The author of that article doesn't know anything..."failing to make headway among casual and hardcore players" - basically every hardcore player uses MTGO!
Hmm, I'm really not so sure.
100% (literally every single one) of my friends, including myself, who have played magic since 1993, and some who joined maybe 6 years ago, who all play regularly, attend every tournament in their region, regularly go to fnm, who eat sleep and breathe new deck ideas or tweaks; they all only play paper. None of them, not a single one, has got past the initial stage of "oh, so this is what mtgo is like... Jeez it's a pile of crap".
These are definitely the hardcore demographic. They've stuck with the game through thick and thin, and support the tournament scene and local shops with their consistent involvement and patronage. And none of them can stand mtgo.
Oh and back on page one (different mtgs poster); that summary of what needs to be done to mtgo to "fix" a digital version of magic.... Buddy; It needs to go well beyond graphical improvements! The entire UI is fundamentally wrong, in terms of intuitiveness and utility. I could design a core concept, functionality brief and critical path for a "new mtgo" product in 15 minutes that would be miles better than the heaving-trash-pile they've been flogging and reskinning for a decade or so... I think the main problem is that your average user can't really imagine the alternative, how much easier and better it could be, and for the most part accepts what they are given.
FYI, they are doing this due to the generation shift. Magic the gathering has serious issues for the younger generations of gamers such as price of entry. Let alone games like gwent and hearthstone.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
FYI, they are doing this due to the generation shift. Magic the gathering has serious issues for the younger generations of gamers such as price of entry. Let alone games like gwent and hearthstone.
There are always other card games.
And they have in common that they come and go, magic stays and probably will forever, as it isnt coupled to a brand that will vanish (pokemon and heartstone are bound to other franchises that still exist, and as long as people play WoW Heartstone will be a thing, as long as Pokemon games are released it will also be a trading card game ; but its still hard to judge when that is no longer the case, maybe they will stay, maybe not).
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I never played Magic Online and probably never will, as i seek the social Friday Night magic atmosphere in my local game store, thats what i value the most, and its a consistent return to a game that existed for almost my entire life and all people that do the same will stick to the game, leave for some time, and still return and even bring their children to the game.
If they can really capture the game in digital form, it has to be simplified a lot, but in the end, the game is more complex than almost any other TCG that has a digital version, so the step from paper to digital isnt as straight forward as it is for other games.
FYI, they are doing this due to the generation shift. Magic the gathering has serious issues for the younger generations of gamers such as price of entry. Let alone games like gwent and hearthstone.
There are always other card games.
And they have in common that they come and go, magic stays and probably will forever, as it isnt coupled to a brand that will vanish (pokemon and heartstone are bound to other franchises that still exist, and as long as people play WoW Heartstone will be a thing, as long as Pokemon games are released it will also be a trading card game ; but its still hard to judge when that is no longer the case, maybe they will stay, maybe not).
----
I never played Magic Online and probably never will, as i seek the social Friday Night magic atmosphere in my local game store, thats what i value the most, and its a consistent return to a game that existed for almost my entire life and all people that do the same will stick to the game, leave for some time, and still return and even bring their children to the game.
If they can really capture the game in digital form, it has to be simplified a lot, but in the end, the game is more complex than almost any other TCG that has a digital version, so the step from paper to digital isnt as straight forward as it is for other games.
The game isn't going to vanish, but it's in decline due to faster, easier to learn and quicker to play games preventing new players from ever stepping into magic. Also, the costs of modern are presenting a problem on a public relations standpoint. Existing players don't have the same confidence in the game that existed a while ago as well. Kind of reminds me of fallen empires days.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Honestly, I'm done with digital, micro transaction games. That's one of the reasons I'm getting back into paper magic after five years. I'm sick of looking at my "free to play" game accounts with hundreds of dollars put into with absolutely zero to show for it. Take a stack of real magic cards, you can feel them, you can smell them, you can buy them, you can sell them. Same with my PS1/PS2/N64/Dreamcast/GameCube games and systems. They're real tangible items. What can I do with my hearthstone/LoL/insertrandomftpgame account that I don't even touch any more? Nothing, that's the answer to that question, absolutely nothing. I was on board this this micro transaction/FTP BS for a long time, but I've become jaded and have realized just how stupid and pointless it is.
And you know that's exactly what they'll put out... FTP! Packs of cards for $3 that are just 0s and 1s on some server! No thanks.
Honestly, I'm done with digital, micro transaction games. That's one of the reasons I'm getting back into paper magic after five years. I'm sick of looking at my "free to play" game accounts with hundreds of dollars put into with absolutely zero to show for it. Take a stack of real magic cards, you can feel them, you can smell them, you can buy them, you can sell them. Same with my PS1/PS2/N64/Dreamcast/GameCube games and systems. They're real tangible items. What can I do with my hearthstone/LoL/insertrandomftpgame account that I don't even touch any more? Nothing, that's the answer to that question, absolutely nothing. I was on board this this micro transaction/FTP BS for a long time, but I've become jaded and have realized just how stupid and pointless it is.
And you know that's exactly what they'll put out... FTP! Packs of cards for $3 that are just 0s and 1s on some server! No thanks.
*hops off soap box
Truth right there. Why I dont buy my books as Ebooks. The profit boost must be insane when you consider there is no actual PRODUCT being shipped, created, stored, or taking up rack space. I work in software and always knew digital was a scam.
That said, I play on MTGO because its easier to fit in my schedule, and I'm fine with the costs sunk.
Right now we just have to sort of wait and see what Wizards of the Coast does. I really feel like they are in a World of Warcraft decline era now for the game, where it will eventually level out after some peaks at some set releases and downs. The only hope they have to bring the magic playing population back up to Return to Ravnica levels is to solve the cost of entry issues on the paper side, which they are desperately trying to do and failing at thanks to not reprinting what people actually want over half the time. It took nearly cataclysmic levels of BS to even get them to do an Aetherhub FNM promo. Hopefully whatever digital products they come up with actually do something positive for the game, like reducing singles prices by having online game codes added to each booster pack.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Here's my optimistic guess, wizards manages to fit the card game on cellphones and have it work and play great. you get x amount of duals and you pay for more. wins net you booster packs, if you wanna crank extra packs you pay. addictive, competitive, pay to play more.
wizards needs to set up an online paper store that allows you to purchase singles right from them, leveling out card prices while carefully providing only enough stock to keep brick and mortar card shops in business
Even now when it is at its peak of peaks it is still behind Yugioh in sales, tournament attendance and cards printed. Quality subjective but the hard numbers had YGO as the market leader.
YGO sells so well Konami is the #1 tcg company on the planet despite it being primarily an arcade/tech company with ONE tcg at all.
YGO has more cards in circulation than us currency.
MTG set its record for tournament attendance and ygo casually DOUBLED it.
MTG is #2 physical tcg and modo is #2 digital tcg (by large margin)
Internationally mtg isn't even wotc's mumber 1 game. wotc Duelmasters is the top game in Japan for example.
Honestly, I'm done with digital, micro transaction games. That's one of the reasons I'm getting back into paper magic after five years. I'm sick of looking at my "free to play" game accounts with hundreds of dollars put into with absolutely zero to show for it. Take a stack of real magic cards, you can feel them, you can smell them, you can buy them, you can sell them. Same with my PS1/PS2/N64/Dreamcast/GameCube games and systems. They're real tangible items. What can I do with my hearthstone/LoL/insertrandomftpgame account that I don't even touch any more? Nothing, that's the answer to that question, absolutely nothing. I was on board this this micro transaction/FTP BS for a long time, but I've become jaded and have realized just how stupid and pointless it is.
And you know that's exactly what they'll put out... FTP! Packs of cards for $3 that are just 0s and 1s on some server! No thanks.
*hops off soap box
Truth right there. Why I dont buy my books as Ebooks. The profit boost must be insane when you consider there is no actual PRODUCT being shipped, created, stored, or taking up rack space. I work in software and always knew digital was a scam.
That said, I play on MTGO because its easier to fit in my schedule, and I'm fine with the costs sunk.
Your paying for a game, not a medium. How is ink and paper inherently more valuable than electricity on an account.
The only thing you could really loose is the secondary market,which is filthy cancer for the most part that has had a net negative effect on the game anyway.
Your paying for a game, not a medium. How is ink and paper inherently more valuable than electricity on an account.
The only thing you could really loose is the secondary market,which is filthy cancer for the most part that has had a net negative effect on the game anyway.
It's specifically against the EULA of 99% if not all FTP online games to sell you account and is a bannable offense. How does it hold more value you ask? I can take my paper cards to a store and sell them, I can sell them on eBay, I can sell them to any number online retailers, I can trade them to my friends and other people at card shops. When was the last time you did that with your Hearthstone cards, or your LoL skins? I'm guessing never. Tangible items absolutely hold more value than their digital counter parts.
As for the secondary market. It and the primary market are one and the same, they can cannot and would not exist without the other. The primary market dictates how the secondary market acts and the secondary market effects the primary markets policies. The secondary market is no doubt in a rough patch, which has a lot to do with WotC over printing product, reprinting too much, and the treasures in combination with WotCs current print policy. They will need to correct this eventually or they game will not survive, and you can count on the fact that they will. History has shown, time and time again, when the secondary market of a tcg dies so does the game it's self. Go look at any number of old dead tcgs. There's a reason Magic has survived all these years and it's because wizards is smart and careful with the secondary market, which is the true back bone of any tcg.
The real problem wotc has with mtg is a problem brought about by the tournament scene: The death of traditional deck building.
Magic has so many viable options competing in formats like modern that deck building competitive decks has become a major time investment in itself. Most players can't hold a candle to the pro player think tanks that have the time to test tons of edge cases and cards, which has led to a higher dependence on pro articles to figure out what is good. This in turn has lead to a massive inbreeding of decks much like how anime went in Japan.
Wizards has been desperately trying to make deck building easier for all players, but in doing so they've also had to sacrifice variety in the process. Not to mention the heavy influence of the competitive scene often renders their attempts at variety pointless.
Digital next hopefully can help in this regard, but outside of a format crunch not much is going to save modern in the long run or frontier. Thankfully sites like this have long running repositories to help with building decks.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The real problem wotc has with mtg is a problem brought about by the tournament scene: The death of traditional deck building.
Magic has so many viable options competing in formats like modern that deck building competitive decks has become a major time investment in itself. Most players can't hold a candle to the pro player think tanks that have the time to test tons of edge cases and cards, which has led to a higher dependence on pro articles to figure out what is good. This in turn has lead to a massive inbreeding of decks much like how anime went in Japan.
Wizards has been desperately trying to make deck building easier for all players, but in doing so they've also had to sacrifice variety in the process. Not to mention the heavy influence of the competitive scene often renders their attempts at variety pointless.
Digital next hopefully can help in this regard, but outside of a format crunch not much is going to save modern in the long run or frontier. Thankfully sites like this have long running repositories to help with building decks.
I honestly don't think the "death of traditional deck building" is an issue, if anything, it helps the community to have people test and play edge case cards. To me, a broader knowledge base is always a better thing, and that goes with anything in life. I just came back to the game after five years and the first thing I did was start browsing standard cards and filtering on the gatherer and brewing. I never really even looked at popular decks until I started to make my SB. Then I watched SCG and saw Mardu Vehicles. It was almost card for card what I "brewed" minus the black. Point is there's always cards that are better than others, the cream will always rise to the top.
I don't follower modern so I can really speak to its health, but the game store in my town holds Frontier on Wednesday, I was there last night buying some cards and the was like ten people playing, seem pretty solid for a smaller town with a smallish game store (I'm a only couple towns away from you).
But I do agree that a digital Magic game done properly could help ease people that might feel intimidated into the game. Deck building can certainly be a daunting task. If it was a game that's easy to pick up like Hearthstone I could see it helping the paper game in the long run by introducing the game to people that might be interested in the more challenging side of the game.
Worth Wollpert was a disaster. The guy was just incompetent, yet ran MTGO for a decade. That's insane, and cost Hasbro shareholders an outrageous amount of money. MTG is such a strong game they may be able to overcome this, but they blew a ton of value by not acting sooner.
The real problem wotc has with mtg is a problem brought about by the tournament scene: The death of traditional deck building.
Magic has so many viable options competing in formats like modern that deck building competitive decks has become a major time investment in itself. Most players can't hold a candle to the pro player think tanks that have the time to test tons of edge cases and cards, which has led to a higher dependence on pro articles to figure out what is good. This in turn has lead to a massive inbreeding of decks much like how anime went in Japan.
Wizards has been desperately trying to make deck building easier for all players, but in doing so they've also had to sacrifice variety in the process. Not to mention the heavy influence of the competitive scene often renders their attempts at variety pointless.
Digital next hopefully can help in this regard, but outside of a format crunch not much is going to save modern in the long run or frontier. Thankfully sites like this have long running repositories to help with building decks.
I honestly don't think the "death of traditional deck building" is an issue, if anything, it helps the community to have people test and play edge case cards. To me, a broader knowledge base is always a better thing, and that goes with anything in life. I just came back to the game after five years and the first thing I did was start browsing standard cards and filtering on the gatherer and brewing. I never really even looked at popular decks until I started to make my SB. Then I watched SCG and saw Mardu Vehicles. It was almost card for card what I "brewed" minus the black. Point is there's always cards that are better than others, the cream will always rise to the top.
I don't follower modern so I can really speak to its health, but the game store in my town holds Frontier on Wednesday, I was there last night buying some cards and the was like ten people playing, seem pretty solid for a smaller town with a smallish game store (I'm a only couple towns away from you).
But I do agree that a digital Magic game done properly could help ease people that might feel intimidated into the game. Deck building can certainly be a daunting task. If it was a game that's easy to pick up like Hearthstone I could see it helping the paper game in the long run by introducing the game to people that might be interested in the more challenging side of the game.
The issue I'm pointing to is that the player base is letting a small number of people tell a large number of people what is "good" and what is "bad", instead of people making independent choices on cards based upon the deck they are trying to build. Also I probably meant standard instead of modern, but modern does have the issue of buckling under the weight of it's card base, of which frontier will eventually start suffering as well. I actually like frontier, but I'm not going to stand around and say that it isn't going to eventually have the issues modern has.
As for MTG Digital next, the primary advantage Digital Magic has is that everything can effectively have an unlimited print run and they can adjust cards and mechanics on the fly, thereby no-longer requiring bannings on cards. Albeit the paper version of the card will probably be forever condemned.
Thoughts that run through my mind thinking about MTG Digital Next:
1) Are they going to allow card trading? Will they have a turn in system to let people trade x commons for an uncommon, x uncommon for a rare, etc, to prevent the need to go to third party sites and make it so pack openings are the primary way to get cards?
2) Will it support existing formats or a modern 2.0? What sets will be enabled at launch?
3) Will there be game codes to redeem for digital mtg packs?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Your first paragraph was describing the secondary market.
If the only value is adding its resale potential that makes it better as an investment scam, not a game.
The Secondary market is filth, games are meant to be played not used as a *****ty stock market.
One thing i like about ygo is they actively hate there secondary market and go out of the way to undercut it. When mtg sacrifices things that would make for good game play at the alter of "preserving value" they are valuing the pocketbooks of rich investors and collectors over what would be most fun for the game.
The Secondary market is why we have ***** like the reserve list and full art lands being so scarce. It also makes cracking packs into *****ty lottery tickets.
Your first paragraph was describing the secondary market.
If the only value is adding its resale potential that makes it better as an investment scam, not a game.
The Secondary market is filth, games are meant to be played not used as a *****ty stock market.
One thing i like about ygo is they actively hate there secondary market and go out of the way to undercut it. When mtg sacrifices things that would make for good game play at the alter of "preserving value" they are valuing the pocketbooks of rich investors and collectors over what would be most fun for the game.
The Secondary market is why we have ***** like the reserve list and full art lands being so scarce. It also makes cracking packs into *****ty lottery tickets.
And?
Still doesn't change the fact that a robust secondary market has direct impact on the popularity of a tcg and vise virsa. Yugioh is a turd of a game, and as you pointed out, actively takes giant dumps on their secondary market. Now the games on its way to grave and its only semi redeeming quality is apparently its app. Look at Pokémon, its secondary market is getting stronger as the game Picks up in popularity.
Like it or not, Magic's strength has a lot to do with how wizards has help mold the secondary market. That's just a fact. The reserve list sucks. But it's a pact, one wizards will always keep. Because when they finally break it, they've lost all trust and reliablilty by going back in their word. Reprinting cards on the reserve list WILL mark paper magics death knell. When you've lost trust you've lost everything. They tell us it's for legal reason but that's a load of bs. It's because they understand what the reserve list really means and aren't blinded by their desire for specific cards.
Wizards is smart (meh, most of the time) when their data tells them the secondary market is actively driving away their player base they'll do something about it.
Your first paragraph was describing the secondary market.
If the only value is adding its resale potential that makes it better as an investment scam, not a game.
The Secondary market is filth, games are meant to be played not used as a *****ty stock market.
One thing i like about ygo is they actively hate there secondary market and go out of the way to undercut it. When mtg sacrifices things that would make for good game play at the alter of "preserving value" they are valuing the pocketbooks of rich investors and collectors over what would be most fun for the game.
The Secondary market is why we have ***** like the reserve list and full art lands being so scarce. It also makes cracking packs into *****ty lottery tickets.
And?
Still doesn't change the fact that a robust secondary market has direct impact on the popularity of a tcg and vise virsa. Yugioh is a turd of a game, and as you pointed out, actively takes giant dumps on their secondary market. Now the games on its way to grave and its only semi redeeming quality is apparently its app. Look at Pokémon, its secondary market is getting stronger as the game Picks up in popularity.
Like it or not, Magic's strength has a lot to do with how wizards has help mold the secondary market. That's just a fact. The reserve list sucks. But it's a pact, one wizards will always keep. Because when they finally break it, they've lost all trust and reliablilty by going back in their word. Reprinting cards on the reserve list WILL mark paper magics death knell. When you've lost trust you've lost everything. They tell us it's for legal reason but that's a load of bs. It's because they understand what the reserve list really means and aren't blinded by their desire for specific cards.
Wizards is smart (meh, most of the time) when their data tells them the secondary market is actively driving away their player base they'll do something about it.
>Still doesn't change the fact that a robust secondary market has direct impact on the popularity of a tcg and vise virsa. Yugioh is a turd of a game, and as you pointed out, actively takes giant dumps on their secondary market.
Yugioh is literally the most popular card game on the planet and hss been for most of its history. MTG is the best selling its ever been and its STILL second place. Konami is the biggest tcg company in the world with there ome tcg thats basically a side project, thats how big YGO is. It is objectively the most successful tcg in human history. Sales, tournament attendance,multimedia, circulation... its not even close. How exactly does thst work as an example of *****ting on your secondary market naking your game unpopular? If anything, it implies the opposite.(Although I doubt much of a correlation)
Masterpieces literally exist as a scheme to lower the evs of packs and thus cheapen standard by voluntarily taxing the rich ********s who masterpieces are the audience for.
But back to my original point, outside the secondary market, which is bull***** that doesnt affect gameplay, how is paper and ink a better medium for a game than electricity?
Your first paragraph was describing the secondary market.
If the only value is adding its resale potential that makes it better as an investment scam, not a game.
The Secondary market is filth, games are meant to be played not used as a *****ty stock market.
One thing i like about ygo is they actively hate there secondary market and go out of the way to undercut it. When mtg sacrifices things that would make for good game play at the alter of "preserving value" they are valuing the pocketbooks of rich investors and collectors over what would be most fun for the game.
The Secondary market is why we have ***** like the reserve list and full art lands being so scarce. It also makes cracking packs into *****ty lottery tickets.
And?
Still doesn't change the fact that a robust secondary market has direct impact on the popularity of a tcg and vise virsa. Yugioh is a turd of a game, and as you pointed out, actively takes giant dumps on their secondary market. Now the games on its way to grave and its only semi redeeming quality is apparently its app. Look at Pokémon, its secondary market is getting stronger as the game Picks up in popularity.
Like it or not, Magic's strength has a lot to do with how wizards has help mold the secondary market. That's just a fact. The reserve list sucks. But it's a pact, one wizards will always keep. Because when they finally break it, they've lost all trust and reliablilty by going back in their word. Reprinting cards on the reserve list WILL mark paper magics death knell. When you've lost trust you've lost everything. They tell us it's for legal reason but that's a load of bs. It's because they understand what the reserve list really means and aren't blinded by their desire for specific cards.
Wizards is smart (meh, most of the time) when their data tells them the secondary market is actively driving away their player base they'll do something about it.
>Still doesn't change the fact that a robust secondary market has direct impact on the popularity of a tcg and vise virsa. Yugioh is a turd of a game, and as you pointed out, actively takes giant dumps on their secondary market.
Yugioh is literally the most popular card game on the planet and hss been for most of its history. MTG is the best selling its ever been and its STILL second place. Konami is the biggest tcg company in the world with there ome tcg thats basically a side project, thats how big YGO is. It is objectively the most successful tcg in human history. Sales, tournament attendance,multimedia, circulation... its not even close. How exactly does thst work as an example of *****ting on your secondary market naking your game unpopular? If anything, it implies the opposite.(Although I doubt much of a correlation)
Masterpieces literally exist as a scheme to lower the evs of packs and thus cheapen standard by voluntarily taxing the rich ********s who masterpieces are the audience for.
But back to my original point, outside the secondary market, which is bull***** that doesnt affect gameplay, how is paper and ink a better medium for a game than electricity?
Your original point was why it's more valuable, which I feel like I explained my veiws on pretty well. Why it's a better medium is more subjective, I can't speak for everyone. For me personally, I've paid my dues in both paper and digital and here is no real replacement for sitting across from a real person and playing some games, organizing your cards, putting them binders/boxes, making trades, etc. But as I've said before, there's certainly room for both and each have their merits.
As far as yugioh goes, fair enough. I spoke without really looking into it and only spoke on my own personal observations which isn't evidence at all. However, I will say that it's supported by a massively popular cartoon and I'd wager a guess that a lot of the packs sold are to kids that never really get into the game. Same way my 5 year old has some Pokémon cards, he doesn't actually play the game. He saw the cartoon, has some Pokémon toys, saw they had cards, and wanted them. We'll never really know active player count for either game, it's almost impossible to know the real numbers. Ive been to and have seen advertised, hundreds of Magic tournament vs the hand full of yugioh tournaments I've even even heard of. Every card shop I've ever been to (while not many I admit) has had MAYBE one case of yugioh singles for sale, usually zero. But again, this is in the US, not the whole world, and my own personal observations are in no way proof.
At the end of the day a strong secondary market is good for everyone. Magic has had its ups and downs for sure. Always has, always will.
Ygo is massively popular with kids and teens. The constant undercutting of the secondary market keeps cards obtainable for people in this age range, allowing even a 12 year old to save up his/her allowance for a reasonably powerful deck for their meta. You can't really compare MTG with YGO when it comes to the secondary market, as they are catering their respective product to vastly different age ranges.
That's not to say that there aren't YGO cards will value, but in the YGO community is has more to do with printings. It's not even alt art, but strictly original print runs. My wife works in a shop that sells YGO singles. A first print run of Blue Eyes White Dragon, last I knew, was around 25 bucks, but it's reprints are a couple of bucks at the most. I assume that is how YGO players pimp their decks, as foils seem to be rampant.
Truth right there. Why I dont buy my books as Ebooks. The profit boost must be insane when you consider there is no actual PRODUCT being shipped, created, stored, or taking up rack space. I work in software and always knew digital was a scam.
That said, I play on MTGO because its easier to fit in my schedule, and I'm fine with the costs sunk.
I know I'm off-topic, but I need to defend e-books, as someone who's written a few. At least part of what you're paying for is the production cost (cover design and the like), but most of what you're paying for is the author's time and effort. It takes weeks, months, years in some cases (insert George R.R. Martin joke here) to craft those stories. I think it's a good idea for the author to receive some sort of compensation for that time.
You may not be getting something physical, but you're ideally getting a good time, one you can still go back to again and again. Seems fair to me.
I'm more surprised by how many people know about Hearthstone instead of Magic, even more surprised when they say Hearthstone is the best card game in history.
Whatever.
digital ccgs are 61% of the total ccg market. That means mtg, Yugioh,pokemon , duelmasters etc put TOGETHER are only about half of what hearthstone and shadowverse and such do.
Or in other words, digital ccgs overall make twice as much as physical ccgs overall.
Please try to keep the vulgarities down. Consider this a last warning before actual warnings get handed out; vulgarity-laden posts, whether the censor hits them or not, will get hit from this point on. Please try to remain civilized.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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Hmm, I'm really not so sure.
100% (literally every single one) of my friends, including myself, who have played magic since 1993, and some who joined maybe 6 years ago, who all play regularly, attend every tournament in their region, regularly go to fnm, who eat sleep and breathe new deck ideas or tweaks; they all only play paper. None of them, not a single one, has got past the initial stage of "oh, so this is what mtgo is like... Jeez it's a pile of crap".
These are definitely the hardcore demographic. They've stuck with the game through thick and thin, and support the tournament scene and local shops with their consistent involvement and patronage. And none of them can stand mtgo.
Oh and back on page one (different mtgs poster); that summary of what needs to be done to mtgo to "fix" a digital version of magic.... Buddy; It needs to go well beyond graphical improvements! The entire UI is fundamentally wrong, in terms of intuitiveness and utility. I could design a core concept, functionality brief and critical path for a "new mtgo" product in 15 minutes that would be miles better than the heaving-trash-pile they've been flogging and reskinning for a decade or so... I think the main problem is that your average user can't really imagine the alternative, how much easier and better it could be, and for the most part accepts what they are given.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There are always other card games.
And they have in common that they come and go, magic stays and probably will forever, as it isnt coupled to a brand that will vanish (pokemon and heartstone are bound to other franchises that still exist, and as long as people play WoW Heartstone will be a thing, as long as Pokemon games are released it will also be a trading card game ; but its still hard to judge when that is no longer the case, maybe they will stay, maybe not).
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I never played Magic Online and probably never will, as i seek the social Friday Night magic atmosphere in my local game store, thats what i value the most, and its a consistent return to a game that existed for almost my entire life and all people that do the same will stick to the game, leave for some time, and still return and even bring their children to the game.
If they can really capture the game in digital form, it has to be simplified a lot, but in the end, the game is more complex than almost any other TCG that has a digital version, so the step from paper to digital isnt as straight forward as it is for other games.
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The game isn't going to vanish, but it's in decline due to faster, easier to learn and quicker to play games preventing new players from ever stepping into magic. Also, the costs of modern are presenting a problem on a public relations standpoint. Existing players don't have the same confidence in the game that existed a while ago as well. Kind of reminds me of fallen empires days.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
And you know that's exactly what they'll put out... FTP! Packs of cards for $3 that are just 0s and 1s on some server! No thanks.
*hops off soap box
Truth right there. Why I dont buy my books as Ebooks. The profit boost must be insane when you consider there is no actual PRODUCT being shipped, created, stored, or taking up rack space. I work in software and always knew digital was a scam.
That said, I play on MTGO because its easier to fit in my schedule, and I'm fine with the costs sunk.
Spirits
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
wizards needs to set up an online paper store that allows you to purchase singles right from them, leveling out card prices while carefully providing only enough stock to keep brick and mortar card shops in business
MTG is the SECOND biggest tcg by far.
Even now when it is at its peak of peaks it is still behind Yugioh in sales, tournament attendance and cards printed. Quality subjective but the hard numbers had YGO as the market leader.
YGO sells so well Konami is the #1 tcg company on the planet despite it being primarily an arcade/tech company with ONE tcg at all.
YGO has more cards in circulation than us currency.
MTG set its record for tournament attendance and ygo casually DOUBLED it.
MTG is #2 physical tcg and modo is #2 digital tcg (by large margin)
Internationally mtg isn't even wotc's mumber 1 game. wotc Duelmasters is the top game in Japan for example.
Your paying for a game, not a medium. How is ink and paper inherently more valuable than electricity on an account.
The only thing you could really loose is the secondary market,which is filthy cancer for the most part that has had a net negative effect on the game anyway.
It's specifically against the EULA of 99% if not all FTP online games to sell you account and is a bannable offense. How does it hold more value you ask? I can take my paper cards to a store and sell them, I can sell them on eBay, I can sell them to any number online retailers, I can trade them to my friends and other people at card shops. When was the last time you did that with your Hearthstone cards, or your LoL skins? I'm guessing never. Tangible items absolutely hold more value than their digital counter parts.
As for the secondary market. It and the primary market are one and the same, they can cannot and would not exist without the other. The primary market dictates how the secondary market acts and the secondary market effects the primary markets policies. The secondary market is no doubt in a rough patch, which has a lot to do with WotC over printing product, reprinting too much, and the treasures in combination with WotCs current print policy. They will need to correct this eventually or they game will not survive, and you can count on the fact that they will. History has shown, time and time again, when the secondary market of a tcg dies so does the game it's self. Go look at any number of old dead tcgs. There's a reason Magic has survived all these years and it's because wizards is smart and careful with the secondary market, which is the true back bone of any tcg.
Magic has so many viable options competing in formats like modern that deck building competitive decks has become a major time investment in itself. Most players can't hold a candle to the pro player think tanks that have the time to test tons of edge cases and cards, which has led to a higher dependence on pro articles to figure out what is good. This in turn has lead to a massive inbreeding of decks much like how anime went in Japan.
Wizards has been desperately trying to make deck building easier for all players, but in doing so they've also had to sacrifice variety in the process. Not to mention the heavy influence of the competitive scene often renders their attempts at variety pointless.
Digital next hopefully can help in this regard, but outside of a format crunch not much is going to save modern in the long run or frontier. Thankfully sites like this have long running repositories to help with building decks.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I honestly don't think the "death of traditional deck building" is an issue, if anything, it helps the community to have people test and play edge case cards. To me, a broader knowledge base is always a better thing, and that goes with anything in life. I just came back to the game after five years and the first thing I did was start browsing standard cards and filtering on the gatherer and brewing. I never really even looked at popular decks until I started to make my SB. Then I watched SCG and saw Mardu Vehicles. It was almost card for card what I "brewed" minus the black. Point is there's always cards that are better than others, the cream will always rise to the top.
I don't follower modern so I can really speak to its health, but the game store in my town holds Frontier on Wednesday, I was there last night buying some cards and the was like ten people playing, seem pretty solid for a smaller town with a smallish game store (I'm a only couple towns away from you).
But I do agree that a digital Magic game done properly could help ease people that might feel intimidated into the game. Deck building can certainly be a daunting task. If it was a game that's easy to pick up like Hearthstone I could see it helping the paper game in the long run by introducing the game to people that might be interested in the more challenging side of the game.
The issue I'm pointing to is that the player base is letting a small number of people tell a large number of people what is "good" and what is "bad", instead of people making independent choices on cards based upon the deck they are trying to build. Also I probably meant standard instead of modern, but modern does have the issue of buckling under the weight of it's card base, of which frontier will eventually start suffering as well. I actually like frontier, but I'm not going to stand around and say that it isn't going to eventually have the issues modern has.
As for MTG Digital next, the primary advantage Digital Magic has is that everything can effectively have an unlimited print run and they can adjust cards and mechanics on the fly, thereby no-longer requiring bannings on cards. Albeit the paper version of the card will probably be forever condemned.
Thoughts that run through my mind thinking about MTG Digital Next:
1) Are they going to allow card trading? Will they have a turn in system to let people trade x commons for an uncommon, x uncommon for a rare, etc, to prevent the need to go to third party sites and make it so pack openings are the primary way to get cards?
2) Will it support existing formats or a modern 2.0? What sets will be enabled at launch?
3) Will there be game codes to redeem for digital mtg packs?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If the only value is adding its resale potential that makes it better as an investment scam, not a game.
The Secondary market is filth, games are meant to be played not used as a *****ty stock market.
One thing i like about ygo is they actively hate there secondary market and go out of the way to undercut it. When mtg sacrifices things that would make for good game play at the alter of "preserving value" they are valuing the pocketbooks of rich investors and collectors over what would be most fun for the game.
The Secondary market is why we have ***** like the reserve list and full art lands being so scarce. It also makes cracking packs into *****ty lottery tickets.
And?
Still doesn't change the fact that a robust secondary market has direct impact on the popularity of a tcg and vise virsa. Yugioh is a turd of a game, and as you pointed out, actively takes giant dumps on their secondary market. Now the games on its way to grave and its only semi redeeming quality is apparently its app. Look at Pokémon, its secondary market is getting stronger as the game Picks up in popularity.
Like it or not, Magic's strength has a lot to do with how wizards has help mold the secondary market. That's just a fact. The reserve list sucks. But it's a pact, one wizards will always keep. Because when they finally break it, they've lost all trust and reliablilty by going back in their word. Reprinting cards on the reserve list WILL mark paper magics death knell. When you've lost trust you've lost everything. They tell us it's for legal reason but that's a load of bs. It's because they understand what the reserve list really means and aren't blinded by their desire for specific cards.
Wizards is smart (meh, most of the time) when their data tells them the secondary market is actively driving away their player base they'll do something about it.
>Still doesn't change the fact that a robust secondary market has direct impact on the popularity of a tcg and vise virsa. Yugioh is a turd of a game, and as you pointed out, actively takes giant dumps on their secondary market.
Yugioh is literally the most popular card game on the planet and hss been for most of its history. MTG is the best selling its ever been and its STILL second place. Konami is the biggest tcg company in the world with there ome tcg thats basically a side project, thats how big YGO is. It is objectively the most successful tcg in human history. Sales, tournament attendance,multimedia, circulation... its not even close. How exactly does thst work as an example of *****ting on your secondary market naking your game unpopular? If anything, it implies the opposite.(Although I doubt much of a correlation)
Masterpieces literally exist as a scheme to lower the evs of packs and thus cheapen standard by voluntarily taxing the rich ********s who masterpieces are the audience for.
But back to my original point, outside the secondary market, which is bull***** that doesnt affect gameplay, how is paper and ink a better medium for a game than electricity?
Your original point was why it's more valuable, which I feel like I explained my veiws on pretty well. Why it's a better medium is more subjective, I can't speak for everyone. For me personally, I've paid my dues in both paper and digital and here is no real replacement for sitting across from a real person and playing some games, organizing your cards, putting them binders/boxes, making trades, etc. But as I've said before, there's certainly room for both and each have their merits.
As far as yugioh goes, fair enough. I spoke without really looking into it and only spoke on my own personal observations which isn't evidence at all. However, I will say that it's supported by a massively popular cartoon and I'd wager a guess that a lot of the packs sold are to kids that never really get into the game. Same way my 5 year old has some Pokémon cards, he doesn't actually play the game. He saw the cartoon, has some Pokémon toys, saw they had cards, and wanted them. We'll never really know active player count for either game, it's almost impossible to know the real numbers. Ive been to and have seen advertised, hundreds of Magic tournament vs the hand full of yugioh tournaments I've even even heard of. Every card shop I've ever been to (while not many I admit) has had MAYBE one case of yugioh singles for sale, usually zero. But again, this is in the US, not the whole world, and my own personal observations are in no way proof.
At the end of the day a strong secondary market is good for everyone. Magic has had its ups and downs for sure. Always has, always will.
That's not to say that there aren't YGO cards will value, but in the YGO community is has more to do with printings. It's not even alt art, but strictly original print runs. My wife works in a shop that sells YGO singles. A first print run of Blue Eyes White Dragon, last I knew, was around 25 bucks, but it's reprints are a couple of bucks at the most. I assume that is how YGO players pimp their decks, as foils seem to be rampant.
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I know I'm off-topic, but I need to defend e-books, as someone who's written a few. At least part of what you're paying for is the production cost (cover design and the like), but most of what you're paying for is the author's time and effort. It takes weeks, months, years in some cases (insert George R.R. Martin joke here) to craft those stories. I think it's a good idea for the author to receive some sort of compensation for that time.
You may not be getting something physical, but you're ideally getting a good time, one you can still go back to again and again. Seems fair to me.
digital ccgs are 61% of the total ccg market. That means mtg, Yugioh,pokemon , duelmasters etc put TOGETHER are only about half of what hearthstone and shadowverse and such do.
Or in other words, digital ccgs overall make twice as much as physical ccgs overall.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.