The Hydra is actually good, if you don't consider casting it from hand. Toss it in the yard and just play it for 4. Either it fuels Delerium or you get an undercosted beater. When is Trample bad?
Guys, the Return side of Never to Return targets ANY card, not just creatures. It's supposed to be that you kill the planeswalker, and then you exile it in case your opponent has some way to bring it back. Also, it can hit instants to hose Torrential Gearhulk decks.
And what people fail to understand about these Aftermath cards is that they HAVE to be overcosted on the second half because it's free card advantage.
No one remembers flashback or something?
Geez, if Think Twice was spoiled today, everyone would be so b***hurt that the flashback cost was 2U
The strongest flashback cards in standard had cheaper flashback costs than actual CMC. That's important to note. And I'm sure everyone will agree, Think Twice would be a welcome addition to this...weak blue standard.
Let's also not forget that there are very few ways in Standard right now to bring back a planeswalker. Also paying 4 mana to just get a zombie token and also not affecting the board state is grossly inefficient. So Never//Return basically is 7 mana for a Ruinous Path with a 2/2 Zombie Token and one less card in opponent's graveyard. I don't know about the rest of you but for that mana cost, I'd much rather have Ruinous Path with Awakening.
If this is the type of answers we should expect for Standard going forward, then God help us who play Standard.
You realize that creating a zombie token IS affecting the board state right?
Edit: And no, the strongest flashback cards did not always have a flashback cost cheaper.
Call of the Herd
Forbidden Alchemy
Think Twice
Teachings
The two flashbacks you left out, which went on to be standard and modern staples, as well as defining archetypes, Unburial Rites and Lingering Souls, beg to differ.
"This card would be better if it cost less and did more." - Whiners during spoiler season
It's not that Never//Return is a bad card, it's just not what we need right now. But for those of you who think the first half should be instant speed, you should research the concept of power creep. Having said all of that, I think a Hero's Downfall reprint would've been right on the money.
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What's the point of comparing Gideon to Elspeth? <Boggle>
If you don't think Gideon is overpowered right now (the best card in standard at the moment) then you obviously aren't playing standard.
The sorcery part is a HUGE DEAL. The tempo loss of having to sorcery kill Gideon instead of deal with him untap and be able to do something else is why Vehicles is eating your face. Losing 3 life to exile him isn't helping either.
Wow... 'ruinous path is playable'. You folks can't possibly be playing standard.
No one plays ruinous path, because there are better removal options at instant. Ruinous path's upside is way better in the current "creatures are everything in magic" world. Never will see play obviously in limited, and will be tested in standard for maybe a month tops before it vanishes because frankly it's just worse than "path" in the current magic era. Cremating a card at sorcery speed is worthless, but a 4/4 haste is not-and that's still not good enough. Fatal Push will continue to be the go to removal
I'm excited to be putting 6/6 trampling zombie hydras into play on turn 4. I am not excited for having to rely on more sorcery speed removal, because that's the best they'll give us. Both will see play, but I'll only enjoy one of them.
You sir are a gentleman and a scholar. I can't wait till I can play my bicycle land out, thus making me heckbent, while I have Nessie on the field. You know, so I can attack with my Pervert.
Guys, the Return side of Never to Return targets ANY card, not just creatures. It's supposed to be that you kill the planeswalker, and then you exile it in case your opponent has some way to bring it back. Also, it can hit instants to hose Torrential Gearhulk decks.
And what people fail to understand about these Aftermath cards is that they HAVE to be overcosted on the second half because it's free card advantage.
No one remembers flashback or something?
Geez, if Think Twice was spoiled today, everyone would be so b***hurt that the flashback cost was 2U
The strongest flashback cards in standard had cheaper flashback costs than actual CMC. That's important to note. And I'm sure everyone will agree, Think Twice would be a welcome addition to this...weak blue standard.
Let's also not forget that there are very few ways in Standard right now to bring back a planeswalker. Also paying 4 mana to just get a zombie token and also not affecting the board state is grossly inefficient. So Never//Return basically is 7 mana for a Ruinous Path with a 2/2 Zombie Token and one less card in opponent's graveyard. I don't know about the rest of you but for that mana cost, I'd much rather have Ruinous Path with Awakening.
If this is the type of answers we should expect for Standard going forward, then God help us who play Standard.
You realize that creating a zombie token IS affecting the board state right?
Edit: And no, the strongest flashback cards did not always have a flashback cost cheaper.
Call of the Herd
Forbidden Alchemy
Think Twice
Teachings
The two flashbacks you left out, which went on to be standard and modern staples, as well as defining archetypes, Unburial Rites and Lingering Souls, beg to differ.
Point to where I said flashback cards were always better when their flashback cost was higher. I pointed out where you said the opposite which I already proved untrue.
Edit:
Which of these two cards is better? Lingering Souls or 1W: Put two 1/1 Flying Spirits into play. Flashback 2B.
Maybe the fact that the flashback was cheap on Lingering Souls isn't what made it good.
I don't see how Ruinous Path is better than Never. You have to pay 7, in one go, to get your 4/4 body, and 8 if you want it to work right away. This is always 7 for removal + a body, and, it doesn't have to be payed in one go. Remove the biggest threat, create a chump for the next threat. It's pretty efficient, and hitting all card types is relevant as it can shut off delerium pretty easily.
The Hydra is a limited bomb that will also see standard play. I hope we get many more embalmed fatties with lesser embalm costs.
I like Never//Return quite a bit.
You cannot compare it to Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path, it may not be instant but it is pure card advantage and while Ruinous Path CAN give you a creature too, Never//Return allows you too kill something turn 3 and make that token at any time during the game. I like this flexibility over Path and the card advantage over Downfall - except for when you need that instant answer. But i think at instant Never//Return would have been an overpowered card - and everybody would have complained in 3-4 weeks, because everyone is playing monoB-control ;).
It's not card advantage if you never cast the aftermath.
I don't see how Ruinous Path is better than Never. You have to pay 7, in one go, to get your 4/4 body, and 8 if you want it to work right away. This is always 7 for removal + a body, and, it doesn't have to be payed in one go. Remove the biggest threat, create a chump for the next threat. It's pretty efficient, and hitting all card types is relevant as it can shut off delerium pretty easily.
The Hydra is a limited bomb that will also see standard play. I hope we get many more embalmed fatties with lesser embalm costs.
Both are bad, and if you really want removal that hits planeswalkers dreadbore and hero's downfall are better cards.
you know, the hydra doesn't seem terrible, but come on, if it isn't going to have something about growing new heads, just make it a Beast, I hate any time they don't do the head thing. change the iconic creature for green if you like, but that's what a hydra IS.
Actually, the Lernaean Hydra (the Hydra from the second labor of Heracles) being able to regrow its heads is FAR from a constant, in fact, it's not even present at all in the oldest know accounts of the story only being added in later renditions.
you know, the hydra doesn't seem terrible, but come on, if it isn't going to have something about growing new heads, just make it a Beast, I hate any time they don't do the head thing. change the iconic creature for green if you like, but that's what a hydra IS.
Actually, the Lernaean Hydra (the Hydra from the second labor of Heracles) being able to regrow its heads is FAR from a constant, in fact, it's not even present at all in the oldest know accounts of the story only being added in later renditions.
True, but the association between HYDras and water/swamp makes you wonder why they're green instead of black/blue!
I don't see how Ruinous Path is better than Never. You have to pay 7, in one go, to get your 4/4 body, and 8 if you want it to work right away. This is always 7 for removal + a body, and, it doesn't have to be payed in one go. Remove the biggest threat, create a chump for the next threat. It's pretty efficient, and hitting all card types is relevant as it can shut off delerium pretty easily.
The Hydra is a limited bomb that will also see standard play. I hope we get many more embalmed fatties with lesser embalm costs.
Both are bad, and if you really want removal that hits planeswalkers dreadbore and hero's downfall are better cards.
I don't see how Ruinous Path is better than Never. You have to pay 7, in one go, to get your 4/4 body, and 8 if you want it to work right away. This is always 7 for removal + a body, and, it doesn't have to be payed in one go. Remove the biggest threat, create a chump for the next threat. It's pretty efficient, and hitting all card types is relevant as it can shut off delerium pretty easily.
The Hydra is a limited bomb that will also see standard play. I hope we get many more embalmed fatties with lesser embalm costs.
Both are bad, and if you really want removal that hits planeswalkers dreadbore and hero's downfall are better cards.
I like Never//Return quite a bit.
You cannot compare it to Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path, it may not be instant but it is pure card advantage and while Ruinous Path CAN give you a creature too, Never//Return allows you too kill something turn 3 and make that token at any time during the game. I like this flexibility over Path and the card advantage over Downfall - except for when you need that instant answer. But i think at instant Never//Return would have been an overpowered card - and everybody would have complained in 3-4 weeks, because everyone is playing monoB-control ;).
As people will tell you, powerful threats demand powerful answers and that's not what we have in Standard right now. The only instant-speed planeswalker removal we have right now is Anguished Unmaking which has stricter mana requirements and is taxing on the user; Lightning Bolting yourself is definitely not good when playing most decks that run Gideon.
If Hero's Downfall is too powerful, then meet us halfway. Give us a version of Anguished Unmaking without the self-lightning bolt but limiting its use to only creatures or Planeswalkers. Or maybe at least reduce the taxing effect because 3 life is not insignificant. But leaving that slot for a dedicated instant planeswalker removal empty is just not healthy.
Everyone saying Aftermath is so bad is thinking of it like a fuse card. Obviously 4BBB to exile target creature or planeswalker and create a 2/2 black zombie token is miserable especially at sorcery speed. But the idea is that 1BB to destroy, and then later when you are flooded 3B to create a 2/2 and exile a card from grave is really strong as a lategame option. And, if you happen to be on seven mana and casting both sides simultaneously is beneficial you can do that too. Evaluate this more like Flashback, and less like you'd evaluate a split card with fuse.
Not to say I think a ton of the Aftermath cards are particularly good, but the constant complaining reminds me a lot of people saying Think Twice is unplayable because Jace's Ingenuity and Careful Consideration were legal at the same time.
With think twice you're paying 1 more for the second half of the card. With this one, considering that the effect of the card is found on 1 CMC cards, you're paying 3 more for the second half.
I like Never//Return quite a bit.
You cannot compare it to Hero's Downfall or Ruinous Path, it may not be instant but it is pure card advantage and while Ruinous Path CAN give you a creature too, Never//Return allows you too kill something turn 3 and make that token at any time during the game. I like this flexibility over Path and the card advantage over Downfall - except for when you need that instant answer. But i think at instant Never//Return would have been an overpowered card - and everybody would have complained in 3-4 weeks, because everyone is playing monoB-control ;).
As people will tell you, powerful threats demand powerful answers and that's not what we have in Standard right now. The only instant-speed planeswalker removal we have right now is Anguished Unmaking which has stricter mana requirements and is taxing on the user; Lightning Bolting yourself is definitely not good when playing most decks that run Gideon.
If Hero's Downfall is too powerful, then meet us halfway. Give us a version of Anguished Unmaking without the self-lightning bolt but limiting its use to only creatures or Planeswalkers. Or maybe at least reduce the taxing effect because 3 life is not insignificant. But leaving that slot for an instant planeswalker removal empty is just not healthy.
Why don't need instant speed Planeswalker removal? They'll get their first activation no matter what, and if you pass the turn they'll get a 2nd activation. You're going to kill it on your own turn regardless, so sorcery speed for Planeswalker is largely irrelevant. It would be nice if it was an instant for creatures, but everything would be nicer as an instant or with flash.
The Hydra is actually good, if you don't consider casting it from hand. Toss it in the yard and just play it for 4. Either it fuels Delerium or you get an undercosted beater. When is Trample bad?
They managed to make split cards boring ...
They should really come up with something more cool for this slot , but it just feels like a reprint over and over again ...
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
True, but a sorcery that does nothing to stop vehicles just isn't good in Standard right now.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The two flashbacks you left out, which went on to be standard and modern staples, as well as defining archetypes, Unburial Rites and Lingering Souls, beg to differ.
It's not that Never//Return is a bad card, it's just not what we need right now. But for those of you who think the first half should be instant speed, you should research the concept of power creep. Having said all of that, I think a Hero's Downfall reprint would've been right on the money.
My 720 Peasant Cube
> More than half of them are double sorceries
10/10 logic
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
If you don't think Gideon is overpowered right now (the best card in standard at the moment) then you obviously aren't playing standard.
The sorcery part is a HUGE DEAL. The tempo loss of having to sorcery kill Gideon instead of deal with him untap and be able to do something else is why Vehicles is eating your face. Losing 3 life to exile him isn't helping either.
Wow... 'ruinous path is playable'. You folks can't possibly be playing standard.
ah yeah, I had forgotten Wurm, that would probably be better
So will Never see play.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Point to where I said flashback cards were always better when their flashback cost was higher. I pointed out where you said the opposite which I already proved untrue.
Edit:
Which of these two cards is better? Lingering Souls or 1W: Put two 1/1 Flying Spirits into play. Flashback 2B.
Maybe the fact that the flashback was cheap on Lingering Souls isn't what made it good.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
The Hydra is a limited bomb that will also see standard play. I hope we get many more embalmed fatties with lesser embalm costs.
It's not card advantage if you never cast the aftermath.
Both are bad, and if you really want removal that hits planeswalkers dreadbore and hero's downfall are better cards.
Actually, the Lernaean Hydra (the Hydra from the second labor of Heracles) being able to regrow its heads is FAR from a constant, in fact, it's not even present at all in the oldest know accounts of the story only being added in later renditions.
True, but the association between HYDras and water/swamp makes you wonder why they're green instead of black/blue!
Well good luck playing those in Standard...
Good luck getting me to play standard at all.
As people will tell you, powerful threats demand powerful answers and that's not what we have in Standard right now. The only instant-speed planeswalker removal we have right now is Anguished Unmaking which has stricter mana requirements and is taxing on the user; Lightning Bolting yourself is definitely not good when playing most decks that run Gideon.
If Hero's Downfall is too powerful, then meet us halfway. Give us a version of Anguished Unmaking without the self-lightning bolt but limiting its use to only creatures or Planeswalkers. Or maybe at least reduce the taxing effect because 3 life is not insignificant. But leaving that slot for a dedicated instant planeswalker removal empty is just not healthy.
Why don't need instant speed Planeswalker removal? They'll get their first activation no matter what, and if you pass the turn they'll get a 2nd activation. You're going to kill it on your own turn regardless, so sorcery speed for Planeswalker is largely irrelevant. It would be nice if it was an instant for creatures, but everything would be nicer as an instant or with flash.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!