A monowhite Zombie Snake Hydra with trample; that's just plain surreal.
I have a feeling the red Embalm creature is going to be a Dragon with haste. Because why not add a 4/4 white Zombie Dragon with flying and haste to the mix? Of course, it could also be another goodsauce Jackal Warrior. Preferably with Haste. And maybe Double Strike?
Never//Return is giving me some serious Ravenloft: Stone Prophet vibes.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I don't see how Ruinous Path is better than Never. You have to pay 7, in one go, to get your 4/4 body, and 8 if you want it to work right away. This is always 7 for removal + a body, and, it doesn't have to be payed in one go. Remove the biggest threat, create a chump for the next threat. It's pretty efficient, and hitting all card types is relevant as it can shut off delerium pretty easily.
The Hydra is a limited bomb that will also see standard play. I hope we get many more embalmed fatties with lesser embalm costs.
Both are bad, and if you really want removal that hits planeswalkers dreadbore and hero's downfall are better cards.
Well good luck playing those in Standard...
Good luck getting me to play standard at all.
Sooo, what was the point of your original reply? Waters wet, sky's blue, haters hate I guess.
you know, the hydra doesn't seem terrible, but come on, if it isn't going to have something about growing new heads, just make it a Beast, I hate any time they don't do the head thing. change the iconic creature for green if you like, but that's what a hydra IS.
Actually, the Lernaean Hydra (the Hydra from the second labor of Heracles) being able to regrow its heads is FAR from a constant, in fact, it's not even present at all in the oldest know accounts of the story only being added in later renditions.
True, but the association between HYDras and water/swamp makes you wonder why they're green instead of black/blue!
Well, to be fair the accounts makes it sound more like the Hydra is living in a Bayou than an Underground Sea. So the Green makes more sense than Blue would have at least.
Everyone saying Aftermath is so bad is thinking of it like a fuse card. Obviously 4BBB to exile target creature or planeswalker and create a 2/2 black zombie token is miserable especially at sorcery speed. But the idea is that 1BB to destroy, and then later when you are flooded 3B to create a 2/2 and exile a card from grave is really strong as a lategame option. And, if you happen to be on seven mana and casting both sides simultaneously is beneficial you can do that too. Evaluate this more like Flashback, and less like you'd evaluate a split card with fuse.
Not to say I think a ton of the Aftermath cards are particularly good, but the constant complaining reminds me a lot of people saying Think Twice is unplayable because Jace's Ingenuity and Careful Consideration were legal at the same time.
With think twice you're paying 1 more for the second half of the card. With this one, considering that the effect of the card is found on 1 CMC cards, you're paying 3 more for the second half.
You're overpaying by more than 1 for Think Twice. There are multiple cards that cycle for U, so Think Twice overcharges you by 1 on the front end and 2 on the back end. In fact, I'd argue that "Draw a card" is not even worth one mana, considering cycling cards have other modes and there have been numerous cards that provide a card draw + additional value for U.
Everyone saying Aftermath is so bad is thinking of it like a fuse card. Obviously 4BBB to exile target creature or planeswalker and create a 2/2 black zombie token is miserable especially at sorcery speed. But the idea is that 1BB to destroy, and then later when you are flooded 3B to create a 2/2 and exile a card from grave is really strong as a lategame option. And, if you happen to be on seven mana and casting both sides simultaneously is beneficial you can do that too. Evaluate this more like Flashback, and less like you'd evaluate a split card with fuse.
Not to say I think a ton of the Aftermath cards are particularly good, but the constant complaining reminds me a lot of people saying Think Twice is unplayable because Jace's Ingenuity and Careful Consideration were legal at the same time.
With think twice you're paying 1 more for the second half of the card. With this one, considering that the effect of the card is found on 1 CMC cards, you're paying 3 more for the second half.
I mean yes, this still seems bad - it would be great if either side costed 1 less, or if either or both sides were Instant. I was more annoyed on reaction to Aftermath as a general mechanic. That being said, if Heart is banned and Gideon is also banned (or rotates out, along with Ruinous Path) this could still see standard play and it is not awful in EDH.
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you know, the hydra doesn't seem terrible, but come on, if it isn't going to have something about growing new heads, just make it a Beast, I hate any time they don't do the head thing. change the iconic creature for green if you like, but that's what a hydra IS.
Actually, the Lernaean Hydra (the Hydra from the second labor of Heracles) being able to regrow its heads is FAR from a constant, in fact, it's not even present at all in the oldest know accounts of the story only being added in later renditions.
In the Bible, angels were male and not initially mentioned having wings. the first dragons in most cultures didn't have wings or breathe fire, the sphinx didn't always have wings, and classic demons didn't have to take scary forms. MtG is about what pop culture has turned each of those creatures into over the years, not what they used to be. I wouldn't care so much, but Hydras are the only one of the 5 icons to not have something iconic left to them. there is nothing mechanically to set it apart from any old Wurm unless you go tribal. how many dragons can't fly?
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That being said, if Heart is banned and Gideon is also banned (or rotates out, along with Ruinous Path) this could still see standard play and it is not awful in EDH.
This show how bad cards can be playable just out of necessity. Ruinous Path and this one are bad, but it are the "less bad" options, so people will play them just because they don't have anything better. But seeing how some planeswalker opress standard, we can see how weak they truly are, and how poor they are at doing what was supposed to be their jobs.
I like Never//Return quite a bit.
You cannot compare it to Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path, it may not be instant but it is pure card advantage and while Ruinous Path CAN give you a creature too, Never//Return allows you too kill something turn 3 and make that token at any time during the game. I like this flexibility over Path and the card advantage over Downfall - except for when you need that instant answer. But i think at instant Never//Return would have been an overpowered card - and everybody would have complained in 3-4 weeks, because everyone is playing monoB-control ;).
As people will tell you, powerful threats demand powerful answers and that's not what we have in Standard right now. The only instant-speed planeswalker removal we have right now is Anguished Unmaking which has stricter mana requirements and is taxing on the user; Lightning Bolting yourself is definitely not good when playing most decks that run Gideon.
If Hero's Downfall is too powerful, then meet us halfway. Give us a version of Anguished Unmaking without the self-lightning bolt but limiting its use to only creatures or Planeswalkers. Or maybe at least reduce the taxing effect because 3 life is not insignificant. But leaving that slot for an instant planeswalker removal empty is just not healthy.
Why don't need instant speed Planeswalker removal? They'll get their first activation no matter what, and if you pass the turn they'll get a 2nd activation. You're going to kill it on your own turn regardless, so sorcery speed for Planeswalker is largely irrelevant. It would be nice if it was an instant for creatures, but everything would be nicer as an instant or with flash.
Sorcery speed is def relevant to removal of any kind. Sure, they can still hold priority and get the first activation, but being able to kill a walker on their turn, untap, and either develop your board or continue messing with your opponent's board is what most are people are looking for. It is meaningful interaction. Shoot, the option to kill a blocker at the end of their turn to allow your team to swing in on your turn, plus whatever else you do, is much better than having to use your removal on your turn.
I don't see how Ruinous Path is better than Never. You have to pay 7, in one go, to get your 4/4 body, and 8 if you want it to work right away. This is always 7 for removal + a body, and, it doesn't have to be payed in one go. Remove the biggest threat, create a chump for the next threat. It's pretty efficient, and hitting all card types is relevant as it can shut off delerium pretty easily.
The Hydra is a limited bomb that will also see standard play. I hope we get many more embalmed fatties with lesser embalm costs.
Both are bad, and if you really want removal that hits planeswalkers dreadbore and hero's downfall are better cards.
Well good luck playing those in Standard...
Good luck getting me to play standard at all.
Sooo, what was the point of your original reply? Waters wet, sky's blue, haters hate I guess.
I like Never//Return quite a bit.
You cannot compare it to Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path, it may not be instant but it is pure card advantage and while Ruinous Path CAN give you a creature too, Never//Return allows you too kill something turn 3 and make that token at any time during the game. I like this flexibility over Path and the card advantage over Downfall - except for when you need that instant answer. But i think at instant Never//Return would have been an overpowered card - and everybody would have complained in 3-4 weeks, because everyone is playing monoB-control ;).
As people will tell you, powerful threats demand powerful answers and that's not what we have in Standard right now. The only instant-speed planeswalker removal we have right now is Anguished Unmaking which has stricter mana requirements and is taxing on the user; Lightning Bolting yourself is definitely not good when playing most decks that run Gideon.
If Hero's Downfall is too powerful, then meet us halfway. Give us a version of Anguished Unmaking without the self-lightning bolt but limiting its use to only creatures or Planeswalkers. Or maybe at least reduce the taxing effect because 3 life is not insignificant. But leaving that slot for an instant planeswalker removal empty is just not healthy.
Why don't need instant speed Planeswalker removal? They'll get their first activation no matter what, and if you pass the turn they'll get a 2nd activation. You're going to kill it on your own turn regardless, so sorcery speed for Planeswalker is largely irrelevant. It would be nice if it was an instant for creatures, but everything would be nicer as an instant or with flash.
If the most important aspect of a planeswalker is the first activation, then not nearly as many people would be complaining about Gideon right now.
The need for that removal to be instant speed is due to the fact that Sorcery speed like Ruinous Path is a notable tempo loss. And as you pine out, yes it would be nice (also necessary) if it was instant to be used against creatures. A "dedicated" planeswalker removal shouldn't be against only planeswalkers; it needs to also have a flexibility of being used on a creature as well since most decks aren't heavy on Planeswalkers.
I like Never//Return quite a bit.
You cannot compare it to Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path, it may not be instant but it is pure card advantage and while Ruinous Path CAN give you a creature too, Never//Return allows you too kill something turn 3 and make that token at any time during the game. I like this flexibility over Path and the card advantage over Downfall - except for when you need that instant answer. But i think at instant Never//Return would have been an overpowered card - and everybody would have complained in 3-4 weeks, because everyone is playing monoB-control ;).
As people will tell you, powerful threats demand powerful answers and that's not what we have in Standard right now. The only instant-speed planeswalker removal we have right now is Anguished Unmaking which has stricter mana requirements and is taxing on the user; Lightning Bolting yourself is definitely not good when playing most decks that run Gideon.
If Hero's Downfall is too powerful, then meet us halfway. Give us a version of Anguished Unmaking without the self-lightning bolt but limiting its use to only creatures or Planeswalkers. Or maybe at least reduce the taxing effect because 3 life is not insignificant. But leaving that slot for an instant planeswalker removal empty is just not healthy.
Why don't need instant speed Planeswalker removal? They'll get their first activation no matter what, and if you pass the turn they'll get a 2nd activation. You're going to kill it on your own turn regardless, so sorcery speed for Planeswalker is largely irrelevant. It would be nice if it was an instant for creatures, but everything would be nicer as an instant or with flash.
Sorcery speed is def relevant to removal of any kind. Sure, they can still hold priority and get the first activation, but being able to kill a walker on their turn, untap, and either develop your board or continue messing with your opponent's board is what most are people are looking for. It is meaningful interaction. Shoot, the option to kill a blocker at the end of their turn to allow your team to swing in on your turn, plus whatever else you do, is much better than having to use your removal on your turn.
You are certainly correct, but couldn't you have done the same thing with Cancel and not given them the first activation? You want to hold Mana up in case they play something you can kill at instant speed, but that's just poor play. You should develop your board or play counterspells. You should not want a card that induces you to play nothing on your turn and then answers a card after the other card got value.
Yes, this card would be much better as an instant, but thinking removal needs to be instant speed is just conditioning based on 15+ years of all removal being instant speed. The way the game has evolved makes instant speed removal less necessary because you can't waste your Mana hoping to kill something.
Edit: replying to SC1987.
It's a temporary loss if you can't use your Mana the next turn. If they spent 3 Mana and you don't 3 Mana, there is no tempo loss. It would be a tempo loss if you held up Hero's Downfall Mana and they played around it and stranded your Mana. It's all relative.
I don't see how Ruinous Path is better than Never. You have to pay 7, in one go, to get your 4/4 body, and 8 if you want it to work right away. This is always 7 for removal + a body, and, it doesn't have to be payed in one go. Remove the biggest threat, create a chump for the next threat. It's pretty efficient, and hitting all card types is relevant as it can shut off delerium pretty easily.
The Hydra is a limited bomb that will also see standard play. I hope we get many more embalmed fatties with lesser embalm costs.
Both are bad, and if you really want removal that hits planeswalkers dreadbore and hero's downfall are better cards.
Well good luck playing those in Standard...
Good luck getting me to play standard at all.
I didn't even think people were playing standard anymore at the casual fnm level. A two deck format is horrible for everyone and both frontier and modern are better at the moment.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
well, in standard there is a 3cmc walker that can combo out turn 4. I don't know if any of the 'sorcery speed doesn't matter' people have heard of it, but the deck is making a couple waves. you know what would have helped keep this mysterious deck in check? a way to deal with that planeswalker at instant speed. Or did you "sorcery speed doesn't matter" people forget about ruinous path and Copycat has been a fluke the whole time. Unfortunately, Amonkhet looks fun to play in limited, but I have yet to see anything spoiled that can change standard in any way yet; except maybe the red 1 drop mage, and aggro might have a shot to compete?
So half the set is revealed and besides the mythics, there are maybe 2 or 3 playable cards. I mean lots of flavor but boring cards. What do you guys think of the half way point?
well, in standard there is a 3cmc walker that can combo out turn 4. I don't know if any of the 'sorcery speed doesn't matter' people have heard of it, but the deck is making a couple waves. you know what would have helped keep this mysterious deck in check? a way to deal with that planeswalker at instant speed. Or did you "sorcery speed doesn't matter" people forget about ruinous path and Copycat has been a fluke the whole time. Unfortunately, Amonkhet looks fun to play in limited, but I have yet to see anything spoiled that can change standard in any way yet; except maybe the red 1 drop mage, and aggro might have a shot to compete?
A Non-Spashable instant varient wasn't going to fix that problem anyways, so forgive me for not caring. The only thing that is going to keep copycat in check is a ban, and rightfully so. Low-cost answers are more format warping than anything else, look no further than modern.
Keep in mind that the Never/Return is card advantage it is slow but in a control deck having the option to eventually make a 2/2 down the line is a big bonus. Ruinous Path can make a land into a 4/4 but that has a huge initial cost of 7 mana in one turn this card gives you more flexibility, with getting that 2/2 whenever its convenient.
A white zombie... What's next, green vampires and black angels?
There has been 3 completely black angels printed in magic before so yeah, already that has happend. White has had a couple multi-color zombies with black and Stillmoon Cavalier can be cast with just white mana.
I have a feeling the red Embalm creature is going to be a Dragon with haste. Because why not add a 4/4 white Zombie Dragon with flying and haste to the mix? Of course, it could also be another goodsauce Jackal Warrior. Preferably with Haste. And maybe Double Strike?
Never//Return is giving me some serious Ravenloft: Stone Prophet vibes.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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Sooo, what was the point of your original reply? Waters wet, sky's blue, haters hate I guess.
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Well, to be fair the accounts makes it sound more like the Hydra is living in a Bayou than an Underground Sea. So the Green makes more sense than Blue would have at least.
I mean yes, this still seems bad - it would be great if either side costed 1 less, or if either or both sides were Instant. I was more annoyed on reaction to Aftermath as a general mechanic. That being said, if Heart is banned and Gideon is also banned (or rotates out, along with Ruinous Path) this could still see standard play and it is not awful in EDH.
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In the Bible, angels were male and not initially mentioned having wings. the first dragons in most cultures didn't have wings or breathe fire, the sphinx didn't always have wings, and classic demons didn't have to take scary forms. MtG is about what pop culture has turned each of those creatures into over the years, not what they used to be. I wouldn't care so much, but Hydras are the only one of the 5 icons to not have something iconic left to them. there is nothing mechanically to set it apart from any old Wurm unless you go tribal. how many dragons can't fly?
No...dessert would have been great.
This show how bad cards can be playable just out of necessity. Ruinous Path and this one are bad, but it are the "less bad" options, so people will play them just because they don't have anything better. But seeing how some planeswalker opress standard, we can see how weak they truly are, and how poor they are at doing what was supposed to be their jobs.
Sorcery speed is def relevant to removal of any kind. Sure, they can still hold priority and get the first activation, but being able to kill a walker on their turn, untap, and either develop your board or continue messing with your opponent's board is what most are people are looking for. It is meaningful interaction. Shoot, the option to kill a blocker at the end of their turn to allow your team to swing in on your turn, plus whatever else you do, is much better than having to use your removal on your turn.
I didn't know we were in the standard forum.
If the most important aspect of a planeswalker is the first activation, then not nearly as many people would be complaining about Gideon right now.
The need for that removal to be instant speed is due to the fact that Sorcery speed like Ruinous Path is a notable tempo loss. And as you pine out, yes it would be nice (also necessary) if it was instant to be used against creatures. A "dedicated" planeswalker removal shouldn't be against only planeswalkers; it needs to also have a flexibility of being used on a creature as well since most decks aren't heavy on Planeswalkers.
You are certainly correct, but couldn't you have done the same thing with Cancel and not given them the first activation? You want to hold Mana up in case they play something you can kill at instant speed, but that's just poor play. You should develop your board or play counterspells. You should not want a card that induces you to play nothing on your turn and then answers a card after the other card got value.
Yes, this card would be much better as an instant, but thinking removal needs to be instant speed is just conditioning based on 15+ years of all removal being instant speed. The way the game has evolved makes instant speed removal less necessary because you can't waste your Mana hoping to kill something.
Edit: replying to SC1987.
It's a temporary loss if you can't use your Mana the next turn. If they spent 3 Mana and you don't 3 Mana, there is no tempo loss. It would be a tempo loss if you held up Hero's Downfall Mana and they played around it and stranded your Mana. It's all relative.
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Context, I guess? Compares spoiled card to a standard legal equivalent. Hater states card is bad using non-standard legal cards as the baseline.
Standard sheds a tear at your refusal to play the format.
I didn't even think people were playing standard anymore at the casual fnm level. A two deck format is horrible for everyone and both frontier and modern are better at the moment.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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This set just can't compete with the current meta. Way too slow
A Non-Spashable instant varient wasn't going to fix that problem anyways, so forgive me for not caring. The only thing that is going to keep copycat in check is a ban, and rightfully so. Low-cost answers are more format warping than anything else, look no further than modern.
There has been 3 completely black angels printed in magic before so yeah, already that has happend. White has had a couple multi-color zombies with black and Stillmoon Cavalier can be cast with just white mana.
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