Rat does, and that has no reason being mythic either if it ever got reprinted. They can say that it's for Limited all day but we know it's about how much they cost on the secondary market and some perceived strength in formats that are not part of Limited in the least. I don't care if Goyf is strong in Modern, it makes no sense at mythic for Limited.
I just think the $10 price tag is a bit much, would like to see these packs go back to $7. But if you guys say they've been selling well, then they must know what they're doing.
That would be great if they went back to $7. Had Masters stayed at $7 packs, rather than going to $10, it would have made them all feel far more worth buying.
what card shop were you guys buying any masters anything packs at at under $12 minimum?
products like these... given their print run, and whats included, msrp is irrelevant. wotc could set a price of literally $1, but if the run and the cards included warrant it then your shop will charge $20.
what card shop were you guys buying any masters anything packs at at under $12 minimum?
products like these... given their print run, and whats included, msrp is irrelevant. wotc could set a price of literally $1, but if the run and the cards included warrant it then your shop will charge $20.
In Italy for MM2 the price per pack was 15€ that is roughly 17,60$ (with today's change), luckly for Eternal Masters the price has been lowered to 12€, but still that is a lot for a set full of crappy (ok, maybe not a lot) reprints.
Everything about Konami's management of Yugioh prioritizes sales above the game, brand and its players/fans to the point of compromising it. Yugioh is trash. So it's ironic you would write that. I have 12 years experience with Yugioh to know the difference.
Reprints are definitely not the reason that Yugioh is trash.
I didn't say reprints were the reason YGO is trash. I said YGO is trash. They create the scarcity to sell boxes to people desiring to be competitive (and shoehorn their player base into being Spikes by not fostering and even outright opposing, with their products, a casual environment) and then pretend to do that crowd a favor by reprinting those scarce cards to sell the reprint product. Then make the scarce card and its reprint negligible with the ban list and power creep as a form of insidious set rotation that is unpredictable. Unlike MTG though, there are no eternal formats for it to thrive - only one linear format where such cards are inevitably eclipsed. Collecting in YGO, or investing at all, it foolish. Fortunately, the YGO player base is stupid enough to jump onto the next thing defining the meta and requiring the cycle to repeat. YGO players often comment on how admirable it is MTG cards hold a respectable margin of value.
They're so desperate and out of ideas (despite having the option of actually supporting their game constructively) that Konami is now taking away mechanics and requiring people to buy into new products just to allow players to play as they always had before with the Extra. Don't get me started on the Zone/Column nonsense. Sad.
@dontrike, the issue with the reprints is that they are insisting on upshifting rarity on many of the older uncommons. They gave a reason before for this, but the reality is that greed is blinding them and they are trying to turn anything popular into a chase card. They need to downshift the rarity on a lot of cards or they will never be able to reprint them all effectively. They have almost no control over the marketing of singles and the upshift strategy will eventually make the formats too expensive to play.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
For sets that stretch to pre-modern they kinda need to upshift because not only were there no mythics then, but a substantial portion of the things that were rare then are now on the reserved list. So filling a reprint set with 15 mythics and 53 rares when the sets its being drawn from had 0 mythics and a great deal of what they had as rares have been promised never-to-reprint... means something has to upshift to fill that vacuum (and I think people prefer they tackle in that way - upshift Wasteland and Mana Drain and Force of Will and Berserk, rather than put lower-demand actually-reprintable rares from that era in rare slots like Mahamoti Djinn and Shivan Dragon.)
I agree with you on the unnecessary upshifts on rares from sets that had mythics.
I thought the same way about the up shift in rarity on pre mythic sets until I saw snapcaster mage and cavern up shifted. This isn't being done for consistency, it is being done to create chase cards.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Everything about Konami's management of Yugioh prioritizes sales above the game, brand and its players/fans to the point of compromising it. Yugioh is trash. So it's ironic you would write that. I have 12 years experience with Yugioh to know the difference.
Reprints are definitely not the reason that Yugioh is trash.
I didn't say reprints were the reason YGO is trash. I said YGO is trash. They create the scarcity to sell boxes to people desiring to be competitive (and shoehorn their player base into being Spikes by not fostering and even outright opposing, with their products, a casual environment) and then pretend to do that crowd a favor by reprinting those scarce cards to sell the reprint product. Then make the scarce card and its reprint negligible with the ban list and power creep as a form of insidious set rotation that is unpredictable. Unlike MTG though, there are no eternal formats for it to thrive - only one linear format where such cards are inevitably eclipsed. Collecting in YGO, or investing at all, it foolish. Fortunately, the YGO player base is stupid enough to jump onto the next thing defining the meta and requiring the cycle to repeat. YGO players often comment on how admirable it is MTG cards hold a respectable margin of value.
They're so desperate and out of ideas (despite having the option of actually supporting their game constructively) that Konami is now taking away mechanics and requiring people to buy into new products just to allow players to play as they always had before with the Extra. Don't get me started on the Zone/Column nonsense. Sad.
While I haven't played Yugioh in about 10 years I do keep up with it slightly when it comes with major changes and I can definitely see what you are talking about. A lot of those changes have been rather absurd, even based on very basic understanding of the game.
I personally think Yugioh needs a new card face, that whole front of the card is a mess after 15+ years with it. The text on some of those cards are impossible to read, and I have brand new glasses and it still feels like I need a magnifying glass for some of those cards.
@dontrike, the issue with the reprints is that they are insisting on upshifting rarity on many of the older uncommons. They gave a reason before for this, but the reality is that greed is blinding them and they are trying to turn anything popular into a chase card. They need to downshift the rarity on a lot of cards or they will never be able to reprint them all effectively. They have almost no control over the marketing of singles and the upshift strategy will eventually make the formats too expensive to play.
I agree. I think MM2 and part of EMA showed that they need to be more proactive in downgrading some rarities with cards like Giant Solifuge.
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I started playing YGO with LoN. I know what I'm talking about. While the recent (since the GX Era at least) system has been awful, their reprint policy has always been good. Tins, Structure Decks, and Reprint Sets are always jam packed with cards intended to bring the crazy prices down.
Now their system of selling key pieces to absurdly overpowered decks as Secret Rares, then short-printing those to force players to spend exorbitant amounts of money to stay competitive is stupid beyond words. But their reprint policy is leagues better than Magic's.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Reprints are definitely not the reason that Yugioh is trash.
The hope that a lot of people are carrying at the moment is that Wizards is potentially turning things around on card availability with this coming year. Commander has always been a place they've used to reprint some staples and with two masters sets plus a return set they have a lot of room to bring back needed cards from the start of modern or before.
The trouble I'm seeing is just the sheer volume of reprints needed across the entire board and a huge number of them are mythics now. They need to downshift the rarity on a bunch of cards they upshifted. Trying to kill a card by withering it on the vine doesn't work if the card is heavily played in modern or some other format. Snapcaster Mage was a disaster at mythic and the same with Cavern of Souls. The company is basically responsible for throwing those into the super high price category. Hopefully they don't waste any slots doing upshifts with Iconic Masters and we see some downshifts happen on a few cards. Noble Hierarch needs some help here after her price just went to the sky, but I think in Iconic Masters we are more likely going to see Bloom tender as it's an elf with some more flexibility on fixing.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Magic card availability is becoming more and more prevailing. I'm unsure how long you've been playing for but magic did change its printing policy during the start of Return to Ravnica block. Prior to that time a set would only be printed for a few limited months when that set was the newest. After RtR the sets are now printed on demand until two years later when the set rotates out of standard. This printing process has allowed far more cards to be issued and collected. Cards like snapcaster mage and liliana of the veil never dropped below 30 when that block rotated out, but even though they were a reprint all shock lands never stayed above 10 when they rotated. Watery grave is still a 15 dollar card after being released 5 years ago. Cards have become affordable, but unfortunately every single card they've ever printed cannot become affordable otherwise what's the point to magic being a collectible anyways?
I've been playing since 2000, and intrinsic value is one of the things that has always kept players around. What's the point of spending money on cards if there's no return value? What the point of playing a game where you get nothing back? As we move foreword magic has to, and is evolving to accommodate the ever growing number of players vs the demand for cards which in my opinion has been handled quite well. With an MSRP of 3.99 a pack there has to be some form of value there, otherwise who would buy them? Just like in life everybody can't afford to do the same thing everyone else can. Unfortunately modern, and legacy should very well be left to the players who have worked hard at gaining their collection and want something to show for it. Eventually wizards will make another non rotating format to compensate for modern prices.
No, please no. You're saying that modern is a format for "elite" players (like yourself) that "work hard" (=Spend a lot of money) to have a deck?
If it where like you're saying not a lot of people would play modern, who would you play against?
The value of an opened pack is almost non-existent, just think of the lastest set "Hour of Devastation" where it's really hard to get back the value of the pack.
Also Wizards does not really care about non-rotating formats, for them is all about limited and standard where they do a lot more money.
Modern: UB Zombie hunt UB - WR Boros tokens WR - BGW Treefolk tribal BGW
Commander: UR Mizzix, a Storm of spells UR (Decklist)
To explain this blunty, it's not always about how much gets printed in bulk, but how much gets opened, who is opening it, and the rarity of the cards. The trouble the game has gotten into is that once cards go out of print the rarity scheme used to make draft viable limits the number of constructed playable cards, as the majority of those cards typically are at the rare and mythic level. So high demand cards, which more often then not are at those levels, quickly escalate in price. Wizards answer to addressing this is completely wrong. They basically got the feedback "we need more cards!" and instead of printing the exact cards people are asking for, they've printed even more draft sets as supplementary sets at a high MSRP. Just about the only set to date that was probably passable was Modern Masters 2013 and even then the limited run plus the high MSRP per box did little to help things on the market.
Also, cards don't need to be 80 dollars ever. Cards can have intrinsic value and still cost 30 usd on the secondary market tops. The prices on the second hand market right now are from a complete lack of properly addressing demand at all by wizards and are no different than the amibo shortage issue that happened in the past or the shortage of Nintendo Classic Mini consoles that resulted in a scalpers market. Just because the TCG market has had the issues longer due to being more susceptible to it and enfranchised players are used to it doesn't make it any less wrong.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Do you have an actual source for this? I've gone back and forth on the game, and what makes me come back isn't because I think the game will make me money, but because I have money to spend or because I just got bored of it for a while and it looks interesting to return. I can't imagine that intrinsic value "has always kept players around". What person quits because they can't make enough money on it and only come back when the cards are expensive?
Besides the value in being able to play them in a game you enjoy?
Usually you do something because you get something out of it, either joy, fun, socializing, stress relief, or perhaps even money on occasion.
Really? With them creating even more limited print run products than ever lately and refusing to reprint cards in certain products because of some fear created 20 years ago in Chronicles doesn't show me they are accommodating the demand all that well.
You know the packs for this product are $10, right?
This is just dumb. The reason Legacy and Vintage are dying is because of that "elite" attitude that oozed from those formats for a while. Having more players because cards are cheaper is not a bad thing, in fact that means more people to play with and those formats thrive. Which in turn would increase the price of those cards all over again. If they have to keep creating formats over time because of their inability and stubbornness to reprint anything worthwhile outside of limited print run sets then the game has a deep running problem. (Although I'm sure it'll happen eventually anyways, no matter the prices.)
Also, you're going to have to explain "worked hard at gaining their collection and want something to show for it". What do they have to show for it?
I'd try to start discussion about draft themes again, but I have work starting within the hour so I'll update or post about those later.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
And it's off topic to tell people that they are being off topic. (Yes, I'm a bit pissy.)
We know what the draft themes will be. They will be the kind that allow them to reprint the cards no one really wants or needs, nor fits with this whole "iconic" idea of theirs. After all we need more Wolfbriar Elementals and Terastodons and more uncommons bumped to mythic. We'll see things like Serra Angel at rare again because "limited" or some bull***** excuse about how not every rare can be $5+ else it might ruin some investor's hoard and that's why it's awesome to spend $10 on $2 worth of cards.
One thing I would say is every Modern masters has felt like EDH masters as much as Modern, andI suspect a fair chunk of the cards will be aimed at those audiences. I would expect to see more Brainstorms, Swords and other recently reprinted competitive cards of relatively low draft impact (i.e. they don't break draft in two), beyond that the tribes, lands and mythics are going to be hard to call. If anyone is shifting cards because of their hunches over this set, I would say they are doing it wrong.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They were Rares in sets that had Mythics,
and both originally had much larger print runs than MM2017's.
It's very obviously a cash grab move by Wizards,
please don't waste your time trying to defend that decision.
(and I already had playsets of both,
so it's not like I need them to be cheaper, either)
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Are you honestly suggesting Force of Will should be an uncommon because it was when it was first released? It's the single most Iconic spell in Legacy. It is Zuul. It is the gatekeeper. Every deck without question in two entire formats (arguably 3 with Commander) has to answer the question: can you beat Force of Will?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Did I say it should be mythic? Oh wait....I didn't and you are just playing hopscotch and jumping to conclusions instead of reading. Force of Will is not mythic, nor is it uncommon. If only there was a rarity between them, but for the life of me I can't think of one. If only. Then again neither can WotC because they constantly bump cards up to mythic for no reason. No, wait, there are reasons and it's "Gotta protect those hoarders" and "Limited blah blah blah". Cavern of Souls, Comet Storm, Snapcaster Mage (although it's the closest one out of all of these), Tarmogoyf, and Force of Will are not mythic.
Mana Drain has more of a reason to be Mythic, seeing as it's usually cheaper to cast and gives far more benefit, but no Force of Will is seen as this legendary and mythical thing only because it does stuff in Legacy and Vintage. By putting Force at mythic all they did was make the card more expensive and now it's about the same price as it was before it was reprinted. Wanna know what would have helped the price? Putting it at a rarity that it deserves and one where it'll actually show up more than once every three boxes.
All they do by forcing these cards at mythic is show that secondary price and history means more than logic. Goyf doesn't affect limited, because it's actually bad there, and the same for Cavern of Souls (especially when the set doesn't have a tribal theme and even then barely). They effect limited less than Pack Rat does, and that has no reason being mythic either if it ever got reprinted. They can say that it's for Limited all day but we know it's about how much they cost on the secondary market and some perceived strength in formats that are not part of Limited in the least. I don't care if Goyf is strong in Modern, it makes no sense at mythic for Limited.
That would be great if they went back to $7. Had Masters stayed at $7 packs, rather than going to $10, it would have made them all feel far more worth buying.
what card shop were you guys buying any masters anything packs at at under $12 minimum?
products like these... given their print run, and whats included, msrp is irrelevant. wotc could set a price of literally $1, but if the run and the cards included warrant it then your shop will charge $20.
Modern: UB Zombie hunt UB - WR Boros tokens WR - BGW Treefolk tribal BGW
Commander: UR Mizzix, a Storm of spells UR (Decklist)
They're so desperate and out of ideas (despite having the option of actually supporting their game constructively) that Konami is now taking away mechanics and requiring people to buy into new products just to allow players to play as they always had before with the Extra. Don't get me started on the Zone/Column nonsense. Sad.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree with you on the unnecessary upshifts on rares from sets that had mythics.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
While I haven't played Yugioh in about 10 years I do keep up with it slightly when it comes with major changes and I can definitely see what you are talking about. A lot of those changes have been rather absurd, even based on very basic understanding of the game.
I personally think Yugioh needs a new card face, that whole front of the card is a mess after 15+ years with it. The text on some of those cards are impossible to read, and I have brand new glasses and it still feels like I need a magnifying glass for some of those cards.
I agree. I think MM2 and part of EMA showed that they need to be more proactive in downgrading some rarities with cards like Giant Solifuge.