I'm digging the theme of this set. The 'gimmicky tokens' is also kinda fun-looking. New Gravedigger art is hype, this is starting to look like a fun limited.
I see the "Decrees" from Scourge set being printed as invocations, mostly because they are BIG powerful spells that also have cycling, that fit the them of set as cycling is in it.
Because zombies have historically been black
That's why it's controversial
I can't believe I actually had to type that out
I came here to comment on this issue.
A zombie is a walking desecration.
A zombie is:
1) Mockery of life,
2) made by powers that are playing god,
3) is not possible without disturbing the dead.
Perhaps they should have gone with a new creature type like the actual Mummy or perhaps I've gotten too old.
Creatures that can't even pass the Dark Banishing test are becoming zombies, what has the world come to...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cult of the Succubi Eating Kitten and Brotherhood of Hamsters - Zombie One/Hulking One - Brotherhood of Hamsters disapproves of Damage on the Stack amputation, the corruption of Mythics, and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.
Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
But White has been playing God and disturbing/raising the dead from Alpha through more recent Modern cards and even into Eldritch Moon. It's always been a thing they do.
Mechanics look like mostly re-runs. New counters seem like extra work. Just turn the card upside-down for the doubletap ability?? use regular pennies/whatever for the bricks since they will likely be on noncreature artifacts? (I know the trend is always to complain, sure, but I can't imagine being excited for refined mechanics rather than new ones even if I did play this game religiously).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Latest proof this forum is a trashfire:
Your authoritarianism will be the reason the company suffers another 60M in losses.
But White has been playing God and disturbing/raising the dead from Alpha through more recent Modern cards and even into Eldritch Moon. It's always been a thing they do.
The original statement was "Why is this controversial?" It's not the recursion/graveyard interaction that's controversial. It's making zombies purely white that's a deviation from historical norms. There are only four instances of white zombies in Gatherer, and all of them are hybrid BW.
To be clear, controversial isn't a bad thing. It just means it's something that has a lot of varying opinions. Defining zombies as white seems worthy of the definition for now.
Mechanics look like mostly re-runs. New counters seem like extra work. Just turn the card upside-down for the doubletap ability??
It's not a double tap ability. Exerting a creature doesn't tap it or put it in a tap like state, it just stops it untapping. It's just usually going to be tapped in the process.
You could turn it upside down to represent it being exerted, there is nothing stopping people doing that, certainly not the inclusion of the marker from the punch card. Why would they provide the marker on the punch card? Because it's a very clear and uninhibited way of indicating the creature is exerted. Turning upside down means it's not clear whether the creature is tapped or not, which is important because exertion doesn't necessitate the creature is tapped and you might want to tap an opponent's exerted creature if it's not. Turning upside down also makes it harder for you to read your own card especially with regards to reading your own board state. You could use dice or coins or something instead but that will make it harder to tell which creatures have -1/-1 counters versus are exerted, so having unique markers for both you can use if useful.
Given these advantages, and the fact that the existence of the markers will indicate to newer players that they should consider marking their exerted creatures, I see only upside.
And what does this whole point have to do with the mechanics being 're-runs'?
use regular pennies/whatever for the bricks since they will likely be on noncreature artifacts?
Not everyone has coins or dice easily available, and even more so, there are multiple counter types, even if they go on different permanents, here so having a unique counter marker just makes it easier to tell. Also factor in the existence of the marker indicating to players to use markers as with exerted.
(I know the trend is always to complain, sure, but I can't imagine being excited for refined mechanics rather than new ones even if I did play this game religiously).
It's both very easy and somewhat pointless to say things are the same when you haven't ever played with them to see how much the differences actually amount to. And in general, novelty is not the most important thing to any game. Novelty can even be counter productive.
The novelty of these mechanics so far seems to be at a fairly standard level to me.
But White has been playing God and disturbing/raising the dead from Alpha through more recent Modern cards and even into Eldritch Moon. It's always been a thing they do.
Not one of those cards create a zombie. The idea of resurrection is to make the dead whole again, eg alive.
Zombies on the other hand are dead. Dead. Deadski. Come to think of, I recall that the origin of a zombie is that of a slave and a result the "black arts".
Mummy might have been a better fit. Primarily due to the Egyptian theme of the set. But also mummy has a slightly different flavor connotation than that of zombie. Without seeing the entire set, I can't say WotC missed the cue on this one but I'm sorely tempted. Mechanically, it's painfully obvious why they chose Zombie over Mummy.
Because zombies have historically been black
That's why it's controversial
I can't believe I actually had to type that out
I came here to comment on this issue.
A zombie is a walking desecration.
A zombie is:
1) Mockery of life,
2) made by powers that are playing god,
3) is not possible without disturbing the dead.
Perhaps they should have gone with a new creature type like the actual Mummy or perhaps I've gotten too old.
Creatures that can't even pass the Dark Banishing test are becoming zombies, what has the world come to...
I think the difference here is the point 2).
These zombies are not made by powers that are playing god. They are made by ACTUAL gods.
If we don't get proliferate in the second set of this block, I'll be very pissed/sad.
While proliferate is possible, it is not exactly likely. Proliferate was a mechanic they wanted to put into Kaladesh-block (or better said: they put it in and later removed it). There are still cards left that manipulate counters in a distinct fashion similar to proliferate. The block they wanted proliferate in has come and gone and we got similar cards, but not the real deal. You can hold onto a faint hope that proliferate was just pushed into a future release for some reason, but you have to agree that putting it into the set with energy and using cross block synergy with the -1/-1 counters in Amonkhet seems like the likely plan.
Since a reason for the change involves the developmental problem with planeswalkers (a card type that always uses counters) one also has to take into account that those developmental reasons will not simply go away. Planeswalkers will continue to be power houses and bringing back proliferate will risk pushing them over the edge.
I suggest not investing a lot of emotion into this specific mechanic. Though you can always get your hopes up for just any mechanic to interact with -1/-1 counters and maybe you will get that in form of a new keyword? It just seems more likely at this point.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
[quote from="Marek14 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/773260-mothership-info-dump-including-mechanic-info?comment=151"]These zombies are not made by powers that are playing god. They are made by ACTUAL gods. Well, there are white Gods and black Gods, so... there's that.
The first thing to note is what a Zombie is. Popular culture has used influenced this and twisted the term from its original meaning and Magic has put its own twist on that.
Zombie could mean anything of:
Human enslaved by black magic
biological weapon
sick biological being (the "infected by a virus/parasite/etc." type)
monster that looks dead
Depending on the source.
When it comes to Magic using any outside definition can only muddy the water on what you are talking about, but with precedent from Innistrad and co. taken into account I propose the following two-word definition what a Zombie is as a creature type:
A Zombie in this game is a dead body that by some means (magic, duh!) is still walking around. Whether it is a deceased fled from the underworld, a ghoul raised by a necromancer, or body parts stitiched together into a flesh golem - if it is dead flesh walking about it is a Zombie. (Note 1: individual body parts can be Zombies, but their movement will be "walking" in a metaphorical sense, maybe scrabbling, crawling etc.) (Note 2: Certain subtypes get their own creature type e. g. a corpse without a sufficient amount of flesh will be a Skeleton)
Now we have precedent for Zombi4es outside of black with Innistrad's skaabs in blue. So when we look at them we get the impression that the manner the Zombie is turned from "corpse" to "walking corpse" is what determines the color.
Magic that preserves the vileness of the corpse and turns it into a slave/mockery of life: black.
Necroengineering that takes the best parts to improve the corpse(s) by creating a new thing with corpses being little more than the raw material of choice: blue.
Possible explanation here:
Using a ritualistic process to return the dead body to a state resembling its living persona to continue its duty and life purpose: white.
This is going to be the most interesting to revisit once we see cards that actually change colors to become white rather than staying white. But in general a monowhite Zombie is nothing more controverse than a monoblue Zombie - at least it won't be in a year once everyone has gotten used to it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
These zombies are not made by powers that are playing god. They are made by ACTUAL gods.
Well, there are white Gods and black Gods, so... there's that.
The first thing to note is what a Zombie is. Popular culture has used influenced this and twisted the term from its original meaning and Magic has put its own twist on that.
Zombie could mean anything of:
Human enslaved by black magic
biological weapon
sick biological being (the "infected by a virus/parasite/etc." type)
monster that looks dead
Depending on the source.
When it comes to Magic using any outside definition can only muddy the water on what you are talking about, but with precedent from Innistrad and co. taken into account I propose the following two-word definition what a Zombie is as a creature type:
A Zombie in this game is a dead body that by some means (magic, duh!) is still walking around. Whether it is a deceased fled from the underworld, a ghoul raised by a necromancer, or body parts stitiched together into a flesh golem - if it is dead flesh walking about it is a Zombie. (Note 1: individual body parts can be Zombies, but their movement will be "walking" in a metaphorical sense, maybe scrabbling, crawling etc.) (Note 2: Certain subtypes get their own creature type e. g. a corpse without a sufficient amount of flesh will be a Skeleton)
Now we have precedent for Zombi4es outside of black with Innistrad's skaabs in blue. So when we look at them we get the impression that the manner the Zombie is turned from "corpse" to "walking corpse" is what determines the color.
Magic that preserves the vileness of the corpse and turns it into a slave/mockery of life: black.
Necroengineering that takes the best parts to improve the corpse(s) by creating a new thing with corpses being little more than the raw material of choice: blue.
Possible explanation here:
Using a ritualistic process to return the dead body to a state resembling its living persona to continue its duty and life purpose: white.
This is going to be the most interesting to revisit once we see cards that actually change colors to become white rather than staying white. But in general a monowhite Zombie is nothing more controverse than a monoblue Zombie - at least it won't be in a year once everyone has gotten used to it.
</blockquote>
The hardest color for zombies would be probably mono-green (because green would see it as subverting of natural order), but we see black-green Golgari Plant Zombies as basically combination of living and dead.
I could also imagine mono-red zombies, as basically vengeful dead who will NOT drop dead until their passion for revenge is fulfilled.
Oooh I called perforated punch cards last year, I think its a splendid way to eventually do away with fetchlands by having tokenlands
Print two lands to one token card, and perforate the middle, and you have tokens that can't be shuffled back into decks by mistake and don't need a shuffle
There is some part of me hoping that there will be a zombie card that also has embalm on it. I would love to be able to Necromancer's Stockpile a creature into the yard, getting a 2/2 token and be able to embalm another token into play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If it looks like a bug, sounds like a bug, and acts like a bug then it's probably working as intended.
Oooh I called perforated punch cards last year, I think its a splendid way to eventually do away with fetchlands by having tokenlands
Print two lands to one token card, and perforate the middle, and you have tokens that can't be shuffled back into decks by mistake and don't need a shuffle
I guess it works in draft but would be sucky for everyone else. I would rather have tokes I can sleeve and store with my decks than a bunch of pieces of paper that don't quite fit properly in my deck box, get mangled in a bag, or just be an all around nuisance.
Oooh I called perforated punch cards last year, I think its a splendid way to eventually do away with fetchlands by having tokenlands
Print two lands to one token card, and perforate the middle, and you have tokens that can't be shuffled back into decks by mistake and don't need a shuffle
I guess it works in draft but would be sucky for everyone else. I would rather have tokes I can sleeve and store with my decks than a bunch of pieces of paper that don't quite fit properly in my deck box, get mangled in a bag, or just be an all around nuisance.
Eh, but having tokens that can be sleeved to the same size was precisely the problem they had with token lands in testing- people would forget them and shuffle into their decks. Even if they don't go with half-size token lands immediately, I hope they explored it in testing because fetchlands drawing out games really is a big issue in play right now.
Oooh I called perforated punch cards last year, I think its a splendid way to eventually do away with fetchlands by having tokenlands
Print two lands to one token card, and perforate the middle, and you have tokens that can't be shuffled back into decks by mistake and don't need a shuffle
I guess it works in draft but would be sucky for everyone else. I would rather have tokes I can sleeve and store with my decks than a bunch of pieces of paper that don't quite fit properly in my deck box, get mangled in a bag, or just be an all around nuisance.
Eh, but having tokens that can be sleeved to the same size was precisely the problem they had with token lands in testing- people would forget them and shuffle into their decks. Even if they don't go with half-size token lands immediately, I hope they explored it in testing because fetchlands drawing out games really is a big issue in play right now.
I don't understand, why would people not just use different color sleeves?
Oooh I called perforated punch cards last year, I think its a splendid way to eventually do away with fetchlands by having tokenlands
Print two lands to one token card, and perforate the middle, and you have tokens that can't be shuffled back into decks by mistake and don't need a shuffle
I guess it works in draft but would be sucky for everyone else. I would rather have tokes I can sleeve and store with my decks than a bunch of pieces of paper that don't quite fit properly in my deck box, get mangled in a bag, or just be an all around nuisance.
Eh, but having tokens that can be sleeved to the same size was precisely the problem they had with token lands in testing- people would forget them and shuffle into their decks. Even if they don't go with half-size token lands immediately, I hope they explored it in testing because fetchlands drawing out games really is a big issue in play right now.
I don't understand, why would people not just use different color sleeves?
I can only imagine they're newish players who haven't acquired enough "random" sleeves, cheapskates who don't want to spend $3 or $4 for an off-color pack, or they didn't think of it.
Counting cards between matches should be second nature. I've lost count the number of times an errant card is found strictly from doing a count.
Honestly, a pack of 50 covers "random" off-color sleeves for dozens of situations. Something you're going to do with DFCs anyways if you care enough to sleeve them. Using mismatched sleeves all but guarantees you'll find the cards during count or shuffle. More importantly, if you know you have X token cards and speed is an issue for you, count the tokens.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Kinda hard to imagine actual bricks proliferating...
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
I came here to comment on this issue.
A zombie is a walking desecration.
A zombie is:
1) Mockery of life,
2) made by powers that are playing god,
3) is not possible without disturbing the dead.
Perhaps they should have gone with a new creature type like the actual Mummy or perhaps I've gotten too old.
Creatures that can't even pass the Dark Banishing test are becoming zombies, what has the world come to...
Cult of the Succubi Eating Kitten and Brotherhood of Hamsters - Zombie One/Hulking One - Brotherhood of Hamsters disapproves of Damage on the Stack amputation, the corruption of Mythics,
and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
glad I read the article.
Mechanics look like mostly re-runs. New counters seem like extra work. Just turn the card upside-down for the doubletap ability?? use regular pennies/whatever for the bricks since they will likely be on noncreature artifacts? (I know the trend is always to complain, sure, but I can't imagine being excited for refined mechanics rather than new ones even if I did play this game religiously).
The original statement was "Why is this controversial?" It's not the recursion/graveyard interaction that's controversial. It's making zombies purely white that's a deviation from historical norms. There are only four instances of white zombies in Gatherer, and all of them are hybrid BW.
To be clear, controversial isn't a bad thing. It just means it's something that has a lot of varying opinions. Defining zombies as white seems worthy of the definition for now.
It's not a double tap ability. Exerting a creature doesn't tap it or put it in a tap like state, it just stops it untapping. It's just usually going to be tapped in the process.
You could turn it upside down to represent it being exerted, there is nothing stopping people doing that, certainly not the inclusion of the marker from the punch card. Why would they provide the marker on the punch card? Because it's a very clear and uninhibited way of indicating the creature is exerted. Turning upside down means it's not clear whether the creature is tapped or not, which is important because exertion doesn't necessitate the creature is tapped and you might want to tap an opponent's exerted creature if it's not. Turning upside down also makes it harder for you to read your own card especially with regards to reading your own board state. You could use dice or coins or something instead but that will make it harder to tell which creatures have -1/-1 counters versus are exerted, so having unique markers for both you can use if useful.
Given these advantages, and the fact that the existence of the markers will indicate to newer players that they should consider marking their exerted creatures, I see only upside.
And what does this whole point have to do with the mechanics being 're-runs'?
Not everyone has coins or dice easily available, and even more so, there are multiple counter types, even if they go on different permanents, here so having a unique counter marker just makes it easier to tell. Also factor in the existence of the marker indicating to players to use markers as with exerted.
It's both very easy and somewhat pointless to say things are the same when you haven't ever played with them to see how much the differences actually amount to. And in general, novelty is not the most important thing to any game. Novelty can even be counter productive.
The novelty of these mechanics so far seems to be at a fairly standard level to me.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Not one of those cards create a zombie. The idea of resurrection is to make the dead whole again, eg alive.
Zombies on the other hand are dead. Dead. Deadski. Come to think of, I recall that the origin of a zombie is that of a slave and a result the "black arts".
Mummy might have been a better fit. Primarily due to the Egyptian theme of the set. But also mummy has a slightly different flavor connotation than that of zombie. Without seeing the entire set, I can't say WotC missed the cue on this one but I'm sorely tempted. Mechanically, it's painfully obvious why they chose Zombie over Mummy.
I think the difference here is the point 2).
These zombies are not made by powers that are playing god. They are made by ACTUAL gods.
While proliferate is possible, it is not exactly likely. Proliferate was a mechanic they wanted to put into Kaladesh-block (or better said: they put it in and later removed it). There are still cards left that manipulate counters in a distinct fashion similar to proliferate. The block they wanted proliferate in has come and gone and we got similar cards, but not the real deal. You can hold onto a faint hope that proliferate was just pushed into a future release for some reason, but you have to agree that putting it into the set with energy and using cross block synergy with the -1/-1 counters in Amonkhet seems like the likely plan.
Since a reason for the change involves the developmental problem with planeswalkers (a card type that always uses counters) one also has to take into account that those developmental reasons will not simply go away. Planeswalkers will continue to be power houses and bringing back proliferate will risk pushing them over the edge.
I suggest not investing a lot of emotion into this specific mechanic. Though you can always get your hopes up for just any mechanic to interact with -1/-1 counters and maybe you will get that in form of a new keyword? It just seems more likely at this point.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
The first thing to note is what a Zombie is. Popular culture has used influenced this and twisted the term from its original meaning and Magic has put its own twist on that.
Zombie could mean anything of:
When it comes to Magic using any outside definition can only muddy the water on what you are talking about, but with precedent from Innistrad and co. taken into account I propose the following two-word definition what a Zombie is as a creature type:
Now we have precedent for Zombi4es outside of black with Innistrad's skaabs in blue. So when we look at them we get the impression that the manner the Zombie is turned from "corpse" to "walking corpse" is what determines the color.
Magic that preserves the vileness of the corpse and turns it into a slave/mockery of life: black.
Necroengineering that takes the best parts to improve the corpse(s) by creating a new thing with corpses being little more than the raw material of choice: blue.
Possible explanation here:
Using a ritualistic process to return the dead body to a state resembling its living persona to continue its duty and life purpose: white.
This is going to be the most interesting to revisit once we see cards that actually change colors to become white rather than staying white. But in general a monowhite Zombie is nothing more controverse than a monoblue Zombie - at least it won't be in a year once everyone has gotten used to it.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
The hardest color for zombies would be probably mono-green (because green would see it as subverting of natural order), but we see black-green Golgari Plant Zombies as basically combination of living and dead.
I could also imagine mono-red zombies, as basically vengeful dead who will NOT drop dead until their passion for revenge is fulfilled.
There's no mechanic about it in there. (But on the other hand there's probably kept a couple more mechanics in the dock.)
That's a thought I had as well. Basically a corporal Raging Poltergeist.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
Print two lands to one token card, and perforate the middle, and you have tokens that can't be shuffled back into decks by mistake and don't need a shuffle
I guess it works in draft but would be sucky for everyone else. I would rather have tokes I can sleeve and store with my decks than a bunch of pieces of paper that don't quite fit properly in my deck box, get mangled in a bag, or just be an all around nuisance.
Eh, but having tokens that can be sleeved to the same size was precisely the problem they had with token lands in testing- people would forget them and shuffle into their decks. Even if they don't go with half-size token lands immediately, I hope they explored it in testing because fetchlands drawing out games really is a big issue in play right now.
I don't understand, why would people not just use different color sleeves?
Maro saids from last week they diden't show all the mechanics.
So when do they start showing stuff.
In about an hour
11AM EST or so, which is in an hour. It's the time they update the articles on Wizards' website.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
I can only imagine they're newish players who haven't acquired enough "random" sleeves, cheapskates who don't want to spend $3 or $4 for an off-color pack, or they didn't think of it.
Counting cards between matches should be second nature. I've lost count the number of times an errant card is found strictly from doing a count.
Honestly, a pack of 50 covers "random" off-color sleeves for dozens of situations. Something you're going to do with DFCs anyways if you care enough to sleeve them. Using mismatched sleeves all but guarantees you'll find the cards during count or shuffle. More importantly, if you know you have X token cards and speed is an issue for you, count the tokens.