A Shapeshifter tribal deck? Well, if you discount the Changelings...oh, wait. There are 53 black border Shapeshifters available to UB, including 34 monoblue, 5 monoblack, 1 hybrid, 3 gold, and 10 colorless artifacts. That's heavily weighted towards blue. I'm inclined to think this is a Rogue or Wizard deck with a face card whose minions happen to closely resemble one another.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
A Shapeshifter tribal deck? Well, if you discount the Changelings...oh, wait. There are 53 black border Shapeshifters available to UB, including 34 monoblue, 5 monoblack, 1 hybrid, 3 gold, and 10 colorless artifacts. That's heavily weighted towards blue. I'm inclined to think this is a Rogue or Wizard deck with a face card whose minions happen to closely resemble one another.
Well with 53 that gives room to print 10 new ones, 10 support card and fillin the rest of the deck with 30 shapeshifters and 30 "Sorta good stuff." Cards. Draw Spells, Kill spells ect.
It could also have lots of clone effects if it's shapeshifters
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Night has bring me some ideas and reinforce my ideas about Shapeshifter theory adding a piece to the puzzle. She must have the role of near the Edgar role in Vampire deck. This for a symmetry can be observe in four new commander: Ur-Dragon and Edgar are known in mtg storyline. Arhabo and NamelessOne are unknown. Ur-Dragon and Arhabo could be assigned to a similar role. Also Edgar and NamelessOne could have a similar role of representation of Vampire and Shapeshifter. She always can be Lavaz in a past role, before abandon white to become Dimir Guildmaster (in my idea deck is BUW). Shapeshifter theory seems have a kind of solidity.
Thinking about I've a new idea. We all take for granted Edgar is a Vampire tribal deck but, as I say before, is not simple for me to imagine it as an Avatar. What about a Warrior tribal deck? With a vampire subtheme? Using symmetry whe could have two Avatar (one known and one not) and two Guildmaster (warrior and rogue for example). Whe don't know if Edgar and NamelessOne are Avatar. They could have Guildmaster, or something on, as second type (like Avatar for Ur-Dragon and Arhabo). In Edgar storyline there's no reference to Warrior class, he was an Alchemist. But the Armor his servants help him to wear is a Warrior Armor as anyone can see. This is an alternative theory not expected and with some holes. But I like it.
I doubt Edgar would be a Warrior, as the oldest, most political and conservative vampire. And seeing as how Innistrad vampires are most either Wizards or Knights.
Vampire with knight sub-theme could be a thing, but sincerelly, a waste of space. Knights are too diverse in ther racial subtype and would work better as Abzan or Esper because the U and G Knights are miles better than the R Knigths.
You are right about Knigths. Please read Knigth instead Warrior. It's my fault I thought about Knights and wrote Warriors.
About other consideration I prefer the Shapeshifter theory but this second theory could be a valid alternative. And satisfy my aversion to consider Edgar and NamelessOne Avatars. If you take a look to Ur-Dragon and Arhobo they look a bit ethereal and mythic. Edgar and NamelessOne are not etheral seems more part of reality.
I think it is very safe to assume that all four face cards are avatars, since all four of them logically should have eminence as their new keyword.
Avatar:
1) the descendant of a deity to the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape.
2) an embodiment or personification, as of a principle attitude or view of life.
The dragon and cat use the first definition of the word, the vampire and lady use the second. Avatar doesn't have to strictly be like Avatar of woe, especially if they are going for a running theme for their keyword eminence.
The Ur-dragon was worshiped as a God by the other dragons according to flavor text, this cat seems godlike, Edgar is the progenitor of vampires for an entire plane, and this lady looks important enough to be bowed to for something. All four cards have supplicants bowing, serving or hanging out with their avatar.
I still think the "unknown" deck is going to be Grixis Wizards. Although the art looks as if it would be a Dimir cleric, the Grixis Wizards seem to make the most sense.
I think it is very safe to assume that all four face cards are avatars, since all four of them logically should have eminence as their new keyword.
Avatar:
1) the descendant of a deity to the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape.
2) an embodiment or personification, as of a principle attitude or view of life.
You could be right. Have you some references about Avatar mtg definition? Take a look to Avatar creature here, in a big majority of cases they have an ethereal component in images, excluded some old images and strange beasts.
About Eminence, you pair this ability and Avatar really strong. But also a "Guildmaster" can have Eminence ability.
If they are all Avatars I trust in Shapeshifter theory.
I think it is very safe to assume that all four face cards are avatars, since all four of them logically should have eminence as their new keyword.
Avatar:
1) the descendant of a deity to the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape.
2) an embodiment or personification, as of a principle attitude or view of life.
The dragon and cat use the first definition of the word, the vampire and lady use the second. Avatar doesn't have to strictly be like Avatar of woe, especially if they are going for a running theme for their keyword eminence.
The Ur-dragon was worshiped as a God by the other dragons according to flavor text, this cat seems godlike, Edgar is the progenitor of vampires for an entire plane, and this lady looks important enough to be bowed to for something. All four cards have supplicants bowing, serving or hanging out with their avatar.
Jesus, not this again.
There's no reason why eminence needs to be attached to avatars, and two data points isn't enough to establish a pattern.
A bit harsh, but sure, it doesn't mean they all have to be exactly that. Looking at all four leaked arts seems like it could be a possibility still, so I think it is a fair guess.
Do we know where the Cat commander is from, plane-wise?
Not yet, unfortunately we can't determine any clues from the name or art. The vampire is the only "safe" bet at the moment, if he is indeed Edgar Markov.
I'm just curious how you can even tribally support shapeshifters, do they get a lord that just says "Each creature you control that is a copy of another creature gets +1+1"? I mean a deck of clone effects is an awesome idea I just find it hard to give a tribal unity/support to a creature type that only exists to copy other creature types.
Treat them like illusions I guess, give them hexproof, let them be able to reclone for mana, tutor for other shapeshifter, etc. I agree, it isn't very optimal, but I'm not sure of any other creature types that might work with what we can guess from the picture unfortunately.
I'm just curious how you can even tribally support shapeshifters, do they get a lord that just says "Each creature you control that is a copy of another creature gets +1+1"? I mean a deck of clone effects is an awesome idea I just find it hard to give a tribal unity/support to a creature type that only exists to copy other creature types.
I think it would be more interesting if it was something that wasn't so linear like a +1/+1 boost.
Something like
"At the beginning of each upkeep, you may have target Shapeshifter become a copy of target creature until end of turn."
I think it is very safe to assume that all four face cards are avatars, since all four of them logically should have eminence as their new keyword.
Avatar:
1) the descendant of a deity to the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape.
2) an embodiment or personification, as of a principle attitude or view of life.
The dragon and cat use the first definition of the word, the vampire and lady use the second. Avatar doesn't have to strictly be like Avatar of woe, especially if they are going for a running theme for their keyword eminence.
The Ur-dragon was worshiped as a God by the other dragons according to flavor text, this cat seems godlike, Edgar is the progenitor of vampires for an entire plane, and this lady looks important enough to be bowed to for something. All four cards have supplicants bowing, serving or hanging out with their avatar.
Jesus, not this again.
There's no reason why eminence needs to be attached to avatars, and two data points isn't enough to establish a pattern.
Eminence tied to a legendary who is also an avatar to a tribe makes sense and is cohesive in card design. Not doing so is more baffling as what makes 50% of the face legendarys (Cat and Dragon) so important that they get to be avatars but the other half (Vampires and ???) are not as important to be avatars to their respective tribes. That is the reason they would need it.
Especially with Edgar Markov who started the Vampire lines in the first place on Innistrad. That he was the first of the Vampires on Innistrad. He is effectively the Adam of his kind. If that doesn't make a Vampire an Avatar, I don't know what would.
A bit harsh, but sure, it doesn't mean they all have to be exactly that. Looking at all four leaked arts seems like it could be a possibility still, so I think it is a fair guess.
Sorry if I was brusque. It's just that I've already had this argument before, a few pages back, with a guy who was stubbornly refusing to admit that the other two might not be avatars. It gets tiresome having to repeat the same points all over again.
I'm not saying they can't be avatars, I'm just saying we shouldn't assume they are.
I'm just curious how you can even tribally support shapeshifters, do they get a lord that just says "Each creature you control that is a copy of another creature gets +1+1"? I mean a deck of clone effects is an awesome idea I just find it hard to give a tribal unity/support to a creature type that only exists to copy other creature types.
Treat them like illusions I guess, give them hexproof, let them be able to reclone for mana, tutor for other shapeshifter, etc. I agree, it isn't very optimal, but I'm not sure of any other creature types that might work with what we can guess from the picture unfortunately.
The problem, though, is that clones lose all of their original qualities in favor of what they're copying. So any card that does something like, say, grant all shapeshifters hexproof, wouldn't actually help most of the tribe. (Unless you're exclusively copying non-clone shapeshifters, I guess. But that's pretty limiting.) I'm not even certain if the game can track whether a card is copying another card, which eliminates a lot of work-arounds to that hurdle. The best you can do are things that affect shapeshifters not in play, like tutoring for them, or reducing the cost of shapeshifter spells. So options are limited.
And as for what other tribe she could possibly be, I'd like to remind you (and everyone else in this thread) that art is not definitive proof of anything. She doesn't really look like a wizard, but she still might be one. She doesn't really look like a white card, but she still might be one. Things like UBR wizards or WB clerics are not off the table by any stretch. It wouldn't be the first time, and almost certainly won't be the last time, that the art didn't perfectly match the card it was on.
And as for what other tribe she could possibly be, I'd like to remind you (and everyone else in this thread) that art is not definitive proof of anything. She doesn't really look like a wizard, but she still might be one. She doesn't really look like a white card, but she still might be one. Things like UBR wizards or WB clerics are not off the table by any stretch. It wouldn't be the first time, and almost certainly won't be the last time, that the art didn't perfectly match the card it was on.
They are going off of the box. Which has two identifiable symbols. They are blue and black. The question is if it is dual, tri or quad colored.
A bit harsh, but sure, it doesn't mean they all have to be exactly that. Looking at all four leaked arts seems like it could be a possibility still, so I think it is a fair guess.
Sorry if I was brusque. It's just that I've already had this argument before, a few pages back, with a guy who was stubbornly refusing to admit that the other two might not be avatars. It gets tiresome having to repeat the same points all over again.
I'm not saying they can't be avatars, I'm just saying we shouldn't assume they are.
I'm just curious how you can even tribally support shapeshifters, do they get a lord that just says "Each creature you control that is a copy of another creature gets +1+1"? I mean a deck of clone effects is an awesome idea I just find it hard to give a tribal unity/support to a creature type that only exists to copy other creature types.
Treat them like illusions I guess, give them hexproof, let them be able to reclone for mana, tutor for other shapeshifter, etc. I agree, it isn't very optimal, but I'm not sure of any other creature types that might work with what we can guess from the picture unfortunately.
The problem, though, is that clones lose all of their original qualities in favor of what they're copying. So any card that does something like, say, grant all shapeshifters hexproof, wouldn't actually help most of the tribe. (Unless you're exclusively copying non-clone shapeshifters, I guess. But that's pretty limiting.) I'm not even certain if the game can track whether a card is copying another card, which eliminates a lot of work-arounds to that hurdle. The best you can do are things that affect shapeshifters not in play, like tutoring for them, or reducing the cost of shapeshifter spells. So options are limited.
And as for what other tribe she could possibly be, I'd like to remind you (and everyone else in this thread) that art is not definitive proof of anything. She doesn't really look like a wizard, but she still might be one. She doesn't really look like a white card, but she still might be one. Things like UBR wizards or WB clerics are not off the table by any stretch. It wouldn't be the first time, and almost certainly won't be the last time, that the art didn't perfectly match the card it was on.
All very true, and no offense taken, I only came back to the thread after the images were leaked and didn't go back which is on me. Wizards has made some very strange choices in the past for art, I completely agree. Suggesting shapeshifter is more a theory than anything, it honestly does look like it should be cleric/wizard/rogue more so. Here's hoping the first podcast Wednesday includes the face cards finally!
And as for what other tribe she could possibly be, I'd like to remind you (and everyone else in this thread) that art is not definitive proof of anything. She doesn't really look like a wizard, but she still might be one. She doesn't really look like a white card, but she still might be one. Things like UBR wizards or WB clerics are not off the table by any stretch. It wouldn't be the first time, and almost certainly won't be the last time, that the art didn't perfectly match the card it was on.
I think this is true, except that the deck probably has blue in it just based off the actual box itself. I feel like, just from a marketing perspective at least, it wouldn't make sense to throw a bunch of blue on the box itself if blue wasn't featured in the deck.
I'm just curious how you can even tribally support shapeshifters, do they get a lord that just says "Each creature you control that is a copy of another creature gets +1+1"? I mean a deck of clone effects is an awesome idea I just find it hard to give a tribal unity/support to a creature type that only exists to copy other creature types.
My proposed eminence effect a few pages back used the wording. "Creature you control whose original creature type is a Shapeshifter." as the targeting requirement, another route they could go is making Shapeshifters Cost less, Returning them from graveyard to your hand, Tutoring for them. There is a design area for tribal that includes things beyond. "Pump my guys!"
That is why I imagine Grixis Shapeshifters as a Tribal Wedge could be really nice since Red can give it effects like "Whenever a creature you control enters the battlefield give it +1/+1 and haste until end of turn." so you can "flicker." them to copy something fun to attack with..and be able to attack that same turn.
I'm just curious how you can even tribally support shapeshifters, do they get a lord that just says "Each creature you control that is a copy of another creature gets +1+1"? I mean a deck of clone effects is an awesome idea I just find it hard to give a tribal unity/support to a creature type that only exists to copy other creature types.
Shapeshifters come in three flavors. Copies, Changelings, and -lings. There's not reason a shapeshifter deck would have to be all about copying other creatures. They're also about becoming other creature types and playing around with their power/toughness and abilities. That's a fair amount of space to play around in.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Well with 53 that gives room to print 10 new ones, 10 support card and fillin the rest of the deck with 30 shapeshifters and 30 "Sorta good stuff." Cards. Draw Spells, Kill spells ect.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Thinking about I've a new idea. We all take for granted Edgar is a Vampire tribal deck but, as I say before, is not simple for me to imagine it as an Avatar. What about a Warrior tribal deck? With a vampire subtheme? Using symmetry whe could have two Avatar (one known and one not) and two Guildmaster (warrior and rogue for example). Whe don't know if Edgar and NamelessOne are Avatar. They could have Guildmaster, or something on, as second type (like Avatar for Ur-Dragon and Arhabo). In Edgar storyline there's no reference to Warrior class, he was an Alchemist. But the Armor his servants help him to wear is a Warrior Armor as anyone can see. This is an alternative theory not expected and with some holes. But I like it.
WUBDakkon, a Tribute
BChainer, the demonlord!
RWAurelia
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council
Vampire with knight sub-theme could be a thing, but sincerelly, a waste of space. Knights are too diverse in ther racial subtype and would work better as Abzan or Esper because the U and G Knights are miles better than the R Knigths.
About other consideration I prefer the Shapeshifter theory but this second theory could be a valid alternative. And satisfy my aversion to consider Edgar and NamelessOne Avatars. If you take a look to Ur-Dragon and Arhobo they look a bit ethereal and mythic. Edgar and NamelessOne are not etheral seems more part of reality.
WUBDakkon, a Tribute
BChainer, the demonlord!
RWAurelia
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council
Avatar:
1) the descendant of a deity to the earth in an incarnate form or some manifest shape.
2) an embodiment or personification, as of a principle attitude or view of life.
The dragon and cat use the first definition of the word, the vampire and lady use the second. Avatar doesn't have to strictly be like Avatar of woe, especially if they are going for a running theme for their keyword eminence.
The Ur-dragon was worshiped as a God by the other dragons according to flavor text, this cat seems godlike, Edgar is the progenitor of vampires for an entire plane, and this lady looks important enough to be bowed to for something. All four cards have supplicants bowing, serving or hanging out with their avatar.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
You could be right. Have you some references about Avatar mtg definition? Take a look to Avatar creature here, in a big majority of cases they have an ethereal component in images, excluded some old images and strange beasts.
About Eminence, you pair this ability and Avatar really strong. But also a "Guildmaster" can have Eminence ability.
If they are all Avatars I trust in Shapeshifter theory.
WUBDakkon, a Tribute
BChainer, the demonlord!
RWAurelia
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council
There's no reason why eminence needs to be attached to avatars, and two data points isn't enough to establish a pattern.
A bit harsh, but sure, it doesn't mean they all have to be exactly that. Looking at all four leaked arts seems like it could be a possibility still, so I think it is a fair guess.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Not yet, unfortunately we can't determine any clues from the name or art. The vampire is the only "safe" bet at the moment, if he is indeed Edgar Markov.
No
But good chance we will get that next week.
Treat them like illusions I guess, give them hexproof, let them be able to reclone for mana, tutor for other shapeshifter, etc. I agree, it isn't very optimal, but I'm not sure of any other creature types that might work with what we can guess from the picture unfortunately.
I think it would be more interesting if it was something that wasn't so linear like a +1/+1 boost.
Something like
"At the beginning of each upkeep, you may have target Shapeshifter become a copy of target creature until end of turn."
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Especially with Edgar Markov who started the Vampire lines in the first place on Innistrad. That he was the first of the Vampires on Innistrad. He is effectively the Adam of his kind. If that doesn't make a Vampire an Avatar, I don't know what would.
I'm not saying they can't be avatars, I'm just saying we shouldn't assume they are.
The problem, though, is that clones lose all of their original qualities in favor of what they're copying. So any card that does something like, say, grant all shapeshifters hexproof, wouldn't actually help most of the tribe. (Unless you're exclusively copying non-clone shapeshifters, I guess. But that's pretty limiting.) I'm not even certain if the game can track whether a card is copying another card, which eliminates a lot of work-arounds to that hurdle. The best you can do are things that affect shapeshifters not in play, like tutoring for them, or reducing the cost of shapeshifter spells. So options are limited.
And as for what other tribe she could possibly be, I'd like to remind you (and everyone else in this thread) that art is not definitive proof of anything. She doesn't really look like a wizard, but she still might be one. She doesn't really look like a white card, but she still might be one. Things like UBR wizards or WB clerics are not off the table by any stretch. It wouldn't be the first time, and almost certainly won't be the last time, that the art didn't perfectly match the card it was on.
They are going off of the box. Which has two identifiable symbols. They are blue and black. The question is if it is dual, tri or quad colored.
All very true, and no offense taken, I only came back to the thread after the images were leaked and didn't go back which is on me. Wizards has made some very strange choices in the past for art, I completely agree. Suggesting shapeshifter is more a theory than anything, it honestly does look like it should be cleric/wizard/rogue more so. Here's hoping the first podcast Wednesday includes the face cards finally!
I think this is true, except that the deck probably has blue in it just based off the actual box itself. I feel like, just from a marketing perspective at least, it wouldn't make sense to throw a bunch of blue on the box itself if blue wasn't featured in the deck.
My proposed eminence effect a few pages back used the wording. "Creature you control whose original creature type is a Shapeshifter." as the targeting requirement, another route they could go is making Shapeshifters Cost less, Returning them from graveyard to your hand, Tutoring for them. There is a design area for tribal that includes things beyond. "Pump my guys!"
That is why I imagine Grixis Shapeshifters as a Tribal Wedge could be really nice since Red can give it effects like "Whenever a creature you control enters the battlefield give it +1/+1 and haste until end of turn." so you can "flicker." them to copy something fun to attack with..and be able to attack that same turn.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
And I'm confident it's one of these
Cleric
Wizards
Rogue
Shapeshifter
And color combo is one of these
UB
WUB
UBR
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath