Even though I don´t play supplemental products, I still think it´s a horrible idea. Magic The Gathering is a good name and shows that it´s a game that gathers people. Just "Magic" is way too bland.
They won't remove "The Gathering" completely. They can't because they need to keep it on the backing of the cards.
I, for one, would love to see them update the card back. You could still use cards with older backs in formats that would have older and newer cards mixed together, but it could be enforced that sufficiently dense sleeves are used. It's already expected with double faced cards, for instance.
I know this would sound extreme to many people, but so did double-faced cards.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
They won't remove "The Gathering" completely. They can't because they need to keep it on the backing of the cards.
I, for one, would love to see them update the card back. You could still use cards with older backs in formats that would have older and newer cards mixed together, but it could be enforced that sufficiently dense sleeves are used. It's already expected with double faced cards, for instance.
I know this would sound extreme to many people, but so did double-faced cards.
They won't remove "The Gathering" completely. They can't because they need to keep it on the backing of the cards.
I, for one, would love to see them update the card back. You could still use cards with older backs in formats that would have older and newer cards mixed together, but it could be enforced that sufficiently dense sleeves are used. It's already expected with double faced cards, for instance.
I know this would sound extreme to many people, but so did double-faced cards.
For what reason?
Several.
For one, the logo color scheme doesn't match that of the logo used in other branding.'Magic The Gathering' is blue on the card back, but orange/yellow on most packaging, on the main site, and gatherer.
Then there's the misleading, confusing and totally unnecessary 'Deckmaster' label, which refers to an abandoned concept.
On top of that, due to a printing error 'Deckmaster' also has a pen mark through part of the word. How did that get there? Well however it did, every card from Black Lotus to Ornithopter is printed with this error.
Those are pretty good reasons, and they compound another, highly subjective but still important reason.
The card back is dated, and can be considered pretty ugly or inelegant when compared to many contemporary card games.
That opinion might scorn older players, but it has an affect on the growth and interest in the game by newer players. If you've ever seen Magic card backs in a binder next to cards from another game, the Magic cards look muddy, tacky, dirty, and stale. That awful cloud effect on the brown oval, the red dots that are supposed to suggest binding bolts to a hard cover tome, the sharpness of the lines bordering them... there's a lot to criticize about the look. And many people do.
It's not that it looks old. It's that it looks dated. A little too liberal with effects they thought looked cool at the time. They contrast starkly with the slicker modern templates for card fronts we have today.
Heck. I'm in the camp that would love to see more of a pre-8th edition border design influence on modern front templates too. Certain oldschool aesthetic choices are widely liked, so it's not just hating on the old here.
The textures in the post-8th colored borders have busy flecks of white everywhere in them. Pre-8th borders were much fuller in color, and had interesting textures.
The name and type lines were also part of the general border, and rich with color too. Post-8th typelines pop out, but they have been criticized as sterile and 'web browser-y' over ancient and magical. I can see it.
There's plenty of people who appreciate the Planar Chaos and Future Sight templates as an attempt at something in-between. Even if those themselves overdo certain features.
Even taking away appeal to newer players, there's many of us who would like to feel more reverence for the cards they collect.
We'd like to, but can't help feeling hindered by the templating and card backs not matching the beauty of the cards' art, design and flavor text.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
They won't remove "The Gathering" completely. They can't because they need to keep it on the backing of the cards.
I, for one, would love to see them update the card back. You could still use cards with older backs in formats that would have older and newer cards mixed together, but it could be enforced that sufficiently dense sleeves are used. It's already expected with double faced cards, for instance.
I know this would sound extreme to many people, but so did double-faced cards.
For what reason?
Several.
For one, the logo color scheme doesn't match that of the logo used in other branding.'Magic The Gathering' is blue on the card back, but orange/yellow on most packaging, on the main site, and gatherer.
Then there's the misleading, confusing and totally unnecessary 'Deckmaster' label, which refers to an abandoned concept.
On top of that, due to a printing error 'Deckmaster' also has a pen mark through part of the word. How did that get there? Well however it did, every card from Black Lotus to Ornithopter is printed with this error.
Those are pretty good reasons, and they compound another, highly subjective but still important reason.
The card back is dated, and can be considered pretty ugly or inelegant when compared to many contemporary card games.
That opinion might scorn older players, but it has an affect on the growth and interest in the game by newer players. If you've ever seen Magic card backs in a binder next to cards from another game, the Magic cards look muddy, tacky, dirty, and stale. That awful cloud effect on the brown oval, the red dots that are supposed to suggest binding bolts to a hard cover tome, the sharpness of the lines bordering them... there's a lot to criticize about the look. And many people do.
It's not that it looks old. It's that it looks dated. A little too liberal with effects they thought looked cool at the time. They contrast starkly with the slicker modern templates for card fronts we have today.
Heck. I'm in the camp that would love to see more of a pre-8th edition border design influence on modern front templates too. Certain oldschool aesthetic choices are widely liked, so it's not just hating on the old here.
The textures in the post-8th colored borders have busy flecks of white everywhere in them. Pre-8th borders were much fuller in color, and had interesting textures.
The name and type lines were also part of the general border, and rich with color too. Post-8th typelines pop out, but they have been criticized as sterile and 'web browser-y' over ancient and magical. I can see it.
There's plenty of people who appreciate the Planar Chaos and Future Sight templates as an attempt at something in-between. Even if those themselves overdo certain features.
Even taking away appeal to newer players, there's many of us who would like to feel more reverence for the cards they collect.
We'd like to, but can't help feeling hindered by the templating and card backs not matching the beauty of the cards' art, design and flavor text.
I cannot help but disagree with just about everything you wrote.
I love the colour scheme, the reference to a tome, even the awkward pen mark is a quirky silly easter egg. i always thought it was some cool marbling design, like the strata lines you see on old stones, until i know how it came about it. That connection to its history is both hilarious and endearing to me. All that would be gone if the cardback were changed. Even why it is called Magic : the gathering is an interesting conversation point for me as a new player.
In short everything you seem to hate i loved. It only goes to show subjective the matter is.
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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You'd be amazed by some players. Among some of the players I've introduced to the game, I had one player of note with respect to this.
I'd introduced them to the game during Return to Ravnica block. They have played ever since, but are very casual. Yet this person, upon learning of the new Scry Mulligain rule, rejected the idea quite vocally and said he would refuse to play with the rule...
...until the rest of his playgroup did so despite him and he came around and appreciated how much the scry could help. When mana screwed, this helped many newer players feel much less, well, screwed.
I cannot help but disagree with just about everything you wrote.
I love the colour scheme, the reference to a tome, even the awkward pen mark is a quirky silly easter egg. i always thought it was some cool marbling design, like the strata lines you see on old stones, until i know how it came about it. That connection to its history is both hilarious and endearing to me. All that would be gone if the cardback were changed. Even why it is called Magic : the gathering is an interesting conversation point for me as a new player.
In short everything you seem to hate i loved. It only goes to show subjective the matter is.
I can appreciate your sentiments, really. For instance I kinda like the blue in the original logo.
But the fact it's subjective is less about your opinion or mine and more about how a majority of potential newer players (customers) might feel.
Wizards has internal research data from surveys and focus groups, and place concern on barrier to entry.
Is an easter egg worth the game being less approachable?
This is a TERRIBLE idea. Non-sleeved kitchen table magic is the only real way to play magic and would become 100% impossible if the backs were changed.
There's a reason double-faced cards come with placeholders...
Most players I have met, including casual groups, sleeve their decks.
The ones who don't care so little they will run double-faced cards shuffled in alongside the rest of their unsleeved deck. I see it all the time.
That's good enough for them. I have never once seen sleeveless players bother with the placeceholders. They're not likely to care about card backs not matching.
Regardless, such a discrepancy would smooth out over time. The later a new player joins into the game after a card back change the less they'll even be aware of it.
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
While MtG was originally intended to have different card backs, I think this was a bullet dodged by the early designs and one that should be endeared to continue as is. The argument to change the card back are just well... not justifiable. The pen mark? Coloring? Looking "dated"?
Changing the card back would be the ultimate slap in the face to collectors and players alike. It basically amounts to a "reboot" of the entire game. WotC changed a lot of things about the game, but changing the backs would, seems to me, that WotC has lost confidence in their product but want to try and continue milking the cash cow. It would be the ultimate excuse to once and for all forever drop every format except Standard and never ever look back again.
All emotions aside... talking about this logically.
First off...
For their specific regions, have any of the CCGs changed their card backs during the life of the CCG? Even Nintendo kept the same card back on their U.S. Pokemon cards after WotC no longer printed them. I recall LotR (?) changed their backs but the new version was incompatible with the old anyways. Anyone else? Keep in mind, I'm not asking about different regions with their different backs.
Secondly... what studies and surveys? I have never heard people say the card backs were a factor negatively influencing the purchase of MtG. People talk about it of course, but I have never heard a potential player say, "these card backs are awful, I'm not buying the game." Or "these backs are so annoying, I'm quitting the game."
When I first got into Magic 20 friggin years ago I didn't understand card backs or the name of the damn game for that matter. This is how I ended up buying 100 bucks worth of Vampyre the Masquerade: Jyhad at Babbages one day.
at 25 years its as much a part of the brand as anything. people recognize that card back, even people who don't play. wotc might not like it, and some players might not like it, but changing it now does more harm than good.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
For their specific regions, have any of the CCGs changed their card backs during the life of the CCG? Even Nintendo kept the same card back on their U.S. Pokemon cards after WotC no longer printed them. I recall LotR (?) changed their backs but the new version was incompatible with the old anyways. Anyone else? Keep in mind, I'm not asking about different regions with their different backs.
Mitos y Leyendas changed the card back and the company went down three years later after 13 years of steady growth.
Didn't they already do this for mm2? I think they might just call it 'Magic' in the future at some point anyway, attention span's too short for kids these days.
dyllbert asked: Maybe not really your department, but is there a reason MM3 only says "Magic" instead of "Magic the Gathering" on all the packaging?
MaRo: Something we’re experimenting with on supplemental products.
unfortunately, trying out different printings and foilings in those products seems to be an experiment as well. MM 3 cards are one ugly, washed out mess.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
I don't think the back needs to be changed, but when you really look at it, then yeah, it does smack of 1990-era graphic design, albeit very sensibly made.
It is possible to update the back with modern graphic design without changing the layout/colors so much that you can't recognize it. The biggest difference would just be 'Magic' in gold, and 'Deckmaster' missing.
In any case, I switched to sleeves about a year after starting Magic because of the grime that builds up on cards. I'd welcome any new card treatment that makes the cards more resilient to damage.
If they are serious about this, they will probably get our feedback ahead of time before printing something, and/or test it by printing some small supplemental product.
The pen mark was made by one of the artists (I think Jesper Myrfors since he was the early art director) too late in the process to do anything about it.
If I recall correctly they were aware of it but couldn't do anything since printing was imminent.
(Information from Drive to Work, although I don't remember which episode.)
I don't care one way or the other about the card back.
They won't remove "The Gathering" completely. They can't because they need to keep it on the backing of the cards.
Another reason WotC really can't drop "The Gathering" is trademarks. "Magic" as a word is too generic and not enforceable as a trademark these days. If Hasbro tries to trademark "Magic," I'm sure other companies will attempt to challenge in court. I'm not sure what WotC gains by dropping the sub-header.
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I, for one, would love to see them update the card back. You could still use cards with older backs in formats that would have older and newer cards mixed together, but it could be enforced that sufficiently dense sleeves are used. It's already expected with double faced cards, for instance.
I know this would sound extreme to many people, but so did double-faced cards.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
For what reason?
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Several.
For one, the logo color scheme doesn't match that of the logo used in other branding.'Magic The Gathering' is blue on the card back, but orange/yellow on most packaging, on the main site, and gatherer.
Then there's the misleading, confusing and totally unnecessary 'Deckmaster' label, which refers to an abandoned concept.
On top of that, due to a printing error 'Deckmaster' also has a pen mark through part of the word. How did that get there? Well however it did, every card from Black Lotus to Ornithopter is printed with this error.
Those are pretty good reasons, and they compound another, highly subjective but still important reason.
The card back is dated, and can be considered pretty ugly or inelegant when compared to many contemporary card games.
That opinion might scorn older players, but it has an affect on the growth and interest in the game by newer players. If you've ever seen Magic card backs in a binder next to cards from another game, the Magic cards look muddy, tacky, dirty, and stale. That awful cloud effect on the brown oval, the red dots that are supposed to suggest binding bolts to a hard cover tome, the sharpness of the lines bordering them... there's a lot to criticize about the look. And many people do.
It's not that it looks old. It's that it looks dated. A little too liberal with effects they thought looked cool at the time. They contrast starkly with the slicker modern templates for card fronts we have today.
Heck. I'm in the camp that would love to see more of a pre-8th edition border design influence on modern front templates too. Certain oldschool aesthetic choices are widely liked, so it's not just hating on the old here.
The textures in the post-8th colored borders have busy flecks of white everywhere in them. Pre-8th borders were much fuller in color, and had interesting textures.
The name and type lines were also part of the general border, and rich with color too. Post-8th typelines pop out, but they have been criticized as sterile and 'web browser-y' over ancient and magical. I can see it.
There's plenty of people who appreciate the Planar Chaos and Future Sight templates as an attempt at something in-between. Even if those themselves overdo certain features.
Even taking away appeal to newer players, there's many of us who would like to feel more reverence for the cards they collect.
We'd like to, but can't help feeling hindered by the templating and card backs not matching the beauty of the cards' art, design and flavor text.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
I cannot help but disagree with just about everything you wrote.
I love the colour scheme, the reference to a tome, even the awkward pen mark is a quirky silly easter egg. i always thought it was some cool marbling design, like the strata lines you see on old stones, until i know how it came about it. That connection to its history is both hilarious and endearing to me. All that would be gone if the cardback were changed. Even why it is called Magic : the gathering is an interesting conversation point for me as a new player.
In short everything you seem to hate i loved. It only goes to show subjective the matter is.
Haha i actually found that funny
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Magic the Gathering Deckmaster
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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You'd be amazed by some players. Among some of the players I've introduced to the game, I had one player of note with respect to this.
I'd introduced them to the game during Return to Ravnica block. They have played ever since, but are very casual. Yet this person, upon learning of the new Scry Mulligain rule, rejected the idea quite vocally and said he would refuse to play with the rule...
...until the rest of his playgroup did so despite him and he came around and appreciated how much the scry could help. When mana screwed, this helped many newer players feel much less, well, screwed.
Magic is plagued by vocal minorities.
I can appreciate your sentiments, really. For instance I kinda like the blue in the original logo.
But the fact it's subjective is less about your opinion or mine and more about how a majority of potential newer players (customers) might feel.
Wizards has internal research data from surveys and focus groups, and place concern on barrier to entry.
Is an easter egg worth the game being less approachable?
Most players I have met, including casual groups, sleeve their decks.
The ones who don't care so little they will run double-faced cards shuffled in alongside the rest of their unsleeved deck. I see it all the time.
That's good enough for them. I have never once seen sleeveless players bother with the placeceholders. They're not likely to care about card backs not matching.
Regardless, such a discrepancy would smooth out over time. The later a new player joins into the game after a card back change the less they'll even be aware of it.
"OH GOD MY BRAIN IS EXPLOADING AT HOW BAD THE ART IS ON MY OWN CARD"
-A friend's first impression of Ancestral Recall
10/10, I tapped.
That would be kinda cool.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
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Changing the card back would be the ultimate slap in the face to collectors and players alike. It basically amounts to a "reboot" of the entire game. WotC changed a lot of things about the game, but changing the backs would, seems to me, that WotC has lost confidence in their product but want to try and continue milking the cash cow. It would be the ultimate excuse to once and for all forever drop every format except Standard and never ever look back again.
All emotions aside... talking about this logically.
First off...
For their specific regions, have any of the CCGs changed their card backs during the life of the CCG? Even Nintendo kept the same card back on their U.S. Pokemon cards after WotC no longer printed them. I recall LotR (?) changed their backs but the new version was incompatible with the old anyways. Anyone else? Keep in mind, I'm not asking about different regions with their different backs.
Secondly... what studies and surveys? I have never heard people say the card backs were a factor negatively influencing the purchase of MtG. People talk about it of course, but I have never heard a potential player say, "these card backs are awful, I'm not buying the game." Or "these backs are so annoying, I'm quitting the game."
Heh why not right it would indeed be cool, since we are already toying witb the idea of changing the cardback
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Oooh Dicey:
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at 25 years its as much a part of the brand as anything. people recognize that card back, even people who don't play. wotc might not like it, and some players might not like it, but changing it now does more harm than good.
They really should've waited until the next Conspiracy set to try this.
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Change isn't always a good thing, especially when it's done arbitrarily to something no one has any qualms about.
Mitos y Leyendas changed the card back and the company went down three years later after 13 years of steady growth.
Apparently this was used also on MM15, but I do not remember anybody noticed. Eternal Masters had it again in full.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
unfortunately, trying out different printings and foilings in those products seems to be an experiment as well. MM 3 cards are one ugly, washed out mess.
It is possible to update the back with modern graphic design without changing the layout/colors so much that you can't recognize it. The biggest difference would just be 'Magic' in gold, and 'Deckmaster' missing.
In any case, I switched to sleeves about a year after starting Magic because of the grime that builds up on cards. I'd welcome any new card treatment that makes the cards more resilient to damage.
If they are serious about this, they will probably get our feedback ahead of time before printing something, and/or test it by printing some small supplemental product.
If I recall correctly they were aware of it but couldn't do anything since printing was imminent.
(Information from Drive to Work, although I don't remember which episode.)
I don't care one way or the other about the card back.
Another reason WotC really can't drop "The Gathering" is trademarks. "Magic" as a word is too generic and not enforceable as a trademark these days. If Hasbro tries to trademark "Magic," I'm sure other companies will attempt to challenge in court. I'm not sure what WotC gains by dropping the sub-header.