This is actually solid, i'm just unhappy because it's not Miscalculation.
As anyone who has actually played with Force Spike or Daze can tell you people end up tapping out a surprising amount of the time particularly early game and making someone pay 1 extra functions like a hard counter enough of the time to be playable (just think of Mardu, GB or CopyCat they want to curve and tap out at many different stages). Being able to cycle away for only U also means that once you get past that stage it will at least still be able to draw you a card.
Seriously, this is SO true. Early game, how often do players wait an extra turn to drop Gideon or the Heart? And if so, you're already ahead on tempo if you're making them keep an extra mana open for fear of this counter.
And the single U cycling cost is what makes this so, SOOO much better than an overcosted Force Spike.
Not spectacular, but a reasonable card that will see standard play. Counterspells should never be great anyway.
If it's any consolation prowling serpopod wouldn't see play even if counterspells were great. It's a much worse card than this is by far.
It's a Standard staple. Blue needed exactly this, something concrete for the early game as well as staying relevant later. Not to mention the cycling synergies...I think U/W/x is shaping up to be a contender. This thing with Drake Haven...gravy.
You have to be trolling. Unless there is an Astral Slide level cycling deck, this is garbage.
This is actually solid, i'm just unhappy because it's not Miscalculation.
As anyone who has actually played with Force Spike or Daze can tell you people end up tapping out a surprising amount of the time particularly early game and making someone pay 1 extra functions like a hard counter enough of the time to be playable (just think of Mardu, GB or CopyCat they want to curve and tap out at many different stages). Being able to cycle away for only U also means that once you get past that stage it will at least still be able to draw you a card.
Seriously, this is SO true. Early game, how often do players wait an extra turn to drop Gideon or the Heart? And if so, you're already ahead on tempo if you're making them keep an extra mana open for fear of this counter.
And the single U cycling cost is what makes this so, SOOO much better than an overcosted Force Spike.
Negate counters both those things and is never a dead card for the same cost. This counterspell is going to be a very hard sell if Rebuff never made it. I like that it has cycling as that's genuinely amazing but the card's existence is just insulting on a whole. But I could 8 single blue cyclers (4 Sphinx and 4 of this) so control should be pretty dang consistent if anything.
Is Force Spike really too good?
Perhaps they should make a variant that costs 1 mana less if you have 7 or more cards in hand. I think that would be slightly flavorful.
People keep comparing this to silumgar's scorn. The main reason why people tended to not play around it is that it also had a hard counter mode. Waiting to leave mana up only to have your opponent have a dragon wasn't worth it, and it was better to just jam your threat out there. Since the only mode for this is force spike, people will absolutely play around it. Maybe you will get someone in game one, but after that, this spell is worthless.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Honestly, this isn't that bad. It isn't good enough to see Modern play, but it should be good with Drake Haven in Standard. I could definitely see something like this being good.
This is actually solid, i'm just unhappy because it's not Miscalculation.
As anyone who has actually played with Force Spike or Daze can tell you people end up tapping out a surprising amount of the time particularly early game and making someone pay 1 extra functions like a hard counter enough of the time to be playable (just think of Mardu, GB or CopyCat they want to curve and tap out at many different stages). Being able to cycle away for only U also means that once you get past that stage it will at least still be able to draw you a card.
Seriously, this is SO true. Early game, how often do players wait an extra turn to drop Gideon or the Heart? And if so, you're already ahead on tempo if you're making them keep an extra mana open for fear of this counter.
And the single U cycling cost is what makes this so, SOOO much better than an overcosted Force Spike.
Negate counters both those things and is never a dead card for the same cost. This counterspell is going to be a very hard sell if Rebuff never made it. I like that it has cycling as that's genuinely amazing but the card's existence is just insulting on a whole. But I could 8 single blue cyclers (4 Sphinx and 4 of this) so control should be pretty dang consistent if anything.
You are extraordinarily fortunate if Negate was never a dead draw for you. Granted, we're in a unique Standard meta where the top aggro deck runs non-creature spells as its biggest threats, but the vast majority of the time otherwise, mainboarding Negates was asking for dead draws in aggro matchups. In fact, counterspells in general are usually not as great as straight-up removal against aggro (actually, sweepers are normally ideal, but Mardu Vehicles is annoying resilient to them, thanks to Gideon and Heart not being creatures unless they are attacking).
Point being, this is going to be great early game when tapping out is the norm, and great for cycling late game when it's not (especially if the deck is built around cycling, which any control deck in Amonkhet Standard should be). If there's a control deck in Standard, these will be in it.
Not spectacular, but a reasonable card that will see standard play. Counterspells should never be great anyway.
If it's any consolation prowling serpopod wouldn't see play even if counterspells were great. It's a much worse card than this is by far.
Why so much hate? I just don't get it
I've been playing for a very long time and I've seen how the game plays when counterspells are good. There have been so many bad environments due to countermagic that it frustrates me a bit to see newer players who haven't experienced it. Even when it's just mana leak and 1 other good one, the format becomes all about countermagic, which completely changes the way all other decks have to play. There isn't any other single color in Magic that can force opponents to have to bait, hold back, and totally alter their tempo the way blue does with good countermagic. Good unconditional countermagic means that anytime you are playing against a deck with blue in it you are in legitimate danger of them time walking you.
While baiting is a fine way to play around this, a skilled player will happily let your bait resolve and kill it with whatever random spot removal is around. Since countermagic invalidates ETB triggers, death triggers, and almost every form of unsolvability it's difficult to find cards that do a good job of making counter control uncomfortable. You need lots of flash, instants, cast triggers, or just plain aggressive cards. Flash is rarely used... especially outside of blue, and many colors don't have good instants that aren't creature removal. It even answers sorceries and instants, which make it far too reliable to just blank your opponent's deck if it's efficient.
It isn't unbeatable by any measure, but it is very unhealthy for the game.
People keep comparing this to silumgar's scorn. The main reason why people tended to not play around it is that it also had a hard counter mode. Waiting to leave mana up only to have your opponent have a dragon wasn't worth it, and it was better to just jam your threat out there. Since the only mode for this is force spike, people will absolutely play around it. Maybe you will get someone in game one, but after that, this spell is worthless.
That's why you play this with Drake Haven. You force your opponent to play around it for a couple of turns, and in the lategame it becomes a 2 mana 2/2 flying cantrip with flash.
Well... Perhaps in the world of cycling and cycling lands... Wizards might be predicting people not laying enough lands and this counterspell is gonna punish them for their greediness.
"hmmm... this control player I am up against got me game one with that crap Censor spell. I am going to wait until turn 3 to cast my
"Heart of Kiran. And... whoops! He got with me with Disallow / Void Shatter / Negate !!!"
Has no one who has posted played legacy? Suspecting your opponent has Daze in hand means you play around it on turns 1-3. Which means you're not casting the spells you want to be casting because you need them to land. If your opponent plays around this card, then you're getting what you want which is time to make land drops.
For Standard or Modern, this only affects your turn two onward, but the amount of time that your opponent is using all their mana during turns 2-4 is quite high. Also, there's nothing saying you can't have OTHER counterspells in your deck for when they wait a turn to play something, at which point you can cycle this card.
Has no one who has posted played legacy? Suspecting your opponent has Daze in hand means you play around it on turns 1-3. Which means you're not casting the spells you want to be casting because you need them to land. If your opponent plays around this card, then you're getting what you want which is time to make land drops.
For Standard or Modern, this only affects your turn two onward, but the amount of time that your opponent is using all their mana during turns 2-4 is quite high. Also, there's nothing saying you can't have OTHER counterspells in your deck for when they wait a turn to play something, at which point you can cycle this card.
If there were an upvote in MTGsalvation you'd get one from me. Well stated.
Has no one who has posted played legacy? Suspecting your opponent has Daze in hand means you play around it on turns 1-3. Which means you're not casting the spells you want to be casting because you need them to land. If your opponent plays around this card, then you're getting what you want which is time to make land drops.
For Standard or Modern, this only affects your turn two onward, but the amount of time that your opponent is using all their mana during turns 2-4 is quite high. Also, there's nothing saying you can't have OTHER counterspells in your deck for when they wait a turn to play something, at which point you can cycle this card.
But Daze is a free counterspell in Legacy/Pauper. You can play a threat while simultaneously protecting that threat. This card forces you to leave two mana open. It will go dead very quickly - you can then cycle it, but I don't see why this couldn't have just been Miscalc.
Not spectacular, but a reasonable card that will see standard play. Counterspells should never be great anyway.
If it's any consolation prowling serpopod wouldn't see play even if counterspells were great. It's a much worse card than this is by far.
Why so much hate? I just don't get it
I've been playing for a very long time and I've seen how the game plays when counterspells are good. There have been so many bad environments due to countermagic that it frustrates me a bit to see newer players who haven't experienced it. Even when it's just mana leak and 1 other good one, the format becomes all about countermagic, which completely changes the way all other decks have to play. There isn't any other single color in Magic that can force opponents to have to bait, hold back, and totally alter their tempo the way blue does with good countermagic. Good unconditional countermagic means that anytime you are playing against a deck with blue in it you are in legitimate danger of them time walking you.
While baiting is a fine way to play around this, a skilled player will happily let your bait resolve and kill it with whatever random spot removal is around. Since countermagic invalidates ETB triggers, death triggers, and almost every form of unsolvability it's difficult to find cards that do a good job of making counter control uncomfortable. You need lots of flash, instants, cast triggers, or just plain aggressive cards. Flash is rarely used... especially outside of blue, and many colors don't have good instants that aren't creature removal. It even answers sorceries and instants, which make it far too reliable to just blank your opponent's deck if it's efficient.
It isn't unbeatable by any measure, but it is very unhealthy for the game.
Ok. Is being forcibly mulliganed T1 by Thoughtsieze/Inquisition healthy for the game?
It doesn't alter how you play, it straight up ruins it unless you got good redundancy in your opening hand. VS players of equal skill, starting with good hands in which the only difference is that one of them gets a good T1 TS vs the other it can potentially decide the game, no? Because the other player cannot respond and the value of his hand will likely be severely diminished - and the ability to catch up, assuming symmetrical play, depends on randomness.
According to MTG Goldfish, TS is played in 83% of Modern decks. If we have effectively banned decent Counterspells from the game, why don't we ban Thoughtsieze as well? If TS is not format warping why is the entire format playing it?
I'm inclined to agree with you about cards like thoughtseize. While discard suffers from becoming quite poor in late game top deck mode, and it is unable to steal tempo like countermagic does, I still think thoughtseize was a little too efficient and led to some bad play patterns as you noted. Probably best to keep discard a little less powerful than that, and I expect they will in the future. They were pretty clear that they didn't like what the card did to standard back in Theros.
Has no one who has posted played legacy? Suspecting your opponent has Daze in hand means you play around it on turns 1-3. Which means you're not casting the spells you want to be casting because you need them to land. If your opponent plays around this card, then you're getting what you want which is time to make land drops.
For Standard or Modern, this only affects your turn two onward, but the amount of time that your opponent is using all their mana during turns 2-4 is quite high. Also, there's nothing saying you can't have OTHER counterspells in your deck for when they wait a turn to play something, at which point you can cycle this card.
But Daze is a free counterspell in Legacy/Pauper. You can play a threat while simultaneously protecting that threat. This card forces you to leave two mana open. It will go dead very quickly - you can then cycle it, but I don't see why this couldn't have just been Miscalc.
It's funny that you think it's simple enough to evaluate the appropriate choice between two possible designs for a standard environment nobody has played at all or even know all the cards of just by looking at the two cards in questions, the new cards, and the existing environment.
You shouldn't expect to see why, because, as much as people here seem to like to ignore when cards they like don't get printed, individual card balancing is much more complicated than balancing in a vacuum (in fact, there isn't really such a thing).
Let's wait and see if a weaker card will be very good in the context of the new standard. And here's a thought- what if because of the possible prevalence and strength of cycling matters cards with enough other good cycling cards, this card ends up being a stronger card in standard than Miscalculation would be because of the cheaper cycling cost? Can anyone here say that won't happen?
Inquisition is very strong, but much different in the way it plays out in standard. Not being able to hit cards that cost 4 or more is a considerable drawback in standard. It isn't reliable at solving late game threats, it can't hit most mass removal, it even misses most planeswalkers. That's way different than a counterspell that can reliably answer all of that and more while also eating the mana you would spend to cast it. Also much different than thoughtseize, which hit exactly what you needed to get rid of every time.
You can see the different in the way Inquisition impacted standard decks... not remotely to the degree that thoughtseize did.
Ok. Is being forcibly mulliganed T1 by Thoughtsieze/Inquisition healthy for the game?
Which is why Wizards regrets reprinting Thoughtseize and has stated they are not planning to do so again.
According to MTG Goldfish, TS is played in 83% of Modern decks. If we have effectively banned decent Counterspells from the game, why don't we ban Thoughtsieze as well? If TS is not format warping why is the entire format playing it?
You should bring that up in a topic about what to ban in Modern rather than in a topic about what is getting printed in a Standard-legal set. These sets are not designed for Modern. If Modern finds something valuable in there, fine, but eternal sets are never the measure of a format. So - unless Thoughtseize is in Standard right now - what's the point of bringing that up here?
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
You're all looking at this card the wrong way. Think of it as a Thought Scour that occasionally counters things instead of milling you for two, and suddenly it becomes an amazing tempo card. Mark my words, this will see play.
Man, its a good thing we got that Cat Snake, and the Jackel to put creatures right on battlefield, because asking players to keep up ONE mana is ROUGH for new players to stomach.
ccording to MTG Goldfish, TS is played in 83% of Modern decks. If we have effectively banned decent Counterspells from the game, why don't we ban Thoughtsieze as well? If TS is not format warping why is the entire format playing it?
I want to like this card, I even want to like the deck it slots into, but I know that unless Copy Cat gets nerfed, Vehicles will ROLF stomp reactive decks into oblivion. Anyone who thinks otherwise probably hasn't jammed standard enough to know the play patterns. Very rarely does Mardu care whether you counter their Scrounger or 1 drop. While you leave up 2 mana, they'll play around this and be disciplined about which threats they force you to react too. Meanwhile, you cycle cards to get 2/2 drakes on T4-5 or 5 and they just regrow scroungers and drop PW's in your face.
Copy Cat just waits patiently until they reach a critical mass on board and hit the opps "I Win". It's weak in a vacuum, and yes it matters. If I need to jump through hoops to get a major pay off while other decks just get to play better cards in me, than I'm doing it wrong.
Cool card, if this makes a major impact in standard I'd be surprised.
Seriously, this is SO true. Early game, how often do players wait an extra turn to drop Gideon or the Heart? And if so, you're already ahead on tempo if you're making them keep an extra mana open for fear of this counter.
And the single U cycling cost is what makes this so, SOOO much better than an overcosted Force Spike.
If it's any consolation prowling serpopod wouldn't see play even if counterspells were great. It's a much worse card than this is by far.
You have to be trolling. Unless there is an Astral Slide level cycling deck, this is garbage.
Negate counters both those things and is never a dead card for the same cost. This counterspell is going to be a very hard sell if Rebuff never made it. I like that it has cycling as that's genuinely amazing but the card's existence is just insulting on a whole. But I could 8 single blue cyclers (4 Sphinx and 4 of this) so control should be pretty dang consistent if anything.
Perhaps they should make a variant that costs 1 mana less if you have 7 or more cards in hand. I think that would be slightly flavorful.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
4 Gideon of the Trials
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Cast Out
4 Censor
4 Dusk to Dawn
4 Blessed Alliance
2 Renewed Faith
4 Stasis Snare
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Island
5 Plains
Why not? When counterspells are bad, control is bad and blue is worse than most other colors.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You are extraordinarily fortunate if Negate was never a dead draw for you. Granted, we're in a unique Standard meta where the top aggro deck runs non-creature spells as its biggest threats, but the vast majority of the time otherwise, mainboarding Negates was asking for dead draws in aggro matchups. In fact, counterspells in general are usually not as great as straight-up removal against aggro (actually, sweepers are normally ideal, but Mardu Vehicles is annoying resilient to them, thanks to Gideon and Heart not being creatures unless they are attacking).
Point being, this is going to be great early game when tapping out is the norm, and great for cycling late game when it's not (especially if the deck is built around cycling, which any control deck in Amonkhet Standard should be). If there's a control deck in Standard, these will be in it.
I've been playing for a very long time and I've seen how the game plays when counterspells are good. There have been so many bad environments due to countermagic that it frustrates me a bit to see newer players who haven't experienced it. Even when it's just mana leak and 1 other good one, the format becomes all about countermagic, which completely changes the way all other decks have to play. There isn't any other single color in Magic that can force opponents to have to bait, hold back, and totally alter their tempo the way blue does with good countermagic. Good unconditional countermagic means that anytime you are playing against a deck with blue in it you are in legitimate danger of them time walking you.
While baiting is a fine way to play around this, a skilled player will happily let your bait resolve and kill it with whatever random spot removal is around. Since countermagic invalidates ETB triggers, death triggers, and almost every form of unsolvability it's difficult to find cards that do a good job of making counter control uncomfortable. You need lots of flash, instants, cast triggers, or just plain aggressive cards. Flash is rarely used... especially outside of blue, and many colors don't have good instants that aren't creature removal. It even answers sorceries and instants, which make it far too reliable to just blank your opponent's deck if it's efficient.
It isn't unbeatable by any measure, but it is very unhealthy for the game.
That's why you play this with Drake Haven. You force your opponent to play around it for a couple of turns, and in the lategame it becomes a 2 mana 2/2 flying cantrip with flash.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
"Heart of Kiran. And... whoops! He got with me with Disallow / Void Shatter / Negate !!!"
C Long Live Eldrazi C
For Standard or Modern, this only affects your turn two onward, but the amount of time that your opponent is using all their mana during turns 2-4 is quite high. Also, there's nothing saying you can't have OTHER counterspells in your deck for when they wait a turn to play something, at which point you can cycle this card.
If there were an upvote in MTGsalvation you'd get one from me. Well stated.
But Daze is a free counterspell in Legacy/Pauper. You can play a threat while simultaneously protecting that threat. This card forces you to leave two mana open. It will go dead very quickly - you can then cycle it, but I don't see why this couldn't have just been Miscalc.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
U, instant, your opponents spells cost one more. Draw a card.
Which is a pretty powerful magic card in my opinion.
I'm inclined to agree with you about cards like thoughtseize. While discard suffers from becoming quite poor in late game top deck mode, and it is unable to steal tempo like countermagic does, I still think thoughtseize was a little too efficient and led to some bad play patterns as you noted. Probably best to keep discard a little less powerful than that, and I expect they will in the future. They were pretty clear that they didn't like what the card did to standard back in Theros.
It's funny that you think it's simple enough to evaluate the appropriate choice between two possible designs for a standard environment nobody has played at all or even know all the cards of just by looking at the two cards in questions, the new cards, and the existing environment.
You shouldn't expect to see why, because, as much as people here seem to like to ignore when cards they like don't get printed, individual card balancing is much more complicated than balancing in a vacuum (in fact, there isn't really such a thing).
Let's wait and see if a weaker card will be very good in the context of the new standard. And here's a thought- what if because of the possible prevalence and strength of cycling matters cards with enough other good cycling cards, this card ends up being a stronger card in standard than Miscalculation would be because of the cheaper cycling cost? Can anyone here say that won't happen?
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You can see the different in the way Inquisition impacted standard decks... not remotely to the degree that thoughtseize did.
Which is why Wizards regrets reprinting Thoughtseize and has stated they are not planning to do so again.
You should bring that up in a topic about what to ban in Modern rather than in a topic about what is getting printed in a Standard-legal set. These sets are not designed for Modern. If Modern finds something valuable in there, fine, but eternal sets are never the measure of a format. So - unless Thoughtseize is in Standard right now - what's the point of bringing that up here?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Spirits
83!?
Mtgtop8 has it at 26%.
What would cause such a wide discrepancy?
Copy Cat just waits patiently until they reach a critical mass on board and hit the opps "I Win". It's weak in a vacuum, and yes it matters. If I need to jump through hoops to get a major pay off while other decks just get to play better cards in me, than I'm doing it wrong.
Cool card, if this makes a major impact in standard I'd be surprised.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn