Do people who put down $7-10/pack care about iconic creatures?
Isn't that exactly the market niche that both knows they're mostly bad, and already has plenty of draft-chaff Angels, Dragons and Wurms?
I'm curious how this is going to play out.
They only need to print one card over $80, 2-3 cards over $50 and another 6-7 over $20 and the rest of the set can be worthless and they'll sell every box.
I am half expecting a reprint of Imperial Seal in it.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Let's take a look at what $50+ (non-RL) cards they can include and fit within the "Iconic" denomination (in bold text):
Crucible of Worlds - a welcome reprint, yet not really Iconic Force of Will - already reprinted in EMA and AKH, probably not in here Flusterstorm - a welcome reprint, yet not really Iconic Noble Hierarch - a welcome reprint, yet not really Iconic Mana Crypt - already reprinted in EMA and Kaladesh, probably not in here and not really iconic either Jace the Mind Sculptor - not a bad reprint, but already reprinted in EMA, quite iconic Engineered Explosives - last reprinted in MM13 so not a bad candidate for a reprint in here, not really iconic Tarmogoyf - might as well reprint it here, cuz its price sure still holds around $100 no matter what, notorious rather than iconic Horizon Canopy - a welcome reprint, not really iconic Liliana of the Veil - too soon? Rishadan Port - yes please! iconic status debatable Mana Drain - yes please! arguably iconic Imperial Recruiter - would be nice, but not really iconic Ravages of War - the Armageddon we deserve, yet not as iconic as Armageddon itself Doubling Season - a welcome reprint, not really iconic Imperial Seal - a welcome reprint, yet not really iconic Capture of Jingzhou - too set specific, not iconic Zodiac Dragon - fits the iconic dragon race
- all the other P3K cards are too set specific and not iconic - Grim Tutor - a welcome reprint, not as iconic as Demonic Tutor though Ancestral Vision - decent reprint, the iconic part is a throwback to Ancestral Recall Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (with promo art) - decent reprint, iconic for the modern era rather Karn Liberated - decent reprint, quite iconic both for old school and modern eras Through the Breach - decent reprint, not really iconic
I'll be back with notable cards that need reprints but are under $50.
The $10 price tag per booster tells me that they are willing to put more pricey things in this set, but I can't imagine they'd put all the modern+eternal cards (non-RL) that are $30+. I guess reprinting stuff from Eternal Masters is kinda too soon. There aren't too many truly iconic cads to prompt a $10 price tag, especially looking at their information regarding the creature types added, so they are probably introducing some sort of gimmick for the foil slot, maybe something like a collector edition version of RL cards with new frame and new art and appropriate card back.
Look at previous Masters sets, very few cards were worth more than MSRP. Every Masters pack so far is a big gamble. I see no reason why this one will be any different.
And I'd advise people to not get too hung up on the name. Another thing Wizards has shown with these sets is that they will sacrifice consistent theme for a "good draft experience" (read: basically whatever they want)
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Let's take a look at what $50+ (non-RL) cards they can include and fit within the "Iconic" denomination (in bold text):
Crucible of Worlds - a welcome reprint, yet not really Iconic Force of Will - already reprinted in EMA and AKH, probably not in here Flusterstorm - a welcome reprint, yet not really Iconic Noble Hierarch - a welcome reprint, yet not really Iconic Mana Crypt - already reprinted in EMA and Kaladesh, probably not in here and not really iconic either Jace the Mind Sculptor - not a bad reprint, but already reprinted in EMA, quite iconic Engineered Explosives - last reprinted in MM13 so not a bad candidate for a reprint in here, not really iconic Tarmogoyf - might as well reprint it here, cuz its price sure still holds around $100 no matter what, notorious rather than iconic Horizon Canopy - a welcome reprint, not really iconic Liliana of the Veil - too soon? Rishadan Port - yes please! iconic status debatable Mana Drain - yes please! arguably iconic Imperial Recruiter - would be nice, but not really iconic Ravages of War - the Armageddon we deserve, yet not as iconic as Armageddon itself Doubling Season - a welcome reprint, not really iconic Imperial Seal - a welcome reprint, yet not really iconic Capture of Jingzhou - too set specific, not iconic Zodiac Dragon - fits the iconic dragon race
- all the other P3K cards are too set specific and not iconic - Grim Tutor - a welcome reprint, not as iconic as Demonic Tutor though Ancestral Vision - decent reprint, the iconic part is a throwback to Ancestral Recall Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (with promo art) - decent reprint, iconic for the modern era rather Karn Liberated - decent reprint, quite iconic both for old school and modern eras Through the Breach - decent reprint, not really iconic
I'll be back with notable cards that need reprints but are under $50.
i think your iconic is much different from what someone else finds iconic, and you could make the case that many of these are indeed actually iconic in appropriate circles. i think this is where the set is going to really fall down. what you think is iconic is not the same as what i think is iconic is not the same as what the kitchen table player thinks is iconic is not the same as what wotc might think is iconic. this means that someone is always going to have a problem with somethings inclusion in this set, because we often forget that magic is much bigger in scope than our local fnm, or legacy group, or edh night, or what those kids in the corner that smell like unwashed feet are playing
Personally I think WotC is just running out of gimmicky names to hock their crap.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
It's not a choice. The five iconics exist for years now. They don't change out one of their five iconic tribes for this product so they choose to either take them as a package or brand the product differently.
And your idea of what expensive cards they can reprint under the brand "Demon" seems too narrow to me. I'm certain we will see a bunch of creatures with those creature types reprinted, but you can bet we will also get thematic cards like Demonic Tutor and this can easily contain just some high-demand cards with no particular setting-requirements like a prolific spell or land cycle.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
i think your iconic is much different from what someone else finds iconic, and you could make the case that many of these are indeed actually iconic in appropriate circles. i think this is where the set is going to really fall down. what you think is iconic is not the same as what i think is iconic is not the same as what the kitchen table player thinks is iconic is not the same as what wotc might think is iconic. this means that someone is always going to have a problem with somethings inclusion in this set, because we often forget that magic is much bigger in scope than our local fnm, or legacy group, or edh night, or what those kids in the corner that smell like unwashed feet are playing
Ya, Wizards can name their set whatever they want and include all sorts of things that don't really have anything to do with the chosen name as we've seen this with Invocations. I'm just trying to figure out what cards they'd reprint in a $10 booster in order to determine if they could include collector edition style cards. After all, this set is part of their 25th anniversary "program" so the gimmicky collector cards could fit in this set better, although we don't know what other products they're releasing next year.
It's not a choice. The five iconics exist for years now. They don't change out one of their five iconic tribes for this product so they choose to either take them as a package or brand the product differently.
And your idea of what expensive cards they can reprint under the brand "Demon" seems too narrow to me. I'm certain we will see a bunch of creatures with those creature types reprinted, but you can bet we will also get thematic cards like Demonic Tutor and this can easily contain just some high-demand cards with no particular setting-requirements like a prolific spell or land cycle.
I know it's too narrow
It's the only demons I can think of that are iconic
Though I did forget both rakdos cards. And believe me I would have said demonic hordes but that's reserved
Promissory estoppel does not require consideration. A contract requires consideration. As for the prior owner making the promise statement, when a company buys out another company, it may take on all of the obligations of the purchased company. Otherwise, every time a company was bought or sold, it could nullify every contract by saying the prior contract was made by a different owner. Furthermore, the promise was made by Wizards of the Coast and MTG is still sold by Wizards of the Coast; there is no promise by a former owner because it is still the same company. Lastly, the RL does not need to exist in contract form to create the basis of an equitable argument. For example, it can be characterized as an inducement to purchase a product. Moreover, the RL was created as a good will gesture to customers. Removing it would harm that good will.
On topic, Iconic Masters sounds like it will be a bridge between Eternal Masters and Modern Masters in that it will include cards from all eras. It will also give them an opportunity to create a better draft environment because it won't have limitations between modern and eternal.
Consideration is the primary factor in determining estoppel because estoppel applies in cases without contracts. Consideration then determines whether the person making that promise is liable for any expenses accrued in promises that have financial implication.
In regards to "Otherwise, every time a company was bought or sold, it could nullify every contract by saying the prior contract was made by a different owner.", that is exactly why assignment clauses exist as standard and within almost every contract. However, if the RL does not exist in a contractual form, no argument can be made for Hasbro needing to prop up the RL other than for the good will reasons. No assignment clause exists to bind Hasbro to the RL. At this point, it remains to be argued whether the RL is causing more harm than creating good will. The RL is an inducement to purchase a product, yes. However, the products are being sold on the secondary market, not by wotc or Hasbro since the RL cards are out of print. They would have to use the initial value of the cards when they were in print, and even with RL abolished it can easily be argued that the value today of those cards still far exceeds any potential damage getting rid of the RL would cause (MM cards being reprinted and not being worthless would be an example used).
I'm just not into this entire luxury set thing wizards has set themselves upon. It feels way too much like they are thinking in the short term instead of the long term health of the game and they really need more 36 pack sets to hit reprints with, not 24 pack sets that are overpriced.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I might end up buying a few boxes. The price will probably determine how much I'll buy. yay for getting a job that will allow me to have more money soon
A set called Iconic Masters when you have the reserved list in place just seems weird. That said I am expecting a whole chunk of legacy and modern banned cards to be in here. IE Jace, stoneforge, Demonic tutor. Ill also be amazed if there is no ponder, brainstorm, counterspell, force of will.
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.
Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.
There have been hyper efficient creatures and broken combos in standard for well over a decade now. They are only a problem when they dont print answers to them like now.
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.
Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.
There have been hyper efficient creatures and broken combos in standard for well over a decade now. They are only a problem when they dont print answers to them like now.
What were the broken combos during Champions/Ravnica standard again? How about during Innistrad/RTR?
Those are widely considered two of the best standard formats.
Edit: Also Ravnica/Time Spiral. They had a combo deck (Dragonstorm), but no where near broken levels. Lorwyn/Shards standard was also widely loved, and guess what, no combo decks at all.
I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.
Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.
Thats incopetence. Nothing to do with what i said.
You want powerful cards in normal blocks, which would mean Standard. How does my response not have anything to do with what you said. We already know from history that Standards with overly powerful cards and broken combos are horrendous and have horrible attendance (Mirrodin, CawBlade/Splinter Twin/Valakut Standard and current Standard).
You want to be able to buy cards for cheap no matter what it does to the game.
I won't buy into this set like the other overprice master sets. We need these iconic and powerfull cards in normal blocks not these suplemental ones.
Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.
Thats incopetence. Nothing to do with what i said.
You want powerful cards in normal blocks, which would mean Standard. How does my response not have anything to do with what you said. We already know from history that Standards with overly powerful cards and broken combos are horrendous and have horrible attendance (Mirrodin, CawBlade/Splinter Twin/Valakut Standard and current Standard).
You want to be able to buy cards for cheap no matter what it does to the game.
These same powerfull cards has been in standard and only in extreme rare cases it actually caused problems. I'm not saying to print every powerfuoll card in a block but have more reprints and not 1 in a blue moon. Like for example reprint Tarmogoyf in a Standard where theres no graveyard matters.
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I am half expecting a reprint of Imperial Seal in it.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Crucible of Worlds - a welcome reprint, yet not really Iconic
Force of Will - already reprinted in EMA and AKH, probably not in here
Flusterstorm - a welcome reprint, yet not really Iconic
Noble Hierarch - a welcome reprint, yet not really Iconic
Mana Crypt - already reprinted in EMA and Kaladesh, probably not in here and not really iconic either
Jace the Mind Sculptor - not a bad reprint, but already reprinted in EMA, quite iconic
Engineered Explosives - last reprinted in MM13 so not a bad candidate for a reprint in here, not really iconic
Tarmogoyf - might as well reprint it here, cuz its price sure still holds around $100 no matter what, notorious rather than iconic
Horizon Canopy - a welcome reprint, not really iconic
Liliana of the Veil - too soon?
Rishadan Port - yes please! iconic status debatable
Mana Drain - yes please! arguably iconic
Imperial Recruiter - would be nice, but not really iconic
Ravages of War - the Armageddon we deserve, yet not as iconic as Armageddon itself
Doubling Season - a welcome reprint, not really iconic
Imperial Seal - a welcome reprint, yet not really iconic
Capture of Jingzhou - too set specific, not iconic
Zodiac Dragon - fits the iconic dragon race
- all the other P3K cards are too set specific and not iconic -
Grim Tutor - a welcome reprint, not as iconic as Demonic Tutor though
Ancestral Vision - decent reprint, the iconic part is a throwback to Ancestral Recall
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (with promo art) - decent reprint, iconic for the modern era rather
Karn Liberated - decent reprint, quite iconic both for old school and modern eras
Through the Breach - decent reprint, not really iconic
I'll be back with notable cards that need reprints but are under $50.
Look at previous Masters sets, very few cards were worth more than MSRP. Every Masters pack so far is a big gamble. I see no reason why this one will be any different.
And I'd advise people to not get too hung up on the name. Another thing Wizards has shown with these sets is that they will sacrifice consistent theme for a "good draft experience" (read: basically whatever they want)
WU Flying Matters (Favorable Winds, Warden of Evos Isle, Windreader Sphinx, Isperia the Inscrutable)
UB Draw Control (Sphinx's Tutelage, Windreader Sphinx, Indulgent Tormentor, Promise of Power)
BR Discard (Avaricious Dragon, Malfegor, Sire of Insanity)
RG Power Ramp (Flameblast Dragon, Stormbreath Dragon, Hydra Broodmaster, Polukranos, World Eater, Savageborn Hydra)
GW +1/+1 Counters (Archangel of Thune, Kalonian Hydra, Phytohydra)
WB Life Resource (Archangel of Thune, Griselbrand)
UR Hand Manipulation (Dragon Mage, Knollspine Dragon, Arjun, the Shifting Flame, Spellbound Dragon)
BG Sacrifice (Demonic Taskmaster, Rakshasa Gravecaller, Soulcage Fiend, Scourge of Skola Vale)
RW Artifacts (Galvanic Blast, Hellkite Igniter, Hoarding Dragon, Angel of Invention, Dispatch, Indomitable Archangel, Platinum Angel, Steel Hellkite)
GU Bounce/ETB Triggers (Genesis Hydra, Sphinx of Uthuun)
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
If I had it my way, the 10 onslaught/zendikar fetches would be reprinted every year, in an unlimited run product for $10 a pack.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
i think your iconic is much different from what someone else finds iconic, and you could make the case that many of these are indeed actually iconic in appropriate circles. i think this is where the set is going to really fall down. what you think is iconic is not the same as what i think is iconic is not the same as what the kitchen table player thinks is iconic is not the same as what wotc might think is iconic. this means that someone is always going to have a problem with somethings inclusion in this set, because we often forget that magic is much bigger in scope than our local fnm, or legacy group, or edh night, or what those kids in the corner that smell like unwashed feet are playing
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Im not sure why not to think about banned cards. Bloodbraid elf is iconic to me, cruel ultimatum and heartbeat of springs too. Basicly any staple not reprinted recently (except tarmogoyf they can print it to death).
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
(")(")
GONZO
Genius, fast, and long eared.
No to many demons are in the $10+ range
Only demons I see possible are these.
I'm not saying old grisle due to modern masters 2017
It's not a choice. The five iconics exist for years now. They don't change out one of their five iconic tribes for this product so they choose to either take them as a package or brand the product differently.
And your idea of what expensive cards they can reprint under the brand "Demon" seems too narrow to me. I'm certain we will see a bunch of creatures with those creature types reprinted, but you can bet we will also get thematic cards like Demonic Tutor and this can easily contain just some high-demand cards with no particular setting-requirements like a prolific spell or land cycle.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Ya, Wizards can name their set whatever they want and include all sorts of things that don't really have anything to do with the chosen name as we've seen this with Invocations. I'm just trying to figure out what cards they'd reprint in a $10 booster in order to determine if they could include collector edition style cards. After all, this set is part of their 25th anniversary "program" so the gimmicky collector cards could fit in this set better, although we don't know what other products they're releasing next year.
I know it's too narrow
It's the only demons I can think of that are iconic
Though I did forget both rakdos cards. And believe me I would have said demonic hordes but that's reserved
Edit: Found some more demons that are good
Minion of Leshrac
Pit Spawn
Reaper from the Abyss
Reiver Demon (a sweeper)
Seizan, Perverter of Truth
Shadowborn Demon
Silent-Blade Oni
Elbrus, the Binding Blade (it turns into a demon)
Xathrid Demon
Anyway, here's all the demons in MTG, they are quite a few and just a couple of RL cards:
http://magiccards.info/query?q=t:"demon"&s=cname&v=card&p=1 (copy/paste in another window)
Oh simply because of being reprinted in the duel deck divine vs demonic
If that's a long time ago add him to the list.
Consideration is the primary factor in determining estoppel because estoppel applies in cases without contracts. Consideration then determines whether the person making that promise is liable for any expenses accrued in promises that have financial implication.
In regards to "Otherwise, every time a company was bought or sold, it could nullify every contract by saying the prior contract was made by a different owner.", that is exactly why assignment clauses exist as standard and within almost every contract. However, if the RL does not exist in a contractual form, no argument can be made for Hasbro needing to prop up the RL other than for the good will reasons. No assignment clause exists to bind Hasbro to the RL. At this point, it remains to be argued whether the RL is causing more harm than creating good will. The RL is an inducement to purchase a product, yes. However, the products are being sold on the secondary market, not by wotc or Hasbro since the RL cards are out of print. They would have to use the initial value of the cards when they were in print, and even with RL abolished it can easily be argued that the value today of those cards still far exceeds any potential damage getting rid of the RL would cause (MM cards being reprinted and not being worthless would be an example used).
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
Yeah. It's not like Standard suffers when there hyper efficient creatures and broken combos.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
What were the broken combos during Champions/Ravnica standard again? How about during Innistrad/RTR?
Those are widely considered two of the best standard formats.
Edit: Also Ravnica/Time Spiral. They had a combo deck (Dragonstorm), but no where near broken levels. Lorwyn/Shards standard was also widely loved, and guess what, no combo decks at all.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Thats incopetence. Nothing to do with what i said.
You want powerful cards in normal blocks, which would mean Standard. How does my response not have anything to do with what you said. We already know from history that Standards with overly powerful cards and broken combos are horrendous and have horrible attendance (Mirrodin, CawBlade/Splinter Twin/Valakut Standard and current Standard).
You want to be able to buy cards for cheap no matter what it does to the game.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
These same powerfull cards has been in standard and only in extreme rare cases it actually caused problems. I'm not saying to print every powerfuoll card in a block but have more reprints and not 1 in a blue moon. Like for example reprint Tarmogoyf in a Standard where theres no graveyard matters.