If it means a tradeoff of a poorer quality of the set in the foreseeable future, I'm not up for it.
As for making standard more accessible, that's bull. It's a very very very very far-reaching reason. One that our teachers/lecturers would lambast us if we did so in our essays. Any child could have spun that tale. It's made up to mask the marketing aspect, which was plainly obvious.
The other important thing is that they can finally flatten out sales of the sets over the course of the year. It's next to impossible to 100% predict the new standard metagame, but it's easy to chuck at least one super expensive expidition onto the sheet. That should avoid issues like Worldwake or Futuresight where Jace or Tarmogoyf ends up over $100.
"Many other trading card games do higher rarities than Magic, and we've always avoided those because we didn't want it to get in the way of the game. Cards should be attainable." Mark Rosewater, pissing on our heads and telling us it's raining again. If you want to make them "attainable", don't make them 1 copy per 4 boxes.
He's talking about cards in the "unique game component" sense, not in the "unique piece of cardboard" sense. Printing an Expedition Gearhulk doesn't make the regular Gearhulk less attainable -- it actually makes it (very slightly) more attainable, and the battlefield doesn't care how shiny your Gearhulk is when you beat someone in the face with it.
Significant portions of the article dealt with the problems of getting powerful reprints into the market, saying putting them into Standard would warp the format. My comment was in regards to him saying that this is an effective means of doing so. 1 reprint in 4 boxes is hardly a means for getting reprints to the players.
O don't think the inventions will sink Kaladesh prices as the expeditions did to BFZ... BFZ had soo litle playables outside of the 6 MR and 4 or soo rares that did see play.
Oath of the Gatewatch had Expeditions and good rares and MR... It did not sink in value... The way Kaladesh is going it is probably it will not get pricy because we have: Good Rares and MR that seems to be playable in modern commander and standard. The inventions spoiled so far would probably end up in the 10-20 range ( mana cript going for a litle more). Unless all the others inventions are modern and legacy staples i don't see it happening at all. But maybe they can reprint the swords from Mirrodin, expedition map, Master of the Eteriun, painter servant, etc
But i don't see fetch lands anywhere
The other important thing is that they can finally flatten out sales of the sets over the course of the year. It's next to impossible to 100% predict the new standard metagame, but it's easy to chuck at least one super expensive expidition onto the sheet. That should avoid issues like Worldwake or Futuresight where Jace or Tarmogoyf ends up over $100.
Players should be happy to keep future standard prices down with all the pack cracking. I can't wait to see Alpha Investents analysis of this set and how many Inventions he pulled.
I'm a fan for this as I actually enjoy cracking packs. Buying singles is cheaper, but significantly less fun tbh.
However I will say that I have the feel bads for people who bought heavily into the expeditions, as this lessens the value of them to me slightly. In 10+ years down the road I could see someone having a full masterpiece deck if they ever do a basic land set, and the experience of seeing something special a cross the table isn't that same to me at that point.
Now that we have a steady stream of chase cards that aren't lands (highly sought after ones too), I am hoping the price point on pre smirk cards falls on the secondary market. A premium llanowar elf would be the nuts.
Other thing I'm loving about the Kaladesh inventions specifically: Unlike the initial BFZ expeditions these aren't going to revolve around cycles, so it'll be lots of interesting individual cards. Makes me more excited that way.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out the thread for my cube if you have the time, and tell me how terrible it is.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
I joked about vehicles at my lgs and people shook their head. I joked about 'relics' in Kaladesh and people got a laugh out of it. Well, here they are and the flood gates of spain will once more be opened on magiccardmarket, completely destroying any value this set might've had.
I think the border is a bit too exaggerated, but damn the beauty of that mana crypt is unreal.
Isn't destroying the value of a set a good thing with standard in mind? No more $40 mythics... The best mythics will settle at 20-25.
It kind of is and then again I think it isn't. Those expeditions will suck up all the attention and noone will give a **** about the rest of the set. People might not be as stoked for the first mythics and planeswalkers of an upcoming set, because hey, it's all about the quality foil reprints, aka expeditions now. Why design good, creative cards if you don't have to anymore, your ultra mythics basically guarantee you'll sell out anyway. Battle for zendikar made me cringe in how weak and lame the set was, but hey it was still a massive sucess all due to the expeditions. I really don't want to see another set that has to rely on uber-rare mythic foils to be interesting, do you?
Lastly, I think if the set isn't worth a damn anymore, more and more shops might and SHOULD be hesitant to open, or heck even buy a lot of product because the market is way too saturated and there's no money to be made there, which can't be exactly healthy for the game either.
I forgot to express my grief for the dedicated collectors among you, because with 50 expeditions per BLOCK your wallet will most likely lose a few pounds.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
OK. But still, if you're a collector there are probably more optimal ways to get the masterpieces than opening a bunch of packs, given the low chance of getting one.
In 2 BFZ boxes, and I don't know how many drafts and sealed, I never got an Expedition and just saw 2 open by people I know in different events.
But yes, the desirability of these cards will certainly increase the boosters demand to a certain level.
That's just it. You might not have seen many expeditions actually opened, but how many times have you seen someone say, "I'll take a pack of BFZ. Maybe I'll hit an Expedition."
All those extra packs add up, causing the set to sell better. While that's certainly a goal that Maro didn't mention, in terms of revenue, it also means more packs opened overall. Which means more supply and lower prices for ALL the cards in the set, not just those that are on the Masterpiece sheet. Actually the effect on the prices of the actual Masterpieces is likely minimal. (I thought I might be able to get an original Verdant Catacombs more cheaply after the Expedition reprint. NOPE!)
The first is the number of these things. There are more of these in a set than there are mythics, and it's approaching the number of rares that are in the set. But they're seen in a ridiculously low number. These number seem extremely untenable. Especially if they're being used for every set from now on. Which brings me to point 2.
Are these going to maintain their excitement level? Mythics are interesting because they're generally new, highly powerful cards. These are some new, some old, with fancy new art. If full art basic lands lose their special appeal by appearing in every set, what will make the masterpiece series different (aside from the obvious rarity aspect)?
I trust Wizards, but I'd be lying if I said this whole thing didn't make me super nervous.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
But those Islands are gorgeous. Specifically the first two.
Why do you loathe it? Given how Blue it is I figured you'd like it. Unless you don't like UR.
I don't like planes like Kaladesh, Ravnica, Mirrodin, etc. I don't like Artifacts, UR, industry, etc. It's just aesthetically not pleasing to me in any of its themes. Planes I love are Theros, original Zendikar, Kamigawa, Ice Age Dominaraia, even Innistrad to an extent was interesting, both INN and AVR.
Wow I HATE you guys at wizards so much for this garbage. Expedition rarity is NOT a solution to reprinting expensive hard to get cards. How dumb are you guy? 1/144 packs contains one. So "Hey guys if you pay us $144 x 4 = $576 you can get a mana crypt worth $60. Or better yet! How about a $1 card at super ultra mythic rarity with a different card frame?" My supreme level of hatred towards them for their crap has just a all time high. This is just more BS.
As always they can print anything they want but choose not to. Conspiracy could have easy had 15 mythic rares that were expensive. Then they could have added a ton of value to the rares. They don't because they need the high prices to stay high to justify themselves selling booster packs for $4 each or in the case of a masters set $10 each. It's just a bunch of BS over and over again. It's a marketing gimmick!
"Hey Maro." Yes? "We need you to lie to everyone again about how we can't reprint card again. You know ink on paper." Hey guys we just can't reprint good cards in a normal set at a normal rarity because we hate you. We think you guys are super dumb. In fact I decided to personally crap on every sheet of super mythics so you really get how much we're lying to you. I hope you keep buying our cardboard crack!
First, you are massively overreacting. You "HATE" Wizards for this? Really? And they are "dumb"? Maybe you need to take a break.
Second, there's a pretty good chance that you are just flat-out incorrect, and that this will result in noticeably more reprints available in the secondary market. If they release some kind of product that you may be thinking about which is not standard-playable but is guaranteed to contain some older random reprints, then the VERY few people who care about those reprints may buy the product, but thats it. Almost EVERYONE buys the boosters from the latest set. 1 in 144 for 1 of 50-something reprint cards may not sound like much to you, but we may be talking potentially ***millions*** of additional boosters opened that otherwise would not have been sold because of the lottery ticket effect (on top of the enormous number of boosters being opened anyway), especially late in the format when boosters tend to be seen as kinda worthless, people may still decide to buy a couple more packs that week while in the store because why not, I might pull a $100 card.
Also where's my colorless Gearhulk !!!
Twitch: gamerchamp
Modern: UGrand Architect, UBTezzeret Control, UBWRG Bridge From Below (Dredge)
Legacy: UWGTrue-Name Bant
As for making standard more accessible, that's bull. It's a very very very very far-reaching reason. One that our teachers/lecturers would lambast us if we did so in our essays. Any child could have spun that tale. It's made up to mask the marketing aspect, which was plainly obvious.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Steel overseer mox opal and voltaic key for my guesses
And probably any of these (excluding the mox jewels and black lotus and time vault ofcoarse.)
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/top-50-artifacts-all-time-2005-02-28
Significant portions of the article dealt with the problems of getting powerful reprints into the market, saying putting them into Standard would warp the format. My comment was in regards to him saying that this is an effective means of doing so. 1 reprint in 4 boxes is hardly a means for getting reprints to the players.
Oath of the Gatewatch had Expeditions and good rares and MR... It did not sink in value... The way Kaladesh is going it is probably it will not get pricy because we have: Good Rares and MR that seems to be playable in modern commander and standard. The inventions spoiled so far would probably end up in the 10-20 range ( mana cript going for a litle more). Unless all the others inventions are modern and legacy staples i don't see it happening at all. But maybe they can reprint the swords from Mirrodin, expedition map, Master of the Eteriun, painter servant, etc
But i don't see fetch lands anywhere
However I will say that I have the feel bads for people who bought heavily into the expeditions, as this lessens the value of them to me slightly. In 10+ years down the road I could see someone having a full masterpiece deck if they ever do a basic land set, and the experience of seeing something special a cross the table isn't that same to me at that point.
Now that we have a steady stream of chase cards that aren't lands (highly sought after ones too), I am hoping the price point on pre smirk cards falls on the secondary market. A premium llanowar elf would be the nuts.
Meh
Modern
BUWEsper ControlWUB
BRUGrixis DelverURB
WRBGKiki ChordGBRW
WBGAbzan MidrangeGBW
BRGJundGRB
Legacy
UBRGrixis DelverRBU
Commander
Also meh
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
It kind of is and then again I think it isn't. Those expeditions will suck up all the attention and noone will give a **** about the rest of the set. People might not be as stoked for the first mythics and planeswalkers of an upcoming set, because hey, it's all about the quality foil reprints, aka expeditions now. Why design good, creative cards if you don't have to anymore, your ultra mythics basically guarantee you'll sell out anyway. Battle for zendikar made me cringe in how weak and lame the set was, but hey it was still a massive sucess all due to the expeditions. I really don't want to see another set that has to rely on uber-rare mythic foils to be interesting, do you?
Lastly, I think if the set isn't worth a damn anymore, more and more shops might and SHOULD be hesitant to open, or heck even buy a lot of product because the market is way too saturated and there's no money to be made there, which can't be exactly healthy for the game either.
I forgot to express my grief for the dedicated collectors among you, because with 50 expeditions per BLOCK your wallet will most likely lose a few pounds.
I can see the invention mana crypt and gauntlets of power being super high because of EDH
All those extra packs add up, causing the set to sell better. While that's certainly a goal that Maro didn't mention, in terms of revenue, it also means more packs opened overall. Which means more supply and lower prices for ALL the cards in the set, not just those that are on the Masterpiece sheet. Actually the effect on the prices of the actual Masterpieces is likely minimal. (I thought I might be able to get an original Verdant Catacombs more cheaply after the Expedition reprint. NOPE!)
At the given rate, I also can't wait for the next time we see Inquisition of Kozilek as a Masterpiece hur hur hur...
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
In Progress
GBIshkanah, Grafwidow ~ BWGRTymna the Weaver & Tana, the Bloodsower ~ UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ~ RGAtarka, World Render
The first is the number of these things. There are more of these in a set than there are mythics, and it's approaching the number of rares that are in the set. But they're seen in a ridiculously low number. These number seem extremely untenable. Especially if they're being used for every set from now on. Which brings me to point 2.
Are these going to maintain their excitement level? Mythics are interesting because they're generally new, highly powerful cards. These are some new, some old, with fancy new art. If full art basic lands lose their special appeal by appearing in every set, what will make the masterpiece series different (aside from the obvious rarity aspect)?
I trust Wizards, but I'd be lying if I said this whole thing didn't make me super nervous.
Why do you loathe it? Given how Blue it is I figured you'd like it. Unless you don't like UR.
Um, they did that in the original Zendikar Expeditions... ...
Yes, that Mana Crypt might be the best looking MTG card I've EVER seen.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
First, you are massively overreacting. You "HATE" Wizards for this? Really? And they are "dumb"? Maybe you need to take a break.
Second, there's a pretty good chance that you are just flat-out incorrect, and that this will result in noticeably more reprints available in the secondary market. If they release some kind of product that you may be thinking about which is not standard-playable but is guaranteed to contain some older random reprints, then the VERY few people who care about those reprints may buy the product, but thats it. Almost EVERYONE buys the boosters from the latest set. 1 in 144 for 1 of 50-something reprint cards may not sound like much to you, but we may be talking potentially ***millions*** of additional boosters opened that otherwise would not have been sold because of the lottery ticket effect (on top of the enormous number of boosters being opened anyway), especially late in the format when boosters tend to be seen as kinda worthless, people may still decide to buy a couple more packs that week while in the store because why not, I might pull a $100 card.
OK that was the same last time with expeditions?
Becuase lol opening Mana Crypt in limited...O_O