Based on rumors that I've been hearing Wizards of the Coast recently appointed a new CEO who doesn't seem to be making the argument over protecting someone's MTG collection like his/her predecessor has when the underlying problem is that the company is eventually going to run out of cards to reprint where they'll have to resort to cards from the Reserved List in order to make a profit despite possibly having little to no understanding of how the Secondary Market works for Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games.
Ironically enough we may have already reached that tipping point where collectors have ruined MTG for players enough to the point where it isn't worth playing anymore. What does that say about other Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games that MTG's currently competing against in the Secondary Market and what that does it say about Wizards of the Coast as a company? I don't understand why Wizards of the Coast would try to discontinue MTG like this If they were only in it for the money.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
the new CEO is not a rumor , he make this own presentation during the kaladesh preview on pro tour .
He is coming from microsoft so they (hasbro) really take someone from outside
Not to mention that the original team that devised the Reserved List 25 years ago has now been let go from Wizards of the Coast though I don't know If that applies to staff members such as Aaron Forsythe and Mark Rosewater.
Not sure if a tweet could stand as a confirmation but here it is:
Could just be a ruse to trick people into buying product only to find out that their investments are now worth pennies on the dollar with Wizards of the Coast taking the blame instead of Hasbro.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
"Not to mention that the original team that devised the Reserved List 25 years ago has now been let go from Wizards of the Coast though I don't know If that applies to staff members such as Aaron Forsythe and Mark Rosewater."
I was unaware that they made the Reserve List prior to the printing of Magic the Gathering. That's interesting.
Unless we got some crazy confirmation the RL isn't going anywhere, keep RL discussion to the RL thread instead and please don't come up with crazy theories like that that have no base in reality whatsoever.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Even if they legally could or can do that, there's still the spirit of the promise itself. They find any way to cirvumvent the R-List, they're breaking that promise in spirit by exploiting technicalities and coming off as insincere. The only way Wizards is ever going to abolish the List is if every living collector collectively grants them their blessing to do so.
So, if you want the List to go away, you need to write up a petition, track down a good majority of collectors, and somehow convince them to sign a petition that allows Wizards to reprint valuable cards they've been holding on to and trading for years.
And if by a miracle that actually happened, I'd be fine with the List going away. But then, I'm not a collector.
WOTC would not need the permission of every collector, let alone any of them for that matter. Finding loopholes or not, they have changed their minds on details of the reserved list multiple times throughout the years without anyone's consent , and all they need to do is come out with an announcement that they are taking it away or not, etc. It is as simple as that to reverse it, but the process in particular that would lead to that notion would not be for obvious reasons as you were alluding to. WOTC is well aware of the problems that the list has caused over the years and I am pretty sure if they could, they'd reverse time and take it all back, contrary to what collectors back then would have said of them.
They do not need loopholes. The Reserved List is policy. All they need to do to get around it is to change their policy, then wait a sufficient amount of time before printing any cards on it (about the times it takes to design and print a set, so roughly a year), and the "collectors" (and I use that term lightly), could do jack about it. They can only be sued if they print the cards while the policy is in effect. Companies change policy all the time.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I will never buy another masters set again until I see the full spoiler. I have made a lot of money from MTG, sold stacks of cards at obscene profits, invested in Modern at the start of the format buying old boxes of stuff like future sight, I have even started the odd run on high end cards on Mkm, but the only time I have been significantly stung in 15 years was EMA, I purchased half way through the spoiler season, never again.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
"Not to mention that the original team that devised the Reserved List 25 years ago has now been let go from Wizards of the Coast though I don't know If that applies to staff members such as Aaron Forsythe and Mark Rosewater."
I was unaware that they made the Reserve List prior the to printing of Magic the Gathering. That's interesting.
#nitpick #basicmath
I don't know the full details exactly since I only started playing MTG in 2002 but that's basically just rumors and hearsay. I'm done discussing about rumors involving Iconic Masters and the Reserved List on this thread.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
WOTC would not need the permission of every collector, let alone any of them for that matter. Finding loopholes or not, they have changed their minds on details of the reserved list multiple times throughout the years without anyone's consent , and all they need to do is come out with an announcement that they are taking it away or not, etc. It is as simple as that to reverse it, but the process in particular that would lead to that notion would not be for obvious reasons as you were alluding to. WOTC is well aware of the problems that the list has caused over the years and I am pretty sure if they could, they'd reverse time and take it all back, contrary to what collectors back then would have said of them.
They do not need loopholes. The Reserved List is policy. All they need to do to get around it is to change their policy, then wait a sufficient amount of time before printing any cards on it (about the times it takes to design and print a set, so roughly a year), and the "collectors" (and I use that term lightly), could do jack about it. They can only be sued if they print the cards while the policy is in effect. Companies change policy all the time.
Thank you for putting it in better words than I did.
Here's my guess, they are running out of high dollar cards to reprint. There are only so many $75 dollar and up cards to print. They need to make it justifiable for players to pay a high price for packs. There are plenty of $8-15 dollar range rares that could be reprinted but that wouldn't sell $10 dollar packs. I think we will get a bunch of $8-15 dollar range rares from all eras at $7.99 a pack.
I honestly don't get all of these Reserved List discussions.
You can argue whether or not Wizards has a legal right to go against or abolish their policy until you are blue in the face but it really doesn't matter in many respects. Even though Tarmagoyf isn't on a list, I can assure you that people would try to sue wizards if it was released as a common in the next set. Even without a legal basis for these lawsuits, anyone who feels personally wronged has the ability to waste their money attempting to sue someone... and a large number of lawsuits (even failed ones) can have real implications.
Even if wizards has every legal right to reprint cards from this list, thousands and thousands of collectors would TRY to sue Wizards. Even if all of these cases were quickly thrown out, the story would certainly get out onto the news as thousands of disaffected customers would work to kick up a PR nightmare (whereas players right now just groan about a stagnant status quo).
With that being the case, one has to ask how wizards would release these cards in a way so that any backlash is outweighed by benefits.
1. If they release cards as judge promos, they aren't making much money from the release and are opening themselves to the backlash.
2. If they release thunder spirit in a set to test the waters, every collector would lash out at Wizards "to teach them a lesson" and it wouldn't build too much hype for the set.
3. If they reprinted all of Alpha for fun, sellers would snap up as much as they could and actual prices would hardly shift, making both us and the collectors angry (and it would have to be a limited release set as Wizards would never add stuff like black lotus to standard/modern).
4. If they go somewhere in the middle and print a few mid-price cards in a Masters Set, we still won't have the tools to compete in eternal formats and collectors would get angry.
So... yeah. If Wizards chose to release these cards, how would that even work?
the new CEO is not a rumor , he make this own presentation during the kaladesh preview on pro tour .
He is coming from microsoft so they (hasbro) really take someone from outside
Oh boy. Is it time to ruin Hasbro like they ruined Nokia?
WOTC would not need the permission of every collector, let alone any of them for that matter. Finding loopholes or not, they have changed their minds on details of the reserved list multiple times throughout the years without anyone's consent , and all they need to do is come out with an announcement that they are taking it away or not, etc. It is as simple as that to reverse it, but the process in particular that would lead to that notion would not be for obvious reasons as you were alluding to. WOTC is well aware of the problems that the list has caused over the years and I am pretty sure if they could, they'd reverse time and take it all back, contrary to what collectors back then would have said of them.
They do not need loopholes. The Reserved List is policy. All they need to do to get around it is to change their policy, then wait a sufficient amount of time before printing any cards on it (about the times it takes to design and print a set, so roughly a year), and the "collectors" (and I use that term lightly), could do jack about it. They can only be sued if they print the cards while the policy is in effect. Companies change policy all the time.
Thank you for putting it in better words than I did.
No problem.
One of my pet peeves is when people don't know the difference between policy and law. >.<
Pretty much the only one that lacks a card of at least seven bucks is Hydras, and even then there are a number that are close. And that is not even counting DFC cards or cards on the reserved list. Zodiac Dragon in particular is in dire need of a reprint.
And even if you add three to six dollar cards to the mix, you are still pretty much confirmed to get value from the packs as it is likely they'll reprint a lot of "Iconic" spells such as regrowth and demonic tutor to keep on theme.
Here's my guess, they are running out of high dollar cards to reprint. There are only so many $75 dollar and up cards to print. They need to make it justifiable for players to pay a high price for packs. There are plenty of $8-15 dollar range rares that could be reprinted but that wouldn't sell $10 dollar packs. I think we will get a bunch of $8-15 dollar range rares from all eras at $7.99 a pack.
Quite possible, but there are still a surprising amount of cards in need of reprints, particularly from the pre-modern era, even when honoring the reserved list, including a number of cards from the three portal sets. Not to mention my favorite demon: Minion of Leshrac (not on the reserved list).
Promissory estoppel is literally parroted every time this issue is brought up by ppl who have no idea what it means. The only reason its brought up is as a bad strategy to defend against the fact that the RL is not in a legally binding contractual form. Estoppel requires consideration (which in no way would wizards be liable for because these cards are bought on the secondary market, not straight from wizards). In addition, the reserved list was a promise made by the previous ownership of wizards. Because the RL does not exist in contract form, there is also 0 grounds to argue that some sort of assignment clause exists as well, so hasbro is not bound by the RL.
Tl;dr promissory estoppel is a terrible, porous argument and needs to stop being parroted by ppl who have 0 understanding of what it actually means.
Promissory estoppel does not require consideration. A contract requires consideration. As for the prior owner making the promise statement, when a company buys out another company, it may take on all of the obligations of the purchased company. Otherwise, every time a company was bought or sold, it could nullify every contract by saying the prior contract was made by a different owner. Furthermore, the promise was made by Wizards of the Coast and MTG is still sold by Wizards of the Coast; there is no promise by a former owner because it is still the same company. Lastly, the RL does not need to exist in contract form to create the basis of an equitable argument. For example, it can be characterized as an inducement to purchase a product. Moreover, the RL was created as a good will gesture to customers. Removing it would harm that good will.
On topic, Iconic Masters sounds like it will be a bridge between Eternal Masters and Modern Masters in that it will include cards from all eras. It will also give them an opportunity to create a better draft environment because it won't have limitations between modern and eternal.
Promissory estoppel is literally parroted every time this issue is brought up by ppl who have no idea what it means. The only reason its brought up is as a bad strategy to defend against the fact that the RL is not in a legally binding contractual form. Estoppel requires consideration (which in no way would wizards be liable for because these cards are bought on the secondary market, not straight from wizards). In addition, the reserved list was a promise made by the previous ownership of wizards. Because the RL does not exist in contract form, there is also 0 grounds to argue that some sort of assignment clause exists as well, so hasbro is not bound by the RL.
Tl;dr promissory estoppel is a terrible, porous argument and needs to stop being parroted by ppl who have 0 understanding of what it actually means.
Promissory estoppel does not require consideration. A contract requires consideration. As for the prior owner making the promise statement, when a company buys out another company, it may take on all of the obligations of the purchased company. Otherwise, every time a company was bought or sold, it could nullify every contract by saying the prior contract was made by a different owner. Furthermore, the promise was made by Wizards of the Coast and MTG is still sold by Wizards of the Coast; there is no promise by a former owner because it is still the same company. Lastly, the RL does not need to exist in contract form to create the basis of an equitable argument. For example, it can be characterized as an inducement to purchase a product. Moreover, the RL was created as a good will gesture to customers. Removing it would harm that good will.
On topic, Iconic Masters sounds like it will be a bridge between Eternal Masters and Modern Masters in that it will include cards from all eras. It will also give them an opportunity to create a better draft environment because it won't have limitations between modern and eternal.
No, the reserved list was created as a kneejerk reaction to the complaints of a few individuals who did not play the game to begin with, a.k.a. speculators. It was a mistake, WotC acknowledges it was a mistake, and it has done more harm than good. They made the policy, and we are stuck with it until they decide to change it or remove it, something they have the legal right to do at any time. They can't start producing or designing products with cards from it until it is removed, but that is an entirely different discussion.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Wizards could just ban all vintage cards from play then watch the prices crumble on the secondary market. The reserved list hurts the game in my opinion. I do think wizards will take a stand against the reserve list someday. I don't think Iconic Master is it though.
On topic, Iconic Masters sounds like it will be a bridge between Eternal Masters and Modern Masters in that it will include cards from all eras. It will also give them an opportunity to create a better draft environment because it won't have limitations between modern and eternal.
But Eternal Masters already included cards from all eras. As did Conspiracy, for that matter. They both already bridge modern and premodern card inclusion in a reprint set.
If this set sounds like anything, it's more of a bridge away from the competitive playerbase and towards the casual - while Masters sets (MM2015 exlcuded) were seemingly focused on getting most of the reprintable cards that serious/competitive players wanted, this set's advertised focus of Hydras and Dragons and Sphinxes (Oh My!) seems to me to NOT be trying to catch the attention of tournament players - but the casual player who wants big splashy dragon because it's big splashy dragon.
Now, whether they can actually get people to pay $10 a pack when their focus isn't on pleasing the playerbase that drives the secondary market... is the real question.
Do people who put down $7-10/pack care about iconic creatures?
Isn't that exactly the market niche that both knows they're mostly bad, and already has plenty of draft-chaff Angels, Dragons and Wurms?
I'm curious how this is going to play out.
They only need to print one card over $80, 2-3 cards over $50 and another 6-7 over $20 and the rest of the set can be worthless and they'll sell every box.
The $10 price tag per booster tells me that they are willing to put more pricey things in this set, but I can't imagine they'd put all the modern+eternal cards (non-RL) that are $30+. I guess reprinting stuff from Eternal Masters is kinda too soon. There aren't too many truly iconic cads to prompt a $10 price tag, especially looking at their information regarding the creature types added, so they are probably introducing some sort of gimmick for the foil slot, maybe something like a collector edition version of RL cards with new frame and new art and appropriate card back.
Ironically enough we may have already reached that tipping point where collectors have ruined MTG for players enough to the point where it isn't worth playing anymore. What does that say about other Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games that MTG's currently competing against in the Secondary Market and what that does it say about Wizards of the Coast as a company? I don't understand why Wizards of the Coast would try to discontinue MTG like this If they were only in it for the money.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Not sure if a tweet could stand as a confirmation but here it is:
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I was unaware that they made the Reserve List prior to the printing of Magic the Gathering. That's interesting.
#nitpick #basicmath
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
We got a ton of other staples that are $10+ that need desperate reprints.
They do not need loopholes. The Reserved List is policy. All they need to do to get around it is to change their policy, then wait a sufficient amount of time before printing any cards on it (about the times it takes to design and print a set, so roughly a year), and the "collectors" (and I use that term lightly), could do jack about it. They can only be sued if they print the cards while the policy is in effect. Companies change policy all the time.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Isn't that exactly the market niche that both knows they're mostly bad, and already has plenty of draft-chaff Angels, Dragons and Wurms?
I'm curious how this is going to play out.
Thank you for putting it in better words than I did.
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
You can argue whether or not Wizards has a legal right to go against or abolish their policy until you are blue in the face but it really doesn't matter in many respects. Even though Tarmagoyf isn't on a list, I can assure you that people would try to sue wizards if it was released as a common in the next set. Even without a legal basis for these lawsuits, anyone who feels personally wronged has the ability to waste their money attempting to sue someone... and a large number of lawsuits (even failed ones) can have real implications.
Even if wizards has every legal right to reprint cards from this list, thousands and thousands of collectors would TRY to sue Wizards. Even if all of these cases were quickly thrown out, the story would certainly get out onto the news as thousands of disaffected customers would work to kick up a PR nightmare (whereas players right now just groan about a stagnant status quo).
With that being the case, one has to ask how wizards would release these cards in a way so that any backlash is outweighed by benefits.
1. If they release cards as judge promos, they aren't making much money from the release and are opening themselves to the backlash.
2. If they release thunder spirit in a set to test the waters, every collector would lash out at Wizards "to teach them a lesson" and it wouldn't build too much hype for the set.
3. If they reprinted all of Alpha for fun, sellers would snap up as much as they could and actual prices would hardly shift, making both us and the collectors angry (and it would have to be a limited release set as Wizards would never add stuff like black lotus to standard/modern).
4. If they go somewhere in the middle and print a few mid-price cards in a Masters Set, we still won't have the tools to compete in eternal formats and collectors would get angry.
So... yeah. If Wizards chose to release these cards, how would that even work?
Oh boy. Is it time to ruin Hasbro like they ruined Nokia?
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
No problem.
One of my pet peeves is when people don't know the difference between policy and law. >.<
I dunno man, but there are a few iconics that cost a bit more than that.
Angels:
Archangel of Thune
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Sphinxes:
Consecrated Sphinx
Demons:
Griselbrand
Dragons:
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Zodiac Dragon
Pretty much the only one that lacks a card of at least seven bucks is Hydras, and even then there are a number that are close. And that is not even counting DFC cards or cards on the reserved list. Zodiac Dragon in particular is in dire need of a reprint.
And even if you add three to six dollar cards to the mix, you are still pretty much confirmed to get value from the packs as it is likely they'll reprint a lot of "Iconic" spells such as regrowth and demonic tutor to keep on theme.
Quite possible, but there are still a surprising amount of cards in need of reprints, particularly from the pre-modern era, even when honoring the reserved list, including a number of cards from the three portal sets. Not to mention my favorite demon: Minion of Leshrac (not on the reserved list).
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Promissory estoppel does not require consideration. A contract requires consideration. As for the prior owner making the promise statement, when a company buys out another company, it may take on all of the obligations of the purchased company. Otherwise, every time a company was bought or sold, it could nullify every contract by saying the prior contract was made by a different owner. Furthermore, the promise was made by Wizards of the Coast and MTG is still sold by Wizards of the Coast; there is no promise by a former owner because it is still the same company. Lastly, the RL does not need to exist in contract form to create the basis of an equitable argument. For example, it can be characterized as an inducement to purchase a product. Moreover, the RL was created as a good will gesture to customers. Removing it would harm that good will.
On topic, Iconic Masters sounds like it will be a bridge between Eternal Masters and Modern Masters in that it will include cards from all eras. It will also give them an opportunity to create a better draft environment because it won't have limitations between modern and eternal.
No, the reserved list was created as a kneejerk reaction to the complaints of a few individuals who did not play the game to begin with, a.k.a. speculators. It was a mistake, WotC acknowledges it was a mistake, and it has done more harm than good. They made the policy, and we are stuck with it until they decide to change it or remove it, something they have the legal right to do at any time. They can't start producing or designing products with cards from it until it is removed, but that is an entirely different discussion.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
It's tragic but we have to deal with it for now. I hope this set fixes other problems with new players getting into Magic.
But Eternal Masters already included cards from all eras. As did Conspiracy, for that matter. They both already bridge modern and premodern card inclusion in a reprint set.
If this set sounds like anything, it's more of a bridge away from the competitive playerbase and towards the casual - while Masters sets (MM2015 exlcuded) were seemingly focused on getting most of the reprintable cards that serious/competitive players wanted, this set's advertised focus of Hydras and Dragons and Sphinxes (Oh My!) seems to me to NOT be trying to catch the attention of tournament players - but the casual player who wants big splashy dragon because it's big splashy dragon.
Now, whether they can actually get people to pay $10 a pack when their focus isn't on pleasing the playerbase that drives the secondary market... is the real question.
They only need to print one card over $80, 2-3 cards over $50 and another 6-7 over $20 and the rest of the set can be worthless and they'll sell every box.
thanks to DNC of Heroes of the Plane Studios for the coolest sig
vintage-WBdark timesBW
legacy-BGRJund-51/60BGR
RBBob Sligh 48/60BR
GRone land belcherRG
URBTES-54/60URB
Fun deck-BBBBKobolds stormBBBB