Guys, the Return side of Never to Return targets ANY card, not just creatures. It's supposed to be that you kill the planeswalker, and then you exile it in case your opponent has some way to bring it back. Also, it can hit instants to hose Torrential Gearhulk decks.
And what people fail to understand about these Aftermath cards is that they HAVE to be overcosted on the second half because it's free card advantage.
No one remembers flashback or something?
Geez, if Think Twice was spoiled today, everyone would be so b***hurt that the flashback cost was 2U
The strongest flashback cards in standard had cheaper flashback costs than actual CMC. That's important to note. And I'm sure everyone will agree, Think Twice would be a welcome addition to this...weak blue standard.
The ebb and flow of the power level of magic is always a little painful, like shrinking pains? Compared to ruinous path, I like this card better. The upside is very real in the context of this set and of delirium. If the format becomus grindy enough the backside is worthwhile value even for 4 mana.
I love the roar of the warm reference, and this card could make a U/G madness style deck viable again with drake haven and noose constrictor, love it.
You guys are crazy ... no one remebers Roar of the Wurm, I guess. And a solid removal with a creature attached to it. Those cards are really strong and will definitely see a lot of play.
It boggles my mind how butthurt people are about Never//Return. Ruinous Path is a playable card. This card is nearly identical. In exchange for being able to break the cost into 2 different payments and the additional text of exiling something in the bin AND not having to expose one of your lands you lose 2 power and 2 toughness. That is a reasonable exchange. And seriously, how often do you actually awaken a Ruinous Path? You will get this 2/2 FAR more often than you got the 4/4 (like basically every time vs basically never).
That Hydra is gas too. Significantly better than roar of the wurm. You can't have both wurms out at once but cheaper on the front end and trample to boot. Not that you cast the front end very often.
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The devil's in the detail. BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
I'm sure the problem with Desert is Limited: It is not fun to not be able to attack with your weenie commons for however-many-turns because your opponent can tap a land.
Guys, the Return side of Never to Return targets ANY card, not just creatures. It's supposed to be that you kill the planeswalker, and then you exile it in case your opponent has some way to bring it back. Also, it can hit instants to hose Torrential Gearhulk decks.
And what people fail to understand about these Aftermath cards is that they HAVE to be overcosted on the second half because it's free card advantage.
No one remembers flashback or something?
Geez, if Think Twice was spoiled today, everyone would be so b***hurt that the flashback cost was 2U
The strongest flashback cards in standard had cheaper flashback costs than actual CMC. That's important to note. And I'm sure everyone will agree, Think Twice would be a welcome addition to this...weak blue standard.
Let's also not forget that there are very few ways in Standard right now to bring back a planeswalker. Also paying 4 mana to just get a zombie token and also not affecting the board state is grossly inefficient. So Never//Return basically is 7 mana for a Ruinous Path with a 2/2 Zombie Token and one less card in opponent's graveyard. I don't know about the rest of you but for that mana cost, I'd much rather have Ruinous Path with Awakening.
If this is the type of answers we should expect for Standard going forward, then God help us who play Standard.
Desert too strong but freaking Gideon X is not, so glad I quit standard ages ago. This set has little value for me as an EDH player outside a couple of cards.
This was exactly my thought. Half of this thread is "Standard is too powerful" and the other half wants Hero's Downfall with card advantage and graveyard hate tacked on for 1 extra Mana.
Guys, the Return side of Never to Return targets ANY card, not just creatures. It's supposed to be that you kill the planeswalker, and then you exile it in case your opponent has some way to bring it back. Also, it can hit instants to hose Torrential Gearhulk decks.
And what people fail to understand about these Aftermath cards is that they HAVE to be overcosted on the second half because it's free card advantage.
No one remembers flashback or something?
Geez, if Think Twice was spoiled today, everyone would be so b***hurt that the flashback cost was 2U
The strongest flashback cards in standard had cheaper flashback costs than actual CMC. That's important to note. And I'm sure everyone will agree, Think Twice would be a welcome addition to this...weak blue standard.
Let's also not forget that there are very few ways in Standard right now to bring back a planeswalker. Also paying 4 mana to just get a zombie token and also not affecting the board state is grossly inefficient. So Never//Return basically is 7 mana for a Ruinous Path with a 2/2 Zombie Token and one less card in opponent's graveyard. I don't know about the rest of you but for that mana cost, I'd much rather have Ruinous Path with Awakening.
If this is the type of answers we should expect for Standard going forward, then God help us who play Standard.
You realize that creating a zombie token IS affecting the board state right?
Edit: And no, the strongest flashback cards did not always have a flashback cost cheaper.
Call of the Herd
Forbidden Alchemy
Think Twice
Teachings
I think his desert claims make more sense in a limited environment where it would be a common and drafting deserts would be problematic. Four deserts at 60 is meh, but 5 at 40 is pretty good.
Man, T2 just keeps getting worse and worse. Glad I got out after RtR, at least we could have fun back then. Everything since seems so slow and uncreative.
People are all pissing and moaning about Gideon(s), but Elspeth is WAY more powerful. Until they decide to release a planeswalker into Standard on par with Elspeth, there won't be any instant-speed planeswalker removal.
I think his desert claims make more sense in a limited environment where it would be a common and drafting deserts would be problematic. Four deserts at 60 is meh, but 5 at 40 is pretty good.
I think his desert claims make more sense in a limited environment where it would be a common and drafting deserts would be problematic. Four deserts at 60 is meh, but 5 at 40 is pretty good.
Pretty sure Desert would be an Uncommon. Also so tired of Limited blah blah blah for crappy card designs and sets.
People are all pissing and moaning about Gideon(s), but Elspeth is WAY more powerful. Until they decide to release a planeswalker into Standard on par with Elspeth, there won't be any instant-speed planeswalker removal.
Way more powerful? I don't think that's true considering their respective CMCs. I know I find Gideon far more annoying than Elspeth.
People are all pissing and moaning about Gideon(s), but Elspeth is WAY more powerful. Until they decide to release a planeswalker into Standard on par with Elspeth, there won't be any instant-speed planeswalker removal.
Way more powerful? I don't think that's true considering their respective CMCs. I know I find Gideon far more annoying than Elspeth.
Gideon can be chumped all day long, and barely protects himself. Once Elspeth lands, if you don't have A LOT of creatures or something with evasion, you're going to lose the game in 3 turns, period, unless you have a planeswalker kill spell. At least from a control/midrange perspective, Elspeth is the far better choice if the option were available.
They stopped printing planeswalkers like her (and Ugin, for that matter) that can just turn the game around out of nowhere.
What!? Seriously...? I mean, this card was reprinted in Time Spiral and it barely saw play back then. This is everything that is wrong with standard. The sorcery-speed planeswalker removal is laughable in a world of Vehicles were instant speed is a must. The icing on the cake was the worse Miscalculation that was spoiled today.
It surprises me how they seem baffled about the fact that no one is playing standard, yet they continue making the same mistakes over and over again. For me this set is BFZ 2.0
People are all pissing and moaning about Gideon(s), but Elspeth is WAY more powerful. Until they decide to release a planeswalker into Standard on par with Elspeth, there won't be any instant-speed planeswalker removal.
Way more powerful? I don't think that's true considering their respective CMCs. I know I find Gideon far more annoying than Elspeth.
Gideon can be chumped all day long, and barely protects himself. Once Elspeth lands, if you don't have A LOT of creatures or something with evasion, you're going to lose the game in 3 turns, period, unless you have a planeswalker kill spell. At least from a control/midrange perspective, Elspeth is the far better choice if the option were available.
They stopped printing planeswalkers like her (and Ugin, for that matter) that can just turn the game around out of nowhere.
If you don't have an answer for a turn 4 Gideon, you're dead. He hits extremely hard and has been a key to pushing control out of standard. Elspeth may be more powerful, but she also costs 2 more mana.
This was exactly my thought. Half of this thread is "Standard is too powerful" and the other half wants Hero's Downfall with card advantage and graveyard hate tacked on for 1 extra Mana.
The problem is not the total package value. We don't want a 2/2 zombie. We want good removal. The card will be played based on the need for a 3 mana, double black, sorcery speed removal for creatures and planeswalkers. The aftermath will have close to zero weight on the playability of the card. You either include it in your deck because the removal is good enough or you don't. The extra bonus tacked on is a detail.
This was exactly my thought. Half of this thread is "Standard is too powerful" and the other half wants Hero's Downfall with card advantage and graveyard hate tacked on for 1 extra Mana.
The problem is not the total package value. We don't want a 2/2 zombie. We want good removal. The card will be played based on the need for a 3 mana, double black, sorcery speed removal for creatures and planeswalkers. The aftermath will have close to zero weight on the playability of the card. You either include it in your deck because the removal is good enough or you don't. The extra bonus tacked on is a detail.
Give us good, well costed instant speed removal.
THIS.
And honestly, when looking at the Return side, the first thing I want to do is fizzle the spell when someone else tries to cast it.
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Standard: UR Blue-Red Control
Modern: UBR Grixis Control UWR Jeskai Control
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The strongest flashback cards in standard had cheaper flashback costs than actual CMC. That's important to note. And I'm sure everyone will agree, Think Twice would be a welcome addition to this...weak blue standard.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
They could simply add both Desert and oasi c mon
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
I love the roar of the warm reference, and this card could make a U/G madness style deck viable again with drake haven and noose constrictor, love it.
Instant would make it strictly better than hero's downfall.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
That Hydra is gas too. Significantly better than roar of the wurm. You can't have both wurms out at once but cheaper on the front end and trample to boot. Not that you cast the front end very often.
BSkithiryx, the Blight DragonB
GAzusa, Lost but SeekingG
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Let's also not forget that there are very few ways in Standard right now to bring back a planeswalker. Also paying 4 mana to just get a zombie token and also not affecting the board state is grossly inefficient. So Never//Return basically is 7 mana for a Ruinous Path with a 2/2 Zombie Token and one less card in opponent's graveyard. I don't know about the rest of you but for that mana cost, I'd much rather have Ruinous Path with Awakening.
If this is the type of answers we should expect for Standard going forward, then God help us who play Standard.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
You realize that creating a zombie token IS affecting the board state right?
Edit: And no, the strongest flashback cards did not always have a flashback cost cheaper.
Call of the Herd
Forbidden Alchemy
Think Twice
Teachings
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Hero's Downfall was a necessary balance to the powerhouse that was Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
People are all pissing and moaning about Gideon(s), but Elspeth is WAY more powerful. Until they decide to release a planeswalker into Standard on par with Elspeth, there won't be any instant-speed planeswalker removal.
Another reason to hate current Limtied philosophy
Pretty sure Desert would be an Uncommon. Also so tired of Limited blah blah blah for crappy card designs and sets.
Way more powerful? I don't think that's true considering their respective CMCs. I know I find Gideon far more annoying than Elspeth.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Gideon can be chumped all day long, and barely protects himself. Once Elspeth lands, if you don't have A LOT of creatures or something with evasion, you're going to lose the game in 3 turns, period, unless you have a planeswalker kill spell. At least from a control/midrange perspective, Elspeth is the far better choice if the option were available.
They stopped printing planeswalkers like her (and Ugin, for that matter) that can just turn the game around out of nowhere.
What!? Seriously...? I mean, this card was reprinted in Time Spiral and it barely saw play back then. This is everything that is wrong with standard. The sorcery-speed planeswalker removal is laughable in a world of Vehicles were instant speed is a must. The icing on the cake was the worse Miscalculation that was spoiled today.
It surprises me how they seem baffled about the fact that no one is playing standard, yet they continue making the same mistakes over and over again. For me this set is BFZ 2.0
If you don't have an answer for a turn 4 Gideon, you're dead. He hits extremely hard and has been a key to pushing control out of standard. Elspeth may be more powerful, but she also costs 2 more mana.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
The problem is not the total package value. We don't want a 2/2 zombie. We want good removal. The card will be played based on the need for a 3 mana, double black, sorcery speed removal for creatures and planeswalkers. The aftermath will have close to zero weight on the playability of the card. You either include it in your deck because the removal is good enough or you don't. The extra bonus tacked on is a detail.
Give us good, well costed instant speed removal.
THIS.
And honestly, when looking at the Return side, the first thing I want to do is fizzle the spell when someone else tries to cast it.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control