Black Removal is at the weakest it's ever been relative to what needs to be removed right now.
... that's interesting. I think it's right exactly where it needs to be, and quite a bit farther ahead than red is. Black is certainly the best colour for hard removal (although Reflector Mage is a better choice pretty much all around while not a hard removal.)
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I can't imagine very many decks playing this that aren't also playing Liliana, which pushes this up to killing anything with 4 toughness. I've always found incidental lifegain on cards like this to be a nice thing as well.
Based on what we've seen of Kaladesh so far (granted, that's not much), there are a lot of creatures sitting at 3 toughness (or up to 3 toughness, in the case of two of the Fabricate creatures): Aetherstorm Roc, Gonti, Depala, Rashmi, Fleetwheel Cruiser, etc. If that trend continues, Extraction should have a lot of viable targets. (And the rest of Standard offers Reflector Mage, Spell Queller, and Sylvan Advocate, for starters.)
It doesn't hit players because Black gets creature drain, and it gets player drain, but it very rarely gets both on one card these days: there's only one Black, (and non-Red) card in Standard that can hit both, and it's a mythic. It's not off-color pie, but it's definitely not the default for Black spells. (In theory, that's to differentiate it from Red, but Red's been slacking a bit on that front lately.)
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"The true measure of all heroes is not what they achieve, but who they inspire." —Triumph of Gerrard
Clearly you have no concept of black's history in magic's color pie. Grasp of darkness at 1B one could argue is a little OP but at BB, it's perfectly costed. Was Doom Blade a Mistake. How about Terror. Go for the Throat? Murderous Cut. Ultimate Price? Disfigure. If Grasp was a mistake then the color black in MTG was a mistake.
I'm speaking for the current Standard - not for all of magic's history. I recognize some people play Modern and other formats - but Wizards has very clearly stated they design for Standard first.
Throttle being printed in SOI is the basis by which I believe Grasp of Darkness was a mistake. I expect that the rationale is that it will be the replacement when Grasp rotates out. Grasp feels like it should have been a Sorcery at that cost.
Comparing it to Doom Blade is apples and oranges (okay - oranges and tangerines) while both are removal, -toughness is strictly better than destroy in most cases because destroy can't do anything to things that are indestructible. Having 0 toughness pretty much kills any creature.
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They couldn't have made this cost two mana? I'd rather play Grasp of Darkness and Murder.
Because Grasp of Darkness was a mistake and way undercosted. The exact same effect in SOI costs twice as much.
It's good in the Ally lifegain deck - sometimes I wish Alms of the Vein hits creatures. This does.
You're confusing limited balance with Standard balance. Throttle is not intended as the baseline for black removal. If Grasp was a mistake, they wouldn't have just reprinted it in Oath of the Gatewatch. Note though that they moved it up to uncommon - they've moved hard/cheap removal up in rarity to uncommon to affect draft, while leaving Standard unchanged.
The bigger problem with black removal is just that they keep giving such strong removal to white.
good enough card. not bonkers or anything, but i can see that in my B/W Control Sideboard vs aggressive Strategies. Removal+Lifegain was always good in Standard in the last few years.
good enough card. not bonkers or anything, but i can see that in my B/W Control Sideboard vs aggressive Strategies. Removal+Lifegain was always good in Standard in the last few years.
Yeah, I could see that. I suppose this combined with Alms of the vein compliment each other. Would have been super cool if it had the option "You may discard a card" to play this with alms of the vein for 4 mana. For 3 mana though this could have been a sorcery murder with life gain. With ultimate price rotating, i think we'll get a good 2 mana kill spell. Again, i still say terror would be fine. I say go for the throat would be fine but some may see it as a bit OP unless we get more really good artifact creatures(green already was revealed to have one).
They couldn't have made this cost two mana? I'd rather play Grasp of Darkness and Murder.
Because Grasp of Darkness was a mistake and way undercosted. The exact same effect in SOI costs twice as much.
It's good in the Ally lifegain deck - sometimes I wish Alms of the Vein hits creatures. This does.
Black is the killing color, it needs efficient removal. Considering white has Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Condemn, Sunlance, Declaration in Stone, etc it shouldn't be too hard to ask that this at least cost BB.
Clearly you have no concept of black's history in magic's color pie. Grasp of darkness at 1B one could argue is a little OP but at BB, it's perfectly costed. Was Doom Blade a Mistake. How about Terror. Go for the Throat? Murderous Cut. Ultimate Price? Disfigure. If Grasp was a mistake then the color black in MTG was a mistake.
I'm speaking for the current Standard - not for all of magic's history. I recognize some people play Modern and other formats - but Wizards has very clearly stated they design for Standard first.
Throttle being printed in SOI is the basis by which I believe Grasp of Darkness was a mistake. I expect that the rationale is that it will be the replacement when Grasp rotates out. Grasp feels like it should have been a Sorcery at that cost.
Comparing it to Doom Blade is apples and oranges (okay - oranges and tangerines) while both are removal, -toughness is strictly better than destroy in most cases because destroy can't do anything to things that are indestructible. Having 0 toughness pretty much kills any creature.
Throttle is a card that was never designed to be played outside of Limited. The day Throttle is the black staple removal spell in Standard is the day I never play standard again.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
Clearly you have no concept of black's history in magic's color pie. Grasp of darkness at 1B one could argue is a little OP but at BB, it's perfectly costed. Was Doom Blade a Mistake. How about Terror. Go for the Throat? Murderous Cut. Ultimate Price? Disfigure. If Grasp was a mistake then the color black in MTG was a mistake.
I'm speaking for the current Standard - not for all of magic's history. I recognize some people play Modern and other formats - but Wizards has very clearly stated they design for Standard first.
Throttle being printed in SOI is the basis by which I believe Grasp of Darkness was a mistake. I expect that the rationale is that it will be the replacement when Grasp rotates out. Grasp feels like it should have been a Sorcery at that cost.
Comparing it to Doom Blade is apples and oranges (okay - oranges and tangerines) while both are removal, -toughness is strictly better than destroy in most cases because destroy can't do anything to things that are indestructible. Having 0 toughness pretty much kills any creature.
A) Throttle was printed exclusively to be played in a Limited environment. No one ever expects it to see Standard play.
B) When Grasp of Darkness was also first printed in Scars of Mirrodin, no one played it outside of limited either because of how bonkers black removal was at the time.
Your assertion that "toughness is strictly better than destroy in most cases" is also ridiculous, and proven false by history. Grasp of Darkness shared standard environments with the likes of Doom Blade and Go for the Throat. Even before Dismember was printed, no one played Grasp of Darkness in Standard, and when Dismember was printed, it saw play because of the fact that it used Phyrexian Mana and could thus be played at both a reduced cost and in any color deck, not because "-/- is better than destroy."
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Black is the killing color, it needs efficient removal. Considering white has Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Condemn, Sunlance, Declaration in Stone, etc it shouldn't be too hard to ask that this at least cost BB.
The only one of those you mentioned that is relevant to this discussion is Declaration in Stone - since my point is specifically about Standard. All the others share the same environment with Doom Blade (and probably other cards - I don't play Modern so I have no idea anything about that format)
Declaration in Stone not only exiles instead of kills (which is a very white effect) but it also has a drawback when it comes to non-token creatures because it gives clues. Removing a bunch of creatures all at once is a very white effect (Planar Outburst comes to mind) It is also a sorcery, not an instant. (I believe I said previously that I could easily see BB for a sorcery version of Grasp of Darkness)
Murder is plenty efficient for an instant-speed broad removal. Grasp of Darkness would be 'right' as a sorcery, or costing 1 or 2 more at instant (which is still cheaper than Throttle, which I agree is overcosted)
Your assertion that "toughness is strictly better than destroy in most cases" is also ridiculous, and proven false by history. Grasp of Darkness shared standard environments with the likes of Doom Blade and Go for the Throat. Even before Dismember was printed, no one played Grasp of Darkness in Standard, and when Dismember was printed, it saw play because of the fact that it used Phyrexian Mana and could thus be played at both a reduced cost and in any color deck, not because "-/- is better than destroy."
Tell me, did that Standard environment you refer to (in and around Scars of Mirrodin block) have mass indestructable effects like Archangel Avacyn or Selfless Spirit? I have no idea - this is an honest question! Archangel Avacyn and Selfless Spirit are the reasons why -4/-4 is better than destroy in the current Standard.
Black is the killing color, it needs efficient removal. Considering white has Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Condemn, Sunlance, Declaration in Stone, etc it shouldn't be too hard to ask that this at least cost BB.
The only one of those you mentioned that is relevant to this discussion is Declaration in Stone - since my point is specifically about Standard. All the others share the same environment with Doom Blade (and probably other cards - I don't play Modern so I have no idea anything about that format)
Declaration in Stone not only exiles instead of kills (which is a very white effect) but it also has a drawback when it comes to non-token creatures because it gives clues. Removing a bunch of creatures all at once is a very white effect (Planar Outburst comes to mind) It is also a sorcery, not an instant. (I believe I said previously that I could easily see BB for a sorcery version of Grasp of Darkness)
Murder is plenty efficient for an instant-speed broad removal. Grasp of Darkness would be 'right' as a sorcery, or costing 1 or 2 more at instant (which is still cheaper than Throttle, which I agree is overcosted)
Doesn't matter if it's in standard or not. These cards were in standard at some point. Even if Declaration in Stone hits one creature it's still really good. White shouldn't get unconditional undercosted removal with a slight drawback when black is the killing color. Black needs a removal spell on the level as Ghastly Demise. Commander got a double Doom Blade costing BB if a creature died that turn, that card should have seen a standard reprint. And I don't really care to argue that we should have gotten a card better than Sorin's Thirst. The spoiled card is just plain bad. I don't care if the standard is supposed to have a lower power level.
Doesn't matter if it's in standard or not. These cards were in standard at some point. Even if Declaration in Stone hits one creature it's still really good. White shouldn't get unconditional undercosted removal with a slight drawback when black is the killing color. Black needs a removal spell on the level as Ghastly Demise. Commander got a double Doom Blade costing BB if a creature died that turn, that card should have seen a standard reprint. And I don't really care to argue that we should have gotten a card better than Sorin's Thirst. The spoiled card is just plain bad. I don't care if the standard is supposed to have a lower power level.
Standard balance is the only relevant format when it comes to sets printed for Standard (the core line) because Wizards has said that Standard is their primary product and that they rarely make cards that specifically target Modern playability - especially now that they've removed Modern from the pro tour lineup. Wizard's conception of what is balanced has changed since most of the cards you mention were printed.
I do find it odd that you consider Declaration in Stone as being 'good' given that Modern has Path of Exile, which is both cheaper and an instant. It feels as though you are arguing two different sides just for the sake of arguing. Given that Grasp is already instant and hits most relevant early threats (and nearly all threats when paired with Liliana) I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.
I guess we can agree to disagree - out perspectives differ. I guess you are looking at Modern and I am looking at Standard and thus our opinions are different for that reason. (The reason I presume you are talking about Modern is because you say that black needs a spell like Ghastly Demise - a card from Odessy. We won't see Ghastly Demise any more than we'll see Counterspell)
They couldn't have made this cost two mana? I'd rather play Grasp of Darkness and Murder.
If it cost 2 mana, it would essentially be a monocolor Lighting Helix for black control decks. I personally would be fine with that, but I can see why Wizards would be concerned.
... that's interesting. I think it's right exactly where it needs to be, and quite a bit farther ahead than red is. Black is certainly the best colour for hard removal (although Reflector Mage is a better choice pretty much all around while not a hard removal.)
It doesn't hit players because Black gets creature drain, and it gets player drain, but it very rarely gets both on one card these days: there's only one Black, (and non-Red) card in Standard that can hit both, and it's a mythic. It's not off-color pie, but it's definitely not the default for Black spells. (In theory, that's to differentiate it from Red, but Red's been slacking a bit on that front lately.)
I'm speaking for the current Standard - not for all of magic's history. I recognize some people play Modern and other formats - but Wizards has very clearly stated they design for Standard first.
Throttle being printed in SOI is the basis by which I believe Grasp of Darkness was a mistake. I expect that the rationale is that it will be the replacement when Grasp rotates out. Grasp feels like it should have been a Sorcery at that cost.
Comparing it to Doom Blade is apples and oranges (okay - oranges and tangerines) while both are removal, -toughness is strictly better than destroy in most cases because destroy can't do anything to things that are indestructible. Having 0 toughness pretty much kills any creature.
You're confusing limited balance with Standard balance. Throttle is not intended as the baseline for black removal. If Grasp was a mistake, they wouldn't have just reprinted it in Oath of the Gatewatch. Note though that they moved it up to uncommon - they've moved hard/cheap removal up in rarity to uncommon to affect draft, while leaving Standard unchanged.
The bigger problem with black removal is just that they keep giving such strong removal to white.
Yeah, I could see that. I suppose this combined with Alms of the vein compliment each other. Would have been super cool if it had the option "You may discard a card" to play this with alms of the vein for 4 mana. For 3 mana though this could have been a sorcery murder with life gain. With ultimate price rotating, i think we'll get a good 2 mana kill spell. Again, i still say terror would be fine. I say go for the throat would be fine but some may see it as a bit OP unless we get more really good artifact creatures(green already was revealed to have one).
Black is the killing color, it needs efficient removal. Considering white has Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Condemn, Sunlance, Declaration in Stone, etc it shouldn't be too hard to ask that this at least cost BB.
Throttle is a card that was never designed to be played outside of Limited. The day Throttle is the black staple removal spell in Standard is the day I never play standard again.
Has anyone looked at the stats here?
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A) Throttle was printed exclusively to be played in a Limited environment. No one ever expects it to see Standard play.
B) When Grasp of Darkness was also first printed in Scars of Mirrodin, no one played it outside of limited either because of how bonkers black removal was at the time.
Your assertion that "toughness is strictly better than destroy in most cases" is also ridiculous, and proven false by history. Grasp of Darkness shared standard environments with the likes of Doom Blade and Go for the Throat. Even before Dismember was printed, no one played Grasp of Darkness in Standard, and when Dismember was printed, it saw play because of the fact that it used Phyrexian Mana and could thus be played at both a reduced cost and in any color deck, not because "-/- is better than destroy."
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
At BB you get Vicious Hunger.
On phasing:
The only one of those you mentioned that is relevant to this discussion is Declaration in Stone - since my point is specifically about Standard. All the others share the same environment with Doom Blade (and probably other cards - I don't play Modern so I have no idea anything about that format)
Declaration in Stone not only exiles instead of kills (which is a very white effect) but it also has a drawback when it comes to non-token creatures because it gives clues. Removing a bunch of creatures all at once is a very white effect (Planar Outburst comes to mind) It is also a sorcery, not an instant. (I believe I said previously that I could easily see BB for a sorcery version of Grasp of Darkness)
Murder is plenty efficient for an instant-speed broad removal. Grasp of Darkness would be 'right' as a sorcery, or costing 1 or 2 more at instant (which is still cheaper than Throttle, which I agree is overcosted)
Tell me, did that Standard environment you refer to (in and around Scars of Mirrodin block) have mass indestructable effects like Archangel Avacyn or Selfless Spirit? I have no idea - this is an honest question! Archangel Avacyn and Selfless Spirit are the reasons why -4/-4 is better than destroy in the current Standard.
Doesn't matter if it's in standard or not. These cards were in standard at some point. Even if Declaration in Stone hits one creature it's still really good. White shouldn't get unconditional undercosted removal with a slight drawback when black is the killing color. Black needs a removal spell on the level as Ghastly Demise. Commander got a double Doom Blade costing BB if a creature died that turn, that card should have seen a standard reprint. And I don't really care to argue that we should have gotten a card better than Sorin's Thirst. The spoiled card is just plain bad. I don't care if the standard is supposed to have a lower power level.
Standard balance is the only relevant format when it comes to sets printed for Standard (the core line) because Wizards has said that Standard is their primary product and that they rarely make cards that specifically target Modern playability - especially now that they've removed Modern from the pro tour lineup. Wizard's conception of what is balanced has changed since most of the cards you mention were printed.
I do find it odd that you consider Declaration in Stone as being 'good' given that Modern has Path of Exile, which is both cheaper and an instant. It feels as though you are arguing two different sides just for the sake of arguing. Given that Grasp is already instant and hits most relevant early threats (and nearly all threats when paired with Liliana) I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.
I guess we can agree to disagree - out perspectives differ. I guess you are looking at Modern and I am looking at Standard and thus our opinions are different for that reason. (The reason I presume you are talking about Modern is because you say that black needs a spell like Ghastly Demise - a card from Odessy. We won't see Ghastly Demise any more than we'll see Counterspell)
If it cost 2 mana, it would essentially be a monocolor Lighting Helix for black control decks. I personally would be fine with that, but I can see why Wizards would be concerned.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Pharika's Cure gives you instant speed.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control