1. Most people need more duals
2. They are frontier playable
3. They will be unique so they might keep a slight premium over the pack version
4. Compare them to the FNM promos we have been getting
5. Standard showdown was nice but most people like me got a dual land at best
6. Battle for Zendikar was a terrible block with terrible EV so it will be an easier way to access the lands
7. Originally there were supposed to rotate sooner so people may have already gotten rid of them
Of course I would prefer free Gideons or if these were random and contained and expedition 1/30 packs, but it is free unique stuff that helps support the FLGS
For the last few years, with Modern Masters and Eternal Masters, they have pushed the popularity of eternal formats. Why are they surprised if Standard has less attendance?
I usually get to 2-3 FNM/Standard events at my LGS per month. This promo will be a definite incentive to make sure I hit 6 in that two month period. Its not the best promo in the work but definitely a nice incentive if you are going frequently enough to add 1-2 more in there.
What's the old saying? Wizards could put a $5 bill in every pack and players would still complain?
Guess it's true. Rofl.
Conversely, there's an equally as old saying that goes by "Wizards could take a dump on every booster and fanboys would still defend it because it was free"
I would up the ante by also tossing in alternate art Standard Legal Planeswalkers that aren't in deck products or other high sought after mythics into the mix.
This is weird.
It simultaneously smacks of both desperation and laziness.
I don't think a special Sunken Hollow is really going to spike interest that well.
The above poster who suggested Planeswalkers is on the right path,
if perhaps overshooting a bit.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
so what kind of lands are we talking about, just the bfz duals? Mehtastic news if that's the case. The playmat ok, concept behind it sounds great in theory, but let's not delude ourselves, every shop will sell these for a premium online to make some cash on the sideline.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
The only way they'd get me in the door to play standard with that kind of shenaniganry is if they were offering either shock lands or Zendikar fetches. Actually, if they did the later I think every LGS would be packed to the brim with people throwing themselves at the gates of heaven for a Scalding tarn, quality of the format be damned.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What a waste of time and effort. These promos needed to be Zendikar fetches, not BFZ battlelands.
This is the company that shut down it's one best source of community feedback (the official forums), and is running around in the woodlands like Mr. Burns from the simpsons after getting drugged up to high heavens in that X-Files crossover.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The real problem is the RPTQ system more than the format. If other formats haven't suffered as much as standard, I would argue it's because:
-Modern is generally played by "more serious" players, who the RPTQ format is aimed at. Also, if you've invested in a modern deck you want to play it.
-Limited doesn't require any planning or investment, you can jump right in without feeling disadvantaged
Agreed. I would also point a finger at EDH.
It used to be, if you were a dirty casual, you would still play Standard because even if you fared horribly, it was nevertheless the premier Constructed format that was accessible to you on a casual budget. Now, EDH is ubiquitous and casuals can just play that. EDH is completely outside the pipeline that once converted Standard players to Modern players. Today, what's the incentive for me to start playing Standard if I'm not already playing Modern?
Problems I see with a constant stream of this kind of bonus, people will start to think they are entitled to this sort of "compensation".
If they continue with this kind of activity, we could reach a point where standard is at its most enjoyable ever but people still don't attend because the current gift program is not worth enough.
Like people who don't go to FNM events because "the current promo is bad". Or those who don't go to prerelease-events because they aren't guaranteed mythic rare promos anymore.
The price becomes more relevant than the actual event.
Except we then get intro pack rares, the cards that are practically made to be bad, or WoTC focuses on gimmicks or random trinkets to try and sell you on and those are worth even less to players of the game. A card board crown that wouldn't even fit a toddler's head, a cardboard model of a thopter (although I liked it personally), or random "hero cards" for fighting minotaurs are not going to get people into the seats at prereleases or release days, and neither will promos of cards that are not even good for Standard, the reason you go to FNM. Things that cannot be used in Magic really shouldn't have a place in the bonuses for those days. Sure they can still throw in those trinkets, but it shouldn't come at the cost of the the promo, the actual thing you can use to play the game.
There has clearly been a dip in reward for even showing up. The reason why the new batch of FNM promos get people hyped is because we have cards that can actually be used in Standard, and outside of it. We don't need $20 cards, but man alive we should at least be getting something that is playable at the very least.
I've been talking about their poor company direction for a while. It's so clear to anyone playing the game that the player community is tired of their bad products.
Although I disagree with most of what you're saying, some of it makes sense, and I want to address those parts:
2. Eliminate mythic rares. That fact that you are telling us what is very rare destroys the games trading card aspect.
I do agree that the advent of mythic rares was a big factor in messing up Standard, even if it didn't mess it up overnight. It raised the barrier for entry into the format while simultaneously skewing the EV of every pack and driving down the value of regular rares. Sure, in WotC's eyes it was worth it because the whales spend more, now. But it also means that the minnows are left without much of an entry point into competitive play.
I would actually be happy to see masterpieces totally supplant mythic rares. If you're going to put lottery tickets into packs, don't make them Standard legal. Now you have to spend less to build a Standard deck, but you still have a chase element that will drive the whales to crack packs.
5. Get some different game designers. Your massive creatures and lack of answers makes no sense.
Eh, it makes sense in a stupid way. But yeah, it's misguided. Getting your cool creature removed / countered is a feel-bad moment, and WotC wants fewer of those. I get it. The problem is that, by eliminating feel-bad moments, you also eliminate a lot of texture and interactivity from the game. If it's just two opposing games of solitaire to see who can produce their huge creature first, that's boring. Sure, I'm never profoundly disappointed, but there's also no risk, and risk is fun. I don't think WotC fully grasps what they trade away by keeping the game safe from "feel-bads".
Playing together at midnight with new cards nobody else before could play with SHOULD be enough ideally.
Playing together with who? You assume everyone goes in with a group of friends or that they are regulars at one specific place enough to know others for it to be called "playing together". Secondly playing earlier or seeing early has NEVER been a good enough reason for anything. Congrats, you saw/played something two weeks before me and paid more for it, yay for you, hope it was worth spending more just to do the same thing I'll pay the normal price for two weeks later.
If the next prerelease is just 6 boosters of AKH no fluff around it, prerelease attendance would probably plummet drastically even if the prices are adjusted accordingly.
All those promos and additional stuff does, is raise expectations and setup disappointment imo.
Then if it would decrease then why wouldn't they want to go back to when people came when there were decent incentives for doing so? You say it would decrease then that is even more of a reason to go back to when we had something to draw more people in.
They were meant as a token of gratitude, not a salary or something like that.
I didn't say it was based on money or "salary", I said having cards that are PLAYABLE.
Well those landa are pretty pricey considerning the price of a standard deck (50 euros for a budget one) and the entry fee for the events (let's say about 5 euros for one) those would cost me about 80 euros! That's too much!
There are definitely people who will whine if they discontinue this, but I'm not sure if it'll hurt the game noticeably. People said that tournament participation would plummet after Magic Player Rewards was discontinued, but that doesn't seem to have happened.
Haven't the bans helped Standard a bit? I only draft but all the Modern players at my LGS, as they play their super linear decks that barely interact with their opponent, were constantly taking a dump on Standard as they played solitaire.
Oh right, this is MTGS, where most users don't even enjoy playing Magic: they only care about netdecks and paying as little as possible for products and getting as many 20+ dollar cards as possible or bust.
Also I do think these promo lands might be worth a decent amount in the long run: the BFZ lands are solid and EDH staples.
Guess I'm a sucker but I think this is nice. Wanted to get into something different then edh but not shell out insane money to play. New standard cards are fairly cheap (vehicles). Granted was already in the process of building the deck but seeing small insentives like this is nice.
Yes again, not ground breaking or making me feel like I need to get involved asap or I'm missing something huge, but it's a small gesture to probably keep me playing to hit that goal.
Maybe just maybe this is simply a reward for Standard regulars who were coming anyway. A lot of the complaints about WoTC over the last few years have been that they only care about trying to get new people in the door adn dumbing down the game. A promotion that will mainly be for those who are regulars is just nice.
This looks like an attempt to restart the Magic Players Rewards program, exactly as it should've been - give the prizes to the stores, and make them responsible for handing them out.
I can't say that I agree with the limited timeline, or "only Standard events"-ness, but I look at this as a very good sign. WOTC wants us to play more Magic, so they're giving us free stuff for playing Magic. It's a nice reward for playing, not something to try to incentivize people to put together a standard list and get crushed for six weeks in a row. "We noticed that you showed up every week for the last 6 weeks. Have a $5 rare on us."
If you weren't going to play at all, it's not going to get you out of bed, but if you were going to go to four of them anyway, it's a nice incentive to go to two more. Maybe eventually there will be something that also includes prereleases or drafts or tracks your DCI number across stores.
These are not aimed at me at all, but I'm happy that they exist.
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Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
8. Eliminate special products. Put those special cards into standard sets. No more EDH support unless you buy a standard booster pack. This idea that sets can't be big is dumb. Add every new card only in standard products.
I agreed with you till this one.... There are some keywords and effects that would not translate well and would more than likely be seen as lowering the pack EV for the overall set due to stand unplayability.
Power-level (for both formats) might also be a concern because EDH is made to play at turns 6+ where Standard is in its end-game around turn 7.
It also lets Wizards put more reprints (though recently they have been shoddy reprints) into circulation, leaving more space in Standard sets for new cards.
One takeway from this thread is definitely that Magic's pendulum has swung too far. WotC wanted to put an end to the day of players who love the most "fun" spells being blown out by Counterspell and Swords to Plowshares answering their 6 mana investment for nothing, but the pendulum has swung much much too far. There is a happy medium between the best red removal being Lightning Bolt and it being Harnessed Lightning or Chandra's Pyrohelix. More strikingly, creatures don't need to be Verduous Gearhulk levels of "haha WTF Pwned" to make an impact. Standard has sort of become a game of rocket tag, where the first threat to fail to be answered (by an expensive answer or summoning a bigger fish) just runs away with the game. Perhaps most of all, the removal of efficient boardwipes like even Day of Judgment (to say nothing of Damnation has made most controlling decks simply fall too far behind early on to really make a go of it.
AER is hopefully the first step in rectifying this - we got Fatal Push, Yahenni's Expertise, and Disallow which are all big deals. Metallic Rebuke is also in the realm of Mana Leak for a fairly minimal deckbuilding investment. Fingers crossed that this is a plan and not a total fluke.
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Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I see lots of people here who are angry. I see people who are frustrated that standard is getting more support while their format is ignored. I see people who feel somewhat vindicated(?) that this apparent "move of desperation" validates their their dim views on WotC's business practices. I see people who mourn for the halcyon days when these promos would be associated with giant money mythics. I can even see some people lamenting the general play direction that standard has taken.
With that said... is anyone out there claiming that this program will make the game actively worse?
I mean, the worst-case scenario I could see here is the risk of accidentally reinforcing bad behaviors if attendance picks up... and that's it.
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1. Most people need more duals
2. They are frontier playable
3. They will be unique so they might keep a slight premium over the pack version
4. Compare them to the FNM promos we have been getting
5. Standard showdown was nice but most people like me got a dual land at best
6. Battle for Zendikar was a terrible block with terrible EV so it will be an easier way to access the lands
7. Originally there were supposed to rotate sooner so people may have already gotten rid of them
Of course I would prefer free Gideons or if these were random and contained and expedition 1/30 packs, but it is free unique stuff that helps support the FLGS
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Conversely, there's an equally as old saying that goes by "Wizards could take a dump on every booster and fanboys would still defend it because it was free"
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
It simultaneously smacks of both desperation and laziness.
I don't think a special Sunken Hollow is really going to spike interest that well.
The above poster who suggested Planeswalkers is on the right path,
if perhaps overshooting a bit.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is the company that shut down it's one best source of community feedback (the official forums), and is running around in the woodlands like Mr. Burns from the simpsons after getting drugged up to high heavens in that X-Files crossover.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It used to be, if you were a dirty casual, you would still play Standard because even if you fared horribly, it was nevertheless the premier Constructed format that was accessible to you on a casual budget. Now, EDH is ubiquitous and casuals can just play that. EDH is completely outside the pipeline that once converted Standard players to Modern players. Today, what's the incentive for me to start playing Standard if I'm not already playing Modern?
Except we then get intro pack rares, the cards that are practically made to be bad, or WoTC focuses on gimmicks or random trinkets to try and sell you on and those are worth even less to players of the game. A card board crown that wouldn't even fit a toddler's head, a cardboard model of a thopter (although I liked it personally), or random "hero cards" for fighting minotaurs are not going to get people into the seats at prereleases or release days, and neither will promos of cards that are not even good for Standard, the reason you go to FNM. Things that cannot be used in Magic really shouldn't have a place in the bonuses for those days. Sure they can still throw in those trinkets, but it shouldn't come at the cost of the the promo, the actual thing you can use to play the game.
There has clearly been a dip in reward for even showing up. The reason why the new batch of FNM promos get people hyped is because we have cards that can actually be used in Standard, and outside of it. We don't need $20 cards, but man alive we should at least be getting something that is playable at the very least.
I do agree that the advent of mythic rares was a big factor in messing up Standard, even if it didn't mess it up overnight. It raised the barrier for entry into the format while simultaneously skewing the EV of every pack and driving down the value of regular rares. Sure, in WotC's eyes it was worth it because the whales spend more, now. But it also means that the minnows are left without much of an entry point into competitive play.
I would actually be happy to see masterpieces totally supplant mythic rares. If you're going to put lottery tickets into packs, don't make them Standard legal. Now you have to spend less to build a Standard deck, but you still have a chase element that will drive the whales to crack packs.
Eh, it makes sense in a stupid way. But yeah, it's misguided. Getting your cool creature removed / countered is a feel-bad moment, and WotC wants fewer of those. I get it. The problem is that, by eliminating feel-bad moments, you also eliminate a lot of texture and interactivity from the game. If it's just two opposing games of solitaire to see who can produce their huge creature first, that's boring. Sure, I'm never profoundly disappointed, but there's also no risk, and risk is fun. I don't think WotC fully grasps what they trade away by keeping the game safe from "feel-bads".
Playing together with who? You assume everyone goes in with a group of friends or that they are regulars at one specific place enough to know others for it to be called "playing together". Secondly playing earlier or seeing early has NEVER been a good enough reason for anything. Congrats, you saw/played something two weeks before me and paid more for it, yay for you, hope it was worth spending more just to do the same thing I'll pay the normal price for two weeks later.
Then if it would decrease then why wouldn't they want to go back to when people came when there were decent incentives for doing so? You say it would decrease then that is even more of a reason to go back to when we had something to draw more people in.
I didn't say it was based on money or "salary", I said having cards that are PLAYABLE.
Why can't they make magic great again?
Modern: UB Zombie hunt UB - WR Boros tokens WR - BGW Treefolk tribal BGW
Commander: UR Mizzix, a Storm of spells UR (Decklist)
There are definitely people who will whine if they discontinue this, but I'm not sure if it'll hurt the game noticeably. People said that tournament participation would plummet after Magic Player Rewards was discontinued, but that doesn't seem to have happened.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Oh right, this is MTGS, where most users don't even enjoy playing Magic: they only care about netdecks and paying as little as possible for products and getting as many 20+ dollar cards as possible or bust.
Also I do think these promo lands might be worth a decent amount in the long run: the BFZ lands are solid and EDH staples.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Yes again, not ground breaking or making me feel like I need to get involved asap or I'm missing something huge, but it's a small gesture to probably keep me playing to hit that goal.
I can't say that I agree with the limited timeline, or "only Standard events"-ness, but I look at this as a very good sign. WOTC wants us to play more Magic, so they're giving us free stuff for playing Magic. It's a nice reward for playing, not something to try to incentivize people to put together a standard list and get crushed for six weeks in a row. "We noticed that you showed up every week for the last 6 weeks. Have a $5 rare on us."
If you weren't going to play at all, it's not going to get you out of bed, but if you were going to go to four of them anyway, it's a nice incentive to go to two more. Maybe eventually there will be something that also includes prereleases or drafts or tracks your DCI number across stores.
These are not aimed at me at all, but I'm happy that they exist.
I agreed with you till this one.... There are some keywords and effects that would not translate well and would more than likely be seen as lowering the pack EV for the overall set due to stand unplayability.
Power-level (for both formats) might also be a concern because EDH is made to play at turns 6+ where Standard is in its end-game around turn 7.
It also lets Wizards put more reprints (though recently they have been shoddy reprints) into circulation, leaving more space in Standard sets for new cards.
AER is hopefully the first step in rectifying this - we got Fatal Push, Yahenni's Expertise, and Disallow which are all big deals. Metallic Rebuke is also in the realm of Mana Leak for a fairly minimal deckbuilding investment. Fingers crossed that this is a plan and not a total fluke.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I see lots of people here who are angry. I see people who are frustrated that standard is getting more support while their format is ignored. I see people who feel somewhat vindicated(?) that this apparent "move of desperation" validates their their dim views on WotC's business practices. I see people who mourn for the halcyon days when these promos would be associated with giant money mythics. I can even see some people lamenting the general play direction that standard has taken.
With that said... is anyone out there claiming that this program will make the game actively worse?
I mean, the worst-case scenario I could see here is the risk of accidentally reinforcing bad behaviors if attendance picks up... and that's it.