Yeah I feel as though you haven't been playing super long or don't like playing games against control. Control hasn't had a decent counter since cryptic or remand in standard. That's been 8-10 years. Blue hasn't had card draw since SR. mtg is finally getting burned by having one deminsional decks of drop fat creatures and attack since like alara. Blue has been nerfed since like odyssey. Blue is a hard color to play especially in standard and isn't possible on its own
Says the person talking about cryptic command and remand like they were reasonable cards.
I think a lot of the problem is color identity. Blue's primary identity has been counter magic and card draw. Well the card draw part has been bled all over the color pie. Green and Black arguably have as good card draw (or better!) than blue. Counter magic over the last 4 or 5 years has consistently weakened, with the exception of Disallow. That card is actually good enough to see play. I'd also argue that we saw a good counter in Mana Leak that was last seen in M12. That card is just such a beating with any kind of tempo.
In order for your typical draw-go decks to be viable you need a combination of cards - counterspells, draw spells, a viable win condition, and usually some sort of life gain / board stabilization effect. The last time we really saw this combo was INN/RTR where the countermagic was comparatively weak, but was assisted by great card draw, life gain, and board stabilizers with Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict. The win condition was actually decking your opponent with Nephalia Drownyard
I'm not saying that some sort of draw/go deck has to be dominant, but it should at least be a viable option. In the past several standards, critical elements that make draw-go decks work have been missing. I think the hope is that if there are draw-go hosers like what we see here, we'll see some cards that support the archetype as well.
Yeah I feel as though you haven't been playing super long or don't like playing games against control. Control hasn't had a decent counter since cryptic or remand in standard. That's been 8-10 years. Blue hasn't had card draw since SR. mtg is finally getting burned by having one deminsional decks of drop fat creatures and attack since like alara. Blue has been nerfed since like odyssey. Blue is a hard color to play especially in standard and isn't possible on its own
Says the person talking about cryptic command and remand like they were reasonable cards.
Umm...a 4 mana UUU card...is reasonable.
A card that is nothing but a tempo play...is reasonable.
OblivionedOne has the truth of it, Control has sucked for a LONG time, and Black, and Green, have been pumped through the ROOF.
Yeah I feel as though you haven't been playing super long or don't like playing games against control. Control hasn't had a decent counter since cryptic or remand in standard. That's been 8-10 years. Blue hasn't had card draw since SR. mtg is finally getting burned by having one deminsional decks of drop fat creatures and attack since like alara. Blue has been nerfed since like odyssey. Blue is a hard color to play especially in standard and isn't possible on its own
Says the person talking about cryptic command and remand like they were reasonable cards.
Umm...a 4 mana UUU card...is reasonable.
A card that is nothing but a tempo play...is reasonable.
OblivionedOne has the truth of it, Control has sucked for a LONG time, and Black, and Green, have been pumped through the ROOF.
This logic totally makes sense.
Clearly any card that costs 1UUU is fine, no matter what it does.
Also any card whose effect only impacts tempo is by definition completely balanced.
And yes, only blue decks are control decks. No other colors can be control, so no control deck has been good for years.
Also no blue decks have done well since Alara if you don't count Saheeli Combo, Aetherworks Marvel, Esper Dragons, B/U Control, Spinx's Revelation, Delver, Sultai Whip, Blue devotion, and a bunch of other ones because none of those decks are actually blue... or actually control... or something like that... Because they aren't playing cryptic command which made Magic great because of how well balanced and not format dominating it was. Especially with faeries and 5 color control.
Oh and yes, the green creature in this thread is the real problem with Magic. It's totally unfair.
Well thought out. I don't know why R&D can't see any of this. I totally rescind my previous statements in a non-sarcastic way.
Or we could not jump to excessive exaggerating and you could offer reasons why you think cryptic and remand are unreasonable?
Maybe?
Cryptic is powerful, with cost consideration, UUU.
Remand, costs you no card, and delays an action, that's it.
These are reasonable cards for blue, and are no more powerful than what Wizards has pushed for other colours over the last several years.
But feel free to be a meme, it is the internet after all.
In all seriousness, someone who has actually played Magic with the cards in question wouldn't even be asking that question. Take whatever random standard deck you want and run it up against a deck that's allowed to play cryptic, remand and mana leak and get back to us.
as noted earlier, standard counterspells are so scarce that using them to counter creatures are a waste. when you just can add black or white for targeted or mass creature removal.
seems like a card targeted for newbies as a skill tester card. however it still has a efficient body to cost ratio. so veterans may still pick them up. but for in standard, it's just a vanilla creature.
in short, both sides are getting worked up for nothing.
Who is saying it sucks for blue? Cards like this cat suck for blue, the state of power between blue and black, and green have sucked for some time, and the concept of good blue cards such as Remand and Cryptic being 'unreasonable' in terms of card strength...yeah I'll say thats a bit out of line.
The set doesnt suck for blue (yet) though, its just cards like this are frustrating to see, period.
Until proven otherwise, I will hope that this card is just a response to the upcoming spoilers showing some truly pushed blue counters. :]
You're an angry Aggro player it's alright. No one likes building a deck that wins on paper against a deck that has no answers and it losing to better players. I get it.
First off, tempo is a style, so yeah remand is pretty great but it wouldn't see play beyond modern. It's not a 'great' counterspell and involves ALOT of skill to play properly and be effective. And your reasoning for any card having triple color in it isn't what he was talking about. He's saying it's balanced because it cost 4 mana 3 being blue. That forces you heavy into blue. The card is good. It's dismiss with two other modes. It's probably the best counter printed since like 2003. So one card in 15 years that's great for blue. Why are you complaining.... I can give you 5 cards in all but red that are just as God in that span. So stop complaining bro.
Countering spells is not interaction. It's not working around things. It's preventing them from ever happening.
It's no wonder wizards is cutting down on those things. Besides, why are you complaining? You are the primary card draw color! You have the option to get more options more than the rest of us do!
Considering the theme of the invocation cards is Control, and the mainset printing of Aven Mindcensor tells us that probably a few more of those invocation cards will be printed within the mainset, I'm willing to bet we see some strong control cards printed in this set. This cat-snake seems to herald that theme as well.
Considering the theme of the invocation cards is Control, and the mainset printing of Aven Mindcensor tells us that probably a few more of those invocation cards will be printed within the mainset, I'm willing to bet we see some strong control cards printed in this set. This cat-snake seems to herald that theme as well.
The theme for Invocations is more power of the Gods, not Control. At least that's what Maro said it is.
Yeah, this definitely screams for powerful countermagic orientation. So far there are many cards that for no reason can't be countered(except for Disallow and the graveyard interaction).
Like wpgstevo said. It is now or never. Expecting powerful non-creature spells that are reactive is reasonable from this set.
It definitely is possible that they will reprint Miscalculation.
wow. in standard right now white can exile all copies of your biggest threat for W1, but MANA LEAK WOULD WARP STANDARD? The real problem people have with null magic based control is that it doesn't allow THEM to CONTROL the tempo of the game. Since all we have is tempo (for the last several years almost) and a combo deck here and there, people expect to play THEIR game of magic not THE game of magic. This is how we have been spoiled with way to much good stuff cards and no where near enough answers. I hate counterspells too! BUT WE NEED THEM, to keep the players of the game honest. Or do we really want decks like abzan, mardu vehicles, and constrictor decks to be the only options from now on. I like the game of magic, all of it; combo, tempo, control, aggro, draw-go, recursion, you name it. right now we have a max of 2 of those at any given time, sometimes 3 if we are lucky. I'm glad they want to print answers. This green guy is an answer, but an answer to a problem we don't have anymore. They need to just expand the game and let the different archetypes have some real weapons all at the same time
green thing is neato! kinda pushed though. kind of irritating that that it hoses counter magic so hard while having such a big power for the cost, but meh.
The current discussion is a bit unhinged. Some people sound like counterspells are the only possible answers or like no monoblue decks is a problem specific to blue and not sonething that you could say swapping out every single other color. You know what I read when I am checking out Top 8 decks in Standard of the recent time? Mardu, Jund, Temur, Golgari, CopyCat, 4C Copycat.
People complain about blue being weak compared to black-green, but I am looking at a Top 8 with not a single even partially green deck from the last month, but everysingle one using red and white. A week later Disallow, Negate and Void Shatter were good enough to place first at a Grand Prix.
Sure, there are answers missing, but mono-blue control is still not going to happen because manabases are still consistentl<y strong enough to support any second color. And control will be equally much about the quality of removal increasing as about the quality of counterspells improving.
You can stop your post right after that question. You misunderstood. No one said Mana Leak would warp Standard (unless you define "WARP" as anything that shifts the metagame/sees play - which Mana Leak would and you disagreeing would be silly). That's just you interpreting an exagerated meaning into what was actually said. It would certainly make waves being the best counterspell in Standard and accordingly influence the power level of other blue cards that would be released during the same time - but no one claimed this would be on the level the term "Standard-warping" usually connotes.
Mana Leak was named as the least of multiple examples if you pay close attention.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Says the person talking about cryptic command and remand like they were reasonable cards.
In order for your typical draw-go decks to be viable you need a combination of cards - counterspells, draw spells, a viable win condition, and usually some sort of life gain / board stabilization effect. The last time we really saw this combo was INN/RTR where the countermagic was comparatively weak, but was assisted by great card draw, life gain, and board stabilizers with Sphinx's Revelation and Supreme Verdict. The win condition was actually decking your opponent with Nephalia Drownyard
I'm not saying that some sort of draw/go deck has to be dominant, but it should at least be a viable option. In the past several standards, critical elements that make draw-go decks work have been missing. I think the hope is that if there are draw-go hosers like what we see here, we'll see some cards that support the archetype as well.
Umm...a 4 mana UUU card...is reasonable.
A card that is nothing but a tempo play...is reasonable.
OblivionedOne has the truth of it, Control has sucked for a LONG time, and Black, and Green, have been pumped through the ROOF.
Spirits
This logic totally makes sense.
Maybe?
Cryptic is powerful, with cost consideration, UUU.
Remand, costs you no card, and delays an action, that's it.
These are reasonable cards for blue, and are no more powerful than what Wizards has pushed for other colours over the last several years.
But feel free to be a meme, it is the internet after all.
Spirits
In all seriousness, someone who has actually played Magic with the cards in question wouldn't even be asking that question. Take whatever random standard deck you want and run it up against a deck that's allowed to play cryptic, remand and mana leak and get back to us.
I'm not suggesting standard players of today can handle all 3 at the same time, I mean think of the children...
To state they are unreasonable however in the face of years of pushed creatures is mystifying.
Spirits
Any one of those would be the best card in standard if printed presently. Even mana leak.
Agree to disagree I suppose.
I actually wondered whether that one will be an aspect of the black God we're getting.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Yet, Rebuff isn't even top 50 based on mtggoldfish.
EDIT: And yes 'non-artifact' but still, if Leak would be the BEST, I would expect Rebuff to be something? I mean Negate and Dispel are higher rated.
Spirits
seems like a card targeted for newbies as a skill tester card. however it still has a efficient body to cost ratio. so veterans may still pick them up. but for in standard, it's just a vanilla creature.
in short, both sides are getting worked up for nothing.
........................
The set doesnt suck for blue (yet) though, its just cards like this are frustrating to see, period.
Until proven otherwise, I will hope that this card is just a response to the upcoming spoilers showing some truly pushed blue counters. :]
Spirits
First off, tempo is a style, so yeah remand is pretty great but it wouldn't see play beyond modern. It's not a 'great' counterspell and involves ALOT of skill to play properly and be effective. And your reasoning for any card having triple color in it isn't what he was talking about. He's saying it's balanced because it cost 4 mana 3 being blue. That forces you heavy into blue. The card is good. It's dismiss with two other modes. It's probably the best counter printed since like 2003. So one card in 15 years that's great for blue. Why are you complaining.... I can give you 5 cards in all but red that are just as God in that span. So stop complaining bro.
Spirits
Lifecrafter's Bestiary, Tireless Tracker, Cathartic Reunion, Cryptbreaker, Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, Thraben Inspector, Ob-Nixilis Reignited, two versions of Nissa, Painful Truths, Sram, Senior Edificer, Live Fast, Succumb To Temptation, Tormenting Voice all disagree.
The last 2 good blue spells got banned anywhere worth playing, for everything else, play BG.
Spirits
Today's newer players cannot handle interaction. They just want to thoughtlessly jam their cards and turn em sideways.
Spirits
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The theme for Invocations is more power of the Gods, not Control. At least that's what Maro said it is.
It definitely is possible that they will reprint Miscalculation.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
People complain about blue being weak compared to black-green, but I am looking at a Top 8 with not a single even partially green deck from the last month, but everysingle one using red and white. A week later Disallow, Negate and Void Shatter were good enough to place first at a Grand Prix.
Sure, there are answers missing, but mono-blue control is still not going to happen because manabases are still consistentl<y strong enough to support any second color. And control will be equally much about the quality of removal increasing as about the quality of counterspells improving.
You can stop your post right after that question. You misunderstood. No one said Mana Leak would warp Standard (unless you define "WARP" as anything that shifts the metagame/sees play - which Mana Leak would and you disagreeing would be silly). That's just you interpreting an exagerated meaning into what was actually said. It would certainly make waves being the best counterspell in Standard and accordingly influence the power level of other blue cards that would be released during the same time - but no one claimed this would be on the level the term "Standard-warping" usually connotes.
Mana Leak was named as the least of multiple examples if you pay close attention.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO