Since Jeskai Ascendancy didn't make many ripples in Standard/Modern,
I expect a similarly tepid performance here,
but EDH and casual decks will eat it up.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
This card is the reason why I feel justified in playing Rule of Law, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Curse of exhaustion in every "fair" Commander deck I own that runs white spells. They shut off storm, eliminate all instances of cascade, stops players from casting their deck when they hit their combo and now also prevents shenanigans with this.
Another thought, Mesmeric orb is a hilarious answer to this card.
so... this card is either a big nothing or a format defining one.
it only depends on if the combo deck it will create will be fast and sturdy enough to be oppressive or not.
It simply doesn't work outside of a combo deck, and combo decks don't work unless they're really oppressive.
Once you've hit 5 creatures (cards or tokens) you can cast it for free, then enjoy recasting every time. Since you can tap the new tokens, if one of your 5 original creatures is a mana dork, you'll also get infinite mana.
As long as you have a 0-sum spell-loop, there's lots of no-mana tappers you could use as your creature base that'll auto-win; such as Screeching Sliver, or Blightspeaker, etc.
Honestly, though, my favorite use for this guy is in a Captain Sissay Commander deck... since Sissay can search for this guy.
Turn 4: Commander
Turn 5: Search for paradox engine and play it.
Turn 6: Search for Rhys and play it, untap, search for Saffi and play it, untap, search for Gaddock Teeg and play it, untap, search for next legend/legendary land
That's not magical Christmas Land, either. That's getting 5 mana sources by turn 5. If ANY of that mana comes from mana rocks, you can start on turn 3 and start going for far longer.
The more I think about this, the more nuts it is. This is auto-include in every Sissay deck from here to eternity (or here until ban, at least).
I actually think the turn 4/5 trick is not the way to go, though - there's too many chances for disruption. I think you just play as a normal Sissay deck for a while, and then once you have sufficient mana rocks/dorks and a haste giver (greaves or Thousand-Year Elixir or something), you just win. Play commander -> search Paradox Engine -> search/play Selvala, Heart of the Wilds if you need more mana -> search/play Dragonlord Dromoka for protection -> search/play Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Akroma's Memorial -> search/play more spells till you just win.
It's nuts because that combo is all just stuff that's probably in a Sissay deck anyway. By adding this one card, you can just win on the spot with nothing but a commander and a few generic support cards.
from an edh perspective, you absolutely do not let this thing hit play. ever.
Mostly true. I could see this not seeing play in Stax, especially Stax decks that use Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory, but that's about it. Storm will have a field day with it, as will Animar, Soul of Elements.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Can you guys still see the "B" key on your keyboards or is it just worn off from overuse?
Don't mean to be salty, it just gets exhausting when every alrightish card gets the same "oh god so broken so busted so bannable" treatment.
FWIW this will rarely resolve, rarely not be removed, and even more rarely show up in conjunction with all the other bits and pieces necessary to make it do these crazy things - it's five mana do nothing and I think I'd have an aneurysm before I could come up with anything else under that classification that gets sleeved in any competitive format. Doubling Season sure, but that card is just on a different power level.
For Standard I actually think it has the power to reinvigorate an old archetype that just wasn't quite there yet.
Paradox Engine + Mana Rock + Brain in a jar
This allows you to essentially cast as many spells in one turn as you have converted mana costs that scale.
This allows to beat the inherent disadvantage of the Jar by catching you up with all the spells in one go.
Ideally, there's some kind of payoff spell at the end of the series (7 converted mana cost) to essentially knock out the chain but so far we don't have anything like that. Maybe we will.
At any rate, it's a card that allows for fundamentally broken things, it should not be taken lightly.
As much as I want to enjoy this card, I can't help but compare it to Jeskai Ascendancy. It triggers on casting creatures, and untaps artifacts and creatures, has an easier but more expensive mana cost, but it doesn't loot, and can't be played in multiples for stack shenanigans, it also won't untap man-lands.
We will also have to see how good the Improvise cards are. Convoke (namely Stoke the Flames) was what made the Ascendancy tick.
Did not want to splash blue for intruder alarm so this is perfect.
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11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
You need to get Priest, and probably Spine to stick for a turn, or have boatloads of mana, but it's infinite Vindicate. Add Shimmer Myr/Vedalken Orrery for funsies and blow up the board in response to things if you so wish.
Since Jeskai Ascendancy didn't make many ripples in Standard/Modern,
I expect a similarly tepid performance here,
but EDH and casual decks will eat it up.
Uh, Ascendancy with Treasure Cruise with absolutely degenerate in Modern pre banning. and it still puts up showings(although not Top 8 obviously)while being a solid deck. What's funny is this TRIGGERS Ascendancy, and then give double triggers afterwards.
I get that "dies to Doom Blade" (I know, Paradox Engine doesn't, it's just a saying, let's not be pedantic) isn't the strongest argument against a card's validity but I've had artifact EDHs from Arcum Dagsson to Breya, Etherium Shaper and I've never pined for a card like this because if ever I'm going to cheat out or hardcast a big rock like this, I'm just going to do Darksteel Forge, Wurmcoil Engine, Blightsteel Colossus, Mycosynth Lattice, Unwinding Clock, Kudoltha Forgemaster, Mindslaver, etc., etc., - all of which are strictly better because they do things to impact the table - if your argument is that this comes only after all of it's superior playmates then you're theorizing a deck where you can have all of those artifacts out and still need help, and that's a sad deck.
Paradox Engine requires the mana or a method to cheat it out, an efficiently costed follow-up, a suite of mana rocks and tappables that are situation relevant, and then ANOTHER follow-up that makes good use of the mana or tappables that you've freed up, in order to do good things. Welcome to Christmasland!
Intruder Alarm is more broken than Paradox Engine IMO, even with permanents over creatures. "Cast a spell" can be a tricky restriction to break, especially in comparison to "comes into play".
Intruder Alarm is more broken than Paradox Engine IMO, even with permanents over creatures. "Cast a spell" can be a tricky restriction to break, especially in comparison to "comes into play".
That
And It's pretty close to Doubling season catergory strength cards
That's why I'm going to pre-order both this and the planar bridge (normal versions Ofcoarse.
I get that "dies to Doom Blade" (I know, Paradox Engine doesn't, it's just a saying, let's not be pedantic) isn't the strongest argument against a card's validity but I've had artifact EDHs from Arcum Dagsson to Breya, Etherium Shaper and I've never pined for a card like this because if ever I'm going to cheat out or hardcast a big rock like this, I'm just going to do Darksteel Forge, Wurmcoil Engine, Blightsteel Colossus, Mycosynth Lattice, Unwinding Clock, Kudoltha Forgemaster, Mindslaver, etc., etc., - all of which are strictly better because they do things to impact the table - if your argument is that this comes only after all of it's superior playmates then you're theorizing a deck where you can have all of those artifacts out and still need help, and that's a sad deck.
Paradox Engine requires the mana or a method to cheat it out, an efficiently costed follow-up, a suite of mana rocks and tappables that are situation relevant, and then ANOTHER follow-up that makes good use of the mana or tappables that you've freed up, in order to do good things. Welcome to Christmasland!
Again, I'm rarely this salty - it's just that the community really harms itself with the whole "busted, busted, busted" narrative.
or its a thing that hits play after you've got all your rocks out and you go oops capsize!
really not too difficult to pull of absurdity with this thing.
you're not dropping this thing and then waiting, you're playing it once you have rocks and things to do with them, dorks and ways to win with them, or just something stupid that taps and does something a bunch.
why do we so often see these powerful cards and then make up some scenario where its magical christmas land to be effective? i saw the same sorts of things with panharmonicon, yet every single game where it hits play the game is pretty much over because of how absurd it is with everything else.
is it format warping like sylvan primordial, or primeval titan? well no. not at all.
does it pretty much ensure a loss if you let it stick around in ANY deck thats put itself in a position to use it? absolutely yes.
thats why people are saying busted.
edit: and, you don't even need to cheat it out. if you're running things that interact with it you can vomit it, and things to do with it, out in a single turn no problem.
Intruder alarm locks you into a color that has crappy creatures that do nothing with it usually while this goes in anything and can easily go infinite with isochron scepter + manamorphse and other good cards like candelabra in legacy high tide means that high tide has basically infinite mana as untapping all your candles every spell you cast means you're tacking a turnabout onto every spell, which means you gain mana essentially with tide active. This card is very easy to break. Casting spells is one of the most done things in magic. Just look at snapcaster mage. Pretty easy to abuse this, whereas intruder alarm has never done anything absurdly broken in all the time we've had it in constructed whereas this has a solid chance.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
2U is getting "locked into a color" now…Good God people are doing all kinds of cognitive gymnastics to make Paradox Engine seem more playable than it's going to end up being.
Intruder Alarm is more broken than Paradox Engine IMO, even with permanents over creatures. "Cast a spell" can be a tricky restriction to break, especially in comparison to "comes into play".
Not when you have 0-drops to create free triggers. Or easily recastable spells like Isochron Scepter and Elite Arcanist give you. Strionic Resonator also has combo potential; you only need one spell to set off the combo. Basalt Monolith really benefits from the Engine as you no longer have to pay for its untap cost. Same goes for Mana Vault.
At any rate, we also will need to see what other cards will be arriving in AER and Amonkhet block that might combo with the Engine. We know for a fact that AER has twocreatures that can give the Engine itself a tap ability; even without a looping combo, being able to draw cards or shock stuff equal to the number of spells you have to cast can easily be a big deal.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
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Since Jeskai Ascendancy didn't make many ripples in Standard/Modern,
I expect a similarly tepid performance here,
but EDH and casual decks will eat it up.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Another thought, Mesmeric orb is a hilarious answer to this card.
it only depends on if the combo deck it will create will be fast and sturdy enough to be oppressive or not.
It simply doesn't work outside of a combo deck, and combo decks don't work unless they're really oppressive.
I don't like cards like this, really.
Once you've hit 5 creatures (cards or tokens) you can cast it for free, then enjoy recasting every time. Since you can tap the new tokens, if one of your 5 original creatures is a mana dork, you'll also get infinite mana.
As long as you have a 0-sum spell-loop, there's lots of no-mana tappers you could use as your creature base that'll auto-win; such as Screeching Sliver, or Blightspeaker, etc.
The more I think about this, the more nuts it is. This is auto-include in every Sissay deck from here to eternity (or here until ban, at least).
I actually think the turn 4/5 trick is not the way to go, though - there's too many chances for disruption. I think you just play as a normal Sissay deck for a while, and then once you have sufficient mana rocks/dorks and a haste giver (greaves or Thousand-Year Elixir or something), you just win. Play commander -> search Paradox Engine -> search/play Selvala, Heart of the Wilds if you need more mana -> search/play Dragonlord Dromoka for protection -> search/play Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Akroma's Memorial -> search/play more spells till you just win.
It's nuts because that combo is all just stuff that's probably in a Sissay deck anyway. By adding this one card, you can just win on the spot with nothing but a commander and a few generic support cards.
Combine it with... just about anything and it gets really silly.
Mostly true. I could see this not seeing play in Stax, especially Stax decks that use Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory, but that's about it. Storm will have a field day with it, as will Animar, Soul of Elements.
It actually goes infinite with Strionic Resonator and, take your pick: Gilded Lotus, Elvish Aberration, Cryptolith Rite, Earthcraft, Basalt Monolith, Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, Viridian Joiner, Gyre Sage, Thran Dynamo, Karametra's Acolyte, Elvish Archdruid...
Basically it works like this:
If you have another artifact or creature with a t ability that you want to go infinite, you can also use all the "bad Sol Ring" variants (Kozilek's Channeler, Palladium Myr, Ur-Golem's Eye, Sisay's Ring) or Argothian Elder.
On phasing:
Don't mean to be salty, it just gets exhausting when every alrightish card gets the same "oh god so broken so busted so bannable" treatment.
FWIW this will rarely resolve, rarely not be removed, and even more rarely show up in conjunction with all the other bits and pieces necessary to make it do these crazy things - it's five mana do nothing and I think I'd have an aneurysm before I could come up with anything else under that classification that gets sleeved in any competitive format. Doubling Season sure, but that card is just on a different power level.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Paradox Engine + Mana Rock + Brain in a jar
This allows you to essentially cast as many spells in one turn as you have converted mana costs that scale.
This allows to beat the inherent disadvantage of the Jar by catching you up with all the spells in one go.
Ideally, there's some kind of payoff spell at the end of the series (7 converted mana cost) to essentially knock out the chain but so far we don't have anything like that. Maybe we will.
At any rate, it's a card that allows for fundamentally broken things, it should not be taken lightly.
We will also have to see how good the Improvise cards are. Convoke (namely Stoke the Flames) was what made the Ascendancy tick.
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
Did not want to splash blue for intruder alarm so this is perfect.
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
You need to get Priest, and probably Spine to stick for a turn, or have boatloads of mana, but it's infinite Vindicate. Add Shimmer Myr/Vedalken Orrery for funsies and blow up the board in response to things if you so wish.
Uh, Ascendancy with Treasure Cruise with absolutely degenerate in Modern pre banning. and it still puts up showings(although not Top 8 obviously)while being a solid deck. What's funny is this TRIGGERS Ascendancy, and then give double triggers afterwards.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Paradox Engine requires the mana or a method to cheat it out, an efficiently costed follow-up, a suite of mana rocks and tappables that are situation relevant, and then ANOTHER follow-up that makes good use of the mana or tappables that you've freed up, in order to do good things. Welcome to Christmasland!
Blightsteel Colossus requires a Key to the City. Paradox Engine is too slow and inconvenient for a competitive deck and too janky for a casual deck. It'll go sit with Mirror Gallery, Conjurer's Closet and the rest, I'm sorry to say it, but that's what happens.
Again, I'm rarely this salty - it's just that the community really harms itself with the whole "busted, busted, busted" narrative.
That
And It's pretty close to Doubling season catergory strength cards
That's why I'm going to pre-order both this and the planar bridge (normal versions Ofcoarse.
or its a thing that hits play after you've got all your rocks out and you go oops capsize!
really not too difficult to pull of absurdity with this thing.
you're not dropping this thing and then waiting, you're playing it once you have rocks and things to do with them, dorks and ways to win with them, or just something stupid that taps and does something a bunch.
why do we so often see these powerful cards and then make up some scenario where its magical christmas land to be effective? i saw the same sorts of things with panharmonicon, yet every single game where it hits play the game is pretty much over because of how absurd it is with everything else.
is it format warping like sylvan primordial, or primeval titan? well no. not at all.
does it pretty much ensure a loss if you let it stick around in ANY deck thats put itself in a position to use it? absolutely yes.
thats why people are saying busted.
edit: and, you don't even need to cheat it out. if you're running things that interact with it you can vomit it, and things to do with it, out in a single turn no problem.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Not when you have 0-drops to create free triggers. Or easily recastable spells like Isochron Scepter and Elite Arcanist give you. Strionic Resonator also has combo potential; you only need one spell to set off the combo. Basalt Monolith really benefits from the Engine as you no longer have to pay for its untap cost. Same goes for Mana Vault.
At any rate, we also will need to see what other cards will be arriving in AER and Amonkhet block that might combo with the Engine. We know for a fact that AER has two creatures that can give the Engine itself a tap ability; even without a looping combo, being able to draw cards or shock stuff equal to the number of spells you have to cast can easily be a big deal.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.