Bicycle lands? (Evan Erwin on twitter)
Amonkhet lands? (boring)
c'mon guys! Get the creative juices flowing ...
Never-played-outside-Standard lands.
Seriously, these look like they needed to fill the rare lands quota and just upgraded an EtbT uncommon dual with cycling by giving them basic land types.
How did you feel about the Scry lands? Those are just totally uncommon ETBT lands that have scry tacked on.
I think they will get play in plenty of budget builds and most certainly in 'lands going to the graveyard matters' decks in modern. (I'll hold out hope for a broken fluctuator combo in legacy but no promises :p)
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Mmmm. I just realized, that the next set really IS the best place to put the enemy-colored versions of these lands in, because, we may never know when cycling comes around again. Oh my goodness, that sucks, I hope WOTC is smart about this.
Why do they always need to come into play tapped? :'|
If they didn't, these would be a hell of a lot more powerful than the ABUR duals. Since those cards are on the reserved list, and cards cannot have the exact same likeness as the ABUR duals since they are on the reserved list, WOTC is kind of forced to make the duals as we are seeing them now, mainly with drawbacks. Annoying, I know...
I think the issue with coming into play untapped has little to do with the reserve list. It has more to do with design space. If you design dual lands that can come in untapped with basic land types and cycle, why on earth would you ever play another dual land? How would you ever design future lands that could possibly compete with that? The power creep on a card like that would be dangerous. KnickM hit it right - the format would devolve into 4 color goodstuff like what we just saw with Dragons rotating out last year.
That makes sense. Thank you for better clarifying that.
Bicycle lands? (Evan Erwin on twitter)
Amonkhet lands? (boring)
c'mon guys! Get the creative juices flowing ...
Never-played-outside-Standard lands.
Seriously, these look like they needed to fill the rare lands quota and just upgraded an EtbT uncommon dual with cycling by giving them basic land types.
How did you feel about the Scry lands? Those are just totally uncommon ETBT lands that have scry tacked on.
I think they will get play in plenty of budget builds and most certainly in 'lands going to the graveyard matters' decks in modern. (I'll hold out hope for a broken fluctuator combo in legacy but no promises :p)
I also heavily disliked the Temples. They were the worst rare cycle in years. The decks that want lands in the graveyard can already use fetchlands, Retrace and things like Cathartic Reunion and Liliana of the Veil. The inability of these to come untapped makes them the worst option among duals. Even as budget Shocks, you have the BFZ lands which at least have the possibility to enter untapped, or the M10/Innistrad Checklands.
About the fetcheable part, if you're running fetches you probably don't need budget replacement for shocks, but even if you did you'd rather fetch a basic on turns 1 and 2 instead of losing tempo and a Battleland from turn 3 onward.
Mmmm. I just realized, that the next set really IS the best place to put the enemy-colored versions of these lands in, because, we may never know when cycling comes around again. Oh my goodness, that sucks, I hope WOTC is smart about this.
Cycling is very low on the storm scale. It may take as long as it did to complete the Fastland cycle, but I have no doubt we'll get there.
just remembered that now you'll have twice the amount of lands in standard to reveal to shadow lands, not sure what will be the optimal configuration of duels play in standard though
but scapeshift gets more duels with the mountain subtype to run though, although I'm not sure if they'll run these
Well, I can't say I'm impressed. I agree with two things: one, that them not being to enter untapped is a pretty significant deal breaker over most rare dual lands, and two, that they should have finished another cycle with enemy colors first, because we really need more of those. (I can thik of at least three land cycles that are missing enemy colors....) I guess they're at least worth running over the Tarkir common duals if you have things that care about basic land types (such as Farseek), but outside of that (and Life from the Loam), I am unimpressed. I was really hoping for another completed cycle like Kaladesh had. Oh well...
Also, does it bother anyone else that they misspelled "dual" in the link?
For those arguing about 'ETBT' or not, the issue is not design space or power level. At least not directly. There is a Design rule that dual lands cannot be better than basic lands, and being nonbasic is not enough of a drawback by itself.
As such, Land - Plains Forest, Cycling 2, fails this test.
Yet another kind of new allied color duals? Why won't you just finish what you started and print the enemy half of one of the last new dual land types, Wizards!? Also, there will now be three types of allied duals in standard, but only one type of enemy duals. Booh!
For those arguing about 'ETBT' or not, the issue is not design space or power level. At least not directly. There is a Design rule that dual lands cannot be better than basic lands, and being nonbasic is not enough of a drawback by itself.
As such, Land - Plains Forest, Cycling 2, fails this test.
I don't think that anyone's arguing for "better than ABUR duals". At least, I hope not seriously. I read the request as "can we get a conditional untap rider please".
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Can someone explain to a simple plebeian like myself why these lands are rare? My tiny mind tells me that these are objectively bad without actual fetchlands in the set (for standard). What am I missing?
Not only are these great for Modern, but another set fetchables lands really help for budget/Loam-based EDH decks too. Really happy to see these printed and can't wait to experiment with them
People are hoping the fact they pitch themselves matters, as well as various tricks around lands in the GY, while from an longer view hoping they see play in Modern.
My thought is no. Outside a few fringe strats, you simply cannot afford to come into play tapped in Modern. You need to use your mana in the first 4 turns.
Yet another kind of new allied color duals? Why won't you just finish what you started and print the enemy half of one of the last new dual land types, Wizards!? Also, there will now be three types of allied duals in standard, but only one type of enemy duals. Booh!
Enemy manlands and Enemy fastlands versus these, Shadowlands, and BFZ lands. So 3-2, not 3-1. Notably, both BFZ and manlands were supposed to rotate at the time they were designing these, so it seems likely that Amonkhet or Hour of Devastation will have an Enemy land cycle in it as well. It'll be interesting to see how the mana fixing influences deckbuilding, given that we have more than they anticipated.
More important, I think, is the fact that you can reveal these for shadow lands, then discard them later. Could be wrong though. Otherwise set's looking sweet so far.
You can reveal battle-lands and shock-lands for shadow-lands so you can use these to. Shadow-lands ask for the card subtype, not its name.
I know it's a huge shot in the dark but i hope they print the enemies versions in Hour of Devastation.
I know, I think I worded it poorly. I meant I could be wrong about them not seeing play in modern.
I bet they do print the others in Hour--it's unlikely that they'll revisit cycling right away after this block so if not now, when?
Can someone explain to a simple plebeian like myself why these lands are rare? My tiny mind tells me that these are objectively bad without actual fetchlands in the set (for standard). What am I missing?
Mainly for limited purposes, but these are a tad too powerful for the common/uncommon slot because they have the double land type on them.
It's also a little bit for reprint equity, as in these are a guaranteed way to get value into packs and thus consumer confidence in buying sealed product. If these were less than rare, there'd be a flood of them and they'd be worth next to nothing, but at rare, it drives excitement for people to purchase product from them.
Yet another kind of new allied color duals? Why won't you just finish what you started and print the enemy half of one of the last new dual land types, Wizards!? Also, there will now be three types of allied duals in standard, but only one type of enemy duals. Booh!
It takes years for cycles to be completed in the absence of a certain critical mass of color-combination inclusiveness, barring ABUR which has the excuse of being the first set and operating under the logic that "if it has more than one basic land type then surely the type-hosers will make them balanced!"
Like, Ravnica's ten guilds, that's incentive for the full shockland cycle.
The ten minor gods of Theros, each one being a color pair? There's your ten temples.
Shadowmoor-Eventide being heavy on hybrid mana and Chroma shenanigans? Enjoy ten varieties of filterland, you're going to need all the fixing you can get.
But everything else? The allied cycle practically always comes first, and then it's just a matter of how long it takes for a set to fit the tone required of an enemy color revisit of a prior cycle.
Zendikar's lands-matter theme got us enemy fetches finishing off what Onslaught began, and the revisit got us enemy manlands because much like the first time around two-colored manlands help to reinforce the lands-matter theme that defines Zendikar as a plane.
Khans of Tarkir starting off as a set doing 3-color wedge factions completed the cycle that Alara started with its shards.
We only got enemy taplands how many years since the debut of Invasion taplands? I mean you could argue the guildgates covered that, but if I'm not totally mistaken we got a full cycle of refuge-styled lands before the most simplest of tapland cycles got their straight adaptation to enemy colors, and even then they had to invent a new set of allied color taplands just to make them plane-agnostic and thus easier to justify reprints.
Apocalypse's painlands came years after Ice Age, and tied into it being the enemy color set of Invasion block.
Kaladesh's fastlands were like the most arbitrarily chosen lands I can think of but the Scars of Mirrodin fastlands have been unpaired for years and the enemy colors could use the boost considering they'd be stuck with taplands otherwise.
Admittedly there was some comment by, I want to say Forsythe shot his mouth off on this one, but there's a comment out there to the effect of wanting to finish cycles instead of leaving them open, but the history of Magic has shown that the allied cycle comes first, and then later down the line there's an inclination to do the enemy cycle before just straight up reprinting the allied cycle... with the exception of the M10-Origins core sets excluding M14, where across those sets the allied checklands still saw more reprints than the enemy painlands on like, what, a 2:1 ratio? And for those it was 4 prints of checklands, the M14 gap, then 2 runs of painlands.
Really though, one of the fundamental rules of Magic is that allied colors work together, enemy colors get hated on. It sorta leaks into the manabase development as well, if enemy colors get a cycle of lands before the allied colors then that's a very rare and special moment meant to be conveyed via gameplay as far as I'm aware.
great land! but it really bothers me that they ALWAYS start cycles with the allied color pais...
why can't we have the enemy pairs for a change?
we already have one incomplete dual cycle in the "tangolands"... now we have a second one, and it's likely it won't be complete on the second set of the block, and it has EXACTLY the same color pairs of the tangolands... damn, I can't understand it.
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How did you feel about the Scry lands? Those are just totally uncommon ETBT lands that have scry tacked on.
I think they will get play in plenty of budget builds and most certainly in 'lands going to the graveyard matters' decks in modern. (I'll hold out hope for a broken fluctuator combo in legacy but no promises :p)
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That makes sense. Thank you for better clarifying that.
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I also heavily disliked the Temples. They were the worst rare cycle in years. The decks that want lands in the graveyard can already use fetchlands, Retrace and things like Cathartic Reunion and Liliana of the Veil. The inability of these to come untapped makes them the worst option among duals. Even as budget Shocks, you have the BFZ lands which at least have the possibility to enter untapped, or the M10/Innistrad Checklands.
About the fetcheable part, if you're running fetches you probably don't need budget replacement for shocks, but even if you did you'd rather fetch a basic on turns 1 and 2 instead of losing tempo and a Battleland from turn 3 onward.
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Cycling is very low on the storm scale. It may take as long as it did to complete the Fastland cycle, but I have no doubt we'll get there.
but scapeshift gets more duels with the mountain subtype to run though, although I'm not sure if they'll run these
Also, does it bother anyone else that they misspelled "dual" in the link?
As such, Land - Plains Forest, Cycling 2, fails this test.
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I don't think that anyone's arguing for "better than ABUR duals". At least, I hope not seriously. I read the request as "can we get a conditional untap rider please".
My thought is no. Outside a few fringe strats, you simply cannot afford to come into play tapped in Modern. You need to use your mana in the first 4 turns.
Even the battle lands a risk few decks take.
Spirits
There's always hour of devastation if no enemy versions.
I know, I think I worded it poorly. I meant I could be wrong about them not seeing play in modern.
I bet they do print the others in Hour--it's unlikely that they'll revisit cycling right away after this block so if not now, when?
Personally I'm hoping that Cycling will become evergreen like Scry did, but I don't expect it will.
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Mainly for limited purposes, but these are a tad too powerful for the common/uncommon slot because they have the double land type on them.
It's also a little bit for reprint equity, as in these are a guaranteed way to get value into packs and thus consumer confidence in buying sealed product. If these were less than rare, there'd be a flood of them and they'd be worth next to nothing, but at rare, it drives excitement for people to purchase product from them.
It takes years for cycles to be completed in the absence of a certain critical mass of color-combination inclusiveness, barring ABUR which has the excuse of being the first set and operating under the logic that "if it has more than one basic land type then surely the type-hosers will make them balanced!"
Like, Ravnica's ten guilds, that's incentive for the full shockland cycle.
The ten minor gods of Theros, each one being a color pair? There's your ten temples.
Shadowmoor-Eventide being heavy on hybrid mana and Chroma shenanigans? Enjoy ten varieties of filterland, you're going to need all the fixing you can get.
But everything else? The allied cycle practically always comes first, and then it's just a matter of how long it takes for a set to fit the tone required of an enemy color revisit of a prior cycle.
Zendikar's lands-matter theme got us enemy fetches finishing off what Onslaught began, and the revisit got us enemy manlands because much like the first time around two-colored manlands help to reinforce the lands-matter theme that defines Zendikar as a plane.
Khans of Tarkir starting off as a set doing 3-color wedge factions completed the cycle that Alara started with its shards.
We only got enemy taplands how many years since the debut of Invasion taplands? I mean you could argue the guildgates covered that, but if I'm not totally mistaken we got a full cycle of refuge-styled lands before the most simplest of tapland cycles got their straight adaptation to enemy colors, and even then they had to invent a new set of allied color taplands just to make them plane-agnostic and thus easier to justify reprints.
Apocalypse's painlands came years after Ice Age, and tied into it being the enemy color set of Invasion block.
Kaladesh's fastlands were like the most arbitrarily chosen lands I can think of but the Scars of Mirrodin fastlands have been unpaired for years and the enemy colors could use the boost considering they'd be stuck with taplands otherwise.
Admittedly there was some comment by, I want to say Forsythe shot his mouth off on this one, but there's a comment out there to the effect of wanting to finish cycles instead of leaving them open, but the history of Magic has shown that the allied cycle comes first, and then later down the line there's an inclination to do the enemy cycle before just straight up reprinting the allied cycle... with the exception of the M10-Origins core sets excluding M14, where across those sets the allied checklands still saw more reprints than the enemy painlands on like, what, a 2:1 ratio? And for those it was 4 prints of checklands, the M14 gap, then 2 runs of painlands.
Really though, one of the fundamental rules of Magic is that allied colors work together, enemy colors get hated on. It sorta leaks into the manabase development as well, if enemy colors get a cycle of lands before the allied colors then that's a very rare and special moment meant to be conveyed via gameplay as far as I'm aware.
why can't we have the enemy pairs for a change?
we already have one incomplete dual cycle in the "tangolands"... now we have a second one, and it's likely it won't be complete on the second set of the block, and it has EXACTLY the same color pairs of the tangolands... damn, I can't understand it.
lol I hadn't noticed, but now I can't look away