Sweet. So even if they try to remove it, it still a mini siege rhino. Could totally see this in a B/W Control or Midrange deck. Ayli into this into Gideon or Gisela. Also, and this is magically Christmas land, but cast Emrakul then cast all the non creature spells they have to drain them for like 6.
I think people in this thread need to re-read the card. It only lets you draw for cards removed from hand, not from library and graveyard
See, from my reading, it's the player who got extracted who draws the cards. You are never drawing anything unless you extract yourself.
I didn't imply otherwise, I never said who was casting the spell or who was the target, just that cards are not drawn from exiling from the grave and deck. I should have clarified.
I noticed no one mentioned Lost Legacy is very similar to Vendilian Clique(card taken from hand draws them a card). Clique is definitely better because it leaves a 3/1 flying body at flash speed but the fact this thing can hit instant/sorceries/enchantments is insane: Especially if the only thing that can beat you is a sweeper or particular spell.
This is nothing like clique. Clique let's you look at their hand and remove the best card. This one maybe hits something in their hand if you are lucky, and even when it does they still get to draw a card for it. It is always pure card disadvantage for the one casting the Legacy.
I really don't get why people feel this is an awesome card, isn't it pretty much a pretty bad extraction-effect?
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I noticed no one mentioned Lost Legacy is very similar to Vendilian Clique(card taken from hand draws them a card). Clique is definitely better because it leaves a 3/1 flying body at flash speed but the fact this thing can hit instant/sorceries/enchantments is insane: Especially if the only thing that can beat you is a sweeper or particular spell.
This is nothing like clique. Clique let's you look at their hand and remove the best card. This one maybe hits something in their hand if you are lucky, and even when it does they still get to draw a card for it. It is always pure card disadvantage for the one casting the Legacy.
I really don't get why people feel this is an awesome card, isn't it pretty much a pretty bad extraction-effect?
No its not bad. You get the cards from anywhere. You name Emrakul, you get all of them no matter where they are. If there are any in hand they get to draw to replace them. You unconditionally get to take a whole playlet from their library. And on top of that it has the flexibility of letting you get rid of dead cards if need be. Its only actually bad if they have multiples in hand.
I swear I first read it as Wingbonger...something tells me that "As Long as Wingbonger is paired with another creature, both creatures have weed." wouldn't be as good. Seems solid for limited.
I noticed no one mentioned Lost Legacy is very similar to Vendilian Clique(card taken from hand draws them a card). Clique is definitely better because it leaves a 3/1 flying body at flash speed but the fact this thing can hit instant/sorceries/enchantments is insane: Especially if the only thing that can beat you is a sweeper or particular spell.
This is nothing like clique. Clique let's you look at their hand and remove the best card. This one maybe hits something in their hand if you are lucky, and even when it does they still get to draw a card for it. It is always pure card disadvantage for the one casting the Legacy.
I really don't get why people feel this is an awesome card, isn't it pretty much a pretty bad extraction-effect?
You're right in that I misread the card. I thought you looked at the hand first then proceeded. I love they replaced inf obliteration with a cool variant and not just reprinted it. It may end up being better or worse. I'm leaning towards better because it can hit that one card you just can't beat. Chances are it's not an artifact. B/W or U/B control naming Coco. Even though Coco is leaving, this card will def see play. It has upside on Inf Obliteration and is bad in the same areas inf obliteration is. Against a mono white humans deck, burn deck, anything where the deck has alot of redundancies but hoses decks with few payoff cards.
I noticed no one mentioned Lost Legacy is very similar to Vendilian Clique(card taken from hand draws them a card). Clique is definitely better because it leaves a 3/1 flying body at flash speed but the fact this thing can hit instant/sorceries/enchantments is insane: Especially if the only thing that can beat you is a sweeper or particular spell.
This is nothing like clique. Clique let's you look at their hand and remove the best card. This one maybe hits something in their hand if you are lucky, and even when it does they still get to draw a card for it. It is always pure card disadvantage for the one casting the Legacy.
I really don't get why people feel this is an awesome card, isn't it pretty much a pretty bad extraction-effect?
No its not bad. You get the cards from anywhere. You name Emrakul, you get all of them no matter where they are. If there are any in hand they get to draw to replace them. You unconditionally get to take a whole playlet from their library. And on top of that it has the flexibility of letting you get rid of dead cards if need be. Its only actually bad if they have multiples in hand.
Extraction effects isn't new and this one lets your opponent draw cards for each card removed from the hand, huge downside. So why is this seen as so good?
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This has got to be one of the worst topics I've read in some time.
Lost Legacy has been printed in multiple forms numerous times throughout magic's history. The fact this allows your opponent to finally get card advantage after you cast it actually makes this worse in most cases compared to other versions. I would like to point out also, in standard the chance of you drawing 4 of a certain card at the same time is approximately 1 in 540,000... good luck on drawing them 4 cards.
I would like to also point out the whole relentless rats lost legacy deck has already been done.... much much cheaper with shadowborn apostles, extirpate and surgical extraction. The deck isnt very good, but it is modern legal.
The fact people with multiple thousands of posts are so bad at reading the card is a bit insane. This will be a decent sideboard card as it always has been in the past, nothing more and nothing less.
Kambal, on the other hand, seems to be getting almost completely ignored. Kambal is a house, at the very least it will likely be a 4 point life swing in life, and in other instances can mean it being removed over a 'more threatening' target, 8+ life swings, or even ending a game against a control player.
I love Kambal, however I don't think he'll see much play in BW control builds against other control decks, more often than not it will just eat small creature removal and a 2-life drain isn't that great in such matchups. On the other hand, in decks that can put pressure with creatures early on, his trigger ability becomes a much more serious threat when backed up by more attackers.
I really don't follow Legacy but if Kambal manages to stick around combo decks, especially Storm-based ones, they are as good as dead.
Lost Legacy is good, Extraction effects pretty much always see play as SB cards versus certain strategies. A little card disadvantage in exchange of eliminating the possibility of an Emrakul is an acceptable risk in many situations.
I noticed no one mentioned Lost Legacy is very similar to Vendilian Clique(card taken from hand draws them a card). Clique is definitely better because it leaves a 3/1 flying body at flash speed but the fact this thing can hit instant/sorceries/enchantments is insane: Especially if the only thing that can beat you is a sweeper or particular spell.
This is nothing like clique. Clique let's you look at their hand and remove the best card. This one maybe hits something in their hand if you are lucky, and even when it does they still get to draw a card for it. It is always pure card disadvantage for the one casting the Legacy.
I really don't get why people feel this is an awesome card, isn't it pretty much a pretty bad extraction-effect?
No its not bad. You get the cards from anywhere. You name Emrakul, you get all of them no matter where they are. If there are any in hand they get to draw to replace them. You unconditionally get to take a whole playlet from their library. And on top of that it has the flexibility of letting you get rid of dead cards if need be. Its only actually bad if they have multiples in hand.
Extraction effects isn't new and this one lets your opponent draw cards for each card removed from the hand, huge downside. So why is this seen as so good?
Lobotomy you can only choose from their hand. If you know what kind of deck their playing but want to name a staple (gout, siege rhino, lightning bolt whatever) you can't unless it's in their hand.
Pick the brain needs delirium and has the same problem as lobotomy. Stain the mind never saw play because you tend to want tend to want to extract then attack once it's safe, making the convoke awkward. Slaughter Games needs a second color but was good during the time in standard when counter magic was kinds decent. Thought hemorrhage just a damage bonus and needs red too.
To be honest this whole "omg they get to draw cards!" Crap is kinda dumb. So what? It isn't a lot of cards. Vendilion Clique and Thought-knot seer timed right is a kick in the balls.
Hell there is the best case scenario, they don't have it in their hands and you just nuked their win con. Worse case I guess would be if they have all freaking 4 copies in their hand but I don't mind if it's some serious threat that I don't want to deal with.
As for Kambal... I love him. Although there should be some anti creature hate bear somewhere. soul barrier on a dude would be awesome.
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
Actually, this is going to be a dedicated Stax build. "Oh, you want to counter/wrath/bounce/ramp? Add a 4 point swing to that"
Stax means resource denial... 40 life is kind of hard to restrict in a meaningful way
Uh, what? STax is not just resource denial, it's taxation as well, which is exactly what he does. Tacking a 2 life drain to every non-creature spell(Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Rampant Growth, any non-creature artifact, wreaths, etc.) as early as turn 2, is pretty nice. It stifles a lot of spell slinger strategies that play fast and loose with life totals. Combine that with extort triggers, ETB gains/Drains (Soul Sisters), your actual Stax pieces like Winter Orb and Smoke Stack, and it just slow deaths your opponents. You could argue the RTR ghost council does this better by dodging removal, but casting is higher, and more difficult.
I noticed no one mentioned Lost Legacy is very similar to Vendilian Clique(card taken from hand draws them a card). Clique is definitely better because it leaves a 3/1 flying body at flash speed but the fact this thing can hit instant/sorceries/enchantments is insane: Especially if the only thing that can beat you is a sweeper or particular spell.
This is nothing like clique. Clique let's you look at their hand and remove the best card. This one maybe hits something in their hand if you are lucky, and even when it does they still get to draw a card for it. It is always pure card disadvantage for the one casting the Legacy.
I really don't get why people feel this is an awesome card, isn't it pretty much a pretty bad extraction-effect?
No its not bad. You get the cards from anywhere. You name Emrakul, you get all of them no matter where they are. If there are any in hand they get to draw to replace them. You unconditionally get to take a whole playlet from their library. And on top of that it has the flexibility of letting you get rid of dead cards if need be. Its only actually bad if they have multiples in hand.
Extraction effects isn't new and this one lets your opponent draw cards for each card removed from the hand, huge downside. So why is this seen as so good?
Lost Legacy is also 3 CMC. Outside of Lobotomy, none of those cards are cheaper than 4. The draw effect a vast majority of the time is going to be 1 at most which is more than worth it to remove problem cards game 2/3 in any format. This could be ramped to cast turn 1 in some formats.
Stax is a nickname for Smokestack. The card that truly introduced the archetype to the game. Stax is about ressource denial. Not life payment.
I see you didn't read the entire post, thanks!
For reference, from the Stax primer on this very site-
Stax is a term used to describe a deck strategy that mostly relies on resource denial, taxing effects, disruption, and sacrifice enablers to potentially lock down opponents and make it difficult to cast spells, play creatures, attack, breath, sleep, and/or have any kind of reliable board state. The goal is to build your Rube Goldberg contraption of denial as fast and efficiently as possible thus allowing you to set up your win cons unopposed. Stax decks use a inefficient = efficient mentality when it comes to the game of Magic the Gathering. What this means is you're turning cards that normally would hinder everyone work to your advantage. A simple example is playing Winter Orb when you have a stronger presence of alternative mana production. This allows you to play through such effects more efficiently than your opponents.
Thank you for the quote. You just proved our point.
They actually mention nothing of any kind of life payment.
Ressource denial: Discard, land destruction, sacrifice permanents. Examples are Thoughtseize, Sinkhole and Smokestack.
Taxing: Mana payment. Examples are The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Ghostly Prison and Kataki, Wars Wage.
Disruption: Creature removal, other permanent removal. Examples: Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay.
Sacrifice enablers: More of the above.
So you see no where does Stax refer to any kind of life drain. In fact they also close out with this to make sure you don't misunderstand:
"Lock down opponents to make it difficult to cast spells, play creatures, attack"
And to be 100 % sure:
"Thus allowing you to set up your win cons unopposed."
Case and point.
Case in point, you are all bent on the fact that I said I wanted to build him as a Stax general, not that he is a Stax piece. His gain/drain is a tax on non-creature spells, it plays directly into that archetype, and is in one of the best color combinations to accomplish that. "Making harder to cast spells", my quote- "Punishes Spell slingers who play fast and loose with life totals.", which means, "Harder to cast spells", no?
So, keep getting all bent out of shape on how I want to build my deck. The only thing you proved is, well, nothing, except jumping to irrelevant conclusions.
i've never seen someone miss so entirely what stax is.
kambal is good overall with a early hitting relevant effect.
lost legacy is a 1 or 2 of in sideboard, nothing more.
Is that a typo on Lost Legacy on the last line, "from hand"? Shouldn't it be "from his or her hand"?
Nope, but you did spot something there. This is clearly another tweak on templating designed to save space, and it does. There's been other ones recently.
OOOOOOOOOOOOR this is a templating tweak designed to remove some of the gender-based elements of Magic templating. (For the record, I did alwyas see 'his or her' as, yes, being a very unnecessary waste of space.)
Either way, the outcome is the same and an improvement because it saves space, allowing for slightly more wordy/complex effects.
Like all the others, I would expect the change will become standard practice going forward. No more 'his or her'.
I find it a terrible choice of wording. My money is on this being the same ***** as happened with dwarves. There's someone (or someones) in templating that really, really loathes gender-neutral their and has done everything in their power to ensure it's never on a magic card. When this/those person eventually leaves, we will see "their hand" and similar wording pop up across Multiverse, and sooner than later.
Kambal is like my new favorite thing. I almost want to replace Karlov with him as my general, but I know he would get WAY too much hate in group play. I want to make a 1v1 deck with him but I already have two BW EDH decks.
This has got to be one of the worst topics I've read in some time.
Lost Legacy has been printed in multiple forms numerous times throughout magic's history. The fact this allows your opponent to finally get card advantage after you cast it actually makes this worse in most cases compared to other versions. I would like to point out also, in standard the chance of you drawing 4 of a certain card at the same time is approximately 1 in 540,000... good luck on drawing them 4 cards.
I would like to also point out the whole relentless rats lost legacy deck has already been done.... much much cheaper with shadowborn apostles, extirpate and surgical extraction. The deck isnt very good, but it is modern legal.
The fact people with multiple thousands of posts are so bad at reading the card is a bit insane. This will be a decent sideboard card as it always has been in the past, nothing more and nothing less.
Kambal, on the other hand, seems to be getting almost completely ignored. Kambal is a house, at the very least it will likely be a 4 point life swing in life, and in other instances can mean it being removed over a 'more threatening' target, 8+ life swings, or even ending a game against a control player.
I like Kambal because he's a somewhat decent & cheap Commander you can fly under the radar with. Nobody is going to target you immediately just because of your commander, which can be nice.
I noticed no one mentioned Lost Legacy is very similar to Vendilian Clique(card taken from hand draws them a card). Clique is definitely better because it leaves a 3/1 flying body at flash speed but the fact this thing can hit instant/sorceries/enchantments is insane: Especially if the only thing that can beat you is a sweeper or particular spell.
This is nothing like clique. Clique let's you look at their hand and remove the best card. This one maybe hits something in their hand if you are lucky, and even when it does they still get to draw a card for it. It is always pure card disadvantage for the one casting the Legacy.
I really don't get why people feel this is an awesome card, isn't it pretty much a pretty bad extraction-effect?
No its not bad. You get the cards from anywhere. You name Emrakul, you get all of them no matter where they are. If there are any in hand they get to draw to replace them. You unconditionally get to take a whole playlet from their library. And on top of that it has the flexibility of letting you get rid of dead cards if need be. Its only actually bad if they have multiples in hand.
Extraction effects isn't new and this one lets your opponent draw cards for each card removed from the hand, huge downside. So why is this seen as so good?
1) 3 mana is a huge upside
2) them replacing the cards you strip from their hand isn't a huge downside
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Ive played a BW punisher/extort deck for a while now with Athreos at the helm, but Kambal is instantly going to replace him. I'm betting he does see competitive play though, he does come down pretty hard on Burn decks and combo decks.
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But seriously, this thing is sweet.
I didn't imply otherwise, I never said who was casting the spell or who was the target, just that cards are not drawn from exiling from the grave and deck. I should have clarified.
This is nothing like clique. Clique let's you look at their hand and remove the best card. This one maybe hits something in their hand if you are lucky, and even when it does they still get to draw a card for it. It is always pure card disadvantage for the one casting the Legacy.
I really don't get why people feel this is an awesome card, isn't it pretty much a pretty bad extraction-effect?
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Stax means resource denial... 40 life is kind of hard to restrict in a meaningful way
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No its not bad. You get the cards from anywhere. You name Emrakul, you get all of them no matter where they are. If there are any in hand they get to draw to replace them. You unconditionally get to take a whole playlet from their library. And on top of that it has the flexibility of letting you get rid of dead cards if need be. Its only actually bad if they have multiples in hand.
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Legacy
GG Aggro Elves GG
You're right in that I misread the card. I thought you looked at the hand first then proceeded. I love they replaced inf obliteration with a cool variant and not just reprinted it. It may end up being better or worse. I'm leaning towards better because it can hit that one card you just can't beat. Chances are it's not an artifact. B/W or U/B control naming Coco. Even though Coco is leaving, this card will def see play. It has upside on Inf Obliteration and is bad in the same areas inf obliteration is. Against a mono white humans deck, burn deck, anything where the deck has alot of redundancies but hoses decks with few payoff cards.
Yeah, you get the cards form anywhere. So? Isn't this just yet another extraction effect along the lines of Cranial Extraction? This new one is 1 cmc cheaper but harder to cast, more conditional and lets them draw cards.
Lobotomy let's you see their hand before naming a card, huge.
Memoricide, Pick the Brain, Slaughter Games, Stain the Mind, Thought Hemmorhage.
Extraction effects isn't new and this one lets your opponent draw cards for each card removed from the hand, huge downside. So why is this seen as so good?
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Seems like it'd be a really good sideboard card.
Lost Legacy has been printed in multiple forms numerous times throughout magic's history. The fact this allows your opponent to finally get card advantage after you cast it actually makes this worse in most cases compared to other versions. I would like to point out also, in standard the chance of you drawing 4 of a certain card at the same time is approximately 1 in 540,000... good luck on drawing them 4 cards.
I would like to also point out the whole relentless rats lost legacy deck has already been done.... much much cheaper with shadowborn apostles, extirpate and surgical extraction. The deck isnt very good, but it is modern legal.
The fact people with multiple thousands of posts are so bad at reading the card is a bit insane. This will be a decent sideboard card as it always has been in the past, nothing more and nothing less.
Kambal, on the other hand, seems to be getting almost completely ignored. Kambal is a house, at the very least it will likely be a 4 point life swing in life, and in other instances can mean it being removed over a 'more threatening' target, 8+ life swings, or even ending a game against a control player.
I really don't follow Legacy but if Kambal manages to stick around combo decks, especially Storm-based ones, they are as good as dead.
Lost Legacy is good, Extraction effects pretty much always see play as SB cards versus certain strategies. A little card disadvantage in exchange of eliminating the possibility of an Emrakul is an acceptable risk in many situations.
Lobotomy you can only choose from their hand. If you know what kind of deck their playing but want to name a staple (gout, siege rhino, lightning bolt whatever) you can't unless it's in their hand.
Pick the brain needs delirium and has the same problem as lobotomy. Stain the mind never saw play because you tend to want tend to want to extract then attack once it's safe, making the convoke awkward. Slaughter Games needs a second color but was good during the time in standard when counter magic was kinds decent. Thought hemorrhage just a damage bonus and needs red too.
To be honest this whole "omg they get to draw cards!" Crap is kinda dumb. So what? It isn't a lot of cards. Vendilion Clique and Thought-knot seer timed right is a kick in the balls.
Hell there is the best case scenario, they don't have it in their hands and you just nuked their win con. Worse case I guess would be if they have all freaking 4 copies in their hand but I don't mind if it's some serious threat that I don't want to deal with.
As for Kambal... I love him. Although there should be some anti creature hate bear somewhere. soul barrier on a dude would be awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
Uh, what? STax is not just resource denial, it's taxation as well, which is exactly what he does. Tacking a 2 life drain to every non-creature spell(Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Rampant Growth, any non-creature artifact, wreaths, etc.) as early as turn 2, is pretty nice. It stifles a lot of spell slinger strategies that play fast and loose with life totals. Combine that with extort triggers, ETB gains/Drains (Soul Sisters), your actual Stax pieces like Winter Orb and Smoke Stack, and it just slow deaths your opponents. You could argue the RTR ghost council does this better by dodging removal, but casting is higher, and more difficult.
Lost Legacy is also 3 CMC. Outside of Lobotomy, none of those cards are cheaper than 4. The draw effect a vast majority of the time is going to be 1 at most which is more than worth it to remove problem cards game 2/3 in any format. This could be ramped to cast turn 1 in some formats.
I see you didn't read the entire post, thanks!
For reference, from the Stax primer on this very site-
Again, "Stax is about resource denial", uh, what?
Modern: UB Zombie hunt UB - WR Boros tokens WR - BGW Treefolk tribal BGW
Commander: UR Mizzix, a Storm of spells UR (Decklist)
Case in point, you are all bent on the fact that I said I wanted to build him as a Stax general, not that he is a Stax piece. His gain/drain is a tax on non-creature spells, it plays directly into that archetype, and is in one of the best color combinations to accomplish that. "Making harder to cast spells", my quote- "Punishes Spell slingers who play fast and loose with life totals.", which means, "Harder to cast spells", no?
So, keep getting all bent out of shape on how I want to build my deck. The only thing you proved is, well, nothing, except jumping to irrelevant conclusions.
kambal is good overall with a early hitting relevant effect.
lost legacy is a 1 or 2 of in sideboard, nothing more.
I find it a terrible choice of wording. My money is on this being the same ***** as happened with dwarves. There's someone (or someones) in templating that really, really loathes gender-neutral their and has done everything in their power to ensure it's never on a magic card. When this/those person eventually leaves, we will see "their hand" and similar wording pop up across Multiverse, and sooner than later.
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Agree with all of this.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
1) 3 mana is a huge upside
2) them replacing the cards you strip from their hand isn't a huge downside
He seems really good for Standard, maybe even Modern,
but he seems kinda durdly for EDH.
Better Infinite Obliteration is going to elicit many interjections.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW