I don't think it's a coincidence that standard started going downhill the moment they decided that one-drop mana creatures made the format "too fast". Hopefully things have gotten bad enough that they are forced to realize their mistakes and they can start to undo all the "environment-crafting" they've done.
To be clear... you think this standard would be better if it was T2 Saheeli into T3 Felidar, rather than T3 and T4?
That's two in a row that paradox engine dodged the ban bullet in edh.
You actually have to craft a deck to abuse Paradox engine, and most ways you can beat it easily enough. K Grip, counterspell, a number of exile or tuck effects, gaddock teeg, rule of law, etc.... exist. And because these cards exist Paradox Engine isn't too powerful. Hell, even things like Linvalla, null rod, stony silence, etc... works. Trinisphere wrecks eggs style decks. And that's just to name a few ways to deal with the engine. Don't get me wrong, it's powerful. But it's not broken.
I don't think it's a coincidence that standard started going downhill the moment they decided that one-drop mana creatures made the format "too fast". Hopefully things have gotten bad enough that they are forced to realize their mistakes and they can start to undo all the "environment-crafting" they've done.
To be clear... you think this standard would be better if it was T2 Saheeli into T3 Felidar, rather than T3 and T4?
It's because WotC has been catering to the people who cry about losing to ghost quarter, tec edge, counterspell, null rod, doom blade, hexproof, wrath of god, blood moon, beast within, sinkhole, wasteland, rest in peace, suppression field, damping matrix, pro color, etc... That standard is in the biggest *****ake boat of fried rocky mountain oysters the history of Magic is seeing. It's worse than Caw Blade vs Valakut, it's rivaling Mirrodin and Urza blocks.
Because people keep crying over spilled milk about how unfair the above cards are WotC is catering to them and not the people who's been playing since Alpha who knows that there needs to be efficient answers to problem cards in the format. Shadowmage Infiltrator was a great card but it never shined because of flametongue kavu. If you look in the past post ice age and Necro Summer, you will see there's been answers to everything and people could sideboard answers for everything. Hell, it wasn't that long ago when enchantment based decks died to Back to Nature and Innistraad had Rest in Peace in the same rotation as the graveyard matters decks and stony silence in the same rotation as artifacts matter, etc...
What happened?
Cry babies who cried, pissed, and moaned about how their lives were so unfair and WotC caters to them. And here we are, today, reaping what the babies have sown.
I don't think it's a coincidence that standard started going downhill the moment they decided that one-drop mana creatures made the format "too fast". Hopefully things have gotten bad enough that they are forced to realize their mistakes and they can start to undo all the "environment-crafting" they've done.
To be clear... you think this standard would be better if it was T2 Saheeli into T3 Felidar, rather than T3 and T4?
No I don't mean that it's the lack Elvish Mystics that are the problem, it's the philosophy behind getting rid of them. They had a specific "idea" in mind of how they wanted standard to play and started removing basic utility like cheap removal, burn, and mana creatures. The result is a clunky format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If the Vikings were around today, they would probably be amazed at how much glow-in-the-dark stuff we have, and how we take it for granted.
I don't see how 1-drop mana creatures are the problem. The strength of threats relative to answers is the problem. That's pretty much independent of whether Elvish Mystic is in the format.
Also what's with people saying we need things like Blood Moon or Wasteland in the format? What, do you want aggro to get even better?
No I don't mean that it's the lack Elvish Mystics that are the problem, it's the philosophy behind getting rid of them. They had a specific "idea" in mind of how they wanted standard to play and started removing basic utility like cheap removal, burn, and mana creatures. The result is a clunky format.
I think this is spot on. When you've developers and the trumpet (that is MaRo) saying this is too good for standard, that is too powerful for standard, you start to lock yourself out of possibilities. You keep cornering yourself into crammed narratives and rules/standards, and what results is a boxed-in group of robots (and not designers/developers)
Every thing becomes systematic, like forcing yourself to do cycles, doing multicolor uncommons, pushing face characters into the PT scene, making removal less good to make said character cards shine. Things start to get predictable, solvable. The resulting two-deck format happens. Not to mention a domino effect on sales, turnouts, etc...
And yet, I still think 1 mana dorks are ok. You don't have to do them every block. Alternate them. But removing them totally (the past years of standard) is just plain wrong IMO. The same with whatever they said was too good (not broken).
They can't please everyone, if they banned something, people would complain; if they don't ban anything, people complain. It's lose/lose fore them, and realistically it doesn't matter which route they take, people still play standard, so it's kinda win/win for them at this point.
realistically it doesn't matter which route they take, people still play standard
I'm not sure this is actually true anymore. Everything that WotC has done over the last ~6 months points loudly to standard attendance floundering.
Yeah, FNM promos are garbage and the current blocks are very unfun and full of cards that's breaking standard to pieces.
Yet new sets and gimmicks like masterpieces seem to be moving pack sales. I'm not really a standard player and, for the most part, I don't generally care what happens in standard (EDH players get hype) but from an objective stance, I see WotC always printing too many good cards into standard rotation. Instead of printing answers to said 'good cards', they print better cards more often than not. I think if they wanted to solve most of the problems before bannings are in order, they should develop some situational or functionally reprint options/answers.
Banning Emrakul 2 could've had some eldrazi counter in dev or something and Smuggler's copter could've had a faster Shatter effect specified to just vehicles (Like Daring Demolition that was BB less to cast and as an instant, so it'd be playable). I don't know, I think bannings and restrictions should be the absolute last thing wizards should do and they shouldn't get to this level in standard with the option to make passable answers that aren't Force of Will caliber but situationally good in a set. (Reprinted Nature's Claim would have sufficed)
Banning Emrakul 2 could've had some eldrazi counter in dev or something and Smuggler's copter could've had a faster Shatter effect specified to just vehicles (Like Daring Demolition that was BB less to cast and as an instant, so it'd be playable). I don't know, I think bannings and restrictions should be the absolute last thing wizards should do and they shouldn't get to this level in standard with the option to make passable answers that aren't Force of Will caliber but situationally good in a set. (Reprinted Nature's Claim would have sufficed)
The problem with this is that sets are locked in place months ahead of release, so it's going to be too late much of the time. Bannings are more flexible in the time slot, especially with the updated extra ban date. They do try to preemptively print some 'safety valve' cards that function like what you are described, but because they are preemptive, it's not clear what will actually need a safety valve.
Safety valves also come in future sets, giving a little more room to see impressions, but they also aren't guarantees against problem because of their selectiveness- you don't print safety valves for everything.
I think this is spot on. When you've developers and the trumpet (that is MaRo) saying this is too good for standard, that is too powerful for standard, you start to lock yourself out of possibilities. You keep cornering yourself into crammed narratives and rules/standards, and what results is a boxed-in group of robots (and not designers/developers)
You are aware that Mark Rosewater is a designer and defers to developers regarding what is "too good for standard". As someone who misses the point so completely you do not instill confidence regarding your judgment of what is "spot on".
The most MaRo inputs into this discussion is that he probably would push towards the good removal in the correct colors. He is not the one keeping e. g. Go for the Throat back. Sometimes he passes on an opinion he knows the developers have formed on social media, but that's different from making the call. In fact the responsible department has stepped up and stated their intent to change things in the future, so I am bewildered how such a mistake still sticks around.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Oh, sorry, I wasn't aware you were insulting a public person and tried to read the sentence in a less spiteful manner. Will try to keep your disposition in mind in the future.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
And on that note, how about we stop attacking people and instead focus on the actual banlist?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
To be clear... you think this standard would be better if it was T2 Saheeli into T3 Felidar, rather than T3 and T4?
You actually have to craft a deck to abuse Paradox engine, and most ways you can beat it easily enough. K Grip, counterspell, a number of exile or tuck effects, gaddock teeg, rule of law, etc.... exist. And because these cards exist Paradox Engine isn't too powerful. Hell, even things like Linvalla, null rod, stony silence, etc... works. Trinisphere wrecks eggs style decks. And that's just to name a few ways to deal with the engine. Don't get me wrong, it's powerful. But it's not broken.
It's because WotC has been catering to the people who cry about losing to ghost quarter, tec edge, counterspell, null rod, doom blade, hexproof, wrath of god, blood moon, beast within, sinkhole, wasteland, rest in peace, suppression field, damping matrix, pro color, etc... That standard is in the biggest *****ake boat of fried rocky mountain oysters the history of Magic is seeing. It's worse than Caw Blade vs Valakut, it's rivaling Mirrodin and Urza blocks.
Because people keep crying over spilled milk about how unfair the above cards are WotC is catering to them and not the people who's been playing since Alpha who knows that there needs to be efficient answers to problem cards in the format. Shadowmage Infiltrator was a great card but it never shined because of flametongue kavu. If you look in the past post ice age and Necro Summer, you will see there's been answers to everything and people could sideboard answers for everything. Hell, it wasn't that long ago when enchantment based decks died to Back to Nature and Innistraad had Rest in Peace in the same rotation as the graveyard matters decks and stony silence in the same rotation as artifacts matter, etc...
What happened?
Cry babies who cried, pissed, and moaned about how their lives were so unfair and WotC caters to them. And here we are, today, reaping what the babies have sown.
No I don't mean that it's the lack Elvish Mystics that are the problem, it's the philosophy behind getting rid of them. They had a specific "idea" in mind of how they wanted standard to play and started removing basic utility like cheap removal, burn, and mana creatures. The result is a clunky format.
Also what's with people saying we need things like Blood Moon or Wasteland in the format? What, do you want aggro to get even better?
Every thing becomes systematic, like forcing yourself to do cycles, doing multicolor uncommons, pushing face characters into the PT scene, making removal less good to make said character cards shine. Things start to get predictable, solvable. The resulting two-deck format happens. Not to mention a domino effect on sales, turnouts, etc...
And yet, I still think 1 mana dorks are ok. You don't have to do them every block. Alternate them. But removing them totally (the past years of standard) is just plain wrong IMO. The same with whatever they said was too good (not broken).
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
I'm not sure this is actually true anymore. Everything that WotC has done over the last ~6 months points loudly to standard attendance floundering.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Yeah, FNM promos are garbage and the current blocks are very unfun and full of cards that's breaking standard to pieces.
Banning Emrakul 2 could've had some eldrazi counter in dev or something and Smuggler's copter could've had a faster Shatter effect specified to just vehicles (Like Daring Demolition that was BB less to cast and as an instant, so it'd be playable). I don't know, I think bannings and restrictions should be the absolute last thing wizards should do and they shouldn't get to this level in standard with the option to make passable answers that aren't Force of Will caliber but situationally good in a set. (Reprinted Nature's Claim would have sufficed)
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
The problem with this is that sets are locked in place months ahead of release, so it's going to be too late much of the time. Bannings are more flexible in the time slot, especially with the updated extra ban date. They do try to preemptively print some 'safety valve' cards that function like what you are described, but because they are preemptive, it's not clear what will actually need a safety valve.
Safety valves also come in future sets, giving a little more room to see impressions, but they also aren't guarantees against problem because of their selectiveness- you don't print safety valves for everything.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
You are aware that Mark Rosewater is a designer and defers to developers regarding what is "too good for standard". As someone who misses the point so completely you do not instill confidence regarding your judgment of what is "spot on".
The most MaRo inputs into this discussion is that he probably would push towards the good removal in the correct colors. He is not the one keeping e. g. Go for the Throat back. Sometimes he passes on an opinion he knows the developers have formed on social media, but that's different from making the call. In fact the responsible department has stepped up and stated their intent to change things in the future, so I am bewildered how such a mistake still sticks around.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO
So I'm not sure who is the one missing the point.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
Factions: Sleeping
Remnants: Valheim
Legendary Journey: Heroes & Planeswalkers
Saga: Shards of Rabiah
Legends: The Elder Dragons
Read up on Red Flags & NWO