How is it every MTG player except those in WotC Dev recognize the need for good instant-speed PW removal?
It's incredibly obvious to me that for the past few years Design has been doing a good job, but Devlopment has been screwing up majorly. Maro must be pissed that not only does his work get sabotaged by Development, but he then bears the blame for booooring Standard environments.
Wither was originally in this set. Would have been awesome. Development took it out. Development was also solely responsible for stellar decisions like Siege Rhino and Reflector Mage (and, I think, Felidar Guardian, but I'm not sure about that).
We actually had Desert in early design files but it proved to be a little too powerful to bring back.
They can't be serious. Really???
I'm really starting to wonder what really goes on behind closed doors at Wizards/Hasbro. Might as well ban Prodigal Sorcerer then.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Desert appeared in Magic's first expansion, Arabian Nights. The card saw some play in tournaments, but was greatly hampered by the fact that so many of the early decks were completely (or almost completely) creatureless. We actually had Desert in early design files but it proved to be a little too powerful to bring back.
Ah yes. We wouldn't want the precious servos and thopters to get sand stuck in their cogs and circuitry. Much too dangerous.
well, in standard there is a 3cmc walker that can combo out turn 4. I don't know if any of the 'sorcery speed doesn't matter' people have heard of it, but the deck is making a couple waves. you know what would have helped keep this mysterious deck in check? a way to deal with that planeswalker at instant speed. Or did you "sorcery speed doesn't matter" people forget about ruinous path and Copycat has been a fluke the whole time. Unfortunately, Amonkhet looks fun to play in limited, but I have yet to see anything spoiled that can change standard in any way yet; except maybe the red 1 drop mage, and aggro might have a shot to compete?
A Non-Spashable instant varient wasn't going to fix that problem anyways, so forgive me for not caring. The only thing that is going to keep copycat in check is a ban, and rightfully so. Low-cost answers are more format warping than anything else, look no further than modern.
You mean the format that has 2-3 times more tier 1 decks? With multiple more archetypes? and a dozen tier 2 decks that can compete? You realize you are talking about the format that a year ago went through the 'eldrazi winter' where the creatures from STANDARD were TOO POWERFUL for modern's answers!!! so I did look at modern; and the last thing to warp modern was ironically STANDARD'S CREATURES. I would say I rest my case, but I thought I should also point out that the designers of the game also agree that the answers are too weak. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I don't know what else to tell you.
Desert appeared in Magic's first expansion, Arabian Nights. The card saw some play in tournaments, but was greatly hampered by the fact that so many of the early decks were completely (or almost completely) creatureless. We actually had Desert in early design files but it proved to be a little too powerful to bring back.
Ah yes. We wouldn't want the precious servos and thopters to get sand stuck in their cogs and circuitry. Much too dangerous.
Or the fact that those serves and thopters will start trading with X/2's? In a standard environment where creatures, and combat in general, are pushed, why introduce free pinging? It's also not even a "downside" to running them as you currently have colorless eldrazi and a heavy artifact presence.
Seriously, I know it's the "cool thing to do" to hate on things that you may not fully understand, but instead of just whipping out one-liners, take a look at the context in which these cards would be introduced.
Same goes for the removal spoiled. Many wanted instant speed, simply because of copycat, but this isn't the last set ever to be printed. It's a slippery slope to just start printing efficient answers in every block, ecspecialy ones that unconditionally hit creatures in an era where creatures are the primary focus of every block, and also with an even greater emphasis on limited, hard, efficient, removal is just too good.
Desert appeared in Magic's first expansion, Arabian Nights. The card saw some play in tournaments, but was greatly hampered by the fact that so many of the early decks were completely (or almost completely) creatureless. We actually had Desert in early design files but it proved to be a little too powerful to bring back.
Ah yes. We wouldn't want the precious servos and thopters to get sand stuck in their cogs and circuitry. Much too dangerous.
Or the fact that those serves and thopters will start trading with X/2's? [snip]
But of course. How could I have been so blind? The master plan of the thopters and servos is to adapt to the desert climate of Amonkhet and take it over by storm. Tens of thousands of thopters riding the desert winds and emitting metallic buzzing. The sands no longer home to the decaying undead but instead to the mighty servos that will ambush the sandwurms.
well, in standard there is a 3cmc walker that can combo out turn 4. I don't know if any of the 'sorcery speed doesn't matter' people have heard of it, but the deck is making a couple waves. you know what would have helped keep this mysterious deck in check? a way to deal with that planeswalker at instant speed. Or did you "sorcery speed doesn't matter" people forget about ruinous path and Copycat has been a fluke the whole time. Unfortunately, Amonkhet looks fun to play in limited, but I have yet to see anything spoiled that can change standard in any way yet; except maybe the red 1 drop mage, and aggro might have a shot to compete?
A Non-Spashable instant varient wasn't going to fix that problem anyways, so forgive me for not caring. The only thing that is going to keep copycat in check is a ban, and rightfully so. Low-cost answers are more format warping than anything else, look no further than modern.
You mean the format that has 2-3 times more tier 1 decks? With multiple more archetypes? and a dozen tier 2 decks that can compete? You realize you are talking about the format that a year ago went through the 'eldrazi winter' where the creatures from STANDARD were TOO POWERFUL for modern's answers!!! so I did look at modern; and the last thing to warp modern was ironically STANDARD'S CREATURES. I would say I rest my case, but I thought I should also point out that the designers of the game also agree that the answers are too weak. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I don't know what else to tell you.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. We're discussing 2 different things here. Eldrazi winter wasn't due to Wizards printing game breaking creatures in Standard, it was because the creatures printed in BFZ played perfectly with cards printed in ROE. What were they to do, super-nerf the BFZ eldrazi because Eye of Ugin was a thing? Or Eldrazi Temple? Your argument literally makes no sense. I was referring to things like the "bolt test", or being able to generate enough value to outweigh Path to Exile. The modern cardpool is what, 12-14 times larger than that of Standard? Yet very, VERY, few creatures ever make their way into top decks. Why? Because the removal is too good. It obviously goes beyond modern, but I thought you'd be able to pick up on that.
If you really think that adding Hero's downfall to the standard card pool was going to fix anything, you're flat out WRONG.
well, in standard there is a 3cmc walker that can combo out turn 4. I don't know if any of the 'sorcery speed doesn't matter' people have heard of it, but the deck is making a couple waves. you know what would have helped keep this mysterious deck in check? a way to deal with that planeswalker at instant speed. Or did you "sorcery speed doesn't matter" people forget about ruinous path and Copycat has been a fluke the whole time. Unfortunately, Amonkhet looks fun to play in limited, but I have yet to see anything spoiled that can change standard in any way yet; except maybe the red 1 drop mage, and aggro might have a shot to compete?
A Non-Spashable instant varient wasn't going to fix that problem anyways, so forgive me for not caring. The only thing that is going to keep copycat in check is a ban, and rightfully so. Low-cost answers are more format warping than anything else, look no further than modern.
You mean the format that has 2-3 times more tier 1 decks? With multiple more archetypes? and a dozen tier 2 decks that can compete? You realize you are talking about the format that a year ago went through the 'eldrazi winter' where the creatures from STANDARD were TOO POWERFUL for modern's answers!!! so I did look at modern; and the last thing to warp modern was ironically STANDARD'S CREATURES. I would say I rest my case, but I thought I should also point out that the designers of the game also agree that the answers are too weak. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I don't know what else to tell you.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. We're discussing 2 different things here. Eldrazi winter wasn't due to Wizards printing game breaking creatures in Standard, it was because the creatures printed in BFZ played perfectly with cards printed in ROE. What were they to do, super-nerf the BFZ eldrazi because Eye of Ugin was a thing? Or Eldrazi Temple? Your argument literally makes no sense. I was referring to things like the "bolt test", or being able to generate enough value to outweigh Path to Exile. The modern cardpool is what, 12-14 times larger than that of Standard? Yet very, VERY, few creatures ever make their way into top decks. Why? Because the removal is too good. It obviously goes beyond modern, but I thought you'd be able to pick up on that.
If you really think that adding Hero's downfall to the standard card pool was going to fix anything, you're flat out WRONG.
Oh I picked up on everything you were saying, you just clearly either haven't played the game long enough, or you just don't like playing games that are fair, or balanced. You're arguments make it pretty clear you are more of a "play big beater on tempo" kinda guy, who hates having his game plan disrupted in any way. that's fine. You aren't wrong about Eye of Ugin, but then again, modern's answers still weren't strong enough. They needed their ban. YOU were just advocating a ban in standard to get rid of (educated guess) the creature part of the combo. And why would that need to happen if we had better answers. If you DON'T think hero's downfall would effect a turn four 3 color combo in standard, well.......I go back to my original response, you clearly haven't played long enough.
I guess Land Leeches can be considered a type of vampire. But there's plenty of real life examples to take from like the Vampire Finch that might fit green.
But with all the top down design WotC is doing I can'timagine we'll see such ilk again.
Desert too strong but freaking Gideon X is not, so glad I quit standard ages ago. This set has little value for me as an EDH player outside a couple of cards.
From Maro's Blogatog:
matewdp asked: How come desert is too strong for standard when thing like Gideon Ally of Zendikar and smuggler copter got printed?
I often say “too powerful” when what I mean is “shouldn’t be reprinted”. The card slows games down and isn’t fun.
The power level of the most powerful card in Standard is not the bar we measure against when deciding on power level for reprints.
EDIT: Just noticed the discussion about Deserts.
Guys, the problem with Desert is that it's a land with a repeatable removal effect. It requires very little to include in your deck too. The problem with it is the same as the problem with Smuggler's Copter - it slots into almost anything, so it's going to be very ubiquitous if they reprint it. It additionally warps the whole environment in the set design, meaning that they have to be very careful about the size of creatures. This severely hampers the flexibility of R&D's design process, as suddenly X/1s and X/2s are in the danger zone out of simply having too little toughness for the environment. This is why the card is powerful, because printing it would severely limit which creatures were playable. And R&D decided the tradeoff wasn't worth it, that the cost of including desert wasn't worth it in regards to deck ubiquitous building, limitations on design and development, and warping the format away from small creatures.
It's the same logic they used to stop printing mana dorks at cmc 1, because then their flexibility in regards to designing cmc 3 green cards would be incredibly hampered. Removing mana dorks at cmc 1 was because it loosens the design restrictions and gives them more freedom in regards to designing a format that's as fun for their consumers as possible. It's the same reason they stopped printing Dark Ritual and started reprinting Hypnotic Specter - because they realized which of the two was unhealthy for the format.
Also... Why do you guys even care? Would Desert really have made Standard more fun for you? Would the reprint be exciting? I understand that the card is flavorful, but wouldn't you just rather have new Desert cards (which they are hinting at heavily) that are just more interesting than a reprint most of you probably think is a throwaway card in eternal formats anyways?
Desert too strong but freaking Gideon X is not, so glad I quit standard ages ago. This set has little value for me as an EDH player outside a couple of cards.
From Maro's Blogatog:
matewdp asked: How come desert is too strong for standard when thing like Gideon Ally of Zendikar and smuggler copter got printed?
I often say “too powerful” when what I mean is “shouldn’t be reprinted”. The card slows games down and isn’t fun.
The power level of the most powerful card in Standard is not the bar we measure against when deciding on power level for reprints.
EDIT: Just noticed the discussion about Deserts.
Guys, the problem with Desert is that it's a land with a repeatable removal effect. It requires very little to include in your deck too. The problem with it is the same as the problem with Smuggler's Copter - it slots into almost anything, so it's going to be very ubiquitous if they reprint it. It additionally warps the whole environment in the set design, meaning that they have to be very careful about the size of creatures. This severely hampers the flexibility of R&D's design process, as suddenly X/1s and X/2s are in the danger zone out of simply having too little toughness for the environment. This is why the card is powerful, because printing it would severely limit which creatures were playable. And R&D decided the tradeoff wasn't worth it, that the cost of including desert wasn't worth it in regards to deck ubiquitous building, limitations on design and development, and warping the format away from small creatures.
It's the same logic they used to stop printing mana dorks at cmc 1, because then their flexibility in regards to designing cmc 3 green cards would be incredibly hampered. Removing mana dorks at cmc 1 was because it loosens the design restrictions and gives them more freedom in regards to designing a format that's as fun for their consumers as possible. It's the same reason they stopped printing Dark Ritual and started reprinting Hypnotic Specter - because they realized which of the two was unhealthy for the format.
Also... Why do you guys even care? Would Desert really have made Standard more fun for you? Would the reprint be exciting? I understand that the card is flavorful, but wouldn't you just rather have new Desert cards (which they are hinting at heavily) that are just more interesting than a reprint most of you probably think is a throwaway card in eternal formats anyways?
I don't say it often but...
THIS.
People see "Too strong for standard" and immediately they go "OMG WOTC POWERING DOWN STANDARD NOW CARD X IS TOO STRONG" but they don't look at the bigger picture behind it. There are a lot of factors in the current standard that would've caused issues with Desert, so I'm glad they didn't reprint it. It wouldn't have been too STRONG for Standard, but it would've certainly limited build choices by too much.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
So you can say the samething for alot of cards like: Strong removal like Lightningbolt, Mana dorks like Elvish Mystic, powerful 1 mana discard like Inquisition of Kozilek, stronger counter spell like Mana Leak, good 1 mana cantrips.
Sorry but they are trying to make an enviroment so weak for some type of cards that others like Desert that overral isn't overpowered at all, but somehow managed to become too strong in this enviroment.
Well they said that recently that they understand that they need betetr awnsers so i'll give them the benefit of doubt since Amonkhet was most likelly already made when they finally grasped the problem.
But thanks to our complains that they took the hint that standard has became a mess with way too many pwoerfull threats while making other cards suffer because is unfun or too strong.
I would have liked to see a Desert reprint. I don't think it would slotted into that many decks (it does come at a pretty steep cost to your mana). Controlling strategies would probably run some number of them, but those decks could use the help. I'm also a bit sad that I won't be able to put the sweet Arabian Nights version to use.
ANY format where Desert is too strong is flat out *****ty. Why I applaud Wizards for trying to slow power creep, nerfing any and everything that is not planewalkers and creatures has not helped the game play. Maybe I am just jaded because god forbid I played when Counterspell was in standard and yes even Force of Will and those formats where better then the *****show we are seeing right now.
I love it how mad people get during spoiler season. Someone says "we thought that this specific card was too strong for the particular environment we wanted to build" and immediately someone goes "OK now EVERY CARD that does thing X isn't fun anymore, ALRIGHT Wizards, please continue DUMBING DOWN THE GAME."
Unlike a Counterspell or a black removal spell, Desert can go into literally any deck. They just decided that, to a certain degree, having to balance every creature around Deserts activated ability wasn't worth it. Neither does that mean they consider it too powerful to be printed in a Standard set ever again, nor that they will never print efficient removal again.
I was sad that we didn't get Miscalculation too, but jeez, calm down people.
A lack of desert is horrible. Too powerful to come back? Pretty much every creature has a toughness of 2 or more (including 1 drops!). If you can't design a block where desert is not "too good", you're bad at magic. Desert was even timeshifted! This is inexcusable.
The new Roar of the Wurm is predictable, but not enough of a twist. I fully expected 3W for the "flashback" cost... but nope. Having only a single green in it's mana cost is a little tone-deaf too. Splashing is nice and all that, but it's a rare - you should have to work to cast it in limited.
Never to Return is yet another of this cycle - and it seems very wasteful of competent names. Sure, this is a fair kill spell (that doesn't stop cat combo), but the bottom half is both flavorless, as it can exilenon-creatures, and costs an obscene amount of mana. Or was Shamble Back too broken in the current format to print?
This set is full of moderate hits and giant flavor mistakes.
So half the set is revealed and besides the mythics, there are maybe 2 or 3 playable cards. I mean lots of flavor but boring cards. What do you guys think of the half way point?
why just target player? Why not target player, Planeswalker or creature?
WRT damage, target player and planeswalker is pretty much the same. Your Sunscorched Deserts though are not the answer to Leyline of Sanctity, however.
So you can say the samething for alot of cards like: Strong removal like Lightningbolt, Mana dorks like Elvish Mystic, powerful 1 mana discard like Inquisition of Kozilek, stronger counter spell like Mana Leak, good 1 mana cantrips.
Sorry but they are trying to make an enviroment so weak for some type of cards that others like Desert that overral isn't overpowered at all, but somehow managed to become too strong in this enviroment.
Well they said that recently that they understand that they need betetr awnsers so i'll give them the benefit of doubt since Amonkhet was most likelly already made when they finally grasped the problem.
But thanks to our complains that they took the hint that standard has became a mess with way too many pwoerfull threats while making other cards suffer because is unfun or too strong.
I'll address your concerns here, going by each of your examples.
Reprinting Lightning Bolt in particular makes red very powerful, meaning that power will be transfered from other new exciting red cards to Lightning Bolt. This is in order to maintain a balanced environment. And while Lightning Bolt isn't an unexciting reprint (in fact it's a pet card of mine) WotC wants to allocate power to new cards so eternal formats can be continually expanded upon. If players get no new exciting cards for eternal, they'll get unhappy. Therefore Lightning Bolt isn't something they're very eager to reprint. That said, while Lightning Bolt is a very very good card, it's not completely off the table, as the card is (somewhat) fair. Maro, although not a power level guy, has stated this plenty of times. It's just a question about priorities, and Lightning Bolt is an incredibly powerful card that warps standard, killing everything toughness 3 and less, and allowing favorable trades - and reach - late game. For one mana. Instant speed.
The interesting thing is that in reality Elvish Mystic isn't off the table either. They just realized that starting mana dorks at cmc 2 by default severely increased the design space of cmc 3 green cards. Maro has stated here, too, that one drop mana dorks can be printed, it's just improbable with the current ebb and flow of the game. They prefer the possibility to make Standard as interesting as possible.
But in regards to reprinting really powerful utility cards, refer to the Thoughtseize reprint. They tried that as an experiment to figure out whether players like high profile reprints like that. While MonoB Devotion became an incredibly powerful deck, meaning that black didn't suffer particularly in regards to power allocation, but due to unfavorable player reactions, they found the experiment unsuccesful. (Note that they are actively listening to player response here.)
However there is another factor here. Contrary to Lightning Bolt discard spells are perceived similar to counterspells, in that players experience that they don't get to play the cards in question. They'll probably print more potent discard spells in the future, but don't expect them to print anything on the level of Thoughtseize. Amusingly, from what I gather, I believe Inquisition of Kozilek is a fine reprint for WotC as it requires some deckbuilding and play considerations (which Thoughtseize really doesn't do that much in Type 2). They considered reprinting it in BfZ but decided not to due to the fact that it wasn't colorless - meaning that it would be a flavor disconnect in Devoid Eldrazi world. It's the same reason they didn't reprint Ghostfire (as it, while basically having Devoid, wasn't flavored as an Eldrazi card in a set where colorless/devoid was the central identity of the Eldrazi).
Good 1 mana cantrips, I assume you mean quality card selection like Preordain, becaue we just got a beater Sphinx that cycles for U. The reason they don't print Preordain-like cards isn't actually Standard. It's because of concerns with eternal formats, particularly Modern. 1 mana blue cantrips are incredibly powerful there as they severely empower the tempo of blue combo decks. Of all things, don't blame Standard card design on 1 mana cantrips/card selection. This is one of the few areas they are really careful in regards to eternal.
Now, Desert. The problem with Desert is quite simple. It's a land (the card type in Standard with least playable answers), it answers creatures and allows favorable trades early game, and for a very limited tempo cost. I wouldn't ask for an answer like Desert if I were you. The card slots into every deck, meaning that it warps the format against small creatures. That's not ideal. Answers that don't require any color to play severely warps the format they're in, see Dismember. There's a question about mana effeciency compared to Dismember. (Desert basically pays 1 mana to deal 1 damage, while Dismember trades life for removal, a much better deal.) But please try to realize that the more powerful answers we need shouldn't be colorless, uncounterable and costing no mana to put on the battlefield.
Understand that they completely agree with you that they have went overboard with threat power right now. The basis of my arguments is that they want freedom to make Standard as interesting as possible, and to be blunt, Standard isn't particularly interesting right now. And it's not just uninteresting for players that like Draw-Go. WotC has made some serious mistakes in regards to threat power.
I wouldn't expect Lightning Bolt (and probably not Mana Leak either - the card has similar issues in locking down early game board development, which severely hampers the game pace) but they'll definitely power up answers because in spite of all the arguments I presented above, they have made threats too powerful compared to answers. I await Hour of Devastation eagerly. It's probably not before the fall set that we'll see a proper answer (as Hour of Devastation's vision and tempo infrastructure was already in place when they realized answers were too weak) but we might see some remedies this summer.
why just target player? Why not target player, Planeswalker or creature?
WRT damage, target player and planeswalker is pretty much the same. Your Sunscorched Deserts though are not the answer to Leyline of Sanctity, however.
Well... regardless, why not creatures? You're trading away your landfall, card advantage and mana for a measly 1 point. At least make it flexible.
Good 1 mana cantrips, I assume you mean quality card selection like Preordain, becaue we just got a beater Sphinx that cycles for U. The reason they don't print Preordain-like cards isn't actually Standard. It's because of concerns with eternal formats, particularly Modern. 1 mana blue cantrips are incredibly powerful there as they severely empower the tempo of blue combo decks. Of all things, don't blame Standard card design on 1 mana cantrips/card selection. This is one of the few areas they are really careful in regards to eternal.
They could easily print Preordain itself (or Ponder, or, i don't know, Serum visions) and eternal formats wouldn't even flinch
why just target player? Why not target player, Planeswalker or creature?
WRT damage, target player and planeswalker is pretty much the same. Your Sunscorched Deserts though are not the answer to Leyline of Sanctity, however.
Well... regardless, why not creatures? You're trading away your landfall, card advantage and mana for a measly 1 point. At least make it flexible.
Wait what? My Scorched Desert? I don't want it.
You're trading nothing. You still get your land drop and mana, it just produces colorless mana instead of colored mana. You're not giving up card advantage, you're gaining card advantage. You get to keep a card in play, while killing an opponents creature. The only possible thing you lose, and more often than not you won't lose it, is tempo. That will only happen if you want to kill their creature with your land drop, and because of the land being colorless, it prevents you from casting a spell another land would have allowed you to cast.
This is the same problem that Desert had, just on a smaller scale, and it was discussed at length as to how Desert can warp both a limited and standard environment in this thread.
why just target player? Why not target player, Planeswalker or creature?
WRT damage, target player and planeswalker is pretty much the same. Your Sunscorched Deserts though are not the answer to Leyline of Sanctity, however.
Well... regardless, why not creatures? You're trading away your landfall, card advantage and mana for a measly 1 point. At least make it flexible.
Wait what? My Scorched Desert? I don't want it.
How are you trading any of those things? It still triggers landfall, it's still card advantage, and it still taps for mana? I guess in your mono green llanowar elf/leatherback baloth/Kalhani Hydra chroma deck the card is dead but ok.
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It's incredibly obvious to me that for the past few years Design has been doing a good job, but Devlopment has been screwing up majorly. Maro must be pissed that not only does his work get sabotaged by Development, but he then bears the blame for booooring Standard environments.
Wither was originally in this set. Would have been awesome. Development took it out. Development was also solely responsible for stellar decisions like Siege Rhino and Reflector Mage (and, I think, Felidar Guardian, but I'm not sure about that).
They can't be serious. Really???
I'm really starting to wonder what really goes on behind closed doors at Wizards/Hasbro. Might as well ban Prodigal Sorcerer then.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Ah yes. We wouldn't want the precious servos and thopters to get sand stuck in their cogs and circuitry. Much too dangerous.
You mean the format that has 2-3 times more tier 1 decks? With multiple more archetypes? and a dozen tier 2 decks that can compete? You realize you are talking about the format that a year ago went through the 'eldrazi winter' where the creatures from STANDARD were TOO POWERFUL for modern's answers!!! so I did look at modern; and the last thing to warp modern was ironically STANDARD'S CREATURES. I would say I rest my case, but I thought I should also point out that the designers of the game also agree that the answers are too weak. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I don't know what else to tell you.
Or the fact that those serves and thopters will start trading with X/2's? In a standard environment where creatures, and combat in general, are pushed, why introduce free pinging? It's also not even a "downside" to running them as you currently have colorless eldrazi and a heavy artifact presence.
Seriously, I know it's the "cool thing to do" to hate on things that you may not fully understand, but instead of just whipping out one-liners, take a look at the context in which these cards would be introduced.
Same goes for the removal spoiled. Many wanted instant speed, simply because of copycat, but this isn't the last set ever to be printed. It's a slippery slope to just start printing efficient answers in every block, ecspecialy ones that unconditionally hit creatures in an era where creatures are the primary focus of every block, and also with an even greater emphasis on limited, hard, efficient, removal is just too good.
Well, I don't know what to tell you. We're discussing 2 different things here. Eldrazi winter wasn't due to Wizards printing game breaking creatures in Standard, it was because the creatures printed in BFZ played perfectly with cards printed in ROE. What were they to do, super-nerf the BFZ eldrazi because Eye of Ugin was a thing? Or Eldrazi Temple? Your argument literally makes no sense. I was referring to things like the "bolt test", or being able to generate enough value to outweigh Path to Exile. The modern cardpool is what, 12-14 times larger than that of Standard? Yet very, VERY, few creatures ever make their way into top decks. Why? Because the removal is too good. It obviously goes beyond modern, but I thought you'd be able to pick up on that.
If you really think that adding Hero's downfall to the standard card pool was going to fix anything, you're flat out WRONG.
Oh I picked up on everything you were saying, you just clearly either haven't played the game long enough, or you just don't like playing games that are fair, or balanced. You're arguments make it pretty clear you are more of a "play big beater on tempo" kinda guy, who hates having his game plan disrupted in any way. that's fine. You aren't wrong about Eye of Ugin, but then again, modern's answers still weren't strong enough. They needed their ban. YOU were just advocating a ban in standard to get rid of (educated guess) the creature part of the combo. And why would that need to happen if we had better answers. If you DON'T think hero's downfall would effect a turn four 3 color combo in standard, well.......I go back to my original response, you clearly haven't played long enough.
I would love to see Fallen Angel with the old art again. Not a huge fan of Desolation Angel or Crypt Angel though.
I guess Land Leeches can be considered a type of vampire. But there's plenty of real life examples to take from like the Vampire Finch that might fit green.
But with all the top down design WotC is doing I can'timagine we'll see such ilk again.
From Maro's Blogatog:
EDIT: Just noticed the discussion about Deserts.
Guys, the problem with Desert is that it's a land with a repeatable removal effect. It requires very little to include in your deck too. The problem with it is the same as the problem with Smuggler's Copter - it slots into almost anything, so it's going to be very ubiquitous if they reprint it. It additionally warps the whole environment in the set design, meaning that they have to be very careful about the size of creatures. This severely hampers the flexibility of R&D's design process, as suddenly X/1s and X/2s are in the danger zone out of simply having too little toughness for the environment. This is why the card is powerful, because printing it would severely limit which creatures were playable. And R&D decided the tradeoff wasn't worth it, that the cost of including desert wasn't worth it in regards to deck ubiquitous building, limitations on design and development, and warping the format away from small creatures.
It's the same logic they used to stop printing mana dorks at cmc 1, because then their flexibility in regards to designing cmc 3 green cards would be incredibly hampered. Removing mana dorks at cmc 1 was because it loosens the design restrictions and gives them more freedom in regards to designing a format that's as fun for their consumers as possible. It's the same reason they stopped printing Dark Ritual and started reprinting Hypnotic Specter - because they realized which of the two was unhealthy for the format.
Also... Why do you guys even care? Would Desert really have made Standard more fun for you? Would the reprint be exciting? I understand that the card is flavorful, but wouldn't you just rather have new Desert cards (which they are hinting at heavily) that are just more interesting than a reprint most of you probably think is a throwaway card in eternal formats anyways?
I don't say it often but...
THIS.
People see "Too strong for standard" and immediately they go "OMG WOTC POWERING DOWN STANDARD NOW CARD X IS TOO STRONG" but they don't look at the bigger picture behind it. There are a lot of factors in the current standard that would've caused issues with Desert, so I'm glad they didn't reprint it. It wouldn't have been too STRONG for Standard, but it would've certainly limited build choices by too much.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Sorry but they are trying to make an enviroment so weak for some type of cards that others like Desert that overral isn't overpowered at all, but somehow managed to become too strong in this enviroment.
Well they said that recently that they understand that they need betetr awnsers so i'll give them the benefit of doubt since Amonkhet was most likelly already made when they finally grasped the problem.
But thanks to our complains that they took the hint that standard has became a mess with way too many pwoerfull threats while making other cards suffer because is unfun or too strong.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Unlike a Counterspell or a black removal spell, Desert can go into literally any deck. They just decided that, to a certain degree, having to balance every creature around Deserts activated ability wasn't worth it. Neither does that mean they consider it too powerful to be printed in a Standard set ever again, nor that they will never print efficient removal again.
I was sad that we didn't get Miscalculation too, but jeez, calm down people.
The new Roar of the Wurm is predictable, but not enough of a twist. I fully expected 3W for the "flashback" cost... but nope. Having only a single green in it's mana cost is a little tone-deaf too. Splashing is nice and all that, but it's a rare - you should have to work to cast it in limited.
Never to Return is yet another of this cycle - and it seems very wasteful of competent names. Sure, this is a fair kill spell (that doesn't stop cat combo), but the bottom half is both flavorless, as it can exilenon-creatures, and costs an obscene amount of mana. Or was Shamble Back too broken in the current format to print?
This set is full of moderate hits and giant flavor mistakes.
why just target player? Why not target player, Planeswalker or creature?
I strongly dislike it when someone from WotC says they can't do something, when they mean they are choosing not to do something.
I'll address your concerns here, going by each of your examples.
Reprinting Lightning Bolt in particular makes red very powerful, meaning that power will be transfered from other new exciting red cards to Lightning Bolt. This is in order to maintain a balanced environment. And while Lightning Bolt isn't an unexciting reprint (in fact it's a pet card of mine) WotC wants to allocate power to new cards so eternal formats can be continually expanded upon. If players get no new exciting cards for eternal, they'll get unhappy. Therefore Lightning Bolt isn't something they're very eager to reprint. That said, while Lightning Bolt is a very very good card, it's not completely off the table, as the card is (somewhat) fair. Maro, although not a power level guy, has stated this plenty of times. It's just a question about priorities, and Lightning Bolt is an incredibly powerful card that warps standard, killing everything toughness 3 and less, and allowing favorable trades - and reach - late game. For one mana. Instant speed.
The interesting thing is that in reality Elvish Mystic isn't off the table either. They just realized that starting mana dorks at cmc 2 by default severely increased the design space of cmc 3 green cards. Maro has stated here, too, that one drop mana dorks can be printed, it's just improbable with the current ebb and flow of the game. They prefer the possibility to make Standard as interesting as possible.
But in regards to reprinting really powerful utility cards, refer to the Thoughtseize reprint. They tried that as an experiment to figure out whether players like high profile reprints like that. While MonoB Devotion became an incredibly powerful deck, meaning that black didn't suffer particularly in regards to power allocation, but due to unfavorable player reactions, they found the experiment unsuccesful. (Note that they are actively listening to player response here.)
However there is another factor here. Contrary to Lightning Bolt discard spells are perceived similar to counterspells, in that players experience that they don't get to play the cards in question. They'll probably print more potent discard spells in the future, but don't expect them to print anything on the level of Thoughtseize. Amusingly, from what I gather, I believe Inquisition of Kozilek is a fine reprint for WotC as it requires some deckbuilding and play considerations (which Thoughtseize really doesn't do that much in Type 2). They considered reprinting it in BfZ but decided not to due to the fact that it wasn't colorless - meaning that it would be a flavor disconnect in Devoid Eldrazi world. It's the same reason they didn't reprint Ghostfire (as it, while basically having Devoid, wasn't flavored as an Eldrazi card in a set where colorless/devoid was the central identity of the Eldrazi).
Good 1 mana cantrips, I assume you mean quality card selection like Preordain, becaue we just got a beater Sphinx that cycles for U. The reason they don't print Preordain-like cards isn't actually Standard. It's because of concerns with eternal formats, particularly Modern. 1 mana blue cantrips are incredibly powerful there as they severely empower the tempo of blue combo decks. Of all things, don't blame Standard card design on 1 mana cantrips/card selection. This is one of the few areas they are really careful in regards to eternal.
Now, Desert. The problem with Desert is quite simple. It's a land (the card type in Standard with least playable answers), it answers creatures and allows favorable trades early game, and for a very limited tempo cost. I wouldn't ask for an answer like Desert if I were you. The card slots into every deck, meaning that it warps the format against small creatures. That's not ideal. Answers that don't require any color to play severely warps the format they're in, see Dismember. There's a question about mana effeciency compared to Dismember. (Desert basically pays 1 mana to deal 1 damage, while Dismember trades life for removal, a much better deal.) But please try to realize that the more powerful answers we need shouldn't be colorless, uncounterable and costing no mana to put on the battlefield.
Understand that they completely agree with you that they have went overboard with threat power right now. The basis of my arguments is that they want freedom to make Standard as interesting as possible, and to be blunt, Standard isn't particularly interesting right now. And it's not just uninteresting for players that like Draw-Go. WotC has made some serious mistakes in regards to threat power.
I wouldn't expect Lightning Bolt (and probably not Mana Leak either - the card has similar issues in locking down early game board development, which severely hampers the game pace) but they'll definitely power up answers because in spite of all the arguments I presented above, they have made threats too powerful compared to answers. I await Hour of Devastation eagerly. It's probably not before the fall set that we'll see a proper answer (as Hour of Devastation's vision and tempo infrastructure was already in place when they realized answers were too weak) but we might see some remedies this summer.
Well... regardless, why not creatures? You're trading away your landfall, card advantage and mana for a measly 1 point. At least make it flexible.
Wait what? My Scorched Desert? I don't want it.
They could easily print Preordain itself (or Ponder, or, i don't know, Serum visions) and eternal formats wouldn't even flinch
You're trading nothing. You still get your land drop and mana, it just produces colorless mana instead of colored mana. You're not giving up card advantage, you're gaining card advantage. You get to keep a card in play, while killing an opponents creature. The only possible thing you lose, and more often than not you won't lose it, is tempo. That will only happen if you want to kill their creature with your land drop, and because of the land being colorless, it prevents you from casting a spell another land would have allowed you to cast.
This is the same problem that Desert had, just on a smaller scale, and it was discussed at length as to how Desert can warp both a limited and standard environment in this thread.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
How are you trading any of those things? It still triggers landfall, it's still card advantage, and it still taps for mana? I guess in your mono green llanowar elf/leatherback baloth/Kalhani Hydra chroma deck the card is dead but ok.