I have neither the skill to correctly and accurately analyze this set in the context of current and future formats after 12 hours of exposure, nor the hubris to delude myself into believing that I do.
Truthfully any 5 color tribe (slivers, scarecrows, elementals, dragons, etc.) seems like it won't happen simply because WotC refuses to print reasonable mana bases in these products. Having 1 or 2 five color decks against a 2 or 3 color deck will not play well. While those of us here on this forum probably disassemble the decks and construct real decks, WotC knows that a lot of kitchen table Magic players just play out of the box and never change the deck.
While I understand they can't put $75 worth of value in a $35 deck, maybe cutting back on the creature/spell reprints and giving a little more in the land section wouldn't kill them. I'm not asking for fetches or shocks, but how about checklands, scry lands (Theros Temples),Odyssey filters or pain lands? One of the hardest things for a new commander player is putting together a mana base for more than 1 or 2 decks. While I have a playset of everything I could need, not everyone is in my situation.
Challenge Accepted!
Here is a list of options to include in any budget 5-color deck:
While almost all of the above mentioned cards have seen reprints in Commander products, there are 2 issues I see:
1) They never give more than 5 or 6 of them - which just isn't enough to support 5 color play
2) Almost all of those enter tapped, and those that get other lands tend to put them into play tapped. The deck using them just can't keep up with the land drops of 2 color decks.
^ Mana Confluence seems unlikely from that list, but who knows. City Of Brass I can actually see due to it getting a mass printing in a Modern Event Deck already.
Truthfully any 5 color tribe (slivers, scarecrows, elementals, dragons, etc.) seems like it won't happen simply because WotC refuses to print reasonable mana bases in these products. Having 1 or 2 five color decks against a 2 or 3 color deck will not play well. While those of us here on this forum probably disassemble the decks and construct real decks, WotC knows that a lot of kitchen table Magic players just play out of the box and never change the deck.
While I understand they can't put $75 worth of value in a $35 deck, maybe cutting back on the creature/spell reprints and giving a little more in the land section wouldn't kill them. I'm not asking for fetches or shocks, but how about checklands, scry lands (Theros Temples),Odyssey filters or pain lands? One of the hardest things for a new commander player is putting together a mana base for more than 1 or 2 decks. While I have a playset of everything I could need, not everyone is in my situation.
Challenge Accepted!
Here is a list of options to include in any budget 5-color deck:
Coming up with a list isn't the hard part, and no one declared a challenge that you do so. Now, take the list and truthfully say you won't run into mana fixing and speed issues (seriously, 16 of those cards come into play tapped) against a 2-3 color deck.
Truthfully any 5 color tribe (slivers, scarecrows, elementals, dragons, etc.) seems like it won't happen simply because WotC refuses to print reasonable mana bases in these products. Having 1 or 2 five color decks against a 2 or 3 color deck will not play well. While those of us here on this forum probably disassemble the decks and construct real decks, WotC knows that a lot of kitchen table Magic players just play out of the box and never change the deck.
While I understand they can't put $75 worth of value in a $35 deck, maybe cutting back on the creature/spell reprints and giving a little more in the land section wouldn't kill them. I'm not asking for fetches or shocks, but how about checklands, scry lands (Theros Temples),Odyssey filters or pain lands? One of the hardest things for a new commander player is putting together a mana base for more than 1 or 2 decks. While I have a playset of everything I could need, not everyone is in my situation.
Challenge Accepted!
Here is a list of options to include in any budget 5-color deck:
Coming up with a list isn't the hard part, and no one declared a challenge that you do so. Now, take the list and truthfully say you won't run into mana fixing and speed issues (seriously, 16 of those cards come into play tapped) against a 2-3 color deck.
It would help if wizards threw price out the window and stuffed value into the manabase. The problem is how they manage the print runs. Given the decks come in sets I think they print all the cards across the decks on one sheet that then gets cut and sorted. What they need to do is print decks with all the cards for one deck repeated four times and then cut and assemble for each deck. That way if one gets too pricey they can focus on rebuilding that one deck.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Truthfully any 5 color tribe (slivers, scarecrows, elementals, dragons, etc.) seems like it won't happen simply because WotC refuses to print reasonable mana bases in these products. Having 1 or 2 five color decks against a 2 or 3 color deck will not play well. While those of us here on this forum probably disassemble the decks and construct real decks, WotC knows that a lot of kitchen table Magic players just play out of the box and never change the deck.
While I understand they can't put $75 worth of value in a $35 deck, maybe cutting back on the creature/spell reprints and giving a little more in the land section wouldn't kill them. I'm not asking for fetches or shocks, but how about checklands, scry lands (Theros Temples),Odyssey filters or pain lands? One of the hardest things for a new commander player is putting together a mana base for more than 1 or 2 decks. While I have a playset of everything I could need, not everyone is in my situation.
Challenge Accepted!
Here is a list of options to include in any budget 5-color deck:
Coming up with a list isn't the hard part, and no one declared a challenge that you do so. Now, take the list and truthfully say you won't run into mana fixing and speed issues (seriously, 16 of those cards come into play tapped) against a 2-3 color deck.
Nay-saying is easy when you don't bother to think about an issue, or if all you care about is getting expensive reprints. First of all, providing a list of "options" in no way implies that I expect such a deck to be built exclusively with those options. Secondly, a 5-color deck does not require an even distribution of colors; 5-color dragons would probably be Jund-focused. Thirdly, here is an opportunity for WotC to make *new* budget options in support of 5-color decks. Fourthly, pre-cons are never competitive-speed products. Fifthly, your wording implies dueling rather than multi-player play, which is not how these products are expected to be played. Sixthly, aggressive speed doesn't have to be an issue if all of the pre-con decks are equally slow.
If you were seriously expecting these preconstructed Commander decks to be tournament competitive straight out of the box sacrificing the fun you can have with your friends, well, I don't know what to tell you.
Wizards did a 5-color mana base in the Coalition duel deck of Phyrexia vs. the Coalition. It was 5-color against mono-black. When I played it, it worked pretty well as a duel deck pair. Of course, it was primarily Naya, with only a single Island and a single Swamp, but it worked. So perhaps there is hope for 5-color?
(It was not great. I know that. It was clunky and cheap. But it worked well enough to fight another pre-con.)
I've suggested WUBRG tribal decks before. The trick I found is to choose a central color to build around, and make sure each colored card in the precon is of that color and that most lands in the deck produce that color. For example, a WUBRG Elf deck would obviously choose green as its central color. Thus, the majority of cards in that deck are green and the majority of lands produce green. Such a deck includes the sixtrilandsthatproducegreenmana as well as a selection of duals that all produce green mana. Finally, the face legend of the deck is a monogreen Elf with a WUBRG ability.
Such are the techniques I would use if you wanted a cycle of WUBRG decks. Thing is, we're not getting a cycle of five this time, so my approach doesn't work as well here. I expect most of the decks will be two or three color; four color was just done, and five color risks overshadowing other decks (not that they haven't included them in cycles of four before). I find myself leaning toward tricolor decks, perhaps two shard and two wedge, though the mix of dual and tricolor provides better color balancing.
At the very least I expect that each color will appear in at least one deck; it would be foolish to leave one color out entirely.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I sure hope we get some more people quoting that immense post that is just a list of cardnames in full. It really helps with keeping the thread readable. :eyeroll:
Such are the techniques I would use if you wanted a cycle of WUBRG decks. Thing is, we're not getting a cycle of five this time, so my approach doesn't work as well here. I expect most of the decks will be two or three color; four color was just done, and five color risks overshadowing other decks (not that they haven't included them in cycles of four before). I find myself leaning toward tricolor decks, perhaps two shard and two wedge, though the mix of dual and tricolor provides better color balancing.
Yep, this pretty much sums up my thoughts. I hope for a fivecolored deck and three decks from the two-three color range, but wouldn't be surprised with four two-three color decks.
I would be mildly surprised if they try to make a check mark behind not only five-colored, but also colorless. I would generally not expect it, but since they mention that one of the tribes might be a surprise, maybe we get Construct/Thopter/Golem as one of the tribes. It's extremely out there though.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
With all the new cards being printed, I somehow doubt we will get elves since ... a new elf ia kinda hard to do while staying true to the color identity ... I hope goblins are not one since krenko is annoying enough already... And zombies I hope not since we already have Gissa, G&G, Lilianna, and Grimgrin...
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
[quote from="ConstantMists »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/774890-commander-2017-announcement-only-4-decks-based-on?comment=350"]Truthfully any 5 color tribe (slivers, scarecrows, elementals, dragons, etc.) seems like it won't happen simply because WotC refuses to print reasonable mana bases in these products. Having 1 or 2 five color decks against a 2 or 3 color deck will not play well. While those of us here on this forum probably disassemble the decks and construct real decks, WotC knows that a lot of kitchen table Magic players just play out of the box and never change the deck.
While I understand they can't put $75 worth of value in a $35 deck, maybe cutting back on the creature/spell reprints and giving a little more in the land section wouldn't kill them. I'm not asking for fetches or shocks, but how about checklands, scry lands (Theros Temples),Odyssey filters or pain lands? One of the hardest things for a new commander player is putting together a mana base for more than 1 or 2 decks. While I have a playset of everything I could need, not everyone is in my situation.
Challenge Accepted
Coming up with a list isn't the hard part, and no one declared a challenge that you do so. Now, take the list and truthfully say you won't run into mana fixing and speed issues (seriously, 16 of those cards come into play tapped) against a 2-3 color deck.
Nay-saying is easy when you don't bother to think about an issue, or if all you care about is getting expensive reprints. First of all, providing a list of "options" in no way implies that I expect such a deck to be built exclusively with those options. Secondly, a 5-color deck does not require an even distribution of colors; 5-color dragons would probably be Jund-focused. Thirdly, here is an opportunity for WotC to make *new* budget options in support of 5-color decks. Fourthly, pre-cons are never competitive-speed products. Fifthly, your wording implies dueling rather than multi-player play, which is not how these products are expected to be played. Sixthly, aggressive speed doesn't have to be an issue if all of the pre-con decks are equally slow.
You assume a lot, and you assume a lot incorrectly.
A true 5-color deck will never really be a thing for a pre-constructed deck, but they will always go for a green-based one, as putting land searching into the deck helps tremendously and allows you to cast spells across all colors.
Basicly good chance one will be 5-color deck but only 2 or 3 colors will have a higher focus on the deck.
For dragons case which is e true most popular tribe if 5 color it will probably Be more BRG color focused. Especially because Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund needs a desperate reprint
Everyone is focusing on 5 color, however I'm over hear thinking this is what Wizards was hinting at back in the day when they said they wouldn't be oppossed to making a colorless commander deck if the time was right.
So here is the chance for even Karn, Silver Golem artifact tribal, or my personal guess: Eldrazi Tribal.
Everyone is focusing on 5 color, however I'm over hear thinking this is what Wizards was hinting at back in the day when they said they wouldn't be oppossed to making a colorless commander deck if the time was right.
So here is the chance for even Karn, Silver Golem artifact tribal, or my personal guess: Eldrazi Tribal.
Exactly that why Eldrazi has atvatange popular and interesting than people thing the only haters is the BFZ/ENM stories
And people think the most iconic are getting the spots no. Dragons or slivers is the only acceptions.
By the way can I have the source of that I do believe they said that.
If you were seriously expecting these preconstructed Commander decks to be tournament competitive straight out of the box sacrificing the fun you can have with your friends, well, I don't know what to tell you.
Despite your criticism I do think they do a good job of making the decks fairly competitive out of the box. Sure, maybe not for your Duel Commander infinite combo lock games where you're running the best decks against other tier one decks, but Wizards provides a lot of Commander staples for these lists and almost always they're worth more than their face value.
I bet there is at least one five color deck, and I believe it will be for Elementals. It will be centered in Red and Green, so most of the Mana Base will match, but have lots of cards that can ramp you Lands to get that black, blue, and white.
You make it sound impossible to create a budget five color Mana base, but realistically it's not. Sure you might not get your fetch lands in it, but it's not like it won't work without it.
Besides, the entire idea of this C17 set goes against the normal even color division of the typical structured five decks. With the color wheel gone, it seems obvious they'll try something outrageous like a five color deck.
Anyone who is not expecting at least two or three of the following is setting themselves up for disappointment:
Zombies
Goblins
Elves
Dragons
Slivers
These are the five most popular tribes in the format (source EDHREC). Wizards wants to not only give the players what they want, but they also want to ensure that the decks will be popular and sell. A WUB Zombie would make tons of players happy and it would encourage more players to use cards from Amonkhet.
Just because wizards has created a legendary creature of the tribe before doesn't mean they won't or shouldn't do it again. This is especially noteworthy in a singleton format where new legends and support cards will make players that already have tribal decks of these types better.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't expect a surprise or two. There's a decent chance there will be a deck or two of tribes not in the top five, but still in the top ten (Vampires, Wizards, Humans, Angels, etc.) Perhaps there will be one deck that is a total surprise. There will probably be decks that are two tribal types. For example, a Human and Wizard tribal deck. The main point I'm making is the tribes that are the most popular in the format and in the games history will be supported.
I think they might do angels as the off the wall "tribe" =) People were begging for Serra for Commander 2015, and they didn't get it, but Wizards said they heard the cry for her.
I wonder if they are going to focus the tribes on their main colors but have a way to have other colors in them.
Like a blue black zombie that says while this is your commander you can have zombies of any color alignment in your library. Once per turn you may cast a zombie from your graveyard and spend mana as though it were any color to cast it.
Everyone should learn from this
Here is a list of options to include in any budget 5-color deck:
And here are some "premium" options that could reasonably see reprint:
While almost all of the above mentioned cards have seen reprints in Commander products, there are 2 issues I see:
1) They never give more than 5 or 6 of them - which just isn't enough to support 5 color play
2) Almost all of those enter tapped, and those that get other lands tend to put them into play tapped. The deck using them just can't keep up with the land drops of 2 color decks.
I think they would do Painlands too.
Coming up with a list isn't the hard part, and no one declared a challenge that you do so. Now, take the list and truthfully say you won't run into mana fixing and speed issues (seriously, 16 of those cards come into play tapped) against a 2-3 color deck.
It would help if wizards threw price out the window and stuffed value into the manabase. The problem is how they manage the print runs. Given the decks come in sets I think they print all the cards across the decks on one sheet that then gets cut and sorted. What they need to do is print decks with all the cards for one deck repeated four times and then cut and assemble for each deck. That way if one gets too pricey they can focus on rebuilding that one deck.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
(It was not great. I know that. It was clunky and cheap. But it worked well enough to fight another pre-con.)
Such are the techniques I would use if you wanted a cycle of WUBRG decks. Thing is, we're not getting a cycle of five this time, so my approach doesn't work as well here. I expect most of the decks will be two or three color; four color was just done, and five color risks overshadowing other decks (not that they haven't included them in cycles of four before). I find myself leaning toward tricolor decks, perhaps two shard and two wedge, though the mix of dual and tricolor provides better color balancing.
At the very least I expect that each color will appear in at least one deck; it would be foolish to leave one color out entirely.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Yep, this pretty much sums up my thoughts. I hope for a fivecolored deck and three decks from the two-three color range, but wouldn't be surprised with four two-three color decks.
I would be mildly surprised if they try to make a check mark behind not only five-colored, but also colorless. I would generally not expect it, but since they mention that one of the tribes might be a surprise, maybe we get Construct/Thopter/Golem as one of the tribes. It's extremely out there though.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
You assume a lot, and you assume a lot incorrectly.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
For dragons case which is e true most popular tribe if 5 color it will probably Be more BRG color focused. Especially because Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund needs a desperate reprint
So here is the chance for even Karn, Silver Golem artifact tribal, or my personal guess: Eldrazi Tribal.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
Exactly that why Eldrazi has atvatange popular and interesting than people thing the only haters is the BFZ/ENM stories
And people think the most iconic are getting the spots no. Dragons or slivers is the only acceptions.
By the way can I have the source of that I do believe they said that.
Despite your criticism I do think they do a good job of making the decks fairly competitive out of the box. Sure, maybe not for your Duel Commander infinite combo lock games where you're running the best decks against other tier one decks, but Wizards provides a lot of Commander staples for these lists and almost always they're worth more than their face value.
I bet there is at least one five color deck, and I believe it will be for Elementals. It will be centered in Red and Green, so most of the Mana Base will match, but have lots of cards that can ramp you Lands to get that black, blue, and white.
You make it sound impossible to create a budget five color Mana base, but realistically it's not. Sure you might not get your fetch lands in it, but it's not like it won't work without it.
Besides, the entire idea of this C17 set goes against the normal even color division of the typical structured five decks. With the color wheel gone, it seems obvious they'll try something outrageous like a five color deck.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Just because wizards has created a legendary creature of the tribe before doesn't mean they won't or shouldn't do it again. This is especially noteworthy in a singleton format where new legends and support cards will make players that already have tribal decks of these types better.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't expect a surprise or two. There's a decent chance there will be a deck or two of tribes not in the top five, but still in the top ten (Vampires, Wizards, Humans, Angels, etc.) Perhaps there will be one deck that is a total surprise. There will probably be decks that are two tribal types. For example, a Human and Wizard tribal deck. The main point I'm making is the tribes that are the most popular in the format and in the games history will be supported.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Like a blue black zombie that says while this is your commander you can have zombies of any color alignment in your library. Once per turn you may cast a zombie from your graveyard and spend mana as though it were any color to cast it.
Merfolk maybe since we lack a legendary merfolk lord besides Sygg.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
That and commander 2014 green deck is elf tribal 24 out of 36 or 37 creatures is elfs and that deck is getting reprinted in commander anotology
Knowing stores some will split into seperate decks so incase someone only wants one of them.