Irony= complaining that some characters (the gatewatch) have 'plot armor' because they managed to defeat characters that were the epitome of 'plot armor' (eldrazi titans)...so what WotC has ACTUALLY done, is undeniably prove that 'plot armor' doesn't exist, as even their poster children for unkillable were killed; which makes everyone potentially expendable.......also, is 'plot armor' the hot phrase of the thread or what.
Hold up. For one thing, getting rid of a couple of "plot armored" characters by creating several more really isn't "disproving plot armor" at all. In fact, the Gatewatch are much more prominently featured (way too much, imo) than the Eldrazi titans ever were, so it's much more of an issue now than ever, hence the many (quite valid) complaints.
And ancient, extremely powerful, incomprehensible, Lovecraftian elder gods actually SHOULD have plot armor, and that's how the titans were introduced to us. Neowalkers, who are "no more powerful than regular mages," clearly shouldn't be invincible. And yet, they are, and it's a problem. That is why desperately need a death or at the very least a real defeat for the Gatewatch.
Well seeing as how plot armor doesn't exist, creating several more makes no sense. Just because you, and several other people don't like that the Gatewatch haven't lost yet, doesn't mean they have plot armor.
No, our personal dislike of the Gatewatch doesn’t give them plot armor. But the Gatewatch repeatedly going through experiences without dying or even suffering real, long-term effects when they clearly should be affected? Yeah, that gives them plot armor. Let’s list them off, shall we?
Gideon gets close enough to Ulamog that he can be hit by Ulamog’s tentacles, even though we know that just being NEAR Ulamog is enough to annihilate a person (Titan’s Presence). Gideon not only survives Ulamog’s presence when he clearly shouldn’t, but he even survives being repeatedly hit by a goddamn Eldrazi titan without being destroyed by its physical touch. He doesn’t even take knockback. He is able to hold back Ulamog just by standing there. Makes perfect sense.
Ob Nixilis goes clearly out of character to torture Nissa, Gideon, and Jace rather than just kill them, which he was perfectly able to do. Then, after being TORTURED, Nissa, Gideon, and Jace appear to be completely unaffected and quickly go back to fighting Eldrazi as if nothing happened. Hell, Nissa is even able to channel all of Zendikar’s mana shortly after. So wtf did Ob Nixilis do to them? Tickling them?
The Gatewatch get close enough to the Eldrazi that they can bind them to the plane and blast them with fire. The problem is, being close to Ulamog should kill them and being close to Kozilek should warp their mind like it did to Tazri. It doesn’t. Even when they pull the titans all the way into Zendikar to reveal their ‘true forms’ it brings them no harm.
Nissa was able to channel all of Zendikar’s mana through her with ease. What the hell happened to mana burn? She was also able to give all of her own mana to Chandra, which she was never shown to be capable of before. And after Nissa and Chandra use a bunch of ridiculous magic so that both can use all of Zendikar’s mana, they just walk it off. Chandra is little bit sore for like a week and Nissa is fine right away. Wouldn’t want something as trivial as realistic exhaustion and injuries to get in the way of our superhero story, would we?
Emrakul goes directly into Jace’s mind and he is virtually unaffected by it afterward. One would think that being mind-raped by Cthulhu would be enough to at least cause him a few headaches. Nope!
Chandra and Nissa survive in a poison gas chamber for a remarkable amount of time and are saved by Ajani ex machina. Wonderful. Hell, even the frail old woman with no special powers or abilities survives this experience. What was Baral using? Laughing gas?
Chandra does what was earlier implied to be self-destruction in order to blow up the planar gate, and survives. Their explanation, you ask? Gideon protected her with his indestructibility. The trouble is, never before has anything in the story shown that Gideon could make other people indestructible. Do you think that might have come in handy when an exploding sun god spear was flying at his friends? What about when his allies were being slaughtered on Zendikar? Apparently, the characters’ powers are decided by the needs of the plot, not vice versa. Bad storytelling at its finest.
Those are just the obvious ones. There are probably others. Still don’t believe in plot armor?
Having the eldrazi be the Jason Voorhees of the MTG world makes them just as bland and boring as him. Why have characters that are so powerful that they can't be beaten? I get that this is exactly your point, but you fail to realize that if they can be defeated, then everyone can be defeated.
The Eldrazi being defeated had already been established as possible. Death is not the only method of defeat. The Eldrazi were trapped by Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri, which stopped them from eating planes. They weren’t unbeatable, just unkillable. You don’t see people saying that every planeswalker has plot armor just because they can planeswalk away from threats. Planeswalkers can be defeated, but only in certain ways. The same goes for the Eldrazi. The fact that creative chose to kill them despite establishing them as eternal, undying space gods is pretty damn strange, if you ask me.
And here’s another thing: the Eldrazi titans were never really considered bland and boring. The Eldrazi spawn certainly were, yes, but the titans were very unique and mysterious. They had a lot space for speculation by fans and development by creative. We still don’t know what their true purpose was. And now they’re dead. Great. Do you know who is considered bland and boring by a lot or people? The Gatewatch.
Your whole “if they can be defeated, everyone can be defeated” falls apart when you realize that power levels aren’t and never were what protects characters from death. Popularity and brand recognition is the real plot armor. People would have considered the Eldrazi dying very unlikely before BFZ block, but everyone knew that the death of Jace was impossible (even if some of us really hoped for it). The death of Elspeth did much more for dispelling plot armor than Ulamog and Kozilek dying ever did. Yet it still wasn’t enough, because we all still know that Jace will never die, and the rest of Gatewatch is all too unlikely to die too.
Your really just upset because you haven't seen it yet; but I would argue that it would be terrible writing for them to have lost so early into their creation. It would be a colossal waste of time, and story building, to have them lose outright to the first or second foes they faced.
Ok, sure, but where the hell did I say that I thought the Gatewatch should lose right away? They should have won in their first battle, which is why choosing for them to fight the Eldrazi first was a terrible idea. And if they just had to go with that idea, they could have had the Gatewatch imprison the Eldrazi or drive them away from Zendikar rather than killing them. But what we were talking about is them losing in Amonkhet, which is their fourth story arc. There’s nothing wrong with them losing there. In fact, it would kind of be wrong if they didn’t, considering the circumstances.
and so far its just been the eldrazi, and tezzeret. And frankly, they didn't beat emrakul. emrakul and a non gatewatch member beat emrakul.
BFZ was arguably a loss too because the titans dying could actually screw up the multiverse (as suggested by Ugin), but the Gatewatch accomplished what they set out to do and they consider it a victory. The same goes for SOI. They wanted to stop Emrakul, and they did. It really doesn’t matter if she wanted to be trapped or not. Emrakul is mutating and killing the people of Innistrad anymore, so the Gatewatch is satisfied. Of course, she could escape someday, but leaving room for the villain to return as a future plot is pretty common. So BFZ, SOI, and KLD were victories. Some were victories with an asterisk next to them, perhaps, but they were victories nonetheless. We are yet to have a real defeat.
and two of the gatewatch would have died in the next story if not for another non gatewatch walker.
Ah, yes, deus ex machina is the pinnacle of good storytelling and heroes getting saved out of nowhere from their imminent deaths definitely shows that it’s actually possible for them to die /sarcasm.
and even with 7 walkers, and an entire rebellion, it still took Chandra kamakazeeing herself into the planar portal just for them to defeat 2 walkers and a blue mage.
How is these even arguments against plot armor? Heroes having obstacles along the way isn’t proof that they aren’t plot armored, it’s just what happens in pretty much every story ever. Sure, they didn’t win easily but that’s not what we’re even discussing. I’m not saying it’s a problem that they succeed too easily, I’m saying that they succeed too much and fail too little.
If any characters have 'plot armor' it would be the villains, and just Chandra out of the gatewatch if any.
See the list above for how this is not true at all. Also, since the villains (save Nahiri and Emrakul, kind of) have actually been defeated in some way, they all have one more defeat than the Gatewatch. Hell, some villains have actually DIED (Ulamog and Kozilek). The villains pretty obviously have less plot armor than the heroes, not more, so this is a ridiculous thing to say.
But I'm still not sold that the gatewatch have plot armor, when comparing them to the villains all over the mtg multiverse like: the eldrazi before BFZ block, Bolas, the phyrexians, tezzeret, the new elder dragons, etc.....
The Eldrazi were never even really fought against before BFZ. We left Zendikar shortly after their release, without any real story arc about fighting them. Bolas has actually been defeated by both Tetsuo Umezawa and Ajani. Phyrexia lost after trying to invade Dominaria. Tezzeret was defeated and enslaved by Bolas, failed to become Father of Machines on New Phyrexia, and was stopped by the Gatewatch on Kaladesh. The guy has literally never won. Tarkir’s dragonlords haven’t been defeated for pretty obvious reasons: the Tarkir block was about showing how the dragons became rulers of the plane instead of the Khans thanks to Sarkhan’s time travel. The dragonlords being defeated would get in the way of that. The dragons will be almost certainly be fought against and quite possibly defeated once we return to Tarkir.
So yeah, pretty much everything you listed there was wrong. Yikes. Sorry about that. This kind of makes me start to doubt your understanding of pre-Gatewatch lore.
its pretty obvious all this complaining about plot armor is nothing but hyperbole from people who were sick of the gatewatch characters before BFZ block was even announced
First things first, don’t generalize. Many people were fine with the Gatewatch at first but are now growing sick of them. This problem is only going to get worse. But even if some people were sick of the characters before they became the Gatewatch, that doesn’t make those people’s argument irrelevant. You want to imply that we say these things because we are biased, but we actually say them because they are true.
I'm still curious as to what the long term effects are for killing two titans... would be really nice to show actual consequences for the gatewatch's actions. For Amonkhet I'd love to see bolas kidnap a member and torture them. Liliana might compromise the mission with being too involved in her own agenda, which sounds good to me.
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No, our personal dislike of the Gatewatch doesn’t give them plot armor. But the Gatewatch repeatedly going through experiences without dying or even suffering real, long-term effects when they clearly should be affected? Yeah, that gives them plot armor. Let’s list them off, shall we?
The Eldrazi being defeated had already been established as possible. Death is not the only method of defeat. The Eldrazi were trapped by Ugin, Sorin, and Nahiri, which stopped them from eating planes. They weren’t unbeatable, just unkillable. You don’t see people saying that every planeswalker has plot armor just because they can planeswalk away from threats. Planeswalkers can be defeated, but only in certain ways. The same goes for the Eldrazi. The fact that creative chose to kill them despite establishing them as eternal, undying space gods is pretty damn strange, if you ask me.
And here’s another thing: the Eldrazi titans were never really considered bland and boring. The Eldrazi spawn certainly were, yes, but the titans were very unique and mysterious. They had a lot space for speculation by fans and development by creative. We still don’t know what their true purpose was. And now they’re dead. Great. Do you know who is considered bland and boring by a lot or people? The Gatewatch.
Your whole “if they can be defeated, everyone can be defeated” falls apart when you realize that power levels aren’t and never were what protects characters from death. Popularity and brand recognition is the real plot armor. People would have considered the Eldrazi dying very unlikely before BFZ block, but everyone knew that the death of Jace was impossible (even if some of us really hoped for it). The death of Elspeth did much more for dispelling plot armor than Ulamog and Kozilek dying ever did. Yet it still wasn’t enough, because we all still know that Jace will never die, and the rest of Gatewatch is all too unlikely to die too.
Ok, sure, but where the hell did I say that I thought the Gatewatch should lose right away? They should have won in their first battle, which is why choosing for them to fight the Eldrazi first was a terrible idea. And if they just had to go with that idea, they could have had the Gatewatch imprison the Eldrazi or drive them away from Zendikar rather than killing them. But what we were talking about is them losing in Amonkhet, which is their fourth story arc. There’s nothing wrong with them losing there. In fact, it would kind of be wrong if they didn’t, considering the circumstances.
BFZ was arguably a loss too because the titans dying could actually screw up the multiverse (as suggested by Ugin), but the Gatewatch accomplished what they set out to do and they consider it a victory. The same goes for SOI. They wanted to stop Emrakul, and they did. It really doesn’t matter if she wanted to be trapped or not. Emrakul is mutating and killing the people of Innistrad anymore, so the Gatewatch is satisfied. Of course, she could escape someday, but leaving room for the villain to return as a future plot is pretty common. So BFZ, SOI, and KLD were victories. Some were victories with an asterisk next to them, perhaps, but they were victories nonetheless. We are yet to have a real defeat.
Ah, yes, deus ex machina is the pinnacle of good storytelling and heroes getting saved out of nowhere from their imminent deaths definitely shows that it’s actually possible for them to die /sarcasm.
How is these even arguments against plot armor? Heroes having obstacles along the way isn’t proof that they aren’t plot armored, it’s just what happens in pretty much every story ever. Sure, they didn’t win easily but that’s not what we’re even discussing. I’m not saying it’s a problem that they succeed too easily, I’m saying that they succeed too much and fail too little.
See the list above for how this is not true at all. Also, since the villains (save Nahiri and Emrakul, kind of) have actually been defeated in some way, they all have one more defeat than the Gatewatch. Hell, some villains have actually DIED (Ulamog and Kozilek). The villains pretty obviously have less plot armor than the heroes, not more, so this is a ridiculous thing to say.
The Eldrazi were never even really fought against before BFZ. We left Zendikar shortly after their release, without any real story arc about fighting them. Bolas has actually been defeated by both Tetsuo Umezawa and Ajani. Phyrexia lost after trying to invade Dominaria. Tezzeret was defeated and enslaved by Bolas, failed to become Father of Machines on New Phyrexia, and was stopped by the Gatewatch on Kaladesh. The guy has literally never won. Tarkir’s dragonlords haven’t been defeated for pretty obvious reasons: the Tarkir block was about showing how the dragons became rulers of the plane instead of the Khans thanks to Sarkhan’s time travel. The dragonlords being defeated would get in the way of that. The dragons will be almost certainly be fought against and quite possibly defeated once we return to Tarkir.
So yeah, pretty much everything you listed there was wrong. Yikes. Sorry about that. This kind of makes me start to doubt your understanding of pre-Gatewatch lore.
First things first, don’t generalize. Many people were fine with the Gatewatch at first but are now growing sick of them. This problem is only going to get worse. But even if some people were sick of the characters before they became the Gatewatch, that doesn’t make those people’s argument irrelevant. You want to imply that we say these things because we are biased, but we actually say them because they are true.