I like fabricate, but there will rarely be a time when Felhide Minotaur is actually better than getting an army of guys (2 1/1s and a 0/1 that can be recurred for another platoon). Every once in a while, you'll be afraid of a Pyroclasm effect, or something, but the whole mechanic feels largely like a false choice. Quantity is not always better than quality, but an extra guy (and an artifact, no less) is better quantity than a simple +1/+1 counter is quality.
Probably, except I'm betting there are enough +1/+1 matters cards out there that it becomes a false choice in the other direction for that limited build (which is probably in GW, since we haven't seen that uncommon yet). And while the choice might be 99% in favor of one option over the other, having the other option when you need it is fine.
Looking at it. They are designed around the modules. The choice of either actually makes it more flexible depending on whether you want to set off Animation(which is sadly a rare) or Decoction(which is uncommon). However, if you are the lucky person to open Animation, Fabrication's +1/+1 reads get both for 1 more mana.
I like fabricate, but there will rarely be a time when Felhide Minotaur is actually better than getting an army of guys (2 1/1s and a 0/1 that can be recurred for another platoon). Every once in a while, you'll be afraid of a Pyroclasm effect, or something, but the whole mechanic feels largely like a false choice. Quantity is not always better than quality, but an extra guy (and an artifact, no less) is better quantity than a simple +1/+1 counter is quality.
But what if the next block has "counters matter"? Then it will be a tougher decision. I am hoping the next block has -1/-1 counters and plays in the design space between the two. (And they can go shove how "difficult" that is for players, considering they have put out mechanics like meld and vehicles. I'm pretty sure players can do simple addition and subtraction.)
-1/-1 Counters and +1/+1 counters can exist in the same standard. It encourages education on the rules of the game.
Do you know what happens if a 0/0 Critter with Undying dies? It returns with a +1/+1 counter. Then if given a -1/-1 counter, it and the +1/+1 are removed and the critter dies, thus, retriggering the Undying ability.
Private Mod Note
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Wanted -Zombie Foils and older expensive Zombie stuff. High Priority- Beta Z Master/ Int. Collector's Edition.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
-1/-1 Counters and +1/+1 counters can exist in the same standard. It encourages education on the rules of the game.
Do you know what happens if a 0/0 Critter with Undying dies? It returns with a +1/+1 counter. Then if given a -1/-1 counter, it and the +1/+1 are removed and the critter dies, thus, retriggering the Undying ability.
Yes, it encourages education in the game. In other news:
If a creature with persist that has +1/+1 counters on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner’s graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, persist won’t trigger and the card won’t return to the battlefield. That’s because persist checks the creature’s existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point.
Hmm, nope. Your example is too vague and does not in any way explain the effect I was going for.
Persist and Undying have the same issue, and the same reason your example doesn't work. If this creature dies without a +1/+1 (-1/-1 for Persist), bring it back with a +1/+1 (-1/-1) counter.
Now, if a creature has both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters, you are to simplify to the lowest number of counters, which is what you were going for, HOWEVER if the creature is already being sent to the graveyard (due to lethal damage, or having zero toughness) you do not simplify the number of counters, the creature is just dead.
If Boggart Ram Gang blocks a Young Wolf that has a +1/+1 counter it deals 3 -1/-1 counters to the Young Wolf, Young Wolf has less than zero toughness and is sent to the graveyard. BUT since it went to the graveyard with a +1/+1 counter on it (even if it had 3 -1/-1 counters on it), it dies, does not trigger Undying, and stays dead.
In other words, -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters only cancel each other if the creature they're on is alive for the cancelling to occur. If a creature gets enough -1/-1 counters to die, it dies before any counter cancelling occurs. That creature may have a bunch of both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it and any triggers which care about counter types will see the creature as having both.
It can't have from your example 3 -1/-1 counters ever if it has one +1/+1 counter. It will never have -1 toughness if it has a +1/+1 counter.
I never said a 1/1 creature. i said a 0/0 with +1/+1 counter gets a -1/-1 counter. They're both moved off, and it dies then, without any.
121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704. #
The counters are removed faster than the ability will trigger.
It can't have from your example 3 -1/-1 counters ever if it has one +1/+1 counter. It will never have -1 toughness if it has a +1/+1 counter.
I never said a 1/1 creature. i said a 0/0 with +1/+1 counter gets a -1/-1 counter. They're both moved off, and it dies then, without any.
No, it would be dead, because it has 0 toughness with a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter (0+1-1=0) It would be sent to the graveyard as a state based action, it was sent to the graveyard with a +1/+1 counter on it, Undying cannot trigger.
These are game rules, I quoted the appropriate ruling but if you need me to find the rules text about the interplay of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters I will. I am hoping you will just accept you're wrong gracefully.
Edit: What you missed is that certain state based actions happen before others, such as:
- 704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
- 704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
By the time you're trying to remove counters, the creature is already in the graveyard, and has been there for G-Q levels of state based actions.
Edit 2: More specifically, in the rulings attached to state based actions:
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
Reckless Fireweaver + Fabricate = Bomb. I'm surprised he's printed at common; even if he can't shoot creatures, he and Fabricate can easily put opponents in very fast clock.
The rest of the cards are ok, nothing special. Weaponcraft Enthusiast being uncommon greatly disappoints me, though.
Looking at it. They are designed around the modules. The choice of either actually makes it more flexible depending on whether you want to set off Animation(which is sadly a rare) or Decoction(which is uncommon). However, if you are the lucky person to open Animation, Fabrication's +1/+1 reads get both for 1 more mana.
But what if the next block has "counters matter"? Then it will be a tougher decision. I am hoping the next block has -1/-1 counters and plays in the design space between the two. (And they can go shove how "difficult" that is for players, considering they have put out mechanics like meld and vehicles. I'm pretty sure players can do simple addition and subtraction.)
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Do you know what happens if a 0/0 Critter with Undying dies? It returns with a +1/+1 counter. Then if given a -1/-1 counter, it and the +1/+1 are removed and the critter dies, thus, retriggering the Undying ability.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Weaponcraft enthusiast makes me think that isn't likely.
That's how it actually works.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
Now, if a creature has both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters, you are to simplify to the lowest number of counters, which is what you were going for, HOWEVER if the creature is already being sent to the graveyard (due to lethal damage, or having zero toughness) you do not simplify the number of counters, the creature is just dead.
If Boggart Ram Gang blocks a Young Wolf that has a +1/+1 counter it deals 3 -1/-1 counters to the Young Wolf, Young Wolf has less than zero toughness and is sent to the graveyard. BUT since it went to the graveyard with a +1/+1 counter on it (even if it had 3 -1/-1 counters on it), it dies, does not trigger Undying, and stays dead.
It can't have from your example 3 -1/-1 counters ever if it has one +1/+1 counter. It will never have -1 toughness if it has a +1/+1 counter.
I never said a 1/1 creature. i said a 0/0 with +1/+1 counter gets a -1/-1 counter. They're both moved off, and it dies then, without any.
121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704. #
The counters are removed faster than the ability will trigger.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
These are game rules, I quoted the appropriate ruling but if you need me to find the rules text about the interplay of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters I will. I am hoping you will just accept you're wrong gracefully.
Edit: What you missed is that certain state based actions happen before others, such as:
- 704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
- 704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
By the time you're trying to remove counters, the creature is already in the graveyard, and has been there for G-Q levels of state based actions.
Edit 2: More specifically, in the rulings attached to state based actions:
The rest of the cards are ok, nothing special. Weaponcraft Enthusiast being uncommon greatly disappoints me, though.