do we have anything to say it's not? I'm still thinking the guy who leaked "Egypt World" way too early was doing more than guessing. Add in art that looks like Vraska, and her ties to Ravnica (even if the sets were fake, the art was probably commissioned for more than a survey)
I admit it's a pretty big guess, but afaik, there's nothing (except set naming precedent) to kill the theory.
That's not how burden of proof works. You come up with credible evidence to explain why you're right, you don't bank on your wild speculation until it's proven wrong. To call the evidence for your theory "flimsy" is being extremely generous.
And are we seriously still talking about that old discredited 4chan post? This is some Alex Jones level straw-grasping here. Anyone could have guessed that an "Egypt world" was down the pipes. It was one of the most requested planes and Rosewater had basically said they were going to do it eventually.
And now I remember why I stopped posting here... I'm not trying to prove anything. My posts clearly said I was guessing. Caranthir dismissed it out of hand, so I thought he might have seen something I missed to ruin the theory.
do we have anything to say it's not? I'm still thinking the guy who leaked "Egypt World" way too early was doing more than guessing. Add in art that looks like Vraska, and her ties to Ravnica (even if the sets were fake, the art was probably commissioned for more than a survey)
I admit it's a pretty big guess, but afaik, there's nothing (except set naming precedent) to kill the theory.
That's not how burden of proof works. You come up with credible evidence to explain why you're right, you don't bank on your wild speculation until it's proven wrong. To call the evidence for your theory "flimsy" is being extremely generous.
¨
Thanks, Fiveod. Nothing more I can add to it. People really do not understand how burden of proof works recently...
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I'm hoping for a very pretty Quetzal card that I can get in foil.
Y'know, this would be the perfect place to reprint Birds of Paradise.
Perhaps, although it wouldn't fit flavourfully (Birds of Paradise are found in Indonesia, New Guinea, that area of the world). But I wouldn't complain about a BoP reprint.
While this is the real-world truth,
they have always used images of Quetzal-like birds on the cards.
I would hope that would give the Birds an elevated chance-
especially since they can't crew vehicles without jumping through hoops.
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Well, the point was more the "not a Mythology" part than it being broadly Mesoamerican. I expect it will be broadly Mesoamerican in general, but more what I was driving was that I don't expect them to do a top-down Mythology based set outside of a Norse one some time later on, since I saw someone talking about expecting to see Quetzalcoatl. Maybe we will, but I'll be surprised if we get Gods in this set in general.
A Norse based set is MaRo's best bet to get Squirrels back in M:TG. Because if we get a Norse block without a Ratatöskr expy, I and every other Scandinavian who plays magic will riot.
Well, it's also the last of what I call the big three, the mythologies most broadly known by your average American. Greek (Theros), Egyptian (Amonkhet), Norse is the last one. Past that? I mean, maybe we will see someone get a top-down mythology, but Egyptian already wasn't enough to carry a plane by itself, and we know Japanese bombed as a mythology set. They've already pretty much said that a future Japanese plane isn't going to be based on mythology, so I'll be surprised if they go with anything more obscure than that.
I am fairly certain you have not read the Amonkhet articles by MaRo. Or at least, you have only browsed them. He clearly stated they had enough to do a purely Egyptian based block, but their "short list" is long, and they needed a Bolas block. They realized that the two overlapped some, so they combined the two.
Do they know Norse mythology, or Thor comics/movies?
Considering how adamant WotC is about doing mythology right (see, Theros and the upcoming Amonkhet), they will do the research from actual Norse mythology, but will probably add pop-culture influences on top of that because that is what people expect. They can do this well (See Innistrad and the aforementioned Theros) as they have considerable experience in doing it.
I have read them. And having enough material to do a block isn't the same as having enough motivation to do a block. There is enough material to do a block on Japanese Mythology. They've pretty much ruled out doing that though because it isn't resonant enough with their target audience.
That and Bolas world really doesn't mesh nearly as well with Egyptian world as you or they are claiming. Amonkhet feels really warped from Egyptian Mythology compared to Theros and Greek, and it wasn't even as close as I'd have liked with Theros.
And given their desire for pop culture resonance you can certainly expect it to feel closer to Thor than Norse Mythology.
I'm a bit confused by the new method of PT invites, what does it mean by "number of invitations to the next RPTQ round"? Does that mean people who finish in the top x of an RPTQ queue for the next RPTQ?
I wonder if Ixalan will be a mash-up of a Mesoamerican world with something. I don't think underwater world is off the table for being the mash-up, since Vraska's outfit on the Atlazan packaging reminded me of something a swashbuckling pirate would wear.
Starting with Hour of Devastation though we're going lite on the Gatewatch. Unless planeswalkers are being swapped around, we can expect in Vraska in Ixalan and Ajani in (hopefully also renamed) Conquest of Power. I wonder if Wizards will take a villain's perspective for creative. Maybe we won't even get a Jace.
A completely unrelated thing, I'd love Ixalan block to have a focus on instants and sorceries, as that was theme of my Mesoamerican-inpsired block.
Y'know, this would be the perfect place to reprint Birds of Paradise.
Personally, I'm hoping for a Mythic, Legendary, GU Coatl.
I put the chance of Birds at roughly zero. they said that one mana dorks are too strong for Standard now, which while that is BS to the Nth degree, I admit that Elvish Mystic with Vehicles could have sucked harder than people say Vehicles already do. I doubt they are likely to go from 'one drop mana dorks are too strong' to maybe the best of them so quickly. Birds, Doom Blade, Bolt, it's amazing the things they prohibit now while they sit there and allow an all Gideon deck that's going to be a monster
The reason for dropping one mana dorks was not average net power but the affect on balance of other cards. Balance does not exist in a vacuum- 'too strong for standard' does not refer to some absolute metric of power- because there isn't one- but talks instead about how easy things are to balance, what the best power level is for elements compares to the best power levels of other elements, and so on.
It's very easy to ***** on the developers when you don't really know what you are talking about- because let's face it, 90+% of the people on these forums would be pretty average developers until they gained considerable experience. Whether or not there is a problem, it's pretty silly to act like the developers just do stupid things sometimes when they are among the most qualified, if not the most qualified, people for the job. I think it's safe to say there is a reasonable justification for everything, even if there are even better reasons against.
I don't like how many times I feel like it needs to be said that WotC is not evil or stupid, and they deserve a bit more respect and the benefit of the doubt sometimes.
Personally, I think it's very likely we will see the likes of Elvish Mystic again. I don't think however, it will become a mainstay again. Variation is good, and one mana dorks are not low impact on variation. Though, Birds of Paradise would most definitely not be what I would be placing my bets on.
There was a time when i would have defended the developers. When i first started playing, I look back at that time between the banning of Cawblade and the rise of Mono-black Devotion, and that time in between was something of a new golden age. Thragtusk was iffy, but people seemed pretty happy with Standard, Modern became a format, R&D seemed to have a clue. Doom Blade, Bolt, there was removal, there were answers. I don't feel that they can be defended for the past few years. I love Kaladesh as a block, I like the flavor and the designs, but R&D failed miserably in Vehicles, Copycat, Gideon. I know they don't test for Modern, that's fine, we still get the odd toy. but I really am starting to believe that they don't even test for Standard anymore, just limited. Copycat is the most obvious failure, the players broke that before the set was fully spoiled
The players noticed it while developers didn't because developers work on a constantly changing file, and there are only a dozen of them, not thousands of people. It was obviously a shortcoming of developers to miss it, but sets are always going to be imperfect so it's not surprising mistakes happen. I will admit standard has been in a bad spot recently, but these things happen sometimes. It's not good, and it's not something that can't be avoided, but it's not always going to be easy to avoid. It's telling that people would react to this as being the fault of the individual developers and not that this shows they need more people or other resources.
but ten minutes of testing on FLAGSHIP cards for these sets would have made it clear that Gideon and Copter would be problems
That's easy to say with all the time they have actually had to be proven as problems. But is it actually true? The only real proof of these cards being problematic is using all the resources development did not have- the static time and the numbers of people.
and until i am proven worng, I stand by my statement that they consider 1cmc dorks and 2cmc instant speed kill spells too strong for Standard, full stop.
Very little cards can ever be too strong for standard full stop, because that is one of the most limited contexts you can have. Again, balance is all about context and connections, and good balance is not based on mathematically equivalency but maximally enjoyable gameplay through the optimal implementation of strategical choice and variation. It's about fun, not making everything equal. Being too strong for standard full stop means something has to be stronger than everything else typically is by a very large margin. Lightning Bolt, for example, does not even qualify for this, though it is close. We are talking more like Time Walk for this category. Elvish Mystic is not in this category. Even more so, not only is is not being excluded for sheer power level, it has a good chance of coming back. All of which can be seen here:
Likewise, Elvish Mystic wasn't taken out of Standard because it was too strong. Not exactly. I would say that when Elvish Mystic was in Standard, it was secretly one of the strongest cards in the format. It was the defining characteristic for green decks, and many of those decks were defined by the difference in power between games where it played a turn-one Elvish Mystic and the ones where it didn't. A card like Birds of Paradise has the same problem, but worse, since it can mean the difference between a turn-two gold card or not. We are currently taking a break from one-mana accelerators in Standard, much in the way we have moved away from doing two-mana mana stones. Part of the reason is the belief that this lets us create a wider range of cards that can see play (since we can actually put meaningful riders on two-mana mana Elves), and to allow for strong green two- and three-drops to see play without having to balance them around Elvish Mystic.
I couldn't find anything as explicit for doomblade, but I'm pretty sure it's in the same situation.
Khans were announced at PT by MaRo. BFZ at PAX. Shadows at another PT (or GP?). Kaladesh during announcement day, and Amonkhet at least with image. This was...just thrown to us, without any ado.
Anyway, it is just rebranded Atlazan. Too bad, liked the previous name more. Now hoping that Conquest of Power will have less stupid name.
It's gonna be
Pursuit of Domination
Still a better love story than Twilight :D. No, really, I'd liked that name more
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I fear we won't get the full majesty of Mesoamerican names. Though I know it will never happen, I yearn for the prerelease where my opponent tries to pronounce "Huitzilopochtli".
Well, the point was more the "not a Mythology" part than it being broadly Mesoamerican. I expect it will be broadly Mesoamerican in general, but more what I was driving was that I don't expect them to do a top-down Mythology based set outside of a Norse one some time later on, since I saw someone talking about expecting to see Quetzalcoatl. Maybe we will, but I'll be surprised if we get Gods in this set in general.
A Norse based set is MaRo's best bet to get Squirrels back in M:TG. Because if we get a Norse block without a Ratatöskr expy, I and every other Scandinavian who plays magic will riot.
Well, it's also the last of what I call the big three, the mythologies most broadly known by your average American. Greek (Theros), Egyptian (Amonkhet), Norse is the last one. Past that? I mean, maybe we will see someone get a top-down mythology, but Egyptian already wasn't enough to carry a plane by itself, and we know Japanese bombed as a mythology set. They've already pretty much said that a future Japanese plane isn't going to be based on mythology, so I'll be surprised if they go with anything more obscure than that.
I am fairly certain you have not read the Amonkhet articles by MaRo. Or at least, you have only browsed them. He clearly stated they had enough to do a purely Egyptian based block, but their "short list" is long, and they needed a Bolas block. They realized that the two overlapped some, so they combined the two.
Do they know Norse mythology, or Thor comics/movies?
Considering how adamant WotC is about doing mythology right (see, Theros and the upcoming Amonkhet), they will do the research from actual Norse mythology, but will probably add pop-culture influences on top of that because that is what people expect. They can do this well (See Innistrad and the aforementioned Theros) as they have considerable experience in doing it.
I have read them. And having enough material to do a block isn't the same as having enough motivation to do a block. There is enough material to do a block on Japanese Mythology. They've pretty much ruled out doing that though because it isn't resonant enough with their target audience.
That and Bolas world really doesn't mesh nearly as well with Egyptian world as you or they are claiming. Amonkhet feels really warped from Egyptian Mythology compared to Theros and Greek, and it wasn't even as close as I'd have liked with Theros.
And given their desire for pop culture resonance you can certainly expect it to feel closer to Thor than Norse Mythology.
Do you even know Pharaonic Myth? At all? WotC captured the feel pretty well, even if it feels slightly off, but that was kinda the point.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Khans were announced at PT by MaRo. BFZ at PAX. Shadows at another PT (or GP?). Kaladesh during announcement day, and Amonkhet at least with image. This was...just thrown to us, without any ado.
Anyway, it is just rebranded Atlazan. Too bad, liked the previous name more. Now hoping that Conquest of Power will have less stupid name.
Probably because they're pissy about Atlazan being leaked and don't care anymore now that they don't have full control over every single thing anymore (see the new Kozilek/colorless mana symbol leak).
Ixalan is a better name for this plane IMO. I didn't like Atlazan being confused for having an Atlantis theme since we have MTG Atlantis with Arixmethes and Olantin, which are parts of Theros, where such a trope belongs.
If anything I get a sense this plane will be associated more so with air than water/undersea influences.
Do you even know Pharaonic Myth? At all? WotC captured the feel pretty well, even if it feels slightly off, but that was kinda the point.
I do, that doesn't mean that the Plane as a whole isn't warped, at least to me. Even in Amonkhet it still feels way too Bolas, it's only going to get moreso that way with HoD. It's just a difference in how people view things is all, but I don't think citing Pharoahs makes this less Bolas World and more Egyptian.
Do you even know Pharaonic Myth? At all? WotC captured the feel pretty well, even if it feels slightly off, but that was kinda the point.
I do, that doesn't mean that the Plane as a whole isn't warped, at least to me. Even in Amonkhet it still feels way too Bolas, it's only going to get moreso that way with HoD. It's just a difference in how people view things is all, but I don't think citing Pharoahs makes this less Bolas World and more Egyptian.
Then you would obviously know that the ancient Egyptians were completely obsessed with death. Their whole lives revolved around having a balanced existence so they could enter the afterlife rather than face the oblivion that was Ammit/Ammut. To the Pharaonic Egyptians that was nothing more important than passing the judgment of Ma'at. They may have worshipped Ra, Osiris, and Horus, but it was Ma'at that determined if they entered the afterlife or not. Amonkhet captures that part of Egyptian culture as well as is possible in a CCG with as long a history as M:TG has. Yeah, it is not a perfect mirror of ancient Egypt, but it is not supposed to be.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Do you even know Pharaonic Myth? At all? WotC captured the feel pretty well, even if it feels slightly off, but that was kinda the point.
I do, that doesn't mean that the Plane as a whole isn't warped, at least to me. Even in Amonkhet it still feels way too Bolas, it's only going to get moreso that way with HoD. It's just a difference in how people view things is all, but I don't think citing Pharoahs makes this less Bolas World and more Egyptian.
Then you would obviously know that the ancient Egyptians were completely obsessed with death. Their whole lives revolved around having a balanced existence so they could enter the afterlife rather than face the oblivion that was Ammit/Ammut. To the Pharaonic Egyptians that was nothing more important than passing the judgment of Ma'at. They may have worshipped Ra, Osiris, and Horus, but it was Ma'at that determined if they entered the afterlife or not. Amonkhet captures that part of Egyptian culture as well as is possible in a CCG with as long a history as M:TG has. Yeah, it is not a perfect mirror of ancient Egypt, but it is not supposed to be.
I can know all of those things and still feel like the Bolas part outweighs the Egpytian part. When I look at how they built Amonkhet they worked very hard to make sure Bolas was entwined with just about every aspect of Amonkhet, while the Egyptian stuff is more what it looks like as opposed to the function or the like.
I can know all of those things and still feel like the Bolas part outweighs the Egpytian part. When I look at how they built Amonkhet they worked very hard to make sure Bolas was entwined with just about every aspect of Amonkhet, while the Egyptian stuff is more what it looks like as opposed to the function or the like.
Can you elaborate? When I look at Amonkhet, then I see Egypt. The setting is a fertile land around a river surrounded by deserts. There is a keyword ability dedicated to giving us mummies. There is an even more expanded graveyard/death theme (aftermath, cycling). There are animal headed gods. There are legendary creatures based on historical egyptian figures. There are a vertical and a horizontal cycle of monumental buildings. The second sun clearly is inspired by the prominence of the egyptian sun deity.
That's all Egyptian tropes. I see Bolas in two aspects: (1.) He has inserted himself into the mythology as a central figure: The God-Pharaoh. (2.) His horns/scarves are added to the egyptian aesthetics.
What else is there?
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
I can know all of those things and still feel like the Bolas part outweighs the Egpytian part. When I look at how they built Amonkhet they worked very hard to make sure Bolas was entwined with just about every aspect of Amonkhet, while the Egyptian stuff is more what it looks like as opposed to the function or the like.
Can you elaborate? When I look at Amonkhet, then I see Egypt. The setting is a fertile land around a river surrounded by deserts. There is a keyword ability dedicated to giving us mummies. There is an even more expanded graveyard/death theme (aftermath, cycling). There are animal headed gods. There are legendary creatures based on historical egyptian figures. There are a vertical and a horizontal cycle of monumental buildings. The second sun clearly is inspired by the prominence of the egyptian sun deity.
That's all Egyptian tropes. I see Bolas in two aspects: (1.) He has inserted himself into the mythology as a central figure: The God-Pharaoh. (2.) His horns/scarves are added to the egyptian aesthetics.
What else is there?
This is why I tried to use the core and coating analogy. Or... let's say you have a chocolate-covered peanut. Bolas, in this metaphor, is the peanut. Chocolate is the Egyptian element. They are both there. But the chocolate is being molded by the peanut, as opposed to the peanut being molded by the chocolate (not even sure what that would look like).
Bolas is the central element to this plane, or at least how it feels like. Yes, there is an outer layer of Egyptian stuff. But undead servants? Feels very Bolas-like, even if they're fluffed as mummies. That's the kind of thing I mean. It's... it's deeper than just what it looks like. If this place was Egyptian through and through, not Bolas' Egyptian World, it would feel different. Even if the outer surface didn't look that off.
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And now I remember why I stopped posting here... I'm not trying to prove anything. My posts clearly said I was guessing. Caranthir dismissed it out of hand, so I thought he might have seen something I missed to ruin the theory.
Thanks, Fiveod. Nothing more I can add to it. People really do not understand how burden of proof works recently...
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
While this is the real-world truth,
they have always used images of Quetzal-like birds on the cards.
I would hope that would give the Birds an elevated chance-
especially since they can't crew vehicles without jumping through hoops.
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Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I have read them. And having enough material to do a block isn't the same as having enough motivation to do a block. There is enough material to do a block on Japanese Mythology. They've pretty much ruled out doing that though because it isn't resonant enough with their target audience.
That and Bolas world really doesn't mesh nearly as well with Egyptian world as you or they are claiming. Amonkhet feels really warped from Egyptian Mythology compared to Theros and Greek, and it wasn't even as close as I'd have liked with Theros.
And given their desire for pop culture resonance you can certainly expect it to feel closer to Thor than Norse Mythology.
I'm a bit confused by the new method of PT invites, what does it mean by "number of invitations to the next RPTQ round"? Does that mean people who finish in the top x of an RPTQ queue for the next RPTQ?
Starting with Hour of Devastation though we're going lite on the Gatewatch. Unless planeswalkers are being swapped around, we can expect in Vraska in Ixalan and Ajani in (hopefully also renamed) Conquest of Power. I wonder if Wizards will take a villain's perspective for creative. Maybe we won't even get a Jace.
A completely unrelated thing, I'd love Ixalan block to have a focus on instants and sorceries, as that was theme of my Mesoamerican-inpsired block.
The players noticed it while developers didn't because developers work on a constantly changing file, and there are only a dozen of them, not thousands of people. It was obviously a shortcoming of developers to miss it, but sets are always going to be imperfect so it's not surprising mistakes happen. I will admit standard has been in a bad spot recently, but these things happen sometimes. It's not good, and it's not something that can't be avoided, but it's not always going to be easy to avoid. It's telling that people would react to this as being the fault of the individual developers and not that this shows they need more people or other resources.
That's easy to say with all the time they have actually had to be proven as problems. But is it actually true? The only real proof of these cards being problematic is using all the resources development did not have- the static time and the numbers of people.
Very little cards can ever be too strong for standard full stop, because that is one of the most limited contexts you can have. Again, balance is all about context and connections, and good balance is not based on mathematically equivalency but maximally enjoyable gameplay through the optimal implementation of strategical choice and variation. It's about fun, not making everything equal. Being too strong for standard full stop means something has to be stronger than everything else typically is by a very large margin. Lightning Bolt, for example, does not even qualify for this, though it is close. We are talking more like Time Walk for this category. Elvish Mystic is not in this category. Even more so, not only is is not being excluded for sheer power level, it has a good chance of coming back. All of which can be seen here:
I couldn't find anything as explicit for doomblade, but I'm pretty sure it's in the same situation.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
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#Defundthepolice
Still a better love story than Twilight :D. No, really, I'd liked that name more
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Do you even know Pharaonic Myth? At all? WotC captured the feel pretty well, even if it feels slightly off, but that was kinda the point.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Probably because they're pissy about Atlazan being leaked and don't care anymore now that they don't have full control over every single thing anymore (see the new Kozilek/colorless mana symbol leak).
If anything I get a sense this plane will be associated more so with air than water/undersea influences.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I do, that doesn't mean that the Plane as a whole isn't warped, at least to me. Even in Amonkhet it still feels way too Bolas, it's only going to get moreso that way with HoD. It's just a difference in how people view things is all, but I don't think citing Pharoahs makes this less Bolas World and more Egyptian.
Then you would obviously know that the ancient Egyptians were completely obsessed with death. Their whole lives revolved around having a balanced existence so they could enter the afterlife rather than face the oblivion that was Ammit/Ammut. To the Pharaonic Egyptians that was nothing more important than passing the judgment of Ma'at. They may have worshipped Ra, Osiris, and Horus, but it was Ma'at that determined if they entered the afterlife or not. Amonkhet captures that part of Egyptian culture as well as is possible in a CCG with as long a history as M:TG has. Yeah, it is not a perfect mirror of ancient Egypt, but it is not supposed to be.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I can know all of those things and still feel like the Bolas part outweighs the Egpytian part. When I look at how they built Amonkhet they worked very hard to make sure Bolas was entwined with just about every aspect of Amonkhet, while the Egyptian stuff is more what it looks like as opposed to the function or the like.
Can you elaborate? When I look at Amonkhet, then I see Egypt. The setting is a fertile land around a river surrounded by deserts. There is a keyword ability dedicated to giving us mummies. There is an even more expanded graveyard/death theme (aftermath, cycling). There are animal headed gods. There are legendary creatures based on historical egyptian figures. There are a vertical and a horizontal cycle of monumental buildings. The second sun clearly is inspired by the prominence of the egyptian sun deity.
That's all Egyptian tropes. I see Bolas in two aspects: (1.) He has inserted himself into the mythology as a central figure: The God-Pharaoh. (2.) His horns/scarves are added to the egyptian aesthetics.
What else is there?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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This is why I tried to use the core and coating analogy. Or... let's say you have a chocolate-covered peanut. Bolas, in this metaphor, is the peanut. Chocolate is the Egyptian element. They are both there. But the chocolate is being molded by the peanut, as opposed to the peanut being molded by the chocolate (not even sure what that would look like).
Bolas is the central element to this plane, or at least how it feels like. Yes, there is an outer layer of Egyptian stuff. But undead servants? Feels very Bolas-like, even if they're fluffed as mummies. That's the kind of thing I mean. It's... it's deeper than just what it looks like. If this place was Egyptian through and through, not Bolas' Egyptian World, it would feel different. Even if the outer surface didn't look that off.