Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Ridiculous comparing him to Edric. The card is really bad... and the bigegst crime is that they wasted an interesting character like Ludevic. God dammit ill remain salty for some time, already mad that they din't printed Urza as the 4 colored general, most of the legends are mediocre and now they made Ludevic, a hyped character, into a flavour fail trash card.
WotC has one last chance to make a cool Ludevic...when his student, Geralf, stitches his mentor and sister together into something that makes Grimgrin look tame.
Ridiculous comparing him to Edric. The card is really bad... and the bigegst crime is that they wasted an interesting character like Ludevic. God dammit ill remain salty for some time, already mad that they din't printed Urza as the 4 colored general, most of the legends are mediocre and now they made Ludevic, a hyped character, into a flavour fail trash card.
Being salty over Ludevic is warranted, but you can't get salty over Urza. He will never be printed beyond Vanguard because he's simply too broken. It would be on par with printing Yawgmoth. If anything, Wizards could create yet another variant (similar to Archenemy) where it's Urza vs. Yawgmoth or something along those lines. That would be amazing. It would sort of be like Vanguard or Hero's Path where those cards can't really be used elsewhere or in certain game modes. Again, Urza will never be printed in normal play. So, in the mean time, you can gaze upon this:
As for Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist, man, what a bad card. This card is on the same level as Homelands and even then I'd play Daughter of Autumn than Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist. The only pros I see for it is pinging players during your turn so you can draw a card at the end of your turn. And even then, there are way better cards than that. I mean, Fevered Visions is strictly better. Howling Mine is better. Ludevic is just awful. That may clause is what ruins it the most for me. In a Nekusar deck, Ludevic would've found a home. But not even there. I wouldn't have him in the command zone even as a prank.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Ridiculous comparing him to Edric. The card is really bad... and the bigegst crime is that they wasted an interesting character like Ludevic. God dammit ill remain salty for some time, already mad that they din't printed Urza as the 4 colored general, most of the legends are mediocre and now they made Ludevic, a hyped character, into a flavour fail trash card.
Being salty over Ludevic is warranted, but you can't get salty over Urza. He will never be printed beyond Vanguard because he's simply too broken. It would be on par with printing Yawgmoth. If anything, Wizards could create yet another variant (similar to Archenemy) where it's Urza vs. Yawgmoth or something along those lines. That would be amazing. It would sort of be like Vanguard or Hero's Path where those cards can't really be used elsewhere or in certain game modes. Again, Urza will never be printed in normal play. So, in the mean time, you can gaze upon this:
As for Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist, man, what a bad card. This card is on the same level as Homelands and even then I'd play Daughter of Autumn than Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist. The only pros I see for it is pinging players during your turn so you can draw a card at the end of your turn. And even then, there are way better cards than that. I mean, Fevered Visions is strictly better. Howling Mine is better. Ludevic is just awful. That may clause is what ruins it the most for me. In a Nekusar deck, Ludevic would've found a home. But not even there. I wouldn't have him in the command zone even as a prank.
I wanted a pre-walker version of Urza, when he wasn't a planeswalker yet, during the Brothers War. Also i think people are overestimating his power abit, he was never close to Yawgmoth's power(Yawgmoth never printed i can agreed). Urza lost agaisnt Radiance ffs.
Find it kind of irritating that when Kaya was printed no one had to refer to her as "that Black Planeswalker", Narset wasn't "that autistic Planeswalker", or Daretti wasn't "That disabled Planeswalker" but for whatever reason they print these guys and 80% of the time they're referred to as "The Gay Kings" like it's some punchline to a neverending bad joke. It's an interesting thing to be a gay man myself and appreciate the diversity and representation, but ultimately just wanting it to be a normal thing that doesn't require being notable and people not have to be like "Oh but they're the GAY kings".
I don't think Wizards pushed the bar on the Partner legends AT ALL... Most of them feel like a solid Limited rare rather than a Mythic Legendary. Why is WotC always willing to create chase Planeswalkers but never good, or at least complex Legends?
For examle, here is how I would fix Ludevic:
Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist
2UB
Pay 4 life: Discard a card, then draw a card. Activate only as a sorcery. Any player can activate this ability.
Partner
1/3 (I'm not giving him above-average stats if he's actually interesting now)
He's all about experimenting and seeing what will happen- and offers that same ability to your opponents for even more madness. A lot of data to be collected about self-harm, hubris, and a human body's maximum pain tolerance. He oozes red/blue, not just because of the looting but because blue can benefit from refilling it's hand and red can quickly burn out your opponents who get too greedy with the ability. 4 life is probably juuuust enough to be difficult to resist, while it can go up to 5 if it's too strong. If the effect is too absuable by your opponents, you can just leave him in the Command Zone and play with your Partner Commander instead. He also pairs up great with Kraum now hecause your opponents should have plenty of good cards to cast. The only issue is he might be too good with Kydele now, seeing as you can loot like mad then unleash your massive Eldrazi abomination in the Battlefield. On the other hand, you're not white or black so gaining that life back you burn through might be tricky, and Kydele is probably busted no matter what. I made Ludeic cost the same as Kydele just so you couldnt curve the two out.
Ludevic is such a fail. He should not have partner at all, he's a loner mad scientist who should be cloistered in his lab making carzy zombies! I really feel like the partner mechanic in general has been overlooked flavorfully. I get that it was a mechanical solution to four color decks, but the flavor just doesn't feel right. Why not make a Tibor card and a Lumina card, and give them both partner? Or for that matter why not make the gay kings two different cards with partner?! Lol amiright? There are enough characters in magic with a history of working together that they shouldn't be shoe-horning important loner characters onto these cards arbitrarily.
Magic creative likes to put couples together on a single card (See Anax and Cymede, the aforementioned Tibor and Lumia and Pia and Kiran Nalaar). Splitting them up, which it might have worked flavorfully, wouldn't have been in keeping with this trend and they probably wouldn't have wanted to risk earning flack for not presenting the first gay couple in Magic consistently with the others.
Yeah OK so they like to put couples on the same card. All well and good.
But if you come up with a new mechanic for legendary creatures that "Partner" up, that would be the EXACT perfect instance to split those couples up into two cards and partner them. Huge fail on potential there. Agree 1000% with tibor and lumia and the meletis kings getting their own cards with partner. Would have been so flavorful good. Plus others throughout magics past that would fit beautifully with this new mechanic instead of seemingly random 2 color legengs that are supposed to partner up.
And Ludevic is such an epic unacceptable fail on so many points that 100% of the community needs to get on wotc and make sure they don't play this crap again
Ridiculous comparing him to Edric. The card is really bad... and the bigegst crime is that they wasted an interesting character like Ludevic. God dammit ill remain salty for some time, already mad that they din't printed Urza as the 4 colored general, most of the legends are mediocre and now they made Ludevic, a hyped character, into a flavour fail trash card.
Being salty over Ludevic is warranted, but you can't get salty over Urza. He will never be printed beyond Vanguard because he's simply too broken. It would be on par with printing Yawgmoth. If anything, Wizards could create yet another variant (similar to Archenemy) where it's Urza vs. Yawgmoth or something along those lines. That would be amazing. It would sort of be like Vanguard or Hero's Path where those cards can't really be used elsewhere or in certain game modes. Again, Urza will never be printed in normal play. So, in the mean time, you can gaze upon this:
As for Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist, man, what a bad card. This card is on the same level as Homelands and even then I'd play Daughter of Autumn than Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist. The only pros I see for it is pinging players during your turn so you can draw a card at the end of your turn. And even then, there are way better cards than that. I mean, Fevered Visions is strictly better. Howling Mine is better. Ludevic is just awful. That may clause is what ruins it the most for me. In a Nekusar deck, Ludevic would've found a home. But not even there. I wouldn't have him in the command zone even as a prank.
I wanted a pre-walker version of Urza, when he wasn't a planeswalker yet, during the Brothers War. Also i think people are overestimating his power abit, he was never close to Yawgmoth's power(Yawgmoth never printed i can agreed). Urza lost agaisnt Radiance ffs.
I would've rather they not print Urza (able to use every color except G) than they do and mess him up worse than Ludevic.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Find it kind of irritating that when Kaya was printed no one had to refer to her as "that Black Planeswalker", Narset wasn't "that autistic Planeswalker", or Daretti wasn't "That disabled Planeswalker" but for whatever reason they print these guys and 80% of the time they're referred to as "The Gay Kings" like it's some punchline to a neverending bad joke. It's an interesting thing to be a gay man myself and appreciate the diversity and representation, but ultimately just wanting it to be a normal thing that doesn't require being notable and people not have to be like "Oh but they're the GAY kings".
I'm just glad Wizards designed these characters because (as you pointed out, everyone points out that they're gay) but I want to also throw in the mix that they are an interracial couple, as well. I remember a lot of people boycotting Cheerio's because the commercial showed an interracial family. Hopefully this helps further along the ideal of actual tolerance. Even though people are referring to them as the gay kings - and I get what you mean - but so far it hasn't been done disrespectfully. Just saying two kings or dual kings doesn't mean they're necessarily a couple. Maybe referring to them as the king couple is better?
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Find it kind of irritating that when Kaya was printed no one had to refer to her as "that Black Planeswalker", Narset wasn't "that autistic Planeswalker", or Daretti wasn't "That disabled Planeswalker" but for whatever reason they print these guys and 80% of the time they're referred to as "The Gay Kings" like it's some punchline to a neverending bad joke. It's an interesting thing to be a gay man myself and appreciate the diversity and representation, but ultimately just wanting it to be a normal thing that doesn't require being notable and people not have to be like "Oh but they're the GAY kings".
I think to everybody using 'the gay kings' denomination's defense, part of it is because the name of the card is way too long, and their names also. I agree on each of your points though. I just think they should have had names shorter like Pia and Kiran rather than Kinaios and Tiro. Many of us are too lazy to remember a 4 syllables name in a card that we will never play.
That's probably what I think is the worst about this card, it's designed in a way that most players dislike (grouphug) so I think it's a terrible choice for a progressive representation. It should have been a card for a wider audience.
Yeah, I'm not fond of Grouphug either. So that is a major downside to the card. I'm gay and have been campaigning for a card like this for a long time. I'm not too disappointed since they're the Guardians of Meletis and Theros themed, but I do agree that their effect is disappointing. I also understand why they're on the same card and it's valid to treat them as other couple cards and not differently, otherwise the representation might have been called into question. I do feel giving them separate cards with partner would still have been nice though. But regardless I'm happy with them. I just wish they had a different, non-grouphug effect since I can't stand those kinds of decks at all. Or at least gave their controller more of an upside. For example, instead of allowing others to draw, they can each place a land on the battlefield and you draw a card for each opponent that does in addition to the first draw.
I don't mind their names. I call them gay kings as an endearing term. It's because they're on Guardians of Meletis and didn't have names then, but were literally just nameless gay kings. So it's shorter to call them that.
Yeah, I'm not fond of Grouphug either. So that is a major downside to the card. I'm gay and have been campaigning for a card like this for a long time. I'm not too disappointed since they're the Guardians of Meletis and Theros themed, but I do agree that their effect is disappointing. I also understand why they're on the same card and it's valid to treat them as other couple cards and not differently, otherwise the representation might have been called into question. I do feel giving them separate cards with partner would still have been nice though. But regardless I'm happy with them. I just wish they had a different, non-grouphug effect since I can't stand those kinds of decks at all. Or at least gave their controller more of an upside. For example, instead of allowing others to draw, they can each place a land on the battlefield and you draw a card for each opponent that does in addition to the first draw.
I don't mind their names. I call them gay kings as an endearing term. It's because they're on Guardians of Meletis and didn't have names then, but were literally just nameless gay kings. So it's shorter to call them that.
I was curious if anyone felt this way. I'm honestly kind of shocked by the number of people who are gung-ho about group hug, or have never played/played against it and want to try it.
Maybe my memory is fuzzy since I don't post as much as I used to, but I could have sworn group hug was pretty universally despised on the EDH forum.
So we still don't have a UR Artificer,
but we now have two UR Group Hug commanders
(three if you count Nin, the Pain Artist).
This would be funny if it weren't so ******* dumb.
And once again, they've danced around giving a *true* WB Reanimator commander
(returning cards to your hand is not reanimation, folks).
Most of these Partner cards are disastrously dull.
It reminds me of Cipher-
that mechanic could have been *great*,
but they were so afraid of it being great that they made it unplayable.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
So we still don't have a UR Artificer,
but we now have two UR Group Hug commanders
(three if you count Nin, the Pain Artist).
This would be funny if it weren't so ******* dumb.
And once again, they've danced around giving a *true* WB Reanimator commander
(returning cards to your hand is not reanimation, folks).
Most of these Partner cards are disastrously dull.
It reminds me of Cipher-
that mechanic could have been *great*,
but they were so afraid of it being great that they made it unplayable.
I concur. They still haven't found a sweetspot. I remember them considering Umezawa's Jitte to not be good and it ended up being broken. Like adding artifact lands in a block with the affinity mechanic. Yet when they predict something to be too warping they nerf it too much. I feel like they simply ran out of ideas for these 20 legends. Most of them are either lackluster or downright unplayable. They're basically just providing bad legends to partner in order to get a desired color combination. They may as well have reprinted the nephilim's abilities on a legendary creature and be done with it if these are the legends we have to build with.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Kyanois and Tiro Meletis: I am not a fan of group hug. I was kinda hoping these two would be like Zedruu. Yes it may be group hug under disguise but there is something more sinister hiding in the deck. I don't see how this card can help you win. The opponent will ramp before you or get more cards. Yes I know for pure group hug with no win con, people won't care about this... but I don't mind some group hug stuff as long as the controller has an out to win. Just accelerating everyone and whoever has the better tuned deck/takes advantage of group hug tactics will win. Art wise? Great stuff with lots of details. Hand caressing the other king, the statues in the background, holding his partner's helmet etc. If anything I wished it was at the "Upkeep" so that you would get the ramp/draw first. Also setup some pillowfort stuff like Solitary Confinement a bit easier.
Ludevic: Wizards... you had YEARS to come up with something. The same goes for the Legendary Werewolf and the Legendary Spider (granted Ishkanah, Grafwidow sees play in Standard but a Legendary Spider was largely asked by the EDH community). Look at all of Ludevic's flavor is in his cards. They all had some sort of Frankenstein stitching. Among the blue zombie making cards was a little bit different than your standard necromancy, I really wanted to see what Ludevic would do as an actual card. This is far and beyond not what I expected. He is a worse Edric. Also I believe the way that it's worded, someone can attack you with a 20/20 trampler and hit another opponent with a 1/1 flyer... the person still gets to draw. So as long as the opponent can smack someone else in the process, they can draw a card. Tapping with a painland, shocking yourself, or taking damage from a mana vault... an opponent draws a card! There is nothing "mad scientist" about this. I would have hoped at LEAST he be some sort of UG legendary instead of the Null-White general (which would have been ideal).
For the most part the partners are really bad minus Modular Queen (Reylah) and Draw for Mana (Kruphix). It's really hard to justify to partner up with a weak dude. I think the partner stuff is a big cop out to not balance one or two more 4 color legendaries. It wasn't really a "mind blowing" thing. This concept has been toyed around by the EDH community for years with time shifted characters. For example: both Sygg, River Cutthroat / Sygg, River Guide to get Esper merfolk (You would cast either or the other but never have both out), or both Kamhals, Mirris, Crovax etc.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
If you put them on separate cards then you get people upset that Wizards was afraid of making them a true couple card. You could just play one and not be aware of the history or pretend not to. Partner Commanders are somewhat designed to be mixed and matched. That kind of goes against their flavor of their love bonding them strong enough to save a city.
Having them as a single 4 colour legend puts them on the packaging and means something. Having them separate is wrong.
I don't think that needs to be discussed any longer.
There have been two warnings that have been ignored. "The Gay Kings" is NOT an acceptable term to call Kyanios and Tiro on this site.
If you don't feel like typing out the full card then "K & T" or even just "The Kings" should work fine.
We are now giving out infractions. Continued usage will result in locked threads.
Yeah, I'm not fond of Grouphug either. So that is a major downside to the card. I'm gay and have been campaigning for a card like this for a long time. I'm not too disappointed since they're the Guardians of Meletis and Theros themed, but I do agree that their effect is disappointing. I also understand why they're on the same card and it's valid to treat them as other couple cards and not differently, otherwise the representation might have been called into question. I do feel giving them separate cards with partner would still have been nice though. But regardless I'm happy with them. I just wish they had a different, non-grouphug effect since I can't stand those kinds of decks at all. Or at least gave their controller more of an upside. For example, instead of allowing others to draw, they can each place a land on the battlefield and you draw a card for each opponent that does in addition to the first draw.
I don't mind their names. I call them gay kings as an endearing term. It's because they're on Guardians of Meletis and didn't have names then, but were literally just nameless gay kings. So it's shorter to call them that.
I was curious if anyone felt this way. I'm honestly kind of shocked by the number of people who are gung-ho about group hug, or have never played/played against it and want to try it.
Maybe my memory is fuzzy since I don't post as much as I used to, but I could have sworn group hug was pretty universally despised on the EDH forum.
It's a rule in our playgroup, which is casual, to kill the Grouphug player first. I actually hate those kind of decks with a passion. If Kyanios and Tiro's effect had been on a random, non-gay, non-Theros legend, I would not have bothered to even comment on it, let alone run it. I'm disappointed they were designed as Group-Hug frankly, and was from the beginning. But not enough that it overshadows my joy at having Theros-themed homosexual male couple with beautiful art right out of the Theros myths about the Guardians of Meletis. This product is, ultimately, geared toward Vorthos and is a home run in that regard; and I am foremost a Vorthos after all. But yes, I am sorely disappointed in their effects, which aren't tactical and are exactly contrary to my play style or a reasonable play style. Group Hug to me is off-the-wall and for an old quirky legend like the flying hippo that just happens to be an awkward, amusing old card. It's not something to implement on a fresh, new, highly-sought and thematic card like Tiro. That's why I'm upset with their effect.
Regardless, they're too awesome not to play. So my intention is to make them my main Commander and let them simply happen to be Group-Hug by circumstance, but play whatever else I want in the deck and ignore their effect. At least it's an additional draw I suppose. I'm just sad because my Theros Enchantment deck, which is my main deck and centered around Theros Soldiers, Thassa and Heliod (with a Jace and Venser sub-theme) has Ephara as the General who makes the most sense with the deck. It's heavy on Creatures and she rewards this by drawing me cards. Thematically she represents building a Polis and rewarding its residents for having solidarity - cast creatures, and your god bolsters your resources. Flavorfully and mechanically, Ephara is the perfect General for that deck, and she benefits exclusively me and my play style. It feels wrong booting her into the 99 for a Group-Hug general that I ADORE in every way but is horrible and out of place for me mechanically. But I love Tiro as one of my absolute favorite cards so I must.
Kyanois and Tiro Meletis: I am not a fan of group hug. I was kinda hoping these two would be like Zedruu. Yes it may be group hug under disguise but there is something more sinister hiding in the deck. I don't see how this card can help you win. The opponent will ramp before you or get more cards. Yes I know for pure group hug with no win con, people won't care about this... but I don't mind some group hug stuff as long as the controller has an out to win. Just accelerating everyone and whoever has the better tuned deck/takes advantage of group hug tactics will win. Art wise? Great stuff with lots of details. Hand caressing the other king, the statues in the background, holding his partner's helmet etc. If anything I wished it was at the "Upkeep" so that you would get the ramp/draw first. Also setup some pillowfort stuff like Solitary Confinement a bit easier.
Ludevic: Wizards... you had YEARS to come up with something. The same goes for the Legendary Werewolf and the Legendary Spider (granted Ishkanah, Grafwidow sees play in Standard but a Legendary Spider was largely asked by the EDH community). Look at all of Ludevic's flavor is in his cards. They all had some sort of Frankenstein stitching. Among the blue zombie making cards was a little bit different than your standard necromancy, I really wanted to see what Ludevic would do as an actual card. This is far and beyond not what I expected. He is a worse Edric. Also I believe the way that it's worded, someone can attack you with a 20/20 trampler and hit another opponent with a 1/1 flyer... the person still gets to draw. So as long as the opponent can smack someone else in the process, they can draw a card. Tapping with a painland, shocking yourself, or taking damage from a mana vault... an opponent draws a card! There is nothing "mad scientist" about this. I would have hoped at LEAST he be some sort of UG legendary instead of the Null-White general (which would have been ideal).
For the most part the partners are really bad minus Modular Queen (Reylah) and Draw for Mana (Kruphix). It's really hard to justify to partner up with a weak dude. I think the partner stuff is a big cop out to not balance one or two more 4 color legendaries. It wasn't really a "mind blowing" thing. This concept has been toyed around by the EDH community for years with time shifted characters. For example: both Sygg, River Cutthroat / Sygg, River Guide to get Esper merfolk (You would cast either or the other but never have both out), or both Kamhals, Mirris, Crovax etc.
Entirely agree. This was another instance of great in theory but bad in practice. Man, were some of these bad. And it was just slight tweaking that could've been done to fix a lot of these commanders. However, with all the K&T hate going around, I feel that this card can be worked around. It doesn't have a built-in punishment for group drawing like Nekusar has, but it can be worked around. It doesn't include B but there are ways to punish your opponents for putting lands on the battlefield or drawing cards in those color combinations. You can make it a lose/lose situation for opponents while it's a win/win for you. It's definitely not 100% noble grouphug; you have to definitely build around it. I see cards like Ankh of Mishra, Lifegift, Shattered Angel, Tectonic Instability, and Zo-Zu the Punisher to hurt opponents for playing lands (though the deck should've had more cards like this instead of those lackluster legends with partner). I would also put cards like Consecrated Sphinx and Mind's Eye. However, notice that the amount of cards that would punish opponents for the bonuses provided by K&T are very limited when the deck has 99 cards.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
It's a rule in our playgroup, which is casual, to kill the Grouphug player first. I actually hate those kind of decks with a passion. If Kyanios and Tiro's effect had been on a random, non-gay, non-Theros legend, I would not have bothered to even comment on it, let alone run it. I'm disappointed they were designed as Group-Hug frankly, and was from the beginning. But not enough that it overshadows my joy at having Theros-themed homosexual male couple with beautiful art right out of the Theros myths about the Guardians of Meletis. This product is, ultimately, geared toward Vorthos and is a home run in that regard; and I am foremost a Vorthos after all. But yes, I am sorely disappointed in their effects, which aren't tactical and are exactly contrary to my play style or a reasonable play style. Group Hug to me is off-the-wall and for an old quirky legend like the flying hippo that just happens to be an awkward, amusing old card. It's not something to implement on a fresh, new, highly-sought and thematic card like Gay Kings. That's why I'm upset with their effect.
Regardless, they're too awesome not to play. So my intention is to make them my main Commander and let them simply happen to be Group-Hug by circumstance, but play whatever else I want in the deck and ignore their effect. At least it's an additional draw I suppose. I'm just sad because my Theros Enchantment deck, which is my main deck and centered around Theros Soldiers, Thassa and Heliod (with a Jace and Venser sub-theme) has Ephara as the General who makes the most sense with the deck. It's heavy on Creatures and she rewards this by drawing me cards. Thematically she represents building a Polis and rewarding its residents for having solidarity - cast creatures, and your god bolsters your resources. Flavorfully and mechanically, Ephara is the perfect General for that deck, and she benefits exclusively me and my play style. It feels wrong booting her into the 99 for a Group-Hug general that I ADORE in every way but is horrible and out of place for me mechanically. But I love Gay Kings as one of my absolute favorite cards so I must.
While I agree with the rest of your post, I have to point this out since poor phelddagrif has really taken a bashing today: Phelddy is not group hug. Group hug helps everyone, regardless of whether they're stuck on 2 lands and at 5 life, or if they've got 20 lands and 5 infinite combos in hand. That's why it (imo) sucks. Phelddagrif does help opponents, but he helps SPECIFIC opponents (or no opponents, if desired), so you can keep a (temporary) ally in the game long enough to help defeat the leader, or offer opponents rewards for making the plays you want. I'd call that sort of effect "political" not "hug".
Speaking as someone who's made, what, 5 phelddagrif decks now And I always play to win. You'll never feel as devious as when you coerce the whole table to do your bidding while you hide behind a derpy hippo.
I am gay. And I am not happy that this forum follows such a small-minded agenda regarding a loose und unserious nick name for Kyanios and Tiro of Meletis.
I posted the card image to many people on facebook, many gay friends that know magic only on a very basic level, but they were all very pleased about the card and even there we talked about them as g** kings.
I argue that threatening people with forum bannings is too excessive in this case.
Wizards of the Coast decided to focus on them being kings and being gay - lore wise. That included not only the Commander 2016 card, but also Guardians of Meletis. If they don't provide more context, then I think it's only logical to refer to them as that...
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Hey now!
At least toilet paper has *some* value.
This is no toilet paper.
He's an ad card with a casting cost.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Being salty over Ludevic is warranted, but you can't get salty over Urza. He will never be printed beyond Vanguard because he's simply too broken. It would be on par with printing Yawgmoth. If anything, Wizards could create yet another variant (similar to Archenemy) where it's Urza vs. Yawgmoth or something along those lines. That would be amazing. It would sort of be like Vanguard or Hero's Path where those cards can't really be used elsewhere or in certain game modes. Again, Urza will never be printed in normal play. So, in the mean time, you can gaze upon this:
As for Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist, man, what a bad card. This card is on the same level as Homelands and even then I'd play Daughter of Autumn than Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist. The only pros I see for it is pinging players during your turn so you can draw a card at the end of your turn. And even then, there are way better cards than that. I mean, Fevered Visions is strictly better. Howling Mine is better. Ludevic is just awful. That may clause is what ruins it the most for me. In a Nekusar deck, Ludevic would've found a home. But not even there. I wouldn't have him in the command zone even as a prank.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I wanted a pre-walker version of Urza, when he wasn't a planeswalker yet, during the Brothers War. Also i think people are overestimating his power abit, he was never close to Yawgmoth's power(Yawgmoth never printed i can agreed). Urza lost agaisnt Radiance ffs.
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https://www.facebook.com/pg/MagicTheGathering/photos/
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<> symbol on the painlands! Squee!!
Ahem. You may resume arguing about Urza.
(Also known as Xenphire)
For examle, here is how I would fix Ludevic:
Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist
2UB
Pay 4 life: Discard a card, then draw a card. Activate only as a sorcery. Any player can activate this ability.
Partner
1/3 (I'm not giving him above-average stats if he's actually interesting now)
He's all about experimenting and seeing what will happen- and offers that same ability to your opponents for even more madness. A lot of data to be collected about self-harm, hubris, and a human body's maximum pain tolerance. He oozes red/blue, not just because of the looting but because blue can benefit from refilling it's hand and red can quickly burn out your opponents who get too greedy with the ability. 4 life is probably juuuust enough to be difficult to resist, while it can go up to 5 if it's too strong. If the effect is too absuable by your opponents, you can just leave him in the Command Zone and play with your Partner Commander instead. He also pairs up great with Kraum now hecause your opponents should have plenty of good cards to cast. The only issue is he might be too good with Kydele now, seeing as you can loot like mad then unleash your massive Eldrazi abomination in the Battlefield. On the other hand, you're not white or black so gaining that life back you burn through might be tricky, and Kydele is probably busted no matter what. I made Ludeic cost the same as Kydele just so you couldnt curve the two out.
What do you guys' think?
Modern: Eldrazi CB,
Yeah OK so they like to put couples on the same card. All well and good.
But if you come up with a new mechanic for legendary creatures that "Partner" up, that would be the EXACT perfect instance to split those couples up into two cards and partner them. Huge fail on potential there. Agree 1000% with tibor and lumia and the meletis kings getting their own cards with partner. Would have been so flavorful good. Plus others throughout magics past that would fit beautifully with this new mechanic instead of seemingly random 2 color legengs that are supposed to partner up.
And Ludevic is such an epic unacceptable fail on so many points that 100% of the community needs to get on wotc and make sure they don't play this crap again
I would've rather they not print Urza (able to use every color except G) than they do and mess him up worse than Ludevic.
Hopefully that doesn't affect the amount of "rares" per precon.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I'm just glad Wizards designed these characters because (as you pointed out, everyone points out that they're gay) but I want to also throw in the mix that they are an interracial couple, as well. I remember a lot of people boycotting Cheerio's because the commercial showed an interracial family. Hopefully this helps further along the ideal of actual tolerance. Even though people are referring to them as the gay kings - and I get what you mean - but so far it hasn't been done disrespectfully. Just saying two kings or dual kings doesn't mean they're necessarily a couple. Maybe referring to them as the king couple is better?
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I don't mind their names. I call them gay kings as an endearing term. It's because they're on Guardians of Meletis and didn't have names then, but were literally just nameless gay kings. So it's shorter to call them that.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Maybe my memory is fuzzy since I don't post as much as I used to, but I could have sworn group hug was pretty universally despised on the EDH forum.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
but we now have two UR Group Hug commanders
(three if you count Nin, the Pain Artist).
This would be funny if it weren't so ******* dumb.
And once again, they've danced around giving a *true* WB Reanimator commander
(returning cards to your hand is not reanimation, folks).
Most of these Partner cards are disastrously dull.
It reminds me of Cipher-
that mechanic could have been *great*,
but they were so afraid of it being great that they made it unplayable.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I concur. They still haven't found a sweetspot. I remember them considering Umezawa's Jitte to not be good and it ended up being broken. Like adding artifact lands in a block with the affinity mechanic. Yet when they predict something to be too warping they nerf it too much. I feel like they simply ran out of ideas for these 20 legends. Most of them are either lackluster or downright unplayable. They're basically just providing bad legends to partner in order to get a desired color combination. They may as well have reprinted the nephilim's abilities on a legendary creature and be done with it if these are the legends we have to build with.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Ludevic: Wizards... you had YEARS to come up with something. The same goes for the Legendary Werewolf and the Legendary Spider (granted Ishkanah, Grafwidow sees play in Standard but a Legendary Spider was largely asked by the EDH community). Look at all of Ludevic's flavor is in his cards. They all had some sort of Frankenstein stitching. Among the blue zombie making cards was a little bit different than your standard necromancy, I really wanted to see what Ludevic would do as an actual card. This is far and beyond not what I expected. He is a worse Edric. Also I believe the way that it's worded, someone can attack you with a 20/20 trampler and hit another opponent with a 1/1 flyer... the person still gets to draw. So as long as the opponent can smack someone else in the process, they can draw a card. Tapping with a painland, shocking yourself, or taking damage from a mana vault... an opponent draws a card! There is nothing "mad scientist" about this. I would have hoped at LEAST he be some sort of UG legendary instead of the Null-White general (which would have been ideal).
For the most part the partners are really bad minus Modular Queen (Reylah) and Draw for Mana (Kruphix). It's really hard to justify to partner up with a weak dude. I think the partner stuff is a big cop out to not balance one or two more 4 color legendaries. It wasn't really a "mind blowing" thing. This concept has been toyed around by the EDH community for years with time shifted characters. For example: both Sygg, River Cutthroat / Sygg, River Guide to get Esper merfolk (You would cast either or the other but never have both out), or both Kamhals, Mirris, Crovax etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
Having them as a single 4 colour legend puts them on the packaging and means something. Having them separate is wrong.
I don't think that needs to be discussed any longer.
There have been two warnings that have been ignored. "The Gay Kings" is NOT an acceptable term to call Kyanios and Tiro on this site.
If you don't feel like typing out the full card then "K & T" or even just "The Kings" should work fine.
We are now giving out infractions. Continued usage will result in locked threads.
Regardless, they're too awesome not to play. So my intention is to make them my main Commander and let them simply happen to be Group-Hug by circumstance, but play whatever else I want in the deck and ignore their effect. At least it's an additional draw I suppose. I'm just sad because my Theros Enchantment deck, which is my main deck and centered around Theros Soldiers, Thassa and Heliod (with a Jace and Venser sub-theme) has Ephara as the General who makes the most sense with the deck. It's heavy on Creatures and she rewards this by drawing me cards. Thematically she represents building a Polis and rewarding its residents for having solidarity - cast creatures, and your god bolsters your resources. Flavorfully and mechanically, Ephara is the perfect General for that deck, and she benefits exclusively me and my play style. It feels wrong booting her into the 99 for a Group-Hug general that I ADORE in every way but is horrible and out of place for me mechanically. But I love Tiro as one of my absolute favorite cards so I must.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Entirely agree. This was another instance of great in theory but bad in practice. Man, were some of these bad. And it was just slight tweaking that could've been done to fix a lot of these commanders. However, with all the K&T hate going around, I feel that this card can be worked around. It doesn't have a built-in punishment for group drawing like Nekusar has, but it can be worked around. It doesn't include B but there are ways to punish your opponents for putting lands on the battlefield or drawing cards in those color combinations. You can make it a lose/lose situation for opponents while it's a win/win for you. It's definitely not 100% noble grouphug; you have to definitely build around it. I see cards like Ankh of Mishra, Lifegift, Shattered Angel, Tectonic Instability, and Zo-Zu the Punisher to hurt opponents for playing lands (though the deck should've had more cards like this instead of those lackluster legends with partner). I would also put cards like Consecrated Sphinx and Mind's Eye. However, notice that the amount of cards that would punish opponents for the bonuses provided by K&T are very limited when the deck has 99 cards.
EDIT:
To make it very unfair would require convoluted combinations like Jace, Unraveler of Secrets (his emblem) + Omen Machine.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Speaking as someone who's made, what, 5 phelddagrif decks now And I always play to win. You'll never feel as devious as when you coerce the whole table to do your bidding while you hide behind a derpy hippo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I posted the card image to many people on facebook, many gay friends that know magic only on a very basic level, but they were all very pleased about the card and even there we talked about them as g** kings.
I argue that threatening people with forum bannings is too excessive in this case.
Wizards of the Coast decided to focus on them being kings and being gay - lore wise. That included not only the Commander 2016 card, but also Guardians of Meletis. If they don't provide more context, then I think it's only logical to refer to them as that...
http://magiccards.info/query?q=t:"ogre"&s=cname&v=card&p=1
have fun with ogre tribal none of the ogres ever printed is white
Actually, thanks to the Great Creature Type Update, Yidris can't live his dream to command ALL THE OGRES
Cho-Arrim Bruiser