Mana Drain is an absolutely iconic shoe-in to make it. On it's own, it's waaaayyy too powerful to ever see the light of day in Modern. But in a set like this, it should be selected.
What were the broken combos during Champions/Ravnica standard again? How about during Innistrad/RTR?
Those are widely considered two of the best standard formats.
Edit: Also Ravnica/Time Spiral. They had a combo deck (Dragonstorm), but no where near broken levels. Lorwyn/Shards standard was also widely loved, and guess what, no combo decks at all.
Combos are beloved by a narrow subset of players.
The rest of the player base hates them because it vastly shifts the balance of Magic from a "game of skill" to a "game of chance". That is, the outcome of a single game is typically determined by whether a player could assemble the combo. Any mistakes made previously during that same game are rendered largely irrelevant if the combo is assembled. Any board or card advantage that an opponent of a combo deck has build and maintained is irrelevant if the combo is assembled.
The prevalence of such combo decks are not a fun meta environment to play in because Magic generally stops being an actual game that that point. You may as well roll a die to determine the outcome of the game and cut out the middle man.
What were the broken combos during Champions/Ravnica standard again? How about during Innistrad/RTR?
Those are widely considered two of the best standard formats.
Edit: Also Ravnica/Time Spiral. They had a combo deck (Dragonstorm), but no where near broken levels. Lorwyn/Shards standard was also widely loved, and guess what, no combo decks at all.
Combos are beloved by a narrow subset of players.
The rest of the player base hates them because it vastly shifts the balance of Magic from a "game of skill" to a "game of chance". That is, the outcome of a single game is typically determined by whether a player could assemble the combo. Any mistakes made previously during that same game are rendered largely irrelevant if the combo is assembled. Any board or card advantage that an opponent of a combo deck has build and maintained is irrelevant if the combo is assembled.
The prevalence of such combo decks are not a fun meta environment to play in because Magic generally stops being an actual game that that point. You may as well roll a die to determine the outcome of the game and cut out the middle man.
Have you read the post you quoted? They do not at all state anything regarding whether combo is good or bad. They entirely concentrate on whether combo was generally absent or present in Standard throughout all the time Blueberrybagel claimed.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.
Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.
There have been hyper efficient creatures and broken combos in standard for well over a decade now. They are only a problem when they dont print answers to them like now.
What were the broken combos during Champions/Ravnica standard again? How about during Innistrad/RTR?
Those are widely considered two of the best standard formats.
Edit: Also Ravnica/Time Spiral. They had a combo deck (Dragonstorm), but no where near broken levels. Lorwyn/Shards standard was also widely loved, and guess what, no combo decks at all.
Your nitpicking is factually wrong. CHK/RAV had Enduring Ideal combo, and Lorwyn/Shards had the Seismic Swans combo. While it's true that Innistrad/RTR had no combos on it, it was more because their active decision to not allow combo on Standard. It's the lack of answers that is a problem, not the proficiency of threats.
I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.
Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.
There have been hyper efficient creatures and broken combos in standard for well over a decade now. They are only a problem when they dont print answers to them like now.
What were the broken combos during Champions/Ravnica standard again? How about during Innistrad/RTR?
Those are widely considered two of the best standard formats.
Edit: Also Ravnica/Time Spiral. They had a combo deck (Dragonstorm), but no where near broken levels. Lorwyn/Shards standard was also widely loved, and guess what, no combo decks at all.
Your nitpicking is factually wrong. CHK/RAV had Enduring Ideal combo, and Lorwyn/Shards had the Seismic Swans combo. While it's true that Innistrad/RTR had no combos on it, it was more because their active decision to not allow combo on Standard. It's the lack of answers that is a problem, not the proficiency of threats.
Combo ~= Broken Combo.
My argument remains the same.
Edit: Also, Enduring Ideal wasn't a combo deck. It was a ramp deck. You didn't combo Ideal with anything. You just cast it and searched for other enchantments based on the game state. It's similar to Scapeshift or Standard Valakut. There's a small argument they are "combo" decks, but in reality, they are just ramp decks with different win conditions.
Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.
There have been hyper efficient creatures and broken combos in standard for well over a decade now. They are only a problem when they dont print answers to them like now.
What were the broken combos during Champions/Ravnica standard again? How about during Innistrad/RTR?
Those are widely considered two of the best standard formats.
Edit: Also Ravnica/Time Spiral. They had a combo deck (Dragonstorm), but no where near broken levels. Lorwyn/Shards standard was also widely loved, and guess what, no combo decks at all.
Your nitpicking is factually wrong. CHK/RAV had Enduring Ideal combo, and Lorwyn/Shards had the Seismic Swans combo. While it's true that Innistrad/RTR had no combos on it, it was more because their active decision to not allow combo on Standard. It's the lack of answers that is a problem, not the proficiency of threats.
Combo ~= Broken Combo.
My argument remains the same.
Edit: Also, Enduring Ideal wasn't a combo deck. It was a ramp deck. You didn't combo Ideal with anything. You just cast it and searched for other enchantments based on the game state. It's similar to Scapeshift or Standard Valakut. There's a small argument they are "combo" decks, but in reality, they are just ramp decks with different win conditions.
How is winning on turn 4 with Copycat any different than winning on turn 4 with Seismic Swan? Either both are broken, or none is.
Also "Ramp", although used to refer to decks such as Valakut or Tron, isn't a game strategy, but a means to accomplish one. If you took Enduring Ideal or Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle out of those decks, would they still be able to compete?
Mana Drain is an absolutely iconic shoe-in to make it. On it's own, it's waaaayyy too powerful to ever see the light of day in Modern. But in a set like this, it should be selected.
It is seriously the only iconic card I could see myself bother to get in this set if it is in. There isn't many other iconic cards other than that that I would be interested in seeing that isn't on the reserved list.
Engineered Explosives definitely seems like a rare. Ancestral Vision could go either way, especially in a $10 product. But Crucible of Worlds, an extremely powerful but novel and niche effect, it gonna end up at mythic I bet.
-WoTC releases more and more reprint product lines per year
-reprint products have a premium price
-reprint products seeing larger print runs
-market absorbs most of the reprint product, but not all
-market becomes saturated with new reprints and sees a downshift in card prices
-card prices become too low for consumers to justify continuing to buy/open premium price product
-premium price product sits on shelves
-card prices stop going down in spite of there being enough product availability
I'm seeing the high cost of the reprint products as being prohibitive
What happens if there's a second print run/batch release of MM17 in 5 months and product is still sitting around? Is it really going to drop prices more if people aren't even opening it because of the prohibitive cost?
Consumers understand there becomes a point of equalization where it's not worth buying the packs anymore, then everyone loses at this point.
I'm kind of wondering if this will replace from the vault sets. Has there been an announcement for one of those recently?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm kind of wondering if this will replace from the vault sets. Has there been an announcement for one of those recently?
No announcements so far.
So far I don't see anything on people's wishlists that couldn't have just been put in an existing Masters-brand set. Why isn't Iconic Masters just Eternal Masters 2? I don't know how they're going to make it different enough to justify a whole new Masters series.
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. I can't wait till I can play my bicycle land out, thus making me heckbent, while I have Nessie on the field. You know, so I can attack with my Pervert.
I'm kind of wondering if this will replace from the vault sets. Has there been an announcement for one of those recently?
No announcements so far.
So far I don't see anything on people's wishlists that couldn't have just been put in an existing Masters-brand set. Why isn't Iconic Masters just Eternal Masters 2? I don't know how they're going to make it different enough to justify a whole new Masters series.
Eternal Masters doesn't seem to be fondly remembered from what I can tell. Additionally, even though we all know Pauper and Commander are also Eternal formats, there's an understandable expectation that Eternal Masters is meant to cater to Legacy and Vintage players. Plus they can't put in many Modern staples without raising eyebrows. It makes total sense for a "Generic Masters" unwed to any specific competitive environment where they can print whatever they want without expectations (though the people speculating on heavy tribal themes based on Sphinxes and Angels and Dragons are reading in to the announcement a bit too much).
I wish I could agree with printing iconic, sought-after, powerful cards in Standard sets simply increase availability, but let's face it: Standard sucks now. For how long do you want it to suck?
I wish ZEN fetches were reprinted in Standard (not alongside ONS fetches), but I would have liked them to have had a greater reprint quantity. It's clear they won't be, or at least, indicative as such.
But cards like Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, and Liliana of the Veil of are terrible reprints for Standard legal sets.
If anything, they should simply be reprinted in sets with a less limited print run, which do not cost ~$10 a booster. That's a better way to increase supply of these cards without ruining aspects of the game.
So, uh... is Flusterstorm iconic? I badly want a Flusterstorm reprint.
See, this is the problem with this set, we have no idea what to make of it. Might as well have called it Random Crap Masters 2017. Iconic is not a property that goes hand in hand with need for a reprint, are we supposed to expect Shivan Dragon and Serra Angel in this thing?
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Combos are beloved by a narrow subset of players.
The rest of the player base hates them because it vastly shifts the balance of Magic from a "game of skill" to a "game of chance". That is, the outcome of a single game is typically determined by whether a player could assemble the combo. Any mistakes made previously during that same game are rendered largely irrelevant if the combo is assembled. Any board or card advantage that an opponent of a combo deck has build and maintained is irrelevant if the combo is assembled.
The prevalence of such combo decks are not a fun meta environment to play in because Magic generally stops being an actual game that that point. You may as well roll a die to determine the outcome of the game and cut out the middle man.
Have you read the post you quoted? They do not at all state anything regarding whether combo is good or bad. They entirely concentrate on whether combo was generally absent or present in Standard throughout all the time Blueberrybagel claimed.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Legends: The Elder Dragons
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Your nitpicking is factually wrong. CHK/RAV had Enduring Ideal combo, and Lorwyn/Shards had the Seismic Swans combo. While it's true that Innistrad/RTR had no combos on it, it was more because their active decision to not allow combo on Standard. It's the lack of answers that is a problem, not the proficiency of threats.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Combo ~= Broken Combo.
My argument remains the same.
Edit: Also, Enduring Ideal wasn't a combo deck. It was a ramp deck. You didn't combo Ideal with anything. You just cast it and searched for other enchantments based on the game state. It's similar to Scapeshift or Standard Valakut. There's a small argument they are "combo" decks, but in reality, they are just ramp decks with different win conditions.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
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How is winning on turn 4 with Copycat any different than winning on turn 4 with Seismic Swan? Either both are broken, or none is.
Also "Ramp", although used to refer to decks such as Valakut or Tron, isn't a game strategy, but a means to accomplish one. If you took Enduring Ideal or Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle out of those decks, would they still be able to compete?
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
It is seriously the only iconic card I could see myself bother to get in this set if it is in. There isn't many other iconic cards other than that that I would be interested in seeing that isn't on the reserved list.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
Engineered Explosives definitely seems like a rare. Ancestral Vision could go either way, especially in a $10 product. But Crucible of Worlds, an extremely powerful but novel and niche effect, it gonna end up at mythic I bet.
-reprint products have a premium price
-reprint products seeing larger print runs
-market absorbs most of the reprint product, but not all
-market becomes saturated with new reprints and sees a downshift in card prices
-card prices become too low for consumers to justify continuing to buy/open premium price product
-premium price product sits on shelves
-card prices stop going down in spite of there being enough product availability
I'm seeing the high cost of the reprint products as being prohibitive
What happens if there's a second print run/batch release of MM17 in 5 months and product is still sitting around? Is it really going to drop prices more if people aren't even opening it because of the prohibitive cost?
Consumers understand there becomes a point of equalization where it's not worth buying the packs anymore, then everyone loses at this point.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
No announcements so far.
So far I don't see anything on people's wishlists that couldn't have just been put in an existing Masters-brand set. Why isn't Iconic Masters just Eternal Masters 2? I don't know how they're going to make it different enough to justify a whole new Masters series.
Eternal Masters doesn't seem to be fondly remembered from what I can tell. Additionally, even though we all know Pauper and Commander are also Eternal formats, there's an understandable expectation that Eternal Masters is meant to cater to Legacy and Vintage players. Plus they can't put in many Modern staples without raising eyebrows. It makes total sense for a "Generic Masters" unwed to any specific competitive environment where they can print whatever they want without expectations (though the people speculating on heavy tribal themes based on Sphinxes and Angels and Dragons are reading in to the announcement a bit too much).
I wish ZEN fetches were reprinted in Standard (not alongside ONS fetches), but I would have liked them to have had a greater reprint quantity. It's clear they won't be, or at least, indicative as such.
But cards like Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, and Liliana of the Veil of are terrible reprints for Standard legal sets.
If anything, they should simply be reprinted in sets with a less limited print run, which do not cost ~$10 a booster. That's a better way to increase supply of these cards without ruining aspects of the game.
I thought it *was* established that this is going to be a paper product (paper AND digital?)? Am I off on that?
This is definitely not the case :
https://wpn.wizards.com/en/products/iconic-masters
See, this is the problem with this set, we have no idea what to make of it. Might as well have called it Random Crap Masters 2017. Iconic is not a property that goes hand in hand with need for a reprint, are we supposed to expect Shivan Dragon and Serra Angel in this thing?
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I too would love this, and if they kept it are "rare" that would be wonderful. "IF" being the keyword there. I'd still prefer Mana Drain personally.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
Forgot sphinxes, so consecrated sphinx