I stopped following Maro's blog as it gave me itches, so I didn't know about that new scale. He should at least know that Serra's Realm and Rath don't exist anymore, shouldn't he? eel, I suppose he doesn't really care.
He does know that, and he's addressed it, but I suppose you don't really care.
People forget Kamigawa failed on almost every metric, sure limited was kind of fun but it was underpowered, the gameplay didnt capture the flavor, the mechanics were poorly designed for the format, it had nezt to zero standard impact. Its literal only saving grace was its flavor which ironically still became a minus becasue its flavor was super obscure.
Like if they did return to kamigawa they would have to change almost everything becasue almost everything in it rightfully sucked. And if the only thing Kamigawa 2 would keep is top down japan, then why not make a new japan set instead of Kamigawa on name only?
What could you even put into kamigawa 2? Splice onto arcane was parasitic bull, Bushido had no samurai flavor (they like fighting? so do most of our creatures, they FIGHT) the shinto tribal races were all too obscure,a legends matters theme is impossoble to execute properly, the war between the factions wasn't reflected in gameplay, there was a pointless hand size matters theme it gave us two cancerous artifacts....
Basically Ninjas and Epic Spells are the only mechanics that are even in the running for a return and the top down flavor the very CORE of the concept would have to be gutted to just "japan".
What is the point of a return when only 10% would actually get returned to and the rest would be new.
Just make a new japan plane like how Innistrad replaced Ulgotha as the gothic horror plane
And everything you mentioned is judging Kamigawa in situ, from the little bubble when it first appeared. No one cares now that it was underpowered for standard decades ago. A fair share of Kamigawa fans don't even care about current standard, period, for that matter. No one cares the mechanics weren't great for standard or drafting because no one is drafting the set or playing 2004 standard that wants to return there. No one expects a return to Kamigawa will repeat those mistakes again and returning to Kamigawa does not mean replicating those mistakes and nothing else.
Making a new Japan World would be terrible. I like there being unique worlds. Two similar worlds makes planes as a whole less unique. Why should we care about Innistrad if there are other Gothic Horror worlds? Why bother liking anything?
Kamigawa's physical geography, its unique races (such as Soratami and Nezumi, Kitsune, Orochi) and Ninjas and Samurai all should be salvaged. Maintain those as the foundation and literally fill the entire plane with Japanese tropes and it works as Kamigawa AND Japan World. With the Kami war over and millennia passed, it's only understandable that Shinto is no longer the focus, but physical Kamigawa as feudal Japan World would be. What you're basically saying is if we got a card like "Ninja of Minamo" that had Ninjitsu, featured the Kamitaki falls in the background of its art and felt very Japanese that what - it would be horribly received because not enough of Kamigawa's cards had an impact on standard in 2004 when it followed up the most broken MTG set in history? Give me a break dude.
I don't know, Spirit/Arcane matters as a concept is deep enough to revisit, as is Ninjutsu. The problem wasn't in all of the mechanics as individuals, but that they didn't play well with each other. Furthermore, Kamigawa was one of the first HUGE attempts by WotC to do what they are doing know with Cards and the Story, and it did it fairly amiably(although without the marketing/writing team they have now doing Magic Story which would've helped tremendously) Lastly, I think as long as they keep the "Spirit Realm Feudal Japan" theme going with the tribes in tact(Nezumi, Ogre, Akki, Moonfolk, Monk) etc, it could do very well in a modern printing/rebranding.
Bingo. And frankly, even without a full fledged creative/marketing/writing team Kamigawa really set the precedent for the present story marketing model, which has been highly successful. Since Kamigawa we've seen the emergence of Vorthos, story cards, casual formats such as Commander (which highlights Kamigawa considerably) and so on. Things have changed since judging a set based solely on its impact on standard. Let alone Kamigawa being the first time WOTC attempted collecting and evaluating data on design. Kamigawa was the Guinea pig of that model too. Let alone this information being over a decade old now. It doesn't take much to salvage what is good about Kamigawa and use it as a scaffold for a Japan World that is still Kamigawa. I don't see how making an entirely new waterfall and giving it a new name is somehow going to improve upon the public's perception of Blue-based Wizard cards, when they could simply be from Minamo and feature the Kamitaki falls as the mana source and in the art. People act like everything about Kamigawa plagues anything its associated with, when all of its downfalls relate nothing with the high points everyone demanding a return is expecting to have salvaged.
Whatever. I don't care if WOTC and everyone are going to continue insisting that 2004 standard is why Kamigawa will always fail and we never return there. Print the remaining story characters as cards - notably Choryu, O-Kagachi, Kyodai, Pearl-Earl, Sharp-Ear, Riko and Kobo as cards and I'm fine with whatever. As a Vorthos I like my story cycles complete. Then feel free to trash the flavor of a plane based on R&D's shortcomings from 12 years ago.
People forget Kamigawa failed on almost every metric, sure limited was kind of fun but it was underpowered, the gameplay didnt capture the flavor, the mechanics were poorly designed for the format, it had nezt to zero standard impact. Its literal only saving grace was its flavor which ironically still became a minus becasue its flavor was super obscure.
Like if they did return to kamigawa they would have to change almost everything becasue almost everything in it rightfully sucked. And if the only thing Kamigawa 2 would keep is top down japan, then why not make a new japan set instead of Kamigawa on name only?
What could you even put into kamigawa 2? Splice onto arcane was parasitic bull, Bushido had no samurai flavor (they like fighting? so do most of our creatures, they FIGHT) the shinto tribal races were all too obscure,a legends matters theme is impossoble to execute properly, the war between the factions wasn't reflected in gameplay, there was a pointless hand size matters theme it gave us two cancerous artifacts....
Basically Ninjas and Epic Spells are the only mechanics that are even in the running for a return and the top down flavor the very CORE of the concept would have to be gutted to just "japan".
What is the point of a return when only 10% would actually get returned to and the rest would be new.
Just make a new japan plane like how Innistrad replaced Ulgotha as the gothic horror plane
I think they can salvage the best of the set - interesting legendaries, legends at uncommon, fun lands, ninjutsu - and put it on a new plane. The rest you're spot on with, and it can go in a Garbage Fire
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I'd much rather see them try to revamp Kamigawa than make a new Japanese plane, but this is partially because I'm worried that new "Japanese" plane will just mean "Ninjas and Samurais the plane", which is an absolutely abhorrent plane idea, and is barely Japanese. Kamigawa has some original concepts, but as a general rule it feels Japanese, so I really can't imagine what they hope to get out of a Japanese plane when their current one is pretty spot on.
And I'm really excited for the new set if that does come to light. I sincerely doubt they'd make a fake set that hints at something people are interested in just for the sake of a survey, they could easily have used old stuff if that's what they wanted.
I stopped following Maro's blog as it gave me itches, so I didn't know about that new scale. He should at least know that Serra's Realm and Rath don't exist anymore, shouldn't he? eel, I suppose he doesn't really care.
He does know that, and he's addressed it, but I suppose you don't really care.
Like if they did return to kamigawa they would have to change almost everything becasue almost everything in it rightfully sucked. And if the only thing Kamigawa 2 would keep is top down japan, then why not make a new japan set instead of Kamigawa on name only?
Alternatively, they could just rename Kamigawa and present it as a new Japan set at first, then reveal through the plot that it was Kamigawa all along, but thousands of years after the end of the Kami War or whatever. I don't know the details of the story, but apparently the daughter of Konda fused with the daughter of this thing, becoming the "Sisters of Flesh and Spirit" and proceeding to reshape how magic works on the plane, so it should be essentially a whole different world from the Kamigawa we once knew. Moreover, Kamigawa means "river of the gods" or something like that, and since the gods aren't the central point of the story anymore, here we have another reason to rebrand the plane. It could also help disassociating the product from the bad publicity that the name Kamigawa carries, if that's still a problem.
Basically Ninjas and Epic Spells are the only mechanics that are even in the running for a return and the top down flavor the very CORE of the concept would have to be gutted to just "japan".
Most of the tribes weren't that interesting, in my opinion. Only the Soratami and the Ninjas are actually memorable, both in-game and lore-wise, as can be attested partially by the popularity of Tamiyo. Nezumi, Orochi, etc were new and all of that but I think they failed to flesh them out adequately. And yeah, the flavor for Samurai/Bushido was little more than Japanese knights with Japanese inspired flanking. Bushido could have been all sorts of combat triggered abilities, contrasting with Ninjutsu (that activates by not engaging in combat), yet they went with the easy but boring +X/+X until end of turn.
But I will say RTR is a return done right, regardless of my personal feelings toward Ravnica. Objectively speaking, it was good - was true to the original block but delivered modern twists and intriguing updates to the setting.
It wasn't true at all. Most if not each guild was completely simplified in their philosophy. Selesnya are no longer a brainwashing cult. Just a bunch of peaceful hippies. Boros are no longer policemen, this is now the job of the Azorious for no other reason than to dillute their straight control identity into tempo. Why did the Boros just allow that? This was their role on the plane. They are completely obsolete now. Dimir make no sense at all. They have public services? Why would anyone allow this after what happened in the original Ravnica? Or atleast keep control on them? Oh and they are secretly working behind the scenes even though everyone knows they are around (what a twist!). Their mechanic is boring and about creatures attacking because that's cool now I guess? Orzhovs are literally a clear cut mafia organization, cackling with glee as they rip people off. I think Wotc forgot what that religion part was supposed to be. People didn't go and pay money to priests for absolution because they got scammed or forced. But because they believed they would go to heaven. Orzhov could be mono black in RtR, with no problems. Their mechanic is just boring. Reading Maros columns on guild philosophy and identity on the original block is completely different than what they did now.
RtR features mostly boring mechanics related to creatures and combat. Some completely terrible art, and some art that is clearly from Innistrad (who cares about that as long as we save some money!). Ignores world-building from previous set for marketing reasons. No merfolks on the plane? Just invent an undiscovered ocean... Oh and the merfolks also introduce an environmental agenda, which is now a top priority for the Simic because reasons. Previous dragons besides Niv-Mizzet are a hunted dragon and a chained pit dragon, because Dragons are believed extinct? Who cares, just print the obligatory mythic dragon in two sets. Where are the Moroii? It was established they were the agents of Dimir. The only ''generic'' vampire we saw was Szadek. Here we have a bunch of generic vampires all over the place, just because vampires are a ''race'' on every plane now. Too many cards with a straight up jungle in their backgrounds. Also not enough slavic names and references. Story was terrible. The plane was just a placeholder to insert Jace into it, and combine their most popular plane with their most popular walker for marketing purposes. The resolution was completely dumb, and as it turns completely pointless. Since Jace can just leave Ravnica at will with no consequences the Guildpact becomes meaningless. But who cares, because when we get the inevitable Ravnica 3.0 none of these things will matter because all that matters is the Ravnica name. The setting will become even more dumbed down and generic.
That's not to say RtR is a terrible set. I enjoyed it, and it certainly beats some horrendous sets from recent history. But there was no reason for it to be made. No reason for it to be called Ravnica, except for nostalgia and brand recognition. The original block was the pinnacle of Wizards creativity. The design and worldbuilding was the best they have ever done. The new one is boring, and completely changes some things for no reason other than marketing. It just has no soul.
I really hate it when Wizards makes a new plane when using an older one would have sufficed. For example, Theros vs Arkhos and Tarkir vs Mongseng. I'd rather not have any Japan world than have them make another one.
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I really hate it when Wizards makes a new plane when using an older one would have sufficed. For example, Theros vs Arkhos and Tarkir vs Mongseng. I'd rather not have any Japan world than have them make another one.
Monseng and Arkhos became Tarkir and Theros- they would still have the name if not for business reasons about naming.
And there's a valid reason not to use Kamigawa- to divorce the new set from expectations of bad things from some people and expectations from others of things that wouldn't be in the set.
It's possible we will see Kamigawa again, anyway. It's just not likely.
All the arguments Tiro makes above has been made by Kamigawa fans for nearly a decade. These are all well known by fans and Wizards. There is very, very likely not going to be a return to Kamigawa, exactly for the reasons spelled out JimHarbor. The set didn't work.
Like green frogs on twitter, Kamigawa fans are a loud minority - yet on forums like these they make it appear that they constitute a majority.
But why. That is the question. Why return to a plane where so little was liked when there are countless other planes that have many liked. Kamigawa isnt in a vacuum it competes with its slot for every set that hasnt had a recent return and every new set concept. Sure Marvel COULD revisit Heroes reborn or one more day and do it better, but why when that energy could be expended on doing something NOT with a massive handicap .
Out of the three kamiagaa blocks, its KEY elements (like Zendikar's lands, Innistrads transforming and horror tropes, Ravnica's guilds) were overwhelmingly LOATHED and didn't function design wise.
You cant do legends matters, you can't do shinto, you can't do splice onto arcane, you can't do hand size matters.... A return to kamigawa is working off returnable material so thin it would have to be Kamigawa in name only.
Like imagine Ravnica 2 with no guilds and no city, Scars with no artifacts, Zendikar with no allies or lands matters or hedrons, Innistrad with no Zombies, Werewolves,Vampores and Ghosts and no dfc... when CORE mechanical and flavor aspects of your set were massive failures, a return becomes untenable becasue returns require you to utilize the beloved aspects of the original and kamigawa almost has NONE of them. Ninjitusu is its only tely good mechanic and notice how that actually returned supplementally, but you csnt build a return set around one returning mechanic.
All the arguments Tiro makes above has been made by Kamigawa fans for nearly a decade. These are all well known by fans and Wizards. There is very, very likely not going to be a return to Kamigawa, exactly for the reasons spelled out JimHarbor. The set didn't work.
Like green frogs on twitter, Kamigawa fans are a loud minority - yet on forums like these they make it appear that they constitute a majority.
Hmm I'm not so sure.
I played standard and limited back during kamigawa and the main concern at the time was power level (and insular mechanics but that's a superficial concern, kind of tied into everyone's perspective of power level). That was basically it. It wasn't a homelands style disaster, as some people on here are vehemently suggesting. It wasn't a disaster on all fronts. It was just book-ended by more powerful blocks.
That alone may have soured people's tastes of the block, and encouraged them to look elsewhere to find fault. I clearly remember at the time, it became something of an in-joke and people went a bit over the top with the Kamigawa hate, when really it wasn't needed or accurate. In the years since then, that rhetoric from the time has become somewhat crystallised and the sort of "burn the witch" nitpicking has merged into the actual, legit complaints with Kamigawa block. There's a lot of false-hindsight bashing happening, truly.
There's no real reason why they shouldn't revisit Kamigawa. It gave us some of the most iconic cards in recent magic history, and it had an unusual (for the time) focus on legendary creatures. It also paved the way for the modern design ethos which has become so successful. We need to look back on Kamigawa with fresh ideas, rather than with the same old re-hashed "let's have a hate on Kamigawa competition".
The set has its individual detractors and supporters. I'm neither of those. I just recognise that some of the more commonly used language is lazy, rather than proper criticism.
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While it is true you can't do Splice onto Arcane they could do Splice onto Sorcery/Instant which is something that makes a lot more sense. Splice itself wasn't the issue, it was the Arcane part that was the problem.
But I will say RTR is a return done right, regardless of my personal feelings toward Ravnica. Objectively speaking, it was good - was true to the original block but delivered modern twists and intriguing updates to the setting.
It wasn't true at all. Most if not each guild was completely simplified in their philosophy. Selesnya are no longer a brainwashing cult. Just a bunch of peaceful hippies. Boros are no longer policemen, this is now the job of the Azorious for no other reason than to dillute their straight control identity into tempo. Why did the Boros just allow that? This was their role on the plane. They are completely obsolete now. Dimir make no sense at all. They have public services? Why would anyone allow this after what happened in the original Ravnica? Or atleast keep control on them? Oh and they are secretly working behind the scenes even though everyone knows they are around (what a twist!). Their mechanic is boring and about creatures attacking because that's cool now I guess? Orzhovs are literally a clear cut mafia organization, cackling with glee as they rip people off. I think Wotc forgot what that religion part was supposed to be. People didn't go and pay money to priests for absolution because they got scammed or forced. But because they believed they would go to heaven. Orzhov could be mono black in RtR, with no problems. Their mechanic is just boring. Reading Maros columns on guild philosophy and identity on the original block is completely different than what they did now.
RtR features mostly boring mechanics related to creatures and combat. Some completely terrible art, and some art that is clearly from Innistrad (who cares about that as long as we save some money!). Ignores world-building from previous set for marketing reasons. No merfolks on the plane? Just invent an undiscovered ocean... Oh and the merfolks also introduce an environmental agenda, which is now a top priority for the Simic because reasons. Previous dragons besides Niv-Mizzet are a hunted dragon and a chained pit dragon, because Dragons are believed extinct? Who cares, just print the obligatory mythic dragon in two sets. Where are the Moroii? It was established they were the agents of Dimir. The only ''generic'' vampire we saw was Szadek. Here we have a bunch of generic vampires all over the place, just because vampires are a ''race'' on every plane now. Too many cards with a straight up jungle in their backgrounds. Also not enough slavic names and references. Story was terrible. The plane was just a placeholder to insert Jace into it, and combine their most popular plane with their most popular walker for marketing purposes. The resolution was completely dumb, and as it turns completely pointless. Since Jace can just leave Ravnica at will with no consequences the Guildpact becomes meaningless. But who cares, because when we get the inevitable Ravnica 3.0 none of these things will matter because all that matters is the Ravnica name. The setting will become even more dumbed down and generic.
That's not to say RtR is a terrible set. I enjoyed it, and it certainly beats some horrendous sets from recent history. But there was no reason for it to be made. No reason for it to be called Ravnica, except for nostalgia and brand recognition. The original block was the pinnacle of Wizards creativity. The design and worldbuilding was the best they have ever done. The new one is boring, and completely changes some things for no reason other than marketing. It just has no soul.
Ok, I see that you are a bit bitter about the last handling of Ravnica, but let's be a bit more rational here, ok? First of all, the guilds had lost much of their presence in Agents of Artifice because the nonmagic Guildpact couldn't keep them together. When they returned many guilds saw the opportunity to overstep the boundaries previously enforced by the Guildpact: The Azorius took partial control of the executive branch previously held by the Boros (but not total), the Dimir infiltrated public services (they didn't openly control the libraries etc. they overtook, it was only rumored that they did), the Selesnya spread their influence (and where does it say they aren't still brainwashing? RtR has the same amount of references to that than the original block did (the silent man where of course disbanded after the catastrophe they caused)) the Boros became more of a paramilitary force etc. The Orzhov are the mafia, they always were. Even in the original block they make perfectly clear that they are only interested in the enrichment of their aristocratic families. Money for them IS the religion (see the Guilpact novel) and every other aspect of it was always a front. The Simic didn't even really exist anymore after Dissension, so when the merfolk reappeared (something I personally have no problem with, it reminds me of the lost oceans beneath the galactic empires main planet Thrantor in the Foundation cycle of Asimov) they took over the rest of the guild and had no problem in changing their whole doctrine drastically because there was no one capable of challenging them. They are not even really environmentalists, they are holists (otherwise they wouldn't continue using biomantic genetic engineering). I think in some respects guilds became more complicated instead of simplified. In the original block the Rakdos for example were little more than chaotic, savage BDSM fanatics, here we finally see their relevance for the city, providing entertainment in many different forms (also slave labor). The same is true for many of the other guilds. Most of the additions to the guilds added not removed unique qualities to them.
The dragons are imperfect clones or specimen of the Izzet mostly, they are NOT the same race of hyperintelligent dragons that Niv stems from. I give you the Vampires, those really are strange. Szadek wasn't generic, he didn't drink blood but mental energies or something like that.
What do the mechanics of the guilds have to do with the story? And while I personally didn't find the RtR storyline very engaging the goal of it was to reestablish the guildpact, so in the end it really becomes a "Return" to the original Ravnica. I might be in a minority, but there are so many things left hanging in the story of Ravnica that I would really like to see it continued.
I'm not just talking standard I am talking the block from top down.
Its mechanics failed except for Ninjitusu, its legendary theme was a fundamentally unworkable concept, its flavor (a key part of a top down design) went over like a lead balloon and it ove was jusy shoddily designed.
Kamigawa a would be a lot like comdsnap, sure you can polisn a turd, but why do that when you can polish diamonds.
Like who in a meeting would go "we need a 2020 return set" and pick kamigawa over Kaladesh, Tarkir, Theros, Alara, Dominaria, or Ravnica?
The only thing Kamigawa really did well was nailing the shinto vibe in flavor (and even that wasn't reflected in gameplay, compare how scars and Innistrad did the same idea way better) and thats actually a minus becasur super obscure shinto stuff may work for the 1% you blog with but everyone else it may as well have been meaningless.
Top down sets are based on flavor, and if people don't get the themethey cant taste the flavor. Its like selling paintings to the blind, the small fraction who can actually enjoy it isnt worth wasting your time with every one else.
This thread has veered from the discussion of the upcoming plane to a discussion on Kamigawa. I will weigh in on both.
- Atlazan: This is likely to be the art for the block after Amonkhet, but could very easily be a bogus name. This was for a packaging survey. We cannot determine what kind of block this will be, but Mesoamerican seems possible to me. I don't see anything that suggests it is Ravnica. I also think it is possible that this is old unused commissioned art. We can't really determine much from this.
- Kamigawa is not coming back, and arguing about it is a waste of time. Fans don't like it. Vocal enfranchised players want to go back, but go to any FNM and ask and the reaction is extremely negative. Japanese mythology does not resonate with North American or European fan-bases in the same way that Greek and Egyptian mythology resonate. I could believe that the flavour was there, but frankly, I don't know. I can tell you that Theros did a great job because most of the fan-base is familiar with a lot of Greek mythology. They could make a new set with a Japanese influence, like the Indian influence on Kaladesh or the Mongolian theme on Tarkir. Some of the mechanics from Kamigawa, like Ninjitsu, could come back. Rosewater has said we aren't going back. Wizards is doing well with their new planes, so they will be more likely to make a new plane than return to an old one. In 50 years, when they are out of ideas, maybe they will redo top-down Japanese mythology. Until then, stop asking for a return to Kamigawa.
Out of the three kamiagaa blocks, its KEY elements (like Zendikar's lands, Innistrads transforming and horror tropes, Ravnica's guilds) were overwhelmingly LOATHED and didn't function design wise.
You cant do legends matters, you can't do shinto, you can't do splice onto arcane, you can't do hand size matters.... A return to kamigawa is working off returnable material so thin it would have to be Kamigawa in name only.
Well thanks for making my point for me. No one asked for it to be exactly Kamigawa all over again. Do you really believe a return there would be an exact replica of the original set? Was SOI the exact same as Innistrad? No. Not every mechanic returned and not everything was the same. When players ask to return to Kamigawa and use it as a bare foundation for a Japanese inspired world, it is essentially both Kamigawa and a new Japan world. There isn't much about Kamigawa that needs to return in order to hit two of those birds with one stone. Kamigawa's geography, its unique races, Ninjutsu and Bushido. Retain those and everything else can be entirely new, and focused on delivering Japan tropes.
But I'm sure that can't happen, since everyone is assuming everything about Return to Kamigawa would have to replicate, card for card, mechanic for mechanic, the original - when in reality no return has ever done that. And somehow, being disliked in standard 12 years ago is every reason not to return. Lol okay. Kamigawa fans have only asked for it to serve as the basic scaffolding for a Japan World over getting a new one for no reason. It's expected that Kamigawa has changed in the millennia that have passed since the Kami War ended.
Out of the three kamiagaa blocks, its KEY elements (like Zendikar's lands, Innistrads transforming and horror tropes, Ravnica's guilds) were overwhelmingly LOATHED and didn't function design wise.
You cant do legends matters, you can't do shinto, you can't do splice onto arcane, you can't do hand size matters.... A return to kamigawa is working off returnable material so thin it would have to be Kamigawa in name only.
Well thanks for making my point for me. No one asked for it to be exactly Kamigawa all over again. Do you really believe a return there would be an exact replica of the original set? Was SOI the exact same as Innistrad? No. Not every mechanic returned and not everything was the same. When players ask to return to Kamigawa and use it as a bare foundation for a Japanese inspired world, it is essentially both Kamigawa and a new Japan world. There isn't much about Kamigawa that needs to return in order to hit two of those birds with one stone. Kamigawa's geography, its unique races, Ninjutsu and Bushido. Retain those and everything else can be entirely new, and focused on delivering Japan tropes.
But I'm sure that can't happen, since everyone is assuming everything about Return to Kamigawa would have to replicate, card for card, mechanic for mechanic, the original - when in reality no return has ever done that. And somehow, being disliked in standard 12 years ago is every reason not to return. Lol okay. Kamigawa fans have only asked for it to serve as the basic scaffolding for a Japan World over getting a new one for no reason. It's expected that Kamigawa has changed in the millennia that have passed since the Kami War ended.
This. It doesn't have to be a 1:1 copy, but if you're doing a legitimate Japanese-themed plane it should to some extent resemble Kamigawa. If it's so different that it has nothing in common I would question what exactly you're making and if it's really Japanese-themed. Likewise if you're adamantly wanting to avoid Shinto yet you want a plane where the major theme is uniquely Japanese then I'd really like to know what kind of plane you're really expecting to make. Shinto doesn't have to be as dominant as it was in Kamigawa but it's kind of a major Japanese element. Trying to divorce it entirely is just going to leave a fairly hollow plane.
Loving the art, across the board. Very happy to see that Ajani is sticking around. Though if this is true, do you know what the best part is? The fact that it would mean that Ravnica 3 isn't coming after Amonkhet!
One can only hope. Remember Amonkhet came after Kaladesh, so Ravnica 3 could unfortunately come after Atlazan. Vraska could be the lead right into Ravnica 3. And that, of course, would be terrible.
It would be wonderful, we need shock prices to go back down.
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Out of the three kamiagaa blocks, its KEY elements (like Zendikar's lands, Innistrads transforming and horror tropes, Ravnica's guilds) were overwhelmingly LOATHED and didn't function design wise.
You cant do legends matters, you can't do shinto, you can't do splice onto arcane, you can't do hand size matters.... A return to kamigawa is working off returnable material so thin it would have to be Kamigawa in name only.
Well thanks for making my point for me. No one asked for it to be exactly Kamigawa all over again. Do you really believe a return there would be an exact replica of the original set? Was SOI the exact same as Innistrad? No. Not every mechanic returned and not everything was the same. When players ask to return to Kamigawa and use it as a bare foundation for a Japanese inspired world, it is essentially both Kamigawa and a new Japan world. There isn't much about Kamigawa that needs to return in order to hit two of those birds with one stone. Kamigawa's geography, its unique races, Ninjutsu and Bushido. Retain those and everything else can be entirely new, and focused on delivering Japan tropes.
But I'm sure that can't happen, since everyone is assuming everything about Return to Kamigawa would have to replicate, card for card, mechanic for mechanic, the original - when in reality no return has ever done that. And somehow, being disliked in standard 12 years ago is every reason not to return. Lol okay. Kamigawa fans have only asked for it to serve as the basic scaffolding for a Japan World over getting a new one for no reason. It's expected that Kamigawa has changed in the millennia that have passed since the Kami War ended.
This. It doesn't have to be a 1:1 copy, but if you're doing a legitimate Japanese-themed plane it should to some extent resemble Kamigawa. If it's so different that it has nothing in common I would question what exactly you're making and if it's really Japanese-themed. Likewise if you're adamantly wanting to avoid Shinto yet you want a plane where the major theme is uniquely Japanese then I'd really like to know what kind of plane you're really expecting to make. Shinto doesn't have to be as dominant as it was in Kamigawa but it's kind of a major Japanese element. Trying to divorce it entirely is just going to leave a fairly hollow plane.
Exactly. No Return is ever a carbon copy of the original with all of the mechanics returning.
1. Return Ninjitsu and Bushido.
2. Create new, Japanese-favored mechanics, since all returns have new mechanics too. Did INN/AVR have Investigate? No
3. Retain Kamigawa's geography - signature areas. Takenuma swamp. Kamitaki falls/Minamo, Sokenzan mountains, Oboro, etc
4. Use the popular, unique, Japanese-inspired races from Kamigawa - Kitsune, Moonfolk, Nezumi, Orochi etc. but with more of a focus on humans - Ninjas, Samurai, etc. You know, like Tamiyo?
5. Make new characters. Millennia have passed since the Kami War ended. The Shinto worship is there but the Kami are no longer manifesting. So there's no need to make them.
6. Create from that foundation a Japan World that uses the backbone of Kamigawa as its base.
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You give me itches.
Making a new Japan World would be terrible. I like there being unique worlds. Two similar worlds makes planes as a whole less unique. Why should we care about Innistrad if there are other Gothic Horror worlds? Why bother liking anything?
Kamigawa's physical geography, its unique races (such as Soratami and Nezumi, Kitsune, Orochi) and Ninjas and Samurai all should be salvaged. Maintain those as the foundation and literally fill the entire plane with Japanese tropes and it works as Kamigawa AND Japan World. With the Kami war over and millennia passed, it's only understandable that Shinto is no longer the focus, but physical Kamigawa as feudal Japan World would be. What you're basically saying is if we got a card like "Ninja of Minamo" that had Ninjitsu, featured the Kamitaki falls in the background of its art and felt very Japanese that what - it would be horribly received because not enough of Kamigawa's cards had an impact on standard in 2004 when it followed up the most broken MTG set in history? Give me a break dude.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Whatever. I don't care if WOTC and everyone are going to continue insisting that 2004 standard is why Kamigawa will always fail and we never return there. Print the remaining story characters as cards - notably Choryu, O-Kagachi, Kyodai, Pearl-Earl, Sharp-Ear, Riko and Kobo as cards and I'm fine with whatever. As a Vorthos I like my story cycles complete. Then feel free to trash the flavor of a plane based on R&D's shortcomings from 12 years ago.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I think they can salvage the best of the set - interesting legendaries, legends at uncommon, fun lands, ninjutsu - and put it on a new plane. The rest you're spot on with, and it can go in a Garbage Fire
Commander:
Aurelia the Warleader - Combat Tricks and Swarm
Oloro, Ageless Ascetic - Lifegain/Lifedrain Pillowfort
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice - Token Assault
Meren of Clan Nel Toth - Reanimator Value
Mizzix - Out of the Box Spellslinger
Standard:
RB Madness Vamps
Casual:
Formerly Modern Elfball
And I'm really excited for the new set if that does come to light. I sincerely doubt they'd make a fake set that hints at something people are interested in just for the sake of a survey, they could easily have used old stuff if that's what they wanted.
Indeed.
And sorry.
Alternatively, they could just rename Kamigawa and present it as a new Japan set at first, then reveal through the plot that it was Kamigawa all along, but thousands of years after the end of the Kami War or whatever. I don't know the details of the story, but apparently the daughter of Konda fused with the daughter of this thing, becoming the "Sisters of Flesh and Spirit" and proceeding to reshape how magic works on the plane, so it should be essentially a whole different world from the Kamigawa we once knew. Moreover, Kamigawa means "river of the gods" or something like that, and since the gods aren't the central point of the story anymore, here we have another reason to rebrand the plane. It could also help disassociating the product from the bad publicity that the name Kamigawa carries, if that's still a problem.
Most of the tribes weren't that interesting, in my opinion. Only the Soratami and the Ninjas are actually memorable, both in-game and lore-wise, as can be attested partially by the popularity of Tamiyo. Nezumi, Orochi, etc were new and all of that but I think they failed to flesh them out adequately. And yeah, the flavor for Samurai/Bushido was little more than Japanese knights with Japanese inspired flanking. Bushido could have been all sorts of combat triggered abilities, contrasting with Ninjutsu (that activates by not engaging in combat), yet they went with the easy but boring +X/+X until end of turn.
It wasn't true at all. Most if not each guild was completely simplified in their philosophy. Selesnya are no longer a brainwashing cult. Just a bunch of peaceful hippies. Boros are no longer policemen, this is now the job of the Azorious for no other reason than to dillute their straight control identity into tempo. Why did the Boros just allow that? This was their role on the plane. They are completely obsolete now. Dimir make no sense at all. They have public services? Why would anyone allow this after what happened in the original Ravnica? Or atleast keep control on them? Oh and they are secretly working behind the scenes even though everyone knows they are around (what a twist!). Their mechanic is boring and about creatures attacking because that's cool now I guess? Orzhovs are literally a clear cut mafia organization, cackling with glee as they rip people off. I think Wotc forgot what that religion part was supposed to be. People didn't go and pay money to priests for absolution because they got scammed or forced. But because they believed they would go to heaven. Orzhov could be mono black in RtR, with no problems. Their mechanic is just boring. Reading Maros columns on guild philosophy and identity on the original block is completely different than what they did now.
RtR features mostly boring mechanics related to creatures and combat. Some completely terrible art, and some art that is clearly from Innistrad (who cares about that as long as we save some money!). Ignores world-building from previous set for marketing reasons. No merfolks on the plane? Just invent an undiscovered ocean... Oh and the merfolks also introduce an environmental agenda, which is now a top priority for the Simic because reasons. Previous dragons besides Niv-Mizzet are a hunted dragon and a chained pit dragon, because Dragons are believed extinct? Who cares, just print the obligatory mythic dragon in two sets. Where are the Moroii? It was established they were the agents of Dimir. The only ''generic'' vampire we saw was Szadek. Here we have a bunch of generic vampires all over the place, just because vampires are a ''race'' on every plane now. Too many cards with a straight up jungle in their backgrounds. Also not enough slavic names and references. Story was terrible. The plane was just a placeholder to insert Jace into it, and combine their most popular plane with their most popular walker for marketing purposes. The resolution was completely dumb, and as it turns completely pointless. Since Jace can just leave Ravnica at will with no consequences the Guildpact becomes meaningless. But who cares, because when we get the inevitable Ravnica 3.0 none of these things will matter because all that matters is the Ravnica name. The setting will become even more dumbed down and generic.
That's not to say RtR is a terrible set. I enjoyed it, and it certainly beats some horrendous sets from recent history. But there was no reason for it to be made. No reason for it to be called Ravnica, except for nostalgia and brand recognition. The original block was the pinnacle of Wizards creativity. The design and worldbuilding was the best they have ever done. The new one is boring, and completely changes some things for no reason other than marketing. It just has no soul.
A return would require time travel,flashbacks and/or there revival
No, reading this thread will tell you that you are most definitely not.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
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Monseng and Arkhos became Tarkir and Theros- they would still have the name if not for business reasons about naming.
And there's a valid reason not to use Kamigawa- to divorce the new set from expectations of bad things from some people and expectations from others of things that wouldn't be in the set.
It's possible we will see Kamigawa again, anyway. It's just not likely.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Like green frogs on twitter, Kamigawa fans are a loud minority - yet on forums like these they make it appear that they constitute a majority.
Out of the three kamiagaa blocks, its KEY elements (like Zendikar's lands, Innistrads transforming and horror tropes, Ravnica's guilds) were overwhelmingly LOATHED and didn't function design wise.
You cant do legends matters, you can't do shinto, you can't do splice onto arcane, you can't do hand size matters.... A return to kamigawa is working off returnable material so thin it would have to be Kamigawa in name only.
Like imagine Ravnica 2 with no guilds and no city, Scars with no artifacts, Zendikar with no allies or lands matters or hedrons, Innistrad with no Zombies, Werewolves,Vampores and Ghosts and no dfc... when CORE mechanical and flavor aspects of your set were massive failures, a return becomes untenable becasue returns require you to utilize the beloved aspects of the original and kamigawa almost has NONE of them. Ninjitusu is its only tely good mechanic and notice how that actually returned supplementally, but you csnt build a return set around one returning mechanic.
Hmm I'm not so sure.
I played standard and limited back during kamigawa and the main concern at the time was power level (and insular mechanics but that's a superficial concern, kind of tied into everyone's perspective of power level). That was basically it. It wasn't a homelands style disaster, as some people on here are vehemently suggesting. It wasn't a disaster on all fronts. It was just book-ended by more powerful blocks.
That alone may have soured people's tastes of the block, and encouraged them to look elsewhere to find fault. I clearly remember at the time, it became something of an in-joke and people went a bit over the top with the Kamigawa hate, when really it wasn't needed or accurate. In the years since then, that rhetoric from the time has become somewhat crystallised and the sort of "burn the witch" nitpicking has merged into the actual, legit complaints with Kamigawa block. There's a lot of false-hindsight bashing happening, truly.
There's no real reason why they shouldn't revisit Kamigawa. It gave us some of the most iconic cards in recent magic history, and it had an unusual (for the time) focus on legendary creatures. It also paved the way for the modern design ethos which has become so successful. We need to look back on Kamigawa with fresh ideas, rather than with the same old re-hashed "let's have a hate on Kamigawa competition".
The set has its individual detractors and supporters. I'm neither of those. I just recognise that some of the more commonly used language is lazy, rather than proper criticism.
While it is true you can't do Splice onto Arcane they could do Splice onto Sorcery/Instant which is something that makes a lot more sense. Splice itself wasn't the issue, it was the Arcane part that was the problem.
Ok, I see that you are a bit bitter about the last handling of Ravnica, but let's be a bit more rational here, ok? First of all, the guilds had lost much of their presence in Agents of Artifice because the nonmagic Guildpact couldn't keep them together. When they returned many guilds saw the opportunity to overstep the boundaries previously enforced by the Guildpact: The Azorius took partial control of the executive branch previously held by the Boros (but not total), the Dimir infiltrated public services (they didn't openly control the libraries etc. they overtook, it was only rumored that they did), the Selesnya spread their influence (and where does it say they aren't still brainwashing? RtR has the same amount of references to that than the original block did (the silent man where of course disbanded after the catastrophe they caused)) the Boros became more of a paramilitary force etc. The Orzhov are the mafia, they always were. Even in the original block they make perfectly clear that they are only interested in the enrichment of their aristocratic families. Money for them IS the religion (see the Guilpact novel) and every other aspect of it was always a front. The Simic didn't even really exist anymore after Dissension, so when the merfolk reappeared (something I personally have no problem with, it reminds me of the lost oceans beneath the galactic empires main planet Thrantor in the Foundation cycle of Asimov) they took over the rest of the guild and had no problem in changing their whole doctrine drastically because there was no one capable of challenging them. They are not even really environmentalists, they are holists (otherwise they wouldn't continue using biomantic genetic engineering). I think in some respects guilds became more complicated instead of simplified. In the original block the Rakdos for example were little more than chaotic, savage BDSM fanatics, here we finally see their relevance for the city, providing entertainment in many different forms (also slave labor). The same is true for many of the other guilds. Most of the additions to the guilds added not removed unique qualities to them.
The dragons are imperfect clones or specimen of the Izzet mostly, they are NOT the same race of hyperintelligent dragons that Niv stems from. I give you the Vampires, those really are strange. Szadek wasn't generic, he didn't drink blood but mental energies or something like that.
What do the mechanics of the guilds have to do with the story? And while I personally didn't find the RtR storyline very engaging the goal of it was to reestablish the guildpact, so in the end it really becomes a "Return" to the original Ravnica. I might be in a minority, but there are so many things left hanging in the story of Ravnica that I would really like to see it continued.
Its mechanics failed except for Ninjitusu, its legendary theme was a fundamentally unworkable concept, its flavor (a key part of a top down design) went over like a lead balloon and it ove was jusy shoddily designed.
Kamigawa a would be a lot like comdsnap, sure you can polisn a turd, but why do that when you can polish diamonds.
Like who in a meeting would go "we need a 2020 return set" and pick kamigawa over Kaladesh, Tarkir, Theros, Alara, Dominaria, or Ravnica?
The only thing Kamigawa really did well was nailing the shinto vibe in flavor (and even that wasn't reflected in gameplay, compare how scars and Innistrad did the same idea way better) and thats actually a minus becasur super obscure shinto stuff may work for the 1% you blog with but everyone else it may as well have been meaningless.
Top down sets are based on flavor, and if people don't get the themethey cant taste the flavor. Its like selling paintings to the blind, the small fraction who can actually enjoy it isnt worth wasting your time with every one else.
- Atlazan: This is likely to be the art for the block after Amonkhet, but could very easily be a bogus name. This was for a packaging survey. We cannot determine what kind of block this will be, but Mesoamerican seems possible to me. I don't see anything that suggests it is Ravnica. I also think it is possible that this is old unused commissioned art. We can't really determine much from this.
- Kamigawa is not coming back, and arguing about it is a waste of time. Fans don't like it. Vocal enfranchised players want to go back, but go to any FNM and ask and the reaction is extremely negative. Japanese mythology does not resonate with North American or European fan-bases in the same way that Greek and Egyptian mythology resonate. I could believe that the flavour was there, but frankly, I don't know. I can tell you that Theros did a great job because most of the fan-base is familiar with a lot of Greek mythology. They could make a new set with a Japanese influence, like the Indian influence on Kaladesh or the Mongolian theme on Tarkir. Some of the mechanics from Kamigawa, like Ninjitsu, could come back. Rosewater has said we aren't going back. Wizards is doing well with their new planes, so they will be more likely to make a new plane than return to an old one. In 50 years, when they are out of ideas, maybe they will redo top-down Japanese mythology. Until then, stop asking for a return to Kamigawa.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
But I'm sure that can't happen, since everyone is assuming everything about Return to Kamigawa would have to replicate, card for card, mechanic for mechanic, the original - when in reality no return has ever done that. And somehow, being disliked in standard 12 years ago is every reason not to return. Lol okay. Kamigawa fans have only asked for it to serve as the basic scaffolding for a Japan World over getting a new one for no reason. It's expected that Kamigawa has changed in the millennia that have passed since the Kami War ended.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
This. It doesn't have to be a 1:1 copy, but if you're doing a legitimate Japanese-themed plane it should to some extent resemble Kamigawa. If it's so different that it has nothing in common I would question what exactly you're making and if it's really Japanese-themed. Likewise if you're adamantly wanting to avoid Shinto yet you want a plane where the major theme is uniquely Japanese then I'd really like to know what kind of plane you're really expecting to make. Shinto doesn't have to be as dominant as it was in Kamigawa but it's kind of a major Japanese element. Trying to divorce it entirely is just going to leave a fairly hollow plane.
It would be wonderful, we need shock prices to go back down.
Modern
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<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
1. Return Ninjitsu and Bushido.
2. Create new, Japanese-favored mechanics, since all returns have new mechanics too. Did INN/AVR have Investigate? No
3. Retain Kamigawa's geography - signature areas. Takenuma swamp. Kamitaki falls/Minamo, Sokenzan mountains, Oboro, etc
4. Use the popular, unique, Japanese-inspired races from Kamigawa - Kitsune, Moonfolk, Nezumi, Orochi etc. but with more of a focus on humans - Ninjas, Samurai, etc. You know, like Tamiyo?
5. Make new characters. Millennia have passed since the Kami War ended. The Shinto worship is there but the Kami are no longer manifesting. So there's no need to make them.
6. Create from that foundation a Japan World that uses the backbone of Kamigawa as its base.
Welcome to Kamigawa.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||